EPT[D] The secret to High level play - Page 2
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puril
United States43 Posts
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KiLL_ORdeR
United States1518 Posts
On May 08 2010 11:09 InternetNinja wrote: I've been around RTS's for awhile, but never enough to get seriously competitive. Now that I'm getting curb stomped 80% of the time in SC2, I want to try and hone my skill. What would you say is the most important element to high level play? Is it having a specific build order (I find myself throwing buildings down without any real timing)? Is it unit micro? Is it macro? When is the best time to scout (too early and you get nothing and maybe lose a worker, too late and you get nothing)? I play as much as I can, and I watch videos of high level play, but sometimes I feel that isn't helping me much. The pros don't waste cash on tons of static def because they can micro their units around much more easily than me. They have different build orders because they can make their units count much more than I can. I know I may be asking a lot, but if anyone could just give me their personal opinion of what I should focus on to get better, I would greatly appreciate it! Pretty much everything you said. Every RTS is inherently different in it's gameplay, and what you need to be good at in order to be a very good player. I few things that cross over from all RTS though (and one reason that elite RTS players can switch games and be very skilled in another game relatively quickly) are practicing a lot (all of the top players average in about 6 hours a day minimum, with those who get paid to play putting in 10 or 12 to 18 hours), knowing how to navigate the keyboard like it is second nature, knowing the basic mechanics of the game/ your race, knowing how to scout, knowing the basic unit compositions and what beats what, and excecution. To be good at starcraft, you need to know when you should expand/ attack, when you should tech/ power an army, you need to know how different maps effect your overall strategy, you need to know the differences in gameflow in each of your match-ups, and a lot more that i'm just too lazy to think about right now. basically, you need to play a lot, and then watch reps trying to identify what you are doing wrong and what good players are doing right, and then make subtle changes, and play some more. | ||
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Satallgeese
United States239 Posts
A good player practices until he can get it right, a great player practices until he can't get it wrong. Build order, Strategy, Planning. Then, once you know what you're doing, you can tweak it to what you're opponent is doing. After you have that down, work on your mechanics skills, just mastering playing the actual game. Finally, once you have those two down, you can work on your micro and increasing your (god I hate this phrase) APM. To reiterate, practice. Work on strategies and BO's to know what you're doing and actually using your brain against your opponents. Then work on mechanics to increase your speed and efficiency ingame. Finally, micro so you can do some fancier moves like a thor drop while pushing your opponents expo. A great site to work on your mouse accuracy, speed, and precision is missionred.com. The Reflex games are AWESOME to increase your speed and accuracy. Anyways, best of luck! Hopefully I'll be seeing you in platinum soon! | ||
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Gliche
United States811 Posts
What separates OK players from high level players is an always adapting mindset. Being able to understand the game does not mean you can adapt to the game. A great player will never see any build order or trend without questioning it. "Specific build orders" are the result of game after game of adapting to different trends and have a reason behind every detail. To answer your question specifically, the most important thing is to think and learn, not just watch and learn. Don't know when to scout? Why don't you re-watch those high level games you supposedly learned a lot from, and ask "why is he scouting at this time? why did he scout differently on this map but not on that map? what exactly is he trying to see?" Once you understand your goals, mechanics will come much easier. | ||
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ManiacTheZealot
United States490 Posts
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guitarizt
United States1492 Posts
On May 08 2010 11:15 Mnijykmirl wrote: Really freaking good mechanics and being good at poker. lol ok srsly practice more and watch reps it's ez | ||
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bubblegumbo
Taiwan1296 Posts
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jtype
England2167 Posts
As silly as that might sound, if you really think carefully about what they are saying, you can learn a lot about what it takes to play at the top level. edit - Also, listen to players/members of the community who are known for their high-level analysis, like Day[9]. Not just their analysis itself, but the way they approach the game and the sorts of questions they ask. If you listen to their analysis you'll often realise that as a top-level player, everything must have a purpose. It's not uncommon to see Day[9] pick up, and focus on, the smallest and most insignificant detail about a particular build, tactic, building/unit/placement and explain why he likes/dislikes that. It's because that kind of attention to detail is essential at high-level play. | ||
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pyr0ma5ta
United States458 Posts
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Mnijykmirl
United States299 Posts
On May 08 2010 13:49 guitarizt wrote: lol ok srsly practice more and watch reps it's ez I'm serious. Very very good players obviously have practice and understand the game through replays or whatever. But what's more important is that they never fault in their extremely polished macro and always have some kind of micro along with building and unit placement details, and they obsess over playing the opposing player, not just their units(in my shorthand- poker) and using the intel game to its maximum level. | ||
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Hellhammer
Canada144 Posts
Please God please please. This is the true secret. | ||
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Tommylew
Wales2717 Posts
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wonksaggin
United States73 Posts
On May 08 2010 12:45 Gliche wrote: Don't just blindly train mechanics and build orders. Those and dedication are necessary basics but they are NOT what makes a great player. These are not special traits that suddenly make you amazing. They are things that all players can train, not just you, but they only take you so far. What separates OK players from high level players is an always adapting mindset. Being able to understand the game does not mean you can adapt to the game. A great player will never see any build order or trend without questioning it. "Specific build orders" are the result of game after game of adapting to different trends and have a reason behind every detail. To answer your question specifically, the most important thing is to think and learn, not just watch and learn. Don't know when to scout? Why don't you re-watch those high level games you supposedly learned a lot from, and ask "why is he scouting at this time? why did he scout differently on this map but not on that map? what exactly is he trying to see?" Once you understand your goals, mechanics will come much easier. very sound advice here. especially the last paragraph. | ||
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Tidesson
55 Posts
On May 08 2010 11:57 UnknownSoldier wrote: What's the best way to determine how many workers you have at a mineral field? I've read up on what's proper saturation and whatnot, but I can't just glance at a mineral field and know how many workers are I've got going. What I do is double click a mining worker, if more than 24 workers show up then it's time to expand. When the expansion is complete, then transfer 8 workers from main to the expo. If you're expanding because youre low on gas then build the gas extractors at the same time as the main building and when you transfer workers put directly 3 on each geyser, your gas count will skyrocket in no time. | ||
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schmar
Norway6 Posts
Also, play all the races, even if you have chosen a primary race. It gets much easier to scout what your opponent is doing when you've done it yourself. I'm not a very good player, but i'm improving steadily doing this, watching day[9]'s stuff and other streams with commentary and reading the forums here. But the most important part is to experiment a lot and not worry too much about winning. If i learn something from a game i consider it a victory at this point (even though the ladder doesn't  ) | ||
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Apolo
Portugal1259 Posts
If you know math, you can easily calculate several perfect strategies for early game, with perfect economy based on resources/min, and the cost of units and buildings. Also think big, think of the overall strategy of the game, not just the build order. Adapting to different situations of the game should also become second nature to you, and that'll come with thinking and experience. If you lost a game, go watch your replay, and think what you could have done at the moment you lost. If you can't figure it out, maybe the error was made before that moment. So don't go watch how a pro would do it. Watch yourself, and THINK how you could have done it. Logic is the same everywhere, and being a progamer or a newbie won't change it. Use your brain. Don't be afraid to sit quietly for an hour and study what you can do aggainst x, different kinds of strategies and adaptations to what the oponent is doing/did. Also use all the game has to offer, hotkeys, all the little tricks, etc. Every little thing helps. Finding some mates with equal mentality like you and with whom you can have fun in the game will help tons too. You'll help and motivate each other. Don't underestimate this  If you watch pros replays watch them faster than usual, so you get the global idea of the strategy. Because many times his specific actions are related to that global strategy, and by watching it slowly you might wrongly attribute certain action to something else. Don't get too much stopped on the details of what he is doing, at least untill you have a very good knowledge of the game. Most times something happens on purpose but some it's just random, others are mistakes, and until you don't have that game knowledge it'll be hard to be able to distinguish between those. I don't like when people start analyzing pros replays saying "why did he do x, why such angle, why at y time". Well go play yourself and study your replays getting a better game knowledge and you'll probably end up doing like him or better, have some confidence in yourself  Still watching other ppl's replays is useful for the reasons mentioned above and to help you think out of the box. And if there are games with commentary like it seems day 9 does a good job, that can definitely speed up the process of learning.Anyway, if you're really comited to being best of the best you should know some math, at least for these begining moments, where strategies are still flourishing. Make yourself good strategies. Many pros just pratice over and over until repetition tells them what build order seems best. By doing some calculus you'll know the perfect build orders, even pros will have to copy it from you. I know because i've been copied and seen some of my strategies become mainstream. lol And last but not least, practice. After all the thinking, go put your new strategies to the test, go lose more games so you can improve even more - even the ones you win, what you could've done to make that win a stronger one. Make micro intensive games, where you focus almost only on micro, then macro intensive games, this will push you to new limits on each of these, so you'll get to know things which weren't apparent at lower levels of skill. Same for practicing in just one map. Later when you change to other maps, many times you'll be able to use the indepth knowledge you gained from playing the other to exaustion and apply it to the new one. Also by playing just one map you'll have one less thing to worry about, and will be able to focus on fewer things at each time, which for learning is definitely helpful. So in conclusion, know the game, which units counter what, the income of gatherers/min, how many you need for specific units, buildings, etc etc, so that these infos become second nature to you, get with (a) friend(s) to share, have fun, concentrate on few things at each time, and finally think for yourself. You can get better like this much faster than just mindlessly practicing and watching pros replays. Good luck | ||
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wonksaggin
United States73 Posts
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wonksaggin
United States73 Posts
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Quint
467 Posts
Idra trained for almost two years in Korea with pros and still wasn't as dominant as he should have been. Schnibl0r played roughly 1k games during two WGT-seasons and became a Zerg only second to Mondragon. I know people who played several thousand games over the course of years and still lose to the first zealot and probe. And Smuft or Rekrul had both long breaks from BW and could still put up a decent fight against active players. I think most people practice without any or to little purpose. Can you really commit yourself to play one matchup/buildorder over and over again, even though it is getting extremely boring? Going twice or thrice over your replays on slow, checking for mistakes? Not going for an easy win but choosing the "right" decision, that in the end might cost you the game? Trying to turn the tide of a lost game? All of that for several hours a day, foregoing other interests you have? I think it is this kind of commitment to purposeful training that really is the difference to the guy who has no idea what aspect of his game is lacking and how he could change it but still wonders why he isn't improving after thousands of games. I'm also absolutely convinced that every top player has a much, much better ability to focus during a game than the average joe and uses his mind for than rather against himself (e.g. stopping yourself from tilting or motivating yourself when you need to). | ||
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TheNomad
United States134 Posts
It simply takes practice, hours upon hours of practice. Play ladder and focus on specific points every game. For example, for 20 games in a row, say to yourself, "I am going to practice my macro and improve on it" So you pay extra attention to your macro and make sure to always have your production hotkeyed and you force yourself to ALWAYS be macroing, producing workers and units, and teching at the same time. You must do this even while you are fighting, harassing, or defending as well. You must pound that into your head and eventually it will be 2nd nature/muscle memory. Then after you think you have really improved (I recommend saving those replays that you really focus on something specific), go back and watch those first few replays and then the last few and look how good your macro has improved. This gives a big boost of confidence, then move on to the next thing you want to practice. (Micro, Mechanics, Harassing, Multitasking, Timings, Build Orders, Specific Matchups, etc...) Good luck and have fun! | ||
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