EPTFast Raven
Fast Thor
Fast Ghost
[G] How to play TvZ at platinum level - Page 5
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PeterDoe
United Kingdom53 Posts
Fast Raven Fast Thor Fast Ghost | ||
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BlasiuS
United States2405 Posts
On May 10 2010 15:56 PeterDoe wrote: I think there are 3 TvZ guide threads could be added as tools to deal with Zerg expo. Fast Raven Fast Thor Fast Ghost All of those are pre-patch 11. Mass ravens aren't viable anymore I think, due to NP affecting air units now. 1 thor push may work, but due to thor changes, I won't be convinced until I see some patch 11 replays showing it working (at least 3 at plat level) nuke rush could also still be viable, I may add that to the mid-game/late-game section, it's not really an opening (after reading the post, I see that the build opens with fast hellions). | ||
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GoodCat1
Israel266 Posts
even if he goes mutas you'll be able to take his nat with this push and build thors/turrets at ur base | ||
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GoodCat1
Israel266 Posts
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BlasiuS
United States2405 Posts
On May 11 2010 01:42 GoodCat1 wrote: if zerg FE and going for hydras you can roll him with a sexy 2fact push with 3 tanks 4hellions and marines from rax with reactor even if he goes mutas you'll be able to take his nat with this push and build thors/turrets at ur base I'll need more than 2 sentences. At the very least provide the BO and 3 or more platinum level replays showing this build working. | ||
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ymirheim
Sweden300 Posts
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Slayer91
Ireland23342 Posts
On May 12 2010 05:50 ymirheim wrote: What are other terrans experience in TvZ in games that go on into macro games? I have lost a stunning 100% of my TvZ games that has gone beyond 15 minutes. Literally, if I don't kill the first expansion of the zerg with a timing push at 10 minutes then I loose, no matter what I do. My macro mechanics are just fine as I win all other matchups in long macro games but against zerg I just get mauled. Its not even close. 1: Are you expanding fast [like after 2 hellions] or else doing significant damage to justify delaying your expansion? 2: Are you keeping up close enough in the worker count throughout the game? 3: Are you taking a fast third base if you think he can't attack you but you don't want to commit to a push? 4: What unit composition are you having trouble with? Consider using more tanks and more marines in your mix. 5: Are you using medivacs during your push vs a mass expo zerg? TvZ right now I find VERY fair, even the so called imba broodlords I think are easily stopped with ghost//viking. [Snipe!] Right now I'm going for marauder/tank/marine/medivac against a baneling or hydra heavy combo, adding thors and a second fact and go marauder/thor/marine/tank against muta/ling/baneling. Ravens I get when I went banshees early they're awesome. Ghosts i get vs infestors or broodlords. I tend to expand quite a lot, as 2 base aggression is a bit SC:BW =p | ||
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Logo
United States7542 Posts
Mass ravens aren't viable anymore I think, due to NP affecting air units now. I don' t think this is true. Raven's have 3 range on their PDD and the PDD has a range of 8. That would mean a raven can be up to 11 units away from the enemy and drop the PDD in battle and have it still affect the enemy. Infestor's 9 range on NP shouldn't be enough to hit the raven. You just have to be more protective of the raven now. As for harassing, the early ravens come out faster than infestors with NP since NP is researched. The infestors also need the 100 energy compared to 50 before meaning they will have to have been out for a while as well. | ||
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BlasiuS
United States2405 Posts
On May 12 2010 06:05 Logo wrote: I don' t think this is true. Raven's have 3 range on their PDD and the PDD has a range of 8. That would mean a raven can be up to 11 units away from the enemy and drop the PDD in battle and have it still affect the enemy. Infestor's 9 range on NP shouldn't be enough to hit the raven. You just have to be more protective of the raven now. As for harassing, the early ravens come out faster than infestors with NP since NP is researched. The infestors also need the 100 energy compared to 50 before meaning they will have to have been out for a while as well. As far as I'm aware, massing ravens just for PDD isn't a very viable strategy. But if you can provide a solid BO and at least 3 plat level replays (or some replays of top players using it) I'll add it to the guide. | ||
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Logo
United States7542 Posts
On May 12 2010 06:12 BlasiuS wrote: As far as I'm aware, massing ravens just for PDD isn't a very viable strategy. But if you can provide a solid BO and at least 3 plat level replays (or some replays of top players using it) I'll add it to the guide. I didn't mean to imply that, I was just saying that if the raven rushing WAS viable then I don't see how the changes would affect it's viability. Ravens can be NPed now, but it's harder to get NP out and the range of ravens makes them still usable in battle even if the enemy has NP. I'd still want patch 11 replays before considering it as a solid strat, it's just I don't think it's really been affected. | ||
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Markwerf
Netherlands3728 Posts
Their DPS is the same but they shoot 3 times in the same time as 2 shots before. Against hydra's they gotten quite worse as they used to 1 shot them but 2 shot them now, with upgrades they almost 1 shot them though so any splash from a hellion or so will kill em. Against zerglings they are better as they just kill them quicker now for what it matters. Against roaches they also got better actually, first they 2 shotted them now they 3 shoot them in the same time. With upgrades however they almost 2 shot them so if any splash already hit the roaches which is very common with siege tanks & hellions they will kill them faster as they will overkill much less. The DPS with upgrades also increased for thors as they went from 45(+3 per upg) to 30(+3 per upg). So all in all the thor is still very good against zerg, it got worse as a dropping tool but does the same if not better in most battle's. The damage against armored air got a bit worse but the broodlord also got weaker so that more then evens out.. | ||
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imsoniac
Canada14 Posts
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ymirheim
Sweden300 Posts
On May 12 2010 05:54 Slayer91 wrote: 1: Are you expanding fast [like after 2 hellions] or else doing significant damage to justify delaying your expansion? 2: Are you keeping up close enough in the worker count throughout the game? 3: Are you taking a fast third base if you think he can't attack you but you don't want to commit to a push? 4: What unit composition are you having trouble with? Consider using more tanks and more marines in your mix. 5: Are you using medivacs during your push vs a mass expo zerg? TvZ right now I find VERY fair, even the so called imba broodlords I think are easily stopped with ghost//viking. [Snipe!] Right now I'm going for marauder/tank/marine/medivac against a baneling or hydra heavy combo, adding thors and a second fact and go marauder/thor/marine/tank against muta/ling/baneling. Ravens I get when I went banshees early they're awesome. Ghosts i get vs infestors or broodlords. I tend to expand quite a lot, as 2 base aggression is a bit SC:BW =p Thanks  This is precisely what I need, someone to throw questions out there that I might not be considering due to getting too frustrated over my loosing streak. I actually do use tanks and I think they are great in TvZ too although perhaps I need to tweak my ratio, I feel like I am getting the tanks too late and perhaps too few. I open hellion/marauder and then add marines, tanks and medivacs on my first expansion but I keep making hellions from one factory still while making tanks from one. Perhaps I actually need to chill on the hellions after early game unless the zerg is still going with banelings/zerglings. Now that I think of it I usually end up loosing when the zerg composition is mainly pure roach/hydralisk. So if I am facing that kind of composition I should probably swap addons and push tanks from two factories instead of just one.I'll also consider pushing for a third sooner, I am struggling with convincing my brain to not be too satisfied with two bases. | ||
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Meta
United States6228 Posts
I definitely think this is the hardest matchup to play, as terran. You have to be on your toes about SO MUCH. You must not let them pump drones, you must out-expand them, you must apply pressure. It just requires so much. It's so hard to out-macro them when they take an early third. It's hard to apply pressure against roaches with anything short of stimmed MMM and tanks. Roach/hydra requires such little unit diversity and is so good against so many army compositions. I haven't won a tvz in days. In fact, since the last reset, I've probably only won about 15% of my games vs zerg (I'm about 1500 plat, right now). I've lost games versus zerg where my initial hellion harass has killed 10+ drones. I lost one game that I got pressured early by roaches, waited to push out and deal with it till I got my first banshee, and expanded. There was a window in that game of about 30 seconds where I had to attack, but I missed it and let him get away with making 15 drones at once. Although I read through the OP in this thread twice I'm still having trouble. I've got a lot of holes in my game I'm looking to patch up, but I just want to find a "standard" to perfect. I think the healthiest composition is MMM with tanks and thors depending on if they get mutas. I honestly think the best opening is fast expanding. Like, before your factory, behind your wall. Even then, I lose if I don't do economic damage before they hit lair. After hydras get out it's just so hard to kill drones. I've also been experimenting with point defense drone, but I don't think it's as clutch as in the other two matchups. I think I might try throwing ghosts in for snipe and nukes. Anyway, that's it for my rant. I think ultra-expanding is what I'm going to try next, after reading a bit more through this thread. | ||
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mols0n
Canada388 Posts
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TrialanError
United States41 Posts
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Mnijykmirl
United States299 Posts
I definitely think this is the hardest matchup to play, as terran I feel the opposite. TvP is way way way way way more difficult. Even TvT I think challenges more for scouting and micro and tech than TvZ. What are other terrans experience in TvZ in games that go on into macro games? I have lost a stunning 100% of my TvZ games that has gone beyond 15 minutes. Literally, if I don't kill the first expansion of the zerg with a timing push at 10 minutes then I loose, no matter what I do. My macro mechanics are just fine as I win all other matchups in long macro games but against zerg I just get mauled. Its not even close. Not using any mech play? It can take zerg in like a 1:2 resources lost ratio. And mech is one of those unit compositions that scales extremely well as it is a lot of splash and high damage attacks that get big bonuses from +1 upgrades. | ||
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dicember
United States50 Posts
On May 01 2010 07:21 Smodi wrote: A good overview for sure. I'd like to add a couple things to your overview of the 3 rax MM build, however, as it is by far my favorite build in tvz-I've yet to lose to zerg at platinum using this build every time. I do the exact same thing up to 15, unsurprisingly, but from there this is what i do differently- 16 bay+reactor on rax 18 rax (tech lab asap) 20/21 rax Add a reactor to the 2nd rax once you've started research on both +1 weapons AND combat shields. Marauders can start immediately off the 18 rax. From there, build until +1 and shields are done and push out (this roughly occurs at lots of marines/3-4 marauders). So what are the major benefits to this instead of the reactor/lab/lab build you described? Mainly, this build is ready to hit at the same time as the build you outlined, but with significantly more damage output due to +1 and a significantly larger rine count. With +1 and combat shields 2 marines are a good deal better than 1 marauder-they simply tear through lings and drone pulls, which is a legitimate concern going reactor/lab/lab. The last thing I like about the build is that the marauders are really only there as a meatshield as opposed to damage output, meaning it ought to be resilient to possible marauder nerfs. The major con to this build is vs a heavy roach build-but with +1 and combat shields, marines still do admirably. Additionally, proper scouting can spot a roach build before the 2nd reactor and switch accordingly (research stims instead of combat shields in this situation, as a heavy marauder force doesn't particularly benefit from shields). Finally, if the zerg player has not properly scouted they will often try to roach rush into this build and be wiped at your base easily (at which point your counter-push after upgrades will handily defeat them). Vs builds in general- + Show Spoiler + Any FE build As you already mentioned, this build is tailor made for punishing fe. It's highly unlikely they'll have the numbers to stop your push, and you will simply walk through to their base. Baneling Bust This is, unsurprisingly, a concern for most terran builds. Using this build makes a strong wall-in more complicated (as all your rax need addons), but still entirely doable. One option is to use your ebay as a part of the wall if you think a bust is coming-this will show your hand earlier than you'd like, so only do this if you're positive they're going for an early bust. I generally have ebay-rax-depot backed up by addon/depot for my wall if i think a bust is coming. Additionally, simply placing a marauder in front of your depot will help to soak the baneling damage and maintain your wall (smart zerg will scout this beforehand and send lings in first, so proper scouting on your part to get the marauder to safety is paramount). Assuming you beat the first rush, repair your wall and continue building into your push as normal. The second key stage comes when you actually get to their base-they will likely have additional banelings after seeing your build. The easiest way to deal with this is to simply sit your marauders and pull your marines as soon as the he makes a move with his banelings. Your marauders are probably boned, but the marines are the linchpin of the damage anyway, as they will easily clean up any speedlings coming in after the banelings. Roach builds I already went over this previously, but the main things to note are, once again, proper scouting and switching to lab/lab/reactor-though even reactor/lab/reactor will often beat roaches. Muta rush This is a fairly common build i see stemming from fe builds, so it's worth mentioning. Essentially, they'll hit your min line with mutas right around the time your ball hits their expo. Fortunately, you already have an ebay and will have the excess minerals for a couple turrets before you're ready to push anyway. Furthermore, your ball will clear their base MUCH faster than their mutas will clear yours, so simply pull your scvs to your production and let the building marines fend off their mutas until their base is dead. A couple replays for reference- + Show Spoiler + Fair warning-My main rts game before sc2 was company of heroes, so sometimes my micro/spotting is less than stellar. Also fair warning, Even with that handicap I haven't lost to zerg in a long time :D http://www.mediafire.com/file/jmdmyizokkn/FE punish.SC2Replay Here is a fairly standard example of the zerg fe. http://www.mediafire.com/file/zozmw4nj2zl/Roach rush.SC2Replay Here's a roach rush that is quickly turned into a rout for the zerg player. http://www.mediafire.com/?tvztdxdgyzu 1 base speedlings (and a haphazard attempt to get spinecrawlers), fairly easily destroyed. http://www.mediafire.com/file/tttijxmjtqh/Roaches.SC2Replay Roaches, again, but no rush (notice i fail to scout them here and stick to marines, AND let him get a lot of free damage from his ledge, but STILL push him to outside his base and simply outproduce him to win). http://www.mediafire.com/file/lxzzeztnymo/BanelingBust.SC2Replay Here's a recent baneling game-notice i am lazy and fail to full repair my wall, so a second bust manages to kill a rax and severely hurt my push timing. Even so, I'm able to pressure him enough to get siege out and ultimately push to win (even after a poor comsat to spot his hydras at the xel'naga). As a zerg player, it really depends on the map. If overlord can get sight of your 2 geisers without getting shot down, that is a huge advantage to zerg because we can pretty much extrapolate what build you are going just by seeing when you get your gasses. | ||
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dicember
United States50 Posts
On May 12 2010 10:17 ymirheim wrote: Thanks This is precisely what I need, someone to throw questions out there that I might not be considering due to getting too frustrated over my loosing streak. I actually do use tanks and I think they are great in TvZ too although perhaps I need to tweak my ratio, I feel like I am getting the tanks too late and perhaps too few. I open hellion/marauder and then add marines, tanks and medivacs on my first expansion but I keep making hellions from one factory still while making tanks from one. Perhaps I actually need to chill on the hellions after early game unless the zerg is still going with banelings/zerglings. Now that I think of it I usually end up loosing when the zerg composition is mainly pure roach/hydralisk. So if I am facing that kind of composition I should probably swap addons and push tanks from two factories instead of just one.I'll also consider pushing for a third sooner, I am struggling with convincing my brain to not be too satisfied with two bases. you need to keep up the pressure to prevent zerg from using all his larvae for drones. | ||
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dicember
United States50 Posts
On May 13 2010 14:27 Meta wrote: I'm bumping this to throw in my experiences in this matchup. I definitely think this is the hardest matchup to play, as terran. You have to be on your toes about SO MUCH. You must not let them pump drones, you must out-expand them, you must apply pressure. It just requires so much. It's so hard to out-macro them when they take an early third. It's hard to apply pressure against roaches with anything short of stimmed MMM and tanks. Roach/hydra requires such little unit diversity and is so good against so many army compositions. I haven't won a tvz in days. In fact, since the last reset, I've probably only won about 15% of my games vs zerg (I'm about 1500 plat, right now). I've lost games versus zerg where my initial hellion harass has killed 10+ drones. I lost one game that I got pressured early by roaches, waited to push out and deal with it till I got my first banshee, and expanded. There was a window in that game of about 30 seconds where I had to attack, but I missed it and let him get away with making 15 drones at once. Although I read through the OP in this thread twice I'm still having trouble. I've got a lot of holes in my game I'm looking to patch up, but I just want to find a "standard" to perfect. I think the healthiest composition is MMM with tanks and thors depending on if they get mutas. I honestly think the best opening is fast expanding. Like, before your factory, behind your wall. Even then, I lose if I don't do economic damage before they hit lair. After hydras get out it's just so hard to kill drones. I've also been experimenting with point defense drone, but I don't think it's as clutch as in the other two matchups. I think I might try throwing ghosts in for snipe and nukes. Anyway, that's it for my rant. I think ultra-expanding is what I'm going to try next, after reading a bit more through this thread. as a zerg, i gotta say that planetary fortress is so hard to deal with with any sort of ground army. You can just get so many scvs to repair, and before i can do enough damage, your ground army will be there to wipe up my battered remains. terran players should stop being so obsessed about mules or whatever the other command center upgrade is. planetary fortress is almost unkillable with ground army. | ||
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