I've been around RTS's for awhile, but never enough to get seriously competitive. Now that I'm getting curb stomped 80% of the time in SC2, I want to try and hone my skill.
What would you say is the most important element to high level play? Is it having a specific build order (I find myself throwing buildings down without any real timing)? Is it unit micro? Is it macro? When is the best time to scout (too early and you get nothing and maybe lose a worker, too late and you get nothing)?
I play as much as I can, and I watch videos of high level play, but sometimes I feel that isn't helping me much. The pros don't waste cash on tons of static def because they can micro their units around much more easily than me. They have different build orders because they can make their units count much more than I can.
I know I may be asking a lot, but if anyone could just give me their personal opinion of what I should focus on to get better, I would greatly appreciate it!
1. Control group your command center/hatchery/nexus and always pump workers until you have around 30 per each base. You may need to stop worker production for special occasion, but that's for high level player.
2. Control group your production buildings and always pump some units, in fact ANY units, at all time. Any unit is better than no unit.
3. Always look at your supply count and add supplies as needed. You should do this whenever you are producing units.
4. If you have extra resources even though you are continuously pumping units, build more production buildings or expand.
5. Congrats, you just mastered the art of macro! Now go micro all your units while you're doing all these macro, and also don't ever stop thinking during the game about the strategies and counter-moves. Good luck! =)
There is no "secret", there are no tricks that make you good. It is a combination of -Talent -HUGE amounts of work. [i.e analyzing, general thinking, playing often all at the same time]
Practice things you are having problems with. That's all you can really do.
Like other people said. Practice NOT watching fights AT ALL unless you are ACTIVELY microing, you should be watching your production facilities all the time make sure they're making units. Most bad players will watch units for upwards of a minute and then make 5 additional barracks because they were not using the current ones.
The most important thing you can focus on is practicing in general. When you lose a game, think it over. It's not necessary to review the replay (although you can) - determine why you lost, and improve upon that next game.
There is a certain amount of talent that some people simply have and some people don't, but it's best to focus on what you can fix rather than limiting factors outside your control. Indeed, the worst thing you can do for yourself is blame your losses on things like their race or unit combo being OP, them being cheesers, or that they play the game too much. Try to find out what YOU can do better and do so.
If you want to be really really good, follow all the advice here and practice. Practice practice practice. Do one build against one race until you can use that build to adapt to any threat, and then start learning more builds. Another thing you can do is watch day[9]'s daily casts, the day[9] dailies. If you can't catch them, you can watch the VODs later by going to his stream and choosing one.
The sign of an active forum: 250 views and 6 replies inside of ten minutes
Thank you for the responses everyone! I realize that there is no "magic pill" to getting better. But the game can seem at some times mysterious when the loss of one worker can set you irretrievably behind.
I know one of my main flaws is not making enough workers. I just get caught between two walls. I queue up lots of units at a building to spare my attention (because I will fall behind if I don't send out SOME kind of attacks), and then I have less money for other tasks.
Another question: When I am building my base, should I try and cover all the tech tree? I feel like this could help me tech switch if my opponent uses one build or another, building so much with so little production really sets my back. For example with terrans I will build racks and then rush to get medivacs. But then I'll try and build factories and more starports with tech labs to be ready. At some point in the game that has got to be viable, right?
On May 08 2010 11:25 uberdeluxe wrote: Another thing you can do is watch day[9]'s daily casts, the day[9] dailies. If you can't catch them, you can watch the VODs later by going to his stream and choosing one.
Do you think you could link to where I can find those? I was unable to locate them on youtube, if that is where they are.
On May 08 2010 11:34 InternetNinja wrote: The sign of an active forum: 250 views and 6 replies inside of ten minutes
Thank you for the responses everyone! I realize that there is no "magic pill" to getting better. But the game can seem at some times mysterious when the loss of one worker can set you irretrievably behind.
I know one of my main flaws is not making enough workers. I just get caught between two walls. I queue up lots of units at a building to spare my attention (because I will fall behind if I don't send out SOME kind of attacks), and then I have less money for other tasks.
Another question: When I am building my base, should I try and cover all the tech tree? I feel like this could help me tech switch if my opponent uses one build or another, building so much with so little production really sets my back. For example with terrans I will build racks and then rush to get medivacs. But then I'll try and build factories and more starports with tech labs to be ready. At some point in the game that has got to be viable, right?
On May 08 2010 11:25 uberdeluxe wrote: Another thing you can do is watch day[9]'s daily casts, the day[9] dailies. If you can't catch them, you can watch the VODs later by going to his stream and choosing one.
Do you think you could link to where I can find those? I was unable to locate them on youtube, if that is where they are.
the times are located on the teamliquid calendar. only get the parts of the tech tree you need, you should be able to counter your opponent's tech without completing your own, in fact its best to get minimal tech to defend, tech advantages are only really good for offense, since if you use them defensively they can just withdraw.
On May 08 2010 11:18 Slayer91 wrote: Like other people said. Practice NOT watching fights AT ALL unless you are ACTIVELY microing, you should be watching your production facilities all the time make sure they're making units. Most bad players will watch units for upwards of a minute and then make 5 additional barracks because they were not using the current ones.
I saw this problem when I was trying to teach my dorm-mates SC1. They would watch fights until it's over. But after a month's practice of NOT watching fights AT ALL, their macro was decent enough to stomp noobs.
On May 08 2010 11:09 InternetNinja wrote: What would you say is the most important element to high level play? Is it having a specific build order (I find myself throwing buildings down without any real timing)? Is it unit micro? Is it macro? When is the best time to scout (too early and you get nothing and maybe lose a worker, too late and you get nothing)?
Out of these things you should focus on macro. Learn to spend all your resources and continually build up a large economy. Every time is a good time to scout if you don't know whats going on.
What's the best way to determine how many workers you have at a mineral field? I've read up on what's proper saturation and whatnot, but I can't just glance at a mineral field and know how many workers are I've got going.
OP you pretty much answered your questions yourself. The true high level players are good at all the things you've mentioned, but some high level players are more renowned for a particular characteristic. It's better to be a more well-rounded player and that just takes practice and detecting your own weaknesses.
On May 08 2010 12:01 bubblegumbo wrote: OP you pretty much answered your questions yourself.
Yeah, I like to think I'm not an idiot and I'm no fool. I can guess at what my major areas of improvement are. But I just want to get the takes of players much better than myself. Honestly, it's very discouraging to lose game after game, even if I know I need to practice. It's exciting and encouraging to get the input of more experienced veterans. And I have indeed gotten some good input!
I came up back in the Age series and went from nobody to winning many thousands, and it all started after I went to my first LIVE tournament. I suggest that if you ever have an RTS tournament near your house (at the time I lived near New York City, so that was easy access for me), go check it out. You can pick up a lot of things from other players, and I got all kinds of tips from people, including an old school SC1 guy named Crexis.
You realize after watching guys live what it really takes.
Also, when you are playing always commit and commit and commit some more. Once you commit to a goal, either accomplish that goal or lose, but never stop until one of those two things happens.
Do you ever see those games where guys try a drop and they see a cannon and run away? They always lose right? Once you commit, keep pushing until you at least accomplish something. If you do change strategy then RE commit and push as hard as you can in the new direction. It is when you are playing without direction and purpose that you lose.
Direction and purpose in your strategy breeds focus, and focus is the foundation to victory.
On May 08 2010 11:09 InternetNinja wrote: I've been around RTS's for awhile, but never enough to get seriously competitive. Now that I'm getting curb stomped 80% of the time in SC2, I want to try and hone my skill.
What would you say is the most important element to high level play? Is it having a specific build order (I find myself throwing buildings down without any real timing)? Is it unit micro? Is it macro? When is the best time to scout (too early and you get nothing and maybe lose a worker, too late and you get nothing)?
I play as much as I can, and I watch videos of high level play, but sometimes I feel that isn't helping me much. The pros don't waste cash on tons of static def because they can micro their units around much more easily than me. They have different build orders because they can make their units count much more than I can.
I know I may be asking a lot, but if anyone could just give me their personal opinion of what I should focus on to get better, I would greatly appreciate it!
Pretty much everything you said. Every RTS is inherently different in it's gameplay, and what you need to be good at in order to be a very good player. I few things that cross over from all RTS though (and one reason that elite RTS players can switch games and be very skilled in another game relatively quickly) are practicing a lot (all of the top players average in about 6 hours a day minimum, with those who get paid to play putting in 10 or 12 to 18 hours), knowing how to navigate the keyboard like it is second nature, knowing the basic mechanics of the game/ your race, knowing how to scout, knowing the basic unit compositions and what beats what, and excecution.
To be good at starcraft, you need to know when you should expand/ attack, when you should tech/ power an army, you need to know how different maps effect your overall strategy, you need to know the differences in gameflow in each of your match-ups, and a lot more that i'm just too lazy to think about right now.
basically, you need to play a lot, and then watch reps trying to identify what you are doing wrong and what good players are doing right, and then make subtle changes, and play some more.
A good player practices until he can get it right, a great player practices until he can't get it wrong.
Build order, Strategy, Planning. Then, once you know what you're doing, you can tweak it to what you're opponent is doing. After you have that down, work on your mechanics skills, just mastering playing the actual game. Finally, once you have those two down, you can work on your micro and increasing your (god I hate this phrase) APM.
To reiterate, practice. Work on strategies and BO's to know what you're doing and actually using your brain against your opponents. Then work on mechanics to increase your speed and efficiency ingame. Finally, micro so you can do some fancier moves like a thor drop while pushing your opponents expo.
A great site to work on your mouse accuracy, speed, and precision is missionred.com. The Reflex games are AWESOME to increase your speed and accuracy.
Anyways, best of luck! Hopefully I'll be seeing you in platinum soon!
Don't just blindly train mechanics and build orders. Those and dedication are necessary basics but they are NOT what makes a great player. These are not special traits that suddenly make you amazing. They are things that all players can train, not just you, but they only take you so far.
What separates OK players from high level players is an always adapting mindset. Being able to understand the game does not mean you can adapt to the game. A great player will never see any build order or trend without questioning it. "Specific build orders" are the result of game after game of adapting to different trends and have a reason behind every detail.
To answer your question specifically, the most important thing is to think and learn, not just watch and learn. Don't know when to scout? Why don't you re-watch those high level games you supposedly learned a lot from, and ask "why is he scouting at this time? why did he scout differently on this map but not on that map? what exactly is he trying to see?" Once you understand your goals, mechanics will come much easier.
There is no secret. But if you think you're doing everything mechanically perfect and you're still losing it's probably because your opponents are probably thinking a few steps ahead of you. This is a strategy game so don't expect to play like a robot and win every time.
Honestly, having a resilient personality is also a key characteristic to become good as well. Even the top player started off losing all the time as newbies, but it's important to not nerdrage too hard and break the PC/game disk. Taking a break to do something else in between losing streaks is a good thing!
You know what might help, in addition to what has already been said? Watch some episodes of Nal_Ra's Oldboy and Hyung Joon Becomes A Progamer and pay attention to the feedback/criticism that the progamers (and even the commentators) have to offer.
As silly as that might sound, if you really think carefully about what they are saying, you can learn a lot about what it takes to play at the top level.
edit - Also, listen to players/members of the community who are known for their high-level analysis, like Day[9]. Not just their analysis itself, but the way they approach the game and the sorts of questions they ask.
If you listen to their analysis you'll often realise that as a top-level player, everything must have a purpose. It's not uncommon to see Day[9] pick up, and focus on, the smallest and most insignificant detail about a particular build, tactic, building/unit/placement and explain why he likes/dislikes that. It's because that kind of attention to detail is essential at high-level play.
Make things. Then use those things to make other things. Then make more things. And then hit your opponent over the head with your things until somebody wins.
On May 08 2010 11:15 Mnijykmirl wrote: Really freaking good mechanics and being good at poker.
lol
ok srsly practice more and watch reps it's ez
I'm serious. Very very good players obviously have practice and understand the game through replays or whatever. But what's more important is that they never fault in their extremely polished macro and always have some kind of micro along with building and unit placement details, and they obsess over playing the opposing player, not just their units(in my shorthand- poker) and using the intel game to its maximum level.
watch your replays and learn from mitakes, see why you lost, im a very slow learner ill lose same way like 5 times till I start doing things different, if you lose at start compare your army size to his. Why did he have a bigger army than you? Why did u lose that battle where you had a bigger army? I lost to plat players in like 5 games yesterday and I lost mostly due to not starting the fight so my army wasnt spread out to do damage, like immmortals not being to hit their army meaning stalkers droped like flies... All becaus eof positioning as I tried to take them on when they were at the botoom of my ramp, checked and I had a bigger army than him and I could of waited for him to come to me up the ramp and it would of been adifferent fight.. instead I lost 6 stalkers just trying to get oto the ramp, then lost a pvp the same way, its all about positioniong micro and macro and to keep building while you fight.
On May 08 2010 12:45 Gliche wrote: Don't just blindly train mechanics and build orders. Those and dedication are necessary basics but they are NOT what makes a great player. These are not special traits that suddenly make you amazing. They are things that all players can train, not just you, but they only take you so far.
What separates OK players from high level players is an always adapting mindset. Being able to understand the game does not mean you can adapt to the game. A great player will never see any build order or trend without questioning it. "Specific build orders" are the result of game after game of adapting to different trends and have a reason behind every detail.
To answer your question specifically, the most important thing is to think and learn, not just watch and learn. Don't know when to scout? Why don't you re-watch those high level games you supposedly learned a lot from, and ask "why is he scouting at this time? why did he scout differently on this map but not on that map? what exactly is he trying to see?" Once you understand your goals, mechanics will come much easier.
very sound advice here. especially the last paragraph.
On May 08 2010 11:57 UnknownSoldier wrote: What's the best way to determine how many workers you have at a mineral field? I've read up on what's proper saturation and whatnot, but I can't just glance at a mineral field and know how many workers are I've got going.
What I do is double click a mining worker, if more than 24 workers show up then it's time to expand. When the expansion is complete, then transfer 8 workers from main to the expo. If you're expanding because youre low on gas then build the gas extractors at the same time as the main building and when you transfer workers put directly 3 on each geyser, your gas count will skyrocket in no time.
Don't play to win at first. Play to learn. Build different units until it's second nature to tech to and build each and every one. Try them out as counters to different things your opponent is doing. Do different BO's. It's not important to win at this point but to see first hand what works and what doesn't. You can read all the guides in the world, but testing stuff out yourself is far more valuable.
Also, play all the races, even if you have chosen a primary race. It gets much easier to scout what your opponent is doing when you've done it yourself.
I'm not a very good player, but i'm improving steadily doing this, watching day[9]'s stuff and other streams with commentary and reading the forums here. But the most important part is to experiment a lot and not worry too much about winning. If i learn something from a game i consider it a victory at this point (even though the ladder doesn't )
As a fomer top Age of Empires player and then Urban Terror i can tell you the best thing you can do to improve is to think for yourself. Watching replays is good if you're too dumb and can't figure out a good strategy by yourself, but i hope thats not the case because at least you seem smart enough to ask for help.
If you know math, you can easily calculate several perfect strategies for early game, with perfect economy based on resources/min, and the cost of units and buildings. Also think big, think of the overall strategy of the game, not just the build order. Adapting to different situations of the game should also become second nature to you, and that'll come with thinking and experience. If you lost a game, go watch your replay, and think what you could have done at the moment you lost. If you can't figure it out, maybe the error was made before that moment. So don't go watch how a pro would do it. Watch yourself, and THINK how you could have done it. Logic is the same everywhere, and being a progamer or a newbie won't change it. Use your brain. Don't be afraid to sit quietly for an hour and study what you can do aggainst x, different kinds of strategies and adaptations to what the oponent is doing/did.
Also use all the game has to offer, hotkeys, all the little tricks, etc. Every little thing helps. Finding some mates with equal mentality like you and with whom you can have fun in the game will help tons too. You'll help and motivate each other. Don't underestimate this
If you watch pros replays watch them faster than usual, so you get the global idea of the strategy. Because many times his specific actions are related to that global strategy, and by watching it slowly you might wrongly attribute certain action to something else. Don't get too much stopped on the details of what he is doing, at least untill you have a very good knowledge of the game. Most times something happens on purpose but some it's just random, others are mistakes, and until you don't have that game knowledge it'll be hard to be able to distinguish between those. I don't like when people start analyzing pros replays saying "why did he do x, why such angle, why at y time". Well go play yourself and study your replays getting a better game knowledge and you'll probably end up doing like him or better, have some confidence in yourself Still watching other ppl's replays is useful for the reasons mentioned above and to help you think out of the box. And if there are games with commentary like it seems day 9 does a good job, that can definitely speed up the process of learning.
Anyway, if you're really comited to being best of the best you should know some math, at least for these begining moments, where strategies are still flourishing. Make yourself good strategies. Many pros just pratice over and over until repetition tells them what build order seems best. By doing some calculus you'll know the perfect build orders, even pros will have to copy it from you. I know because i've been copied and seen some of my strategies become mainstream. lol
And last but not least, practice. After all the thinking, go put your new strategies to the test, go lose more games so you can improve even more - even the ones you win, what you could've done to make that win a stronger one. Make micro intensive games, where you focus almost only on micro, then macro intensive games, this will push you to new limits on each of these, so you'll get to know things which weren't apparent at lower levels of skill. Same for practicing in just one map. Later when you change to other maps, many times you'll be able to use the indepth knowledge you gained from playing the other to exaustion and apply it to the new one. Also by playing just one map you'll have one less thing to worry about, and will be able to focus on fewer things at each time, which for learning is definitely helpful.
So in conclusion, know the game, which units counter what, the income of gatherers/min, how many you need for specific units, buildings, etc etc, so that these infos become second nature to you, get with (a) friend(s) to share, have fun, concentrate on few things at each time, and finally think for yourself. You can get better like this much faster than just mindlessly practicing and watching pros replays.
my advice would be: don't 'know'; grow! to learn how to interact in relation to someone's strategy at that moment is something that's intuitive, and an intangible thing that is very difficult to measure. with doing what you think someone else would do, it would be difficult to do what YOU think is best to do. use the knowledge you are gathering from others to guide your growth and change your mindset so you can grow into the player with the style that you are supposed to be and have.
Idra trained for almost two years in Korea with pros and still wasn't as dominant as he should have been. Schnibl0r played roughly 1k games during two WGT-seasons and became a Zerg only second to Mondragon. I know people who played several thousand games over the course of years and still lose to the first zealot and probe. And Smuft or Rekrul had both long breaks from BW and could still put up a decent fight against active players.
I think most people practice without any or to little purpose. Can you really commit yourself to play one matchup/buildorder over and over again, even though it is getting extremely boring? Going twice or thrice over your replays on slow, checking for mistakes? Not going for an easy win but choosing the "right" decision, that in the end might cost you the game? Trying to turn the tide of a lost game? All of that for several hours a day, foregoing other interests you have?
I think it is this kind of commitment to purposeful training that really is the difference to the guy who has no idea what aspect of his game is lacking and how he could change it but still wonders why he isn't improving after thousands of games.
I'm also absolutely convinced that every top player has a much, much better ability to focus during a game than the average joe and uses his mind for than rather against himself (e.g. stopping yourself from tilting or motivating yourself when you need to).
Really ask yourself why others can control/micro their units better than you. They are merely humans, as you are, and they have no "special powers" which makes them more superior than you. They were once as bad, if not worse, then you at some form of RTS.
It simply takes practice, hours upon hours of practice. Play ladder and focus on specific points every game. For example, for 20 games in a row, say to yourself, "I am going to practice my macro and improve on it" So you pay extra attention to your macro and make sure to always have your production hotkeyed and you force yourself to ALWAYS be macroing, producing workers and units, and teching at the same time. You must do this even while you are fighting, harassing, or defending as well. You must pound that into your head and eventually it will be 2nd nature/muscle memory.
Then after you think you have really improved (I recommend saving those replays that you really focus on something specific), go back and watch those first few replays and then the last few and look how good your macro has improved. This gives a big boost of confidence, then move on to the next thing you want to practice. (Micro, Mechanics, Harassing, Multitasking, Timings, Build Orders, Specific Matchups, etc...) Good luck and have fun!
On May 08 2010 20:34 Duelist wrote: As a fomer top Age of Empires player and then Urban Terror i can tell you the best thing you can do to improve is to think for yourself. Watching replays is good if you're too dumb and can't figure out a good strategy by yourself, but i hope thats not the case because at least you seem smart enough to ask for help.
If you know math, you can easily calculate several perfect strategies for early game, with perfect economy based on resources/min, and the cost of units and buildings. Also think big, think of the overall strategy of the game, not just the build order. Adapting to different situations of the game should also become second nature to you, and that'll come with thinking and experience. If you lost a game, go watch your replay, and think what you could have done at the moment you lost. If you can't figure it out, maybe the error was made before that moment. So don't go watch how a pro would do it. Watch yourself, and THINK how you could have done it. Logic is the same everywhere, and being a progamer or a newbie won't change it. Use your brain. Don't be afraid to sit quietly for an hour and study what you can do aggainst x, different kinds of strategies and adaptations to what the oponent is doing/did.
Also use all the game has to offer, hotkeys, all the little tricks, etc. Every little thing helps. Finding some mates with equal mentality like you and with whom you can have fun in the game will help tons too. You'll help and motivate each other. Don't underestimate this
If you watch pros replays watch them faster than usual, so you get the global idea of the strategy. Because many times his specific actions are related to that global strategy, and by watching it slowly you might wrongly attribute certain action to something else. Don't get too much stopped on the details of what he is doing, at least untill you have a very good knowledge of the game. Most times something happens on purpose but some it's just random, others are mistakes, and until you don't have that game knowledge it'll be hard to be able to distinguish between those. I don't like when people start analyzing pros replays saying "why did he do x, why such angle, why at y time". Well go play yourself and study your replays getting a better game knowledge and you'll probably end up doing like him or better, have some confidence in yourself Still watching other ppl's replays is useful for the reasons mentioned above and to help you think out of the box. And if there are games with commentary like it seems day 9 does a good job, that can definitely speed up the process of learning.
Anyway, if you're really comited to being best of the best you should know some math, at least for these begining moments, where strategies are still flourishing. Make yourself good strategies. Many pros just pratice over and over until repetition tells them what build order seems best. By doing some calculus you'll know the perfect build orders, even pros will have to copy it from you. I know because i've been copied and seen some of my strategies become mainstream. lol
And last but not least, practice. After all the thinking, go put your new strategies to the test, go lose more games so you can improve even more - even the ones you win, what you could've done to make that win a stronger one. Make micro intensive games, where you focus almost only on micro, then macro intensive games, this will push you to new limits on each of these, so you'll get to know things which weren't apparent at lower levels of skill. Same for practicing in just one map. Later when you change to other maps, many times you'll be able to use the indepth knowledge you gained from playing the other to exaustion and apply it to the new one. Also by playing just one map you'll have one less thing to worry about, and will be able to focus on fewer things at each time, which for learning is definitely helpful.
So in conclusion, know the game, which units counter what, the income of gatherers/min, how many you need for specific units, buildings, etc etc, so that these infos become second nature to you, get with (a) friend(s) to share, have fun, concentrate on few things at each time, and finally think for yourself. You can get better like this much faster than just mindlessly practicing and watching pros replays.
Good luck
Good post.
Its not just practice that makes you good... Not everybody who practices, gets good.
Most important thing is to have an understanding to the game, from there you know how you should improve your micro and macro. The player with better understanding might not win vs a player with better mechanics but he's in a better position to improve. This might not be as true for SCBW, since it's so mapped out game, but definitely for a new game like SC2.
I'll also link to a good overall RTS guide written by my friend... It's got little parts of specifics of another game, smaller parts of SC reference, but 99% it applies to any RTS. Really basic stuff that a good player understands already but for beginners it should be helpful. http://www.smuggoat.com/blog/?page_id=148
Adapt. Analyze. Be stubborn in what you are going to Achieve. Learn how to control the flow of the game by beeing the one who decides what you (and you opponent) are going to do. Get better at playing mind games on your opponent. Deceive him. I'll continue this later.
in short: actively figure out what youre weak at, and consciously try to improve it next time you play. Do so in manageable chunks, and do so as often as you can handle :D. This can range from: micro, macro, strategy, speed, knowledge of your race/their race tactics . etc How to improve on the specific areas is more complex, but theres a ton of resources, esp on TL :D The first step is diagnosing it.
In addition, you can get someone else to assess it for you, by uploading your replay. Your mileage may vary with arbitrary public critiques, but glaring holes people will typically come to a consensus.
Lastly it could be helpful to watch replays, but think a lot about the decisions and activity levels etc. Maybe check it out on your race's view, FP mode to kind of 'be there'. Also, as mentioned,some of the podcasts and commentary are fantastic to give insight, especially on your opponent race's tactics.
Just gotta use your head and think about what build you can come up with that counters a previous build you've lost to.... most importantly, volume, volume, volume, practice makes perfect ;o
On May 08 2010 11:09 InternetNinja wrote: I've been around RTS's for awhile, but never enough to get seriously competitive. Now that I'm getting curb stomped 80% of the time in SC2, I want to try and hone my skill.
What would you say is the most important element to high level play? Is it having a specific build order (I find myself throwing buildings down without any real timing)? Is it unit micro? Is it macro? When is the best time to scout (too early and you get nothing and maybe lose a worker, too late and you get nothing)?
I play as much as I can, and I watch videos of high level play, but sometimes I feel that isn't helping me much. The pros don't waste cash on tons of static def because they can micro their units around much more easily than me. They have different build orders because they can make their units count much more than I can.
I know I may be asking a lot, but if anyone could just give me their personal opinion of what I should focus on to get better, I would greatly appreciate it!
The main thing is; you need to play about 5 hours a day, preferably more.
Mass gaming is going to do more to improve your game than anything else.
Well, if I wanted to follow where this thread has been headed, I'd say "You've gotta have heart."
But really, no. Don't build the whole tech tree. Know what units to build to counter other units. This can be somewhat found on the help menu, but it's also helpful to understand why these units are a counter and makes it easier to remember. This is one of the primary reasons you scout. Know what buildings it takes to make what units. When you see a toss with two robotics facilities, you know immortals and colossi are likely. Immortals will not take more than 10 damage before their shields are down, so the counter to that is going to be units that are cheap, easy to mass, and do a low amount of damage. You also have to beware of colossi, which are expensive units that do lines of aoe damage, but can be hit by air attacks. So know the build that counters immortals and colossi and run it. (I'd suggest it here, but I'm bad. Banshees and more banshees?) Ideally, if you can see his actual army, you can know exactly what mix of units he's going with.
Some purposes of scouting: 1. To know their army and tech tree, as mentioned above. 2. To know their expansions/income. If they've just expanded and you had the same income before, that means they've spent 4-600 on economy that you haven't, right? So all else being equal, you should have a larger army and be able to take out their expansion. If you can't, you know you need to expand yourself soon or fall behind. 3. To know what attacks are coming and decide where you want to fight. If you see void rays coming along the right side of the map, then you know where your vikings/marines need to be to intercept them. You want to meet those void rays before they get charged up and/or have taken out a command center. Alternatively, if there's just 1-2 sitting in a vulnerable spot and waiting, you may be able to take it out before more can rally to that spot. 4. To deny your opponent this same information. 1 & 3 together help you counter a rush. You need to know they're rushing, and being closer to your base than they are, you should have the advantage in how many units you can have available for the fight by the time they get there.
Also, know the "cheese" strats and how to counter them. Against toss, always scout around your base early for a proxy pylon/gateways. Watch for an overseer that my be scouting for a nydus tunnel, etc. As toss against terran, you just always have to be ready for reapers.
When practicing have key points that you want to work on in every game you play:
- Basic mechanics. (Binding/hotkeying for army units and every structure you build. As well as strategic rally points. Awareness of food count (supply). Map awareness (scouting your opponent)
- Multitasking. (Massing (macro) and Micro-Managing your units in battle.)
- Mastering specific opening builds and timings in relation to the match-up and how to transition from early to mid to late game with those builds. (For example: specific openings against XvT XvP XvZ)
- Developing overall game sense until it becomes natural. (Watch replays of your loses and look out for key sticking points. Work on these key sticking points until they're no longer of habit.)
The advice given in this thread has been hugely helpful to me. I'm overjoyed at the huge response I got, especially with such a vague question. I would like to suggest that this thread be stickied in some form? That would prevent new members from asking this same basic general question over and over. There's so much good advice here, and so many in-depth posts, that I'd hate to see it drop off the front page and have someone else ask the same thing two days later.
Now i wish this was FB where i could like that post...
Either way, I never played any RTS past the custom maps or UMS maps, etc until SC2, and now i'm in high plat. One thing you must know to do is based on your race mostly.
For Terran and Protoss: CONSTANTLY be producing probes / SCVs all game (that way once you expo, you'll have saturation there as well)
For Zerg: The big thing is to properly know when to produce drones over units. Alot of good players go through the mindset of thinking to themselves to Drone up, making the occasional combat units until they see that the enemy army is moving out, and then to unitspam.
Also, seeing when they are ABOUT to move out is useful too IE, when you see they have a critical amount of units, etc, which is then the best time to start making more units (but still some drones) until they attack.
I think the fastest way to improve is to just take a build and optimize it against the very easy AI, getting all the timings right down to the second. Then take that any just play against people preferably friends who can do builds against you so you can tweak your build but then play it on the ladder. Do that with a couple of builds and I think your macro will improve immensely since it will just be second nature, then you can improve your micro by actually having the units to play against. The main thing I think you need is just pure reps in a controlled setting where you can focus on one thing at a time.
What level are you (leaguewise)? I don't know if you've done it yet, but listen to the Weapon of Choice podcasts (www.djwheat.tv). Do the "challenges" that Chill suggests. I feel that these exercises are fantastic for beginners and/or anyone who doesn't completely have the concept down.
High level play as in making a career out of it....?
Or just enjoying top-ish rank in ladder/Random tourneys?
I would say just play ladder, and reflect upon why/how you lost. Most of the mistakes account to weaker economy, weaker macro, lack of scouting/countering your opponment. Game has very little depth once you manage those 3 aspects of it. Hotkeys will help you improve on all these, as it gives you more time to maneuver your army, think about what your opponment is doing, etc.
Playing the AI is silly, its one thing to perfect a build, its another to pull it off under pressure. Watching replays or streams, aside from entertainment is a WASTE of time. Its one thing to listen to commentaries/watch other players, its another to figure it out on your own.
On May 21 2010 09:11 AeroGear wrote: High level play as in making a career out of it....?
Or just enjoying top-ish rank in ladder/Random tourneys?
I would say just play ladder, and reflect upon why/how you lost. Most of the mistakes account to weaker economy, weaker macro, lack of scouting/countering your opponment. Game has very little depth once you manage those 3 aspects of it. Hotkeys will help you improve on all these, as it gives you more time to maneuver your army, think about what your opponment is doing, etc.
Playing the AI is silly, its one thing to perfect a build, its another to pull it off under pressure. Watching replays or streams, aside from entertainment is a WASTE of time. Its one thing to listen to commentaries/watch other players, its another to figure it out on your own.
This is a recurring topic.
watching replays/streams is incredibly important for becoming better. You can't become better by performing in a bubble. My terran play has drastically improved watching the korean terrans' replays.
You cant, I certainly did in WC3/TFT and still do in SC2. My terran play has improved by playing games, ladder will give you tougher opponments the higher you get.
Playing in a bubble would mean facing the same opponment or strategy every time.
I have 15 years of RTS gaming experience to draw from.
On May 08 2010 11:09 InternetNinja wrote: I've been around RTS's for awhile, but never enough to get seriously competitive. Now that I'm getting curb stomped 80% of the time in SC2, I want to try and hone my skill.
What would you say is the most important element to high level play? ...
Practice, practice, practice. Just play the game hours and hours, and challenge yourself as much as you can. Don't shy away from playing good players. You only become as good as the best players you're currently playing against.
And having the bare minimum of outside knowledge to know what to practice at when you lose, so that next time you face the same challenge you have a chance of overcoming it. This is where watching replays and learning strategy comes in.
Micro is good, but Macro is king. Focus on making stuff all the time. Never not be making something when you could be, and never let your money get high. You will find you can start to win simply by having more stuff than your opponent, and as you get faster and better at macro you can start sparing some time to micro stuff around as well.
Reaching high level play (not by cheesing every game) requires you to learn strategies that are responsive to your opponent and are executed with precise micro and macro. It requires an understanding of timings and builds, of unit mixes and transitions, and, like poker, forces the player to have a 'star sense' of things, for example, knowing your opponent is going voidrays because you saw his pylon placement.
On May 08 2010 11:57 UnknownSoldier wrote: What's the best way to determine how many workers you have at a mineral field? I've read up on what's proper saturation and whatnot, but I can't just glance at a mineral field and know how many workers are I've got going.
double click your workers to select them all and then count (8 per row fyi) You will be missing one or 2 that were in the geyser so if you're sitting around 28 (3 rows 'n a bit) you're fine, if not make more.
You might hear "talent" as an answer to this, but thats absolute shit. Talent doesn't exist, especially not here. The most important thing is hard work. Work hard learning the matchups, work hard learning builds, openings and strats. Work hard learning techniques, work hard learning timings.
At the end of the day, the person who wins more games on average isn't going to be someone with some bullshit like a "god-given" "talent" "gift".
Its going to be the person who made the sacrifices of time and effort to get as good as possible.
On May 21 2010 10:10 AeroGear wrote: You cant, I certainly did in WC3/TFT and still do in SC2. My terran play has improved by playing games, ladder will give you tougher opponments the higher you get.
Playing in a bubble would mean facing the same opponment or strategy every time.
I have 15 years of RTS gaming experience to draw from.
I have no idea what the hell you're even trying to say; learn to type. Your original point that watching streams or replays won't help you is still retarded, and nobody cares how many years of RTS games you have under your belt.
I think timing is underrated at low levels. Sure macro is also super important, but learning the timings of when to attack/defend/expand can win you a ton of games, especially against abusive builds.
On May 08 2010 11:18 Rotodyne wrote: At low levels, hands down the most important thing is macro. Most players have no idea how to make a large army in a somewhat small time period.
Yeah, macro, easily. You can roll over most people by just building a ton of units and attack-moving them into the opposing army and casting a few spells here and there. Macro really is the key; without macro, any amount of micro won't matter. A solid build order that you can use 100% of the time and adapt based on the opponent's play would also be very useful for improving quickly.
Macro>Micro at low level, once all the "general" strats and this game is out and all people starting to get to know everything about every race build timings and etc, Micro>Macro at least I hope so !
On May 08 2010 23:29 JohannesH wrote:I'll also link to a good overall RTS guide written by my friend... It's got little parts of specifics of another game, smaller parts of SC reference, but 99% it applies to any RTS. Really basic stuff that a good player understands already but for beginners it should be helpful. http://www.smuggoat.com/blog/?page_id=148
multitasking has to be one of the most key aspects. Being able to micro and macro, and keep an eye on what the opponent is doing while you keep mineral count low and make sure you don't suicide units. You must keep an eye on opponent's expansion timing, tech timing, etc so you can counter his build.
Im 1400-ish zerg that plays to improve my play, my style of play is macro, macro, macro, Amove, macro, macro, control battle to not get slaughtered, macro, macro, macro.
Use as greedy builds I can get away with. Never ever ever cheese! cheese is played to win, standard is played to get good at the game, you can cheese in tournaments if you want, or perhaps if you want to practice your micro.
rule of thumb: use a build that will work no matter what options he has, scout, see my signature, Hope for the best. Prepare for the worst!
have one build for every MU, practice that build, play that build a lot, you will face different opponents, and for every style you play you will find a way to beat that style.
this style will efficiently practice your skill and decisionmaking, you will get better eventually.
practice practice practice, I was born with no left hand, have 60 APM but still manages to actively climb the ladder, if I can get better, you can!
Basically, Macro, Micro, APM, Information and gamesense. At superhighlvl also metagame. These are the factors that I think is essental for SC. They all interact and you learn them simultaneously, but focusing on one aspect of the game at a time is often a good thing to do. This is what I would to if I started learning the game now.
First off, learning works like a sinus-curve, flat at first then getting steeper and steeper. That means you first have quick progress then it slows down as it gets harder, and also the learning you do in the begining as more relative impact than the more advanced stuff. Best way to learn is to focus on learning the basic lvls of every aspect I mentioned above, then start from the top of the list and try a bit more advanced things.
First learn to macro. No doubt this is the most important aspect of the game. On a basic lvl(the flat part of the sinuscurve) I would just learn to do everything without looking at the keyboard, as I learn that I try to learn a little more advanced stuff like macrotechniques, how to hotkey stuff to make macro as effeciant as possible etc. Then at a higher lvl I would just finetune everything, have good timings and no excess.
Sedondly, APM. Yes, I see this as separate from macro but some people dont. APM is basically your ability to mulittask, but you can have good macro without getting a superhigh APM. Anyways, once you have learnt some basic macro and feel comfortable with that and your learning has stunted somewhat, focus on APM for a while. You know your macro, you know what to do, when to do it, how to do it. Now force yourself to do it quicker; its to easy to get stuck in a tempo thats comfortable, you need to challenge your self to increase APM. Be careful though, if you do this before you learn enough macro, it will only hurt your learning. Macro first. If you get this and macro down, you can win several games by sheer overpowering.
Then I would start practicing more on micro.Basic lvl would be to split your armys and not have them all in one CTRL-group, forinstance having casters on a separate %, or splitting a zerg-army so that you can get a good concave with your swarm; more advance would be to learn how to use those spellcasters efficiently.
The category I labeled information is basically both ingame information and outofgame information; ie scouting to know how to best apply your other skills, and a general knowledge of how to answer to that information, what units are good against what etc.
A gamesense means that you intuitively knows whats going on, and what you need to do, even though you may not have scouted everything. There are some techniques for this but basically experience and playing alot is the best way; and a good way to cut some corners on this and also the above mentioned information aspect; is to watch streams and replays. You get so much knowledge there for free. But you need to play the game and apply those insights for it to settle.
Metagame at higher lvl (not that im there) is pretty much beeing part of the "clique" of best players, you play eachother alot and you always have first hand knowledge of the changes that are going on in the builds and between the MUs. Slight nuances that can win you games.
Well, thats how I would go about if I was starting out fresh for sc2. Other people might have other ideas.
Actually I play few matches but I feel like each of them helps me alot in improving myself mainly by using the same tactic over and over again and adjust to situations that occur. It seems that this really helps to do the same with any tactic I play.
So right now, as a Terran in TvP, I go for a fast factory/Siegetank and an expansion afterwards. Afterwards I go for 1 Starport, 1-2 Factories and many barracks. From there on I try to either push or expand further or make it a harassing heavy gameplay with stimpack drops. So I have this basis that is very adaptable since it already uses a mix of many units, however each game is very similar within only a few variations. Also, it seems to be a tactic that does not really matters what specific units are beeing made. It feels to be focussed on the overall strategical level much rather. And imo this is what really counts in the end. Playing a very restricted tactic that predifines every unit to be made because every choice of unit is so important feels like it doesn't really help me out when I switch tactics.
Motivation, nothing more. Even if you are a noob, you will be a great player if you won't lose your motivation to train, to improve. Losing motivation is the main reason why people quit cybersport.
Hands speed and game understanding (which you achive by playing a huge amount of games which basing on you natural talent can be 1.000 or 10.000 games) ... nothing much more than this. Hands speed is priority anyway in modern RTS competitive play. If you have excellent game understanding but not hand speeds you can't do much nowadays ...
1. Control group your command center/hatchery/nexus and always pump workers until you have around 30 per each base. You may need to stop worker production for special occasion, but that's for high level player.
2. Control group your production buildings and always pump some units, in fact ANY units, at all time. Any unit is better than no unit.
3. Always look at your supply count and add supplies as needed. You should do this whenever you are producing units.
4. If you have extra resources even though you are continuously pumping units, build more production buildings or expand.
5. Congrats, you just mastered the art of macro! Now go micro all your units while you're doing all these macro, and also don't ever stop thinking during the game about the strategies and counter-moves. Good luck! =)
Possible the worst pieces of advice ever given. 30 workers per base is way too many, 3 bases -> 120 supply just workers? Good luck ever getting to 3 bases.
Dont just pump any units, its the worst you can do, bad players usually lose because a) mechanics sucks too much, or b) they scout insufficiently or respond to scouted information poorly. So scout often and build units accordingly, theres a nice little help tool built in to sc2 that tells you what counters what. Number 3. and 4. above are actually good advice.
The most important thing you can do to improve your game is to play it when not in front of the computer: when eating for example think of what you did good/bad last game and try to mentally do better. This is something a lot of elite coaches tell their players in sports. Also watch a lot of replays, helps a ton.
I'd say the most important skill to have in SC2 is unit balance and focus firing. SC2 is purely rock-paper-scissor, and if you have a slightly wrong unit mix you're dead. And if you use your rocks against the papers instead of the scissors, you might lose an important battle.
APM means nothing at all in Starcraft 2. 100 or 200, makes no damn difference
i don't know if it had been said already, but try to figure out your weakness then try to focus on it to improove it. another important thing is to have an idea for that single game what you want to come up with as your first push / attack and what you want to end up with as first composition against that enemy.
lets say for example you decided as terran to get fast vikings against that zerg to harras and your primary weakness is that you still have not developed any feeling for timing so what is possible at which stage in the game... then i think it is totally ok to intentionally queue up or scout badly in order to focus on how fast is it possible to execute your plan for the midgame. So you figure out when is the earliest moment of having these vikings at a reasonable number. I know people playing with clocks or counting supply but i really appreciate developing an instinct / sense of what could be going on over there even if the ramp might be blocked somewhen so i can't scout. Later when having developd such instict you focus on something else like not queueing or like scouting for specific buildings...
On May 21 2010 23:08 Cheezy wrote: I'd say the most important skill to have in SC2 is unit balance and focus firing. SC2 is purely rock-paper-scissor, and if you have a slightly wrong unit mix you're dead. And if you use your rocks against the papers instead of the scissors, you might lose an important battle.
APM means nothing at all in Starcraft 2. 100 or 200, makes no damn difference
Nah, you can get away without even those items. You'll get to high level play if you just build units. That means just know when to expand, constantly build workers until saturated, and keep your money down. With just that advice you'll be Plat. Now care about micro.
I got placed in platinum easy without knowing what half of the SC2 units even do.
The secret: Macro. Develop a build order that gets you the largest army possible in the least amount of time. All that fine-tuning and what's-the-best-unit-combination-for-each-situation can come later.
At any level below platinum, players are still so bad that you can make the wrong units and win if you only make enough of them.
To me its all about repetition/practice. First understand the concept/which build you want. I play random so, if terran I may start with a reaper harass to scout, then maybe scout/marine or some banshee harass. This can all change with what my scout finds and you have to be able to switch on the fly(ie zerg FE, I try early pressure). This to me, just comes from lots of practice.
As a noob, I also lack in switching from macro/micro. I find myself with 2000+ minerals + 1000+ gas after battles because I focus and stare at a battle. You won't see that at all in high level games. Those are things I try to work on. The speed of switching from macro/micro gets better the more you play. I basically can only play a few times a week so I'll never he at a high level.
Scouting: knowing what you're opponent is doing is vital. Knowing where he is expanding is also key. I won a game yesterday because my opponent didn't detect a base where I was massing BCs. Seriously, its pretty hard to win massing BCs since it takes so much time/mineral intensive. But it was gg as soon as he saw the fleet.(I had extra minerals from focusing on micro lol).
You can research and know all the strategies(thats why I started using ghosts) but the best way to learn is by practice/repetition.
The desire to be the best is all you need. If you have that everything else will fall in place. You'll do all the research and optimizations you need instinctively.
I was able to put at least one good bit of advice to use yesterday: Reacting to your enemy's build. I was playing a ffa and I positioned an overlord in the middle of the map early on. Late in the game, as I was killing one of my opponents, I just barely caught a glimpse of mass voidrays. I started pumping corruptors and hydras so that when the battle finally came I was able to clean him up.
And also, I've seen some people asking this. I am ranked silver in 1v1 and gold in 2v2. I have a good friend as a 2v2 partner and we work well together. My main race is zerg (which is the only thing that irks me about Day9 -he is very terran oriented in some of his specific strategy talk). So I feel I'm at the perfect position to improve. I'm not playing consistently at the gold or plat level, but I'm about bronze and copper and I have a good enough grasp of the game to understand the advice given here.
I'm no pro, I really just started playing this game a matter of weeks ago, but I've managed to hit #1 in a platinum division, which isn't bad (although I realize there is HUGE disparity within platinum, the best platinum players would demolish me completely) and what I've noticed the most important things to be are scouting and understanding what options your opponents have based on their build order and unit composition, getting your mechanics to a point where you can manage several bases without slipping up, and being able to micro effectively in battles. If you can do those 3 things I really feel they're the key components to the game.
Scouting obviously allows you to counter what your opponent is doing. Denying scouting and having scouting information of your own gives you a massive advantage. Being able to micro units in a battle can make the difference in a close battle very easily. I've played many people who I beat simply because when we both had 2 zealots, I target fired 1 of his zealots and walked my wounded lot around the healthy one while he didn't. Same concept obviously applies in bigger battles, but micro has the biggest impact when you have few units. Then Macroing multiple bases efficiently will allow you to have constant unit production and let you keep your food limit as high as it can be.
I think once you can master those 3 things, it's just about being creative and thinking on the fly.
On May 08 2010 11:18 Slayer91 wrote: Most bad players will watch units for upwards of a minute and then make 5 additional barracks because they were not using the current ones.
This is essentially what I do. I always watch because of the potential for useful micro, but I tend to just sit there while mins explode. Wish I knew a good cure for ogling.
Also, I would advise that if you want to learn you should play 1v1 ladder games and avoid things like FFA where people just turtle, get 200 food of 1 unit, and then attack move across the map. These games will help you learn to macro a bit, but even then you're usually not getting harassed or attacked until everyone has max food, so you don't get realistic macro practice with the distractions you'll get in a real game.
edit - oh, and watch good players and try to understand why they're doing the things they do. Don't just copy them mindlessly, but think about why they're doing something and what situations it would be appropriate for you to use it in.
sound macro will take you very far; get a good economy and keep on building units (such that you're never > 400 mins) and you'll do very well. From there try to get good army compositions and micro, etc.... also, play 1v1's; your mistakes are much more apparent in 1v1s and they cost you more, so you'll learn much faster
EPT![[image loading]](http://www.camptaichi.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/tai-chi-needs-an-easy-button.jpg)
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Still watching other ppl's replays is useful for the reasons mentioned above and to help you think out of the box. And if there are games with commentary like it seems day 9 does a good job, that can definitely speed up the process of learning.
