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On May 04 2010 08:59 Kutsuki wrote:
What do you guys recommend against Sunken Colonies? For example, whether the Z decides to FE or 1 base, they may make 3 Sunken Colonies and won't push you until you engage the sunken colonies?
I find myself in a situation where I have to fight sunken colonies and many zerglings, they get the surround or i lose units a lot faster when I have to deal with them. A semi solution I found was simply, expand and try to contain them while teching up. Any thoughts welcomed!
RBGs take out buildings very quickly, especially with Hellion support.
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Hey OP, I got a question for you. This is from a Z player, so this is not only for me to know what to expect when I get to higher level of play but for others to know how to counter this if the time comes. Basically, I've been dabbling around with a mid-game strategy where I just throw down a Nydus Worm and put like, 20 lings in there, and unload in their main destroying their workers and their production buildings. If they retreat their army to defend, I'll push with my main army (be it Roach, or Roach/Hydra, or Muta, or what have you) and bust their front door into their natural and essentially win the game. It's worked a great deal of the time, and the only effective way I've seen people counter this is to keep a few marines spread in their base and if they see it starting to build, they stim up and kill the Nydus fast. But even then, most people unless you're ultra good can't always be lookign for that little dot of color; and also since basically nobody uses a Nydus Worm as far as i've seen so it's not like the average player is going to be paranoid and keep 8-10 marines spread out in their base -just in case-
Help your fellow T's out against this strat i've been wrecking them with. Oh, and if they keep their main army in the main, I'll just reverse it. Attack their front, and when they move to defend, I open up my Nydus Worm and ravage their base while they are distracted with the main battle.
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i mean, nydus worm takes awhile to build. it's easy to build depots all around your base and when you see it, just kill it.
it just takes watching the minimap, which, since i'm assuming you're playing noobs in silver or gold, doesn't happen very often. Nydus worm is a pretty jacked strat, but it isn't hard to stop if you plan ahead and anticipate.
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Yeah, I'm in Silver at the moment. 10th in my league right now. I've just been wrecking with this strat, along with getting tunnel claws for my Roaches and using a few to destroy a segment of his wall and then moving all of my army past it and into his main, and GG. Which of course is solved with missile turrets, but not many T's get that unless they see me go Spire. Back to the Nydus Worm though, even if they saw it coming in their base, they'd still be jacked up unless they got some sick static defense or some tanks at the front. Because if they got their army at their Nat or somewhere outside their base, by the time they get back to kill the worm (even if it doens't finish) I can just bust down their door and get into their base; and if I don't release the Lings I can just make another worm somewhere else. This is also very useful psycologically, because if I do this and it doesn't win the game, they will turtle up hardcore afraid of the harassment I could potentially do if they kept expanding. Which I would do, obviously.
I know it's pretty easy to beat, if you scout a Nydus Canal just put some marines with Stim in your main and use Supply Depots for spotting, but it's mainly a distraction not a game winner in of itself.
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Thanks for the replies everyone!
On May 01 2010 07:21 Smodi wrote:+ Show Spoiler +A good overview for sure. I'd like to add a couple things to your overview of the 3 rax MM build, however, as it is by far my favorite build in tvz-I've yet to lose to zerg at platinum using this build every time. I do the exact same thing up to 15, unsurprisingly, but from there this is what i do differently- 16 bay+reactor on rax 18 rax (tech lab asap) 20/21 rax Add a reactor to the 2nd rax once you've started research on both +1 weapons AND combat shields. Marauders can start immediately off the 18 rax. From there, build until +1 and shields are done and push out (this roughly occurs at lots of marines/3-4 marauders). So what are the major benefits to this instead of the reactor/lab/lab build you described? Mainly, this build is ready to hit at the same time as the build you outlined, but with significantly more damage output due to +1 and a significantly larger rine count. With +1 and combat shields 2 marines are a good deal better than 1 marauder-they simply tear through lings and drone pulls, which is a legitimate concern going reactor/lab/lab. The last thing I like about the build is that the marauders are really only there as a meatshield as opposed to damage output, meaning it ought to be resilient to possible marauder nerfs. The major con to this build is vs a heavy roach build-but with +1 and combat shields, marines still do admirably. Additionally, proper scouting can spot a roach build before the 2nd reactor and switch accordingly (research stims instead of combat shields in this situation, as a heavy marauder force doesn't particularly benefit from shields). Finally, if the zerg player has not properly scouted they will often try to roach rush into this build and be wiped at your base easily (at which point your counter-push after upgrades will handily defeat them).
Vs builds in general-+ Show Spoiler +
Any FE build
As you already mentioned, this build is tailor made for punishing fe. It's highly unlikely they'll have the numbers to stop your push, and you will simply walk through to their base.
Baneling Bust
This is, unsurprisingly, a concern for most terran builds. Using this build makes a strong wall-in more complicated (as all your rax need addons), but still entirely doable. One option is to use your ebay as a part of the wall if you think a bust is coming-this will show your hand earlier than you'd like, so only do this if you're positive they're going for an early bust. I generally have ebay-rax-depot backed up by addon/depot for my wall if i think a bust is coming. Additionally, simply placing a marauder in front of your depot will help to soak the baneling damage and maintain your wall (smart zerg will scout this beforehand and send lings in first, so proper scouting on your part to get the marauder to safety is paramount). Assuming you beat the first rush, repair your wall and continue building into your push as normal. The second key stage comes when you actually get to their base-they will likely have additional banelings after seeing your build. The easiest way to deal with this is to simply sit your marauders and pull your marines as soon as the he makes a move with his banelings. Your marauders are probably boned, but the marines are the linchpin of the damage anyway, as they will easily clean up any speedlings coming in after the banelings.
Roach builds
I already went over this previously, but the main things to note are, once again, proper scouting and switching to lab/lab/reactor-though even reactor/lab/reactor will often beat roaches.
Muta rush
This is a fairly common build i see stemming from fe builds, so it's worth mentioning. Essentially, they'll hit your min line with mutas right around the time your ball hits their expo. Fortunately, you already have an ebay and will have the excess minerals for a couple turrets before you're ready to push anyway. Furthermore, your ball will clear their base MUCH faster than their mutas will clear yours, so simply pull your scvs to your production and let the building marines fend off their mutas until their base is dead.
A couple replays for reference-+ Show Spoiler +
This is a cool variation, but it's still more or less the same concept: timing attack using 3 barracks off of one base. I like the fast +1 attack & fast shields though, it's worth mentioning.
On May 01 2010 09:50 CharlieMurphy wrote:
u forgot thor drop opening
as a zerg, even when u know it is coming - it is very annoying and difficult to deal with after you FE'd
Yeah, I know that's a great opening build, I can add that, but it's not a build I normally use, so I don't know it. Do you know where I can get a good replay of it?
On May 02 2010 02:35 Izslove wrote:
A fairly strong Z build you are missing is FE few lings as scouts/spotters then the ZZZ 5-6 Spine crawlers at natural Then transition to semi fast mutas.
The obvious counter to this is a thor based build but still annoying if you try some 3 rax early hit build and then get to their base and there is a wall of spine crawlers and then the next thing you know you have 4-5 mutas wailing on yo SCV's >_<
I may add that in, but that really falls under zerg FE. It should go without saying that if you spot crawlers going up, you should attack before he is able to get 5-6, or you can expand at that point. I could possibly add a section on dealing with certain zerg mid-game & end-game armies.
On May 04 2010 01:52 Shaithis wrote:
Nice thread. Quick addition to the Terran Openings section:
Fast / Mass Ravens - similar build order as fast banshees, except that you make a 2nd rax in lieu of a starport (Each base can constantly produce ravens from one starport with some gas left over for upgrades).
Objective is to constantly harass with auto-turrets, upgrading their armor and range at the eBay, while securing an island expansion or PF + bunkered natural and continuing to mass ravens + marines. Auto-turrets are surprisingly durable vs Zerg, and can be used to block off wide stretches of space.
If the Zerg starts making roaches, it's simple to mix in banshees and RBGs from already existing production facilities.
The perfect map for this opening is Desert Oasis, however it may also work on Incineration Zone and Scrap Station.
need replays, at least 3 @ platinum level showing this build succeeding, or if you can point me to a top player using it that's fine.
On May 04 2010 09:25 t3hw0lf wrote:
It is a very interesting topic, but none of the strategies include bunkers. I'm not talking bunker rush, but just simple bunkers. Almost any cheese ling/s-ling/b-ling die to bunkers and they are cheap and have 3x more health than depos. You can choose to FE against almost any zerg if you add 2-3 bunkers and have sub-par micro.
My favorite build is not mentioned. I play ghosts/hellions and I win ALL of my TvZ games because ghosts are a bit OP to zerg. I think i've seen a few threats about this opening.
Tkx,
-tw
Yes I can add a section on bunkers, they should always be used against 1 base zerg.
As for the ghost/hellion build, I'm skeptical, but it could work, if you are willing to provide at least 3 plat level replays showing this build winning, I will gladly add it.
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Great guide!
I'm having fun using a very mixed harass versus FE zerg, currently 8th plat, but I'm in a terrible league so that doesn't mean much =)
I go 10 rax reaper rush, into fast fact/starport then continuously pump marauders/helions and banshees from the 3 production buildings attacking everytime i have 3-4 units ready (I add a second rax for marines when i have the cash).
The trick is to focus the right units, so for example focus fire the hydras down, then even once they finish off your ground units, you have an unchallenged banshee to cause damage until the next waves spawn.
It's very, very messy but is a lot of fun because your constantly micro-ing small fights. Muta's would be a hard counter to this but most zerg seem to go hydras as a counter when the first banshee shows up for some reason?
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could someone PLEASE make a zerg version of this thread? ZvT at a plat level?
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I am having an absolute ton of trouble with zergs who make a very fast 6-8 mutas or so, use those to harass while cranking a ton of drones, and then switching to a total ground based army, which is often roach heavy. I find it very difficult to get any offense going - if I try to leave without leaving enough marines/turrets at home, his muta attack my scvs as soon as I leave. By the time I have my base defended against the mutas, he will have enough ground forces and spine crawlers by the time I can walk across the map to attack, but he will have made a ton of drones before that. The fast mutas come out so quick that they tend to shut down most harassments that I've tried, like hellions, hellion drops, and banshees or vikings. I can't find a way to get to the midgame without being really far behind economically.
I can defend it well enough, it's just finding some opportunity to actually be offensive and slow down his drone production somehow that I am struggling with.
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great post! appreciated very much! thankyou =]
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On May 05 2010 09:47 BigOleDonkey wrote:
I am having an absolute ton of trouble with zergs who make a very fast 6-8 mutas or so, use those to harass while cranking a ton of drones, and then switching to a total ground based army, which is often roach heavy. I find it very difficult to get any offense going - if I try to leave without leaving enough marines/turrets at home, his muta attack my scvs as soon as I leave. By the time I have my base defended against the mutas, he will have enough ground forces and spine crawlers by the time I can walk across the map to attack, but he will have made a ton of drones before that. The fast mutas come out so quick that they tend to shut down most harassments that I've tried, like hellions, hellion drops, and banshees or vikings. I can't find a way to get to the midgame without being really far behind economically.
I can defend it well enough, it's just finding some opportunity to actually be offensive and slow down his drone production somehow that I am struggling with.
2-4 Turrets in your base and a single Thor completely negates Muta. Thors are also incredibly strong vs Hydra, transitioning into something like Thor/Marauder then adding on Hellions just before you push out or Thor/Tank/Marines can counter a large number of their builds. If you want to try to keep his drone count down you can get a few Hellions earlier to keep the harass up till you are ready to push.
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Just wanted to say fantastic post BlasiuS, this is EXACTLY the kind of thing I've been looking for.
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No fast tech thor drops ? gosh !
But ya anyone got any favs for dealing with FE zerg i just can't deal with them. i open hellion hars get a few kills somtimes pull back. Try to get a Marauder hellion push in and break them most times they have like 8 spinecrawlers up and it just doesn't/won't work so i pull back.
Or after the hellion push i go into thors cause they are fast teching mutas so try and get thors to deal with them but they just dance around my 1 thor and rape the sides and don't let me expand till i get like 3 thors or 2 thors and a few missle turrents. By that time they ethier have a huge ground army and can't push out or they have expanded for the 3 rd time or have a huge muta ball and pick off / roll over the thors cause they are spread out trying to deal with the harsment.
Just can't seem to break them early or do the dmg needed to slow them down even if i get the like 6 - 8 drones they just seem to keep on ticking then the spinecrawler walls are so gay can't get by them. If i try and tech to air to do some drops the mutas are out in time and just rape me : /
If they go into hydras roach or banling bust im fine of FE just can't deal with the fast mutas/ spinecrawler wall of death anyone?
Ps i see this build alot on the asian server replays just wall with spinecrawlers and fast tech to mutas maybe why they zerg owns the asian servers /shrug
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BlasiuS: What do you suggest against Sunken Colonies, so far I have no luck against 3 sunken colonies + his army. If I see it, I feel the only effective move is to immediately expand. I've tried rushing to tanks and adding reapers to my build without any success. Bunkering doesn't work as well because the sunken colonies can out range your bunkers. Any suggestions or comments? Have you successfully pushed a Zerg player with 3 sunken and his army?
What I commonly come across are like Zerg FE with 3 sunken and they zergling to hydra or zergling to banelings.
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On May 05 2010 12:43 Kutsuki wrote:
BlasiuS: What do you suggest against Sunken Colonies, so far I have no luck against 3 sunken colonies + his army. If I see it, I feel the only effective move is to immediately expand. I've tried rushing to tanks and adding reapers to my build without any success. Bunkering doesn't work as well because the sunken colonies can out range your bunkers. Any suggestions or comments? Have you successfully pushed a Zerg player with 3 sunken and his army?
What I commonly come across are like Zerg FE with 3 sunken and they zergling to hydra or zergling to banelings.
I assume you mean zerg that FE -> add immediate sunken. Well there's a few things you can do, but your response depends on what you opened with.
If you opened with FE, you are way ahead because while you are macroing up your 2 bases, he is wasting resources on static d. You should concentrate on scouting out what his lair tech is, either muta or hydra, and countering it.
If you opened with 1 base tech of some kind, it depends on what you did. hellions are rendered useless by 3+ spine crawlers. However banshees are of course unaffected, and if he delays his lair in order to put down spine crawlers, your banshee harass will be more effective.
If you opened with 1 base 3 rax MM, you need to be actively scouting and respond immediately. You should either scout more & attack before the crawlers are up, or expand immediately once you see them go down.
Also you should note that this is really only effective on maps that don't have a backdoor entrance, which are metalopolis, LT, and steppes. On incineration zone, desert oasis, blistering sands, kulas ravine, and scrap station, you always have the option of busting down the rocks and forcing him to split up his crawlers.
I will add a section about responding to multiple crawlers, as soon as I find some suitable replays of how to deal with it.
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I just want to thank you for this thread, it really helped me for TvZ.
I'm 30ish platinum, and I must say MM timing push is really good against most of zergs atm, as marauders can kill spine crawlers, and marines handle quite well lings.
As you say in your previous post, a good timing is fundamental as you can attack his expand when spine crawlers are building. Handling one or even two is not a big deal.
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Skipping stim for a 3 rax timing push is fine? I've been feeling that without stim my guys just don't do enough damage and would prefer it over combat shields but it's more likely my timing is wrong.
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MAKE A TVT AND TVP GUIDE!!!
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AH! i cant find it anywhere but a perfect example of hellion ghosts is
Orcmaniac(T)_vs_eNtitY(P)_Lost_Temple_from_sc2rc.com_85f2d971dce65f0c084ecb2caf778e9a.SC2Replay
im pretty sure that is it but i cant find it on sc2win anymore
he snipes a roach army to death, hellions blings and snipes mutas/blings like crazy, he also decides to nuke instead of tank the spine c's good use of medvac as well, ive tried it but even tho im #1 plat right now i have no where near the apm to use the build.
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I dont really agree that a majority of the maps have a backdoor
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Uh...Scrap Station rocks aren't a "backdoor"...they're just a shortcut to the front door.
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EPT
