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I am finding that cheese strategies generally don't occur at the platinum level. Players are good enough that these strategies are easily beaten so most people give up on trying them. I am also noticing that platinum has gravitated towards more greedy eco heavy starting builds. I have been getting frustrated playing against this, particularly against zerg. Zerg saturates so fast and I have a lot of trouble putting on effective early punishment with spine crawlers queens and roaches turtling up so fast. Admittedly, I'm not a very good player yet. My micro is poor in general and when I focus hard on micro I slack off on macro and still fall behind. I have found that toe to toe I generally lose to platinum players if I allow them to do their regular build orders without harassment.
I have started doing very early cannon pushes against greedy zerg who open with a hatch and a late pool and I have won almost 100% of the time. I can beat them even if they scout what I am doing, even when they stick a worker on my scouting probe. I throw down a pylon against a wall to prevent surround and stream in zealots. If they take workers off mineral line I've pretty much won... I can keep workers busy all day trying to destroy pylons. pylons are cheap and I get most of the minerals back anyway when I cancel right before it gets destroyed. Eventually the player is going to be faced with the option of attacking the zealots streaming into his base or attacking the buildings as the zealots butcher them.
This cheese has been so effective that I started doing it in all matchups if the oponent is going hard early eco. In fact, I have noticed that my opponents delay army production or FE almost every game. As a result I have gotten into the top 8 platinum bracket just by punishing eco heavy starting builds.
This strategy is actually a lot of fun and has been great practice for building up my micro. Games can be really close and intense, although the opponents are usually pretty pissed when they lose to this. It has also been pretty good practice maintaining my macro as I am putting on the pressure. I have had success transitioning from my cannon push to void rays or expanding everywhere while the oponent is freaking out and trying to mass units.
I kind of have mixed feeling about the strat. Sometimes I win outright and the opponent rages and calls me names, but dude, If I let you fast expand and delay your production for the first 5 minutes its going to be a 45 minute game that I usually lose. Cannon push games that go longer are soooo much fun to play. Army sizes never get too large and it stays pretty intense all the way through. I have noticed that when I lose a long game with big armies I don't always know what I did wrong. Even worse is how quickly large armies are able to obliterate eachother, some minor positioning mistake or hitting the wrong key results in a game loss.
Standard early gateway harass = fail because zealots are so easy to kite. cannons are a great back up and also allows more of my minerals to get into their face sooner rather than slowly streaming in. I know standard build pressure works... but its really really close. Ive watched too many pro pvz games where the early harass gets blocked by queen/ling/spine and the immortal push just cant get there soon enough to bust the FE. I'm not saying there is an imbalance here, just that I find it a heck of a lot harder to deal with if I dont punish with cannons. Also... I often get my ass beat if I try to cannon against faster builds. I really have to be on top of my macro or playing against someone worse than me to try this against someone playing more standard.
Anyway here are some replays vs all matchups
PvZ ... split their forces = win
PvZ all in cannons
PvP transition to void rays. He repells the cannons but is still put behind
PvP using smoke screen to hide canons even though he scouted me
PvT Kind of a sloppy game but transition to mass expo
PvT I feel kind of bad about this one, but I was practicing cannons anyway. No hard feelings mate
Let me know what you guys think. Could this cheese possibly be a respectable response to FE// late production or am I just a jackass? Respond/Flame away
Edit: It just occured to me a lot of people are going to say all you have to do is rush my base with some units and its gg for me. I dont think i needed to do this in any of the replays I posted but a few quick tips:
#1 Forges are amazing: they have more hp than a gateway and build faster than any protoss building. Some games where they send army to kill my probes I can win just by filling my choke with forges. They build so fast that they accumulate a lot of shield/hp quickly... gives me time to build more units or throw a cannon behind the forge.
#2 Build your producion at the choke for your natural, it gives zealots a shorter walking distance and also makes their scout think you're going for a fast expo not a rush. Also since you only need one gateway he wont be expecting what is essentially the equivalent of a 2gate crono rush
#3 Build first pylon and cannon out of sight range if he's not harassing your scout then expand toward one of the gas nodes. Starve the gas and he will have a harder time busting your cannons with just tier 1. If he is scouting you throw the pylon really close to mineral line. Try to get him to pull workers. He will be sending his early units to kill pylon while your zealots streaming in can take out buildings at his choke. Vs zerg always get your zeals to the canon/pylon as soon as possible.
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A rush works against a fast expand? wow, new to me
discuss
User was warned for this post
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so you're complaining that cheese is boring, yet you do it every game?
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Ignoring the above sarcasm, I think this is a pretty good OP. There's a fine line between an econ build that can defend against early pressure and one that cannot. I think most people are still figuring out exactly where that line is. Right now though, I agree, in most games it seems like players are just haphazardly powering early. Even the high level zerg tourney play I've been watching lately there's been a lot of early expanding and powering resulting in an abrupt loss following a solid P/T timing push.
Not saying FE never works, I just think there's a lot more games that need to be played before we find out exactly when it works.
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why should you cheese, if you know your macro/micro is better? usually i dont cheese, cause most of the time i think i wont have problems in mid-/lategame if i get into that phase without disadvantage.
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Interesting. I'll watch the reps shortly.
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is their such thing as chees at the pro level? would you "cheese" your way to victory for a couple grand?
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Actually I think that pylons give you 100% return on cancel. At least I once played a zvp, I killed my opponent's base including the Nexus. He ran around placing pylons and canceling them. Later I watched the replays and he definitely got the full 100 minerals on cancel. This was a few patches ago though.
Anyways, many players are trying to figure out how much they can get away with. Usually the more economic build wins in SC2 unless the timing window is large enough to allow the other player to attack. Then some people like you will emerge and seize those timing windows. Figuring this stuff out is necessary for a better understanding of the game (for the community as a whole as well as the individual). Be happy that you are currently winning a lot. Tomorrow you might be the one who loses all the time 
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it seems like you could keep a zerg on one base but all they really need to do to stop a cannon rush is throw down spine crawlers...
and it doesn't sound too cheesy.... If you scout they're doing an eco build and put early pressure on with cannons and zealots it sounds pretty reasonable as long as you can protect your main. Cannon shit was always called stupid because you open forge pylon, if they kill your first cannon you're way behind and it's pretty much over. Nor is it hard to do that if the player scouts his main.
Teching to void rays seems like a nice transition since they're more mobile than immortals and the zerg will probably just be going mass roaches to break your cannon contain.
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I suggest you start going 10 pylon 11 gate against zerg. If you chrono boost 2-3 zealots out there he will have to mass lings instead of drones. While you are microing against his lings and hatchery you keep teching and building pylons/probes and you will often times have a vastly superior economy as zergs that get pressured often overproduce lings.
After this you can transition into almost anything. I like the void ray transition if I did alot of damage or a 4-5 gate timing is also great. Just take advantage of the fact that he made lings early and force him to make anti air or even more lings or roaches when he wants to drone up.
If he is a smart player he will see the early gate and steal your second gas. If you ignore it you can harass him and expand with cannons or sometimes only units. If you kill it well then you have to play standard from that point and his 25 mineral loss is probably about equal to the mins and tech time you lose from a 10 pylon 11 gate so it doesn't matter that much but I definately preffer going on with the harass.
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On April 30 2010 02:28 DuneBug wrote:
it seems like you could keep a zerg on one base but all they really need to do to stop a cannon rush is throw down spine crawlers...
Until the hatch is finished you can't put spine crawlers down ( no spare creep to do it on ) - and while the hatch is building the vision is extremely limited ( easily allowing cannon placement out of vision ).
Interestingly though zerg could put a hatch cancel down at the natural's choke - creep tumour it and then put crawlers down before expanding - if they really wanted to and thought the cost was worthwhile.
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I only ever get cheesed by toss players. (I play toss). it is really annoying.
Stopping offensive cannon/gate in your base is incredibly counter-intuitive and really really annoying. On some maps the toss can put the pylon below the plateau of your base then build Gateways inside your base off its power. That seems virtually impossible to stop unless you notice the gate within 3 seconds of it being started.
Even when I scout on 8 I don't necessarily find out what he is doing until it is too late to do an optimal counter build. I guess I can be paranoid and just explore my entire base every game, but then I have a disadvantage versus a non-cheese player. Gah.
Pulling workers is pretty much the worst thing you can do. In PvP I end up just 9/10 gating every single game because of this on smaller maps. Then the other Toss'es that don't cheese complain for some reason about me doing 9/11 gate builds and call me cheesy. PvP is such ridiculously escalated inter-racial violence. There are no winners TT
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Congratulations on abusing the metagame! If you don't mix in standard play, though, you will be a low win % player when everyone learns to play 5% safer
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I baneling bust Terran on kulas because I think terran has too much of an advantage on that map. Mostly I just think the FE location is so terrible that you need to do something like that rather than take such a awful expo.
Also I got proxy gate rushed the other day.
I'm in Platinum
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When you FE you are taking the risk of being pressured early. If you get cheese because you FE'ed, then its your bad, no one else's.
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Zerg has to FE vs P or T, unless you do some kinda bling bust
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On April 30 2010 02:41 maleorderbride wrote:
I only ever get cheesed by toss players. (I play toss). it is really annoying.
Stopping offensive cannon/gate in your base is incredibly counter-intuitive and really really annoying. On some maps the toss can put the pylon below the plateau of your base then build Gateways inside your base off its power. That seems virtually impossible to stop unless you notice the gate within 3 seconds of it being started.
Even when I scout on 8 I don't necessarily find out what he is doing until it is too late to do an optimal counter build. I guess I can be paranoid and just explore my entire base every game, but then I have a disadvantage versus a non-cheese player. Gah.
Pulling workers is pretty much the worst thing you can do. In PvP I end up just 9/10 gating every single game because of this on smaller maps. Then the other Toss'es that don't cheese complain for some reason about me doing 9/11 gate builds and call me cheesy. PvP is such ridiculously escalated inter-racial violence. There are no winners TT
Lol I tend to agree. I usually scout with my 9/10 pylon building probe and if I don't see any gates when i get to their base, I assume the worst and start scouting my base like mad. I always early 2 gate vs toss with a possible 3rd/4th added on later. It makes me feel warm and fuzzy inside :D
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I don't see it as platinum players being lazy who go for heavy econ builds. The best builds in sc1 are those that can let you easily defend your FE and come into the late game with a high economic advantage. And thats pretty much what you said the zerg FE build is doing conisdering you are "having a hard time harassing".
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On April 30 2010 02:46 Shambler wrote:
Zerg has to FE vs P or T, unless you do some kinda bling bust
I win plenty of games without FE as Zerg. And by FE I mean expand right after or right before pool. It's not impossible to play without an expansion. Like the OP said you can't always FE you will be punished if you run up against someone like him.
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On April 30 2010 02:53 ManiacTheZealot wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2010 02:46 Shambler wrote:
Zerg has to FE vs P or T, unless you do some kinda bling bust I win plenty of games without FE as Zerg. And by FE I mean expand right after or right before pool. It's not impossible to play without an expansion. Like the OP said you can't always FE you will be punished if you run up against someone like him.
Dito. I fe only rarely, usually I do something like pool gas queen lair expand. Works like a charm.
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On April 30 2010 02:53 ManiacTheZealot wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2010 02:46 Shambler wrote:
Zerg has to FE vs P or T, unless you do some kinda bling bust I win plenty of games without FE as Zerg. And by FE I mean expand right after or right before pool. It's not impossible to play without an expansion. Like the OP said you can't always FE you will be punished if you run up against someone like him.
To be fair, as Zerg a slow expansion is around 20-25 supply, which is quite speedy compared to other races.
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I'd hazard a guess that most players enjoy the longer games, rather than quick easy wins.
To extend that argument, we know that the average game length is going to get longer as players start to understand the fragile balance between eco and defence hence we're learning as much as the late game as possible.
Also, long eco games aren't as lazy as cheesing, long eco games with 4+ expansions are hard work, after a long one I have to take a break.
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Like was already stated, plat players aren't trying to be greedy by fast expanding, they're trying to advance their game sense. In SC1 fast expands became the norm precisely because they found builds that were safe against rushes and forced the opponent to either follow with an expand of his own or try a timing push that had a low success chance.
Those are the kinds of builds people are trying to discover for sc2. Go ahead, rush them, they'll adjust their build to be safe against rushes with the practice. And once they do they'll win every game against people that 1 base. And if there is no safe FE build that's probably an indication something needs to change TBH. If sc2 forces you to stay on 1 base in order to survive then it has failed as a macro game that sc1 was.
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You can almost always FE zvp and zvt.
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On April 30 2010 03:05 Feefee wrote:
Like was already stated, plat players aren't trying to be greedy by fast expanding, they're trying to advance their game sense. In SC1 fast expands became the norm precisely because they found builds that were safe against rushes and forced the opponent to either follow with an expand of his own or try a timing push that had a low success chance.
Those are the kinds of builds people are trying to discover for sc2. Go ahead, rush them, they'll adjust their build to be safe against rushes with the practice. And once they do they'll win every game against people that 1 base. And if there is no safe FE build that's probably an indication something needs to change TBH. If sc2 forces you to stay on 1 base in order to survive then it has failed as a macro game that sc1 was.
Proxy barracks beats 14 nexus. Cheese beats economic strats. Thats just how things are.
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On April 30 2010 03:11 DragonDefonce wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2010 03:05 Feefee wrote:
Like was already stated, plat players aren't trying to be greedy by fast expanding, they're trying to advance their game sense. In SC1 fast expands became the norm precisely because they found builds that were safe against rushes and forced the opponent to either follow with an expand of his own or try a timing push that had a low success chance.
Those are the kinds of builds people are trying to discover for sc2. Go ahead, rush them, they'll adjust their build to be safe against rushes with the practice. And once they do they'll win every game against people that 1 base. And if there is no safe FE build that's probably an indication something needs to change TBH. If sc2 forces you to stay on 1 base in order to survive then it has failed as a macro game that sc1 was. Proxy barracks beats 14 nexus. Cheese beats economic strats. Thats just how things are.
14 nex is macro cheese. I'm not talking about expanding before making unit producing buildings, I'm talking about expands that are reasonably safe. Obviously everyone in SC knows 14 nexus ISN'T a safe expand, they just do it because of the metagame.
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On April 30 2010 03:11 DragonDefonce wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2010 03:05 Feefee wrote:
Like was already stated, plat players aren't trying to be greedy by fast expanding, they're trying to advance their game sense. In SC1 fast expands became the norm precisely because they found builds that were safe against rushes and forced the opponent to either follow with an expand of his own or try a timing push that had a low success chance.
Those are the kinds of builds people are trying to discover for sc2. Go ahead, rush them, they'll adjust their build to be safe against rushes with the practice. And once they do they'll win every game against people that 1 base. And if there is no safe FE build that's probably an indication something needs to change TBH. If sc2 forces you to stay on 1 base in order to survive then it has failed as a macro game that sc1 was. Proxy barracks beats 14 nexus. Cheese beats economic strats. Thats just how things are.
I disagree, I open economically more often than not and when I see a player cheese it's a sigh of relief, this game is in the bag 
edit: EXCEPT GODDAMN BANSHEE RUSH xD
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On April 30 2010 03:14 Feefee wrote:
14 nex is macro cheese.
Macro cheese. Good term imo people don't think of it that way but it totally is. I hate to see a player who can totally be GG'd instantly getting away with it. You see it so much though. Like that PvZ early expo build Nazgul does on Blistering Sands. When the Zerg expands instead of just Nydus roaches and get a free win I get annoyed.
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It's actually very hard to fend of cannons after their 100 hp increase, they don't die at all it feels like, I took around 8 drones off to fight off cannons once and he just kept morphing them faster than I could kill them, and they finished before my pool was done (14 hatch 13 pool). Same happened with Terran when I went 14 CC, but the kid overbuilt cannons and as my second CC finished I literally just transferred all my SCVs to the second base and was 100% fine (he cannon rushed my main on Blistering Sands, I was in the bottom left and he moved his probe tot he right shrouded area and built like 6 cannons in the end after all my SCVs were pulled and the super late first marine arrived). Floated my main CC to the other base and won that way.
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would it be a viable strategy on 2 player map to go 9 pylon then scout..throw down forge at 12 then blindly place 2nd pylon in front of zerg choke then make cannons? will the timing work vs 14 pool?
you can sim city around their choke to surround cannons with pylon to minimize attack area...
i'll try this when i get home today :p
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On April 30 2010 03:50 The6357 wrote:
would it be a viable strategy on 2 player map to go 9 pylon then scout..throw down forge at 12 then blindly place 2nd pylon in front of zerg choke then make cannons? will the timing work vs 14 pool?
you can sim city around their choke to surround cannons with pylon to minimize attack area...
i'll try this when i get home today :p
No I don't believe it works vs pool first. If anything drones could delay long enough for lings. But realize at the same time lings kill cannons ridiculously slow compared to SC1; lings have slower DPS AND cannons are 50% stronger.
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I start every game saying I will play normal, not proxy until I want to attack at which point Ill bring a probe along and drop a pylon down to warp in reinforcements.
But I mean, when you see someone not even try to chase your probe out? Its too hard to resist the temptation of someone who will let you drop pylons in their base.
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On April 30 2010 02:27 Cooloff wrote:
is their such thing as chees at the pro level? would you "cheese" your way to victory for a couple grand?
No, there is not. You sir seems to be a reasonable person.
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This is a nice strat but if you are going up against a person in a Bo5 you will never win because they will expect the strat from you. Try learning how to do a macro up as well to make your general play stronger.
On April 30 2010 03:11 DragonDefonce wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2010 03:05 Feefee wrote:
Like was already stated, plat players aren't trying to be greedy by fast expanding, they're trying to advance their game sense. In SC1 fast expands became the norm precisely because they found builds that were safe against rushes and forced the opponent to either follow with an expand of his own or try a timing push that had a low success chance.
Those are the kinds of builds people are trying to discover for sc2. Go ahead, rush them, they'll adjust their build to be safe against rushes with the practice. And once they do they'll win every game against people that 1 base. And if there is no safe FE build that's probably an indication something needs to change TBH. If sc2 forces you to stay on 1 base in order to survive then it has failed as a macro game that sc1 was. Proxy barracks beats 14 nexus. Cheese beats economic strats. Thats just how things are.
Yea proxy rax beats 14 nexus but people are trying to discover what they can get away with without losing to some cheese. There have been games where zerg gets 3 bases while toss has 2 before even attacking each other because they both know all the possiblites and rushes with 1 or 2 bases.
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And if there is no safe FE build that's probably an indication something needs to change TBH. If sc2 forces you to stay on 1 base in order to survive then it has failed as a macro game that sc1 was.
I completely disagree with this. Being able to do a safe FE means that it is what everyone has to do. It reduces options. It removes strategy.
If FE builds are not safe, that doesn't mean people won't do them. FE builds should always be a risk, something you can punish a player for if you detect it. This forces a player to disguise their FE as something else.
There's nothing wrong with the safe econ build being 1-base. You then have FE as the risky, greedy econ builds, and rushes as the risky, aggressive builds.
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Its fine to do it once in a whilw but not every game. Learn to be play a standard game as well. If you can do that you wont have to rely on cheese and your game will improve much more.
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When bliz was resetting the ladder a lot and you are doing 5 placement matches a day, it gets tempting to cheAse
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It seems like a legit strategy against a FE.
I love playing against cheese like this because I never FE. It's instant win for me. In gold league it seems like all anyone has is cheesy builds, especially the random players. From my experience about 1 out of 5 players will do a standard build, which usually end up being good games and I win about half of those. A lot of times those will be against people in plat, hopefully it will be moving me up to a plat league soon.
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On April 30 2010 02:41 nodule wrote:
Congratulations on abusing the metagame! If you don't mix in standard play, though, you will be a low win % player when everyone learns to play 5% safer
im not sure why you act like its a bad thing. this is how "metagames" develop, Someone finds a weakness and exploits it. then, everyone else adapts if it catches on.
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FE is very effective for the zerg because they have lings which are so cheap and are good harrassment workers. Your cannon rush against the zerg FE may seem to be very effective but it will not work against a player who knows how to counter this strat. Once you start to get ur cannons or pylon the zerg should cancel his hatchery and start getting roaches while harrasing ur empty base with lings. Cheese builds are effective because it forces the opponent to react accordingly and put in under a lot of pressure and if he does not react properly it will cost him the game.
If we spend resources getting the cannon up and forge obviously your army will be small and u will be behind in tech. The zerg who sees an empty base should know to cancel the FE and get spinecrawlers in his main and mass up roaches to fight zealot cheese. Now zerg has the queen with the ability to spawn larvae so production is not an issue for the zerg player going off one base unlike in sc1 where FE is almost required for the zerg.
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The standard zerg eco build is now 14 pool, 15 hatch. It gets your pool out relatively quickly, and if someone comes in for the cheese, you have some lings to handle it - while still having time to cancel your hatch if you need to. If you double build queens on your first base, the second pops out just after the 2nd hatch finishes.
I feel like this cannons strat will work - for a time. The key here is to scout (as always). If you see it, at 10/10, build your pool then. If you see it after your pool already went down at 14, you need to build 2 sunkens immediately. The first queen ability you should pull out is creep tumor so you can spread it around your base to prevent cannon from getting close.
From there, you have some options. Tech to one of either: drop, nydus, muta - but I wouldn't try and take the cannon headstrong. It's much easier to just go around them.
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On April 30 2010 06:37 kameelyan wrote:
The standard zerg eco build is now 14 pool, 15 hatch. It gets your pool out relatively quickly, and if someone comes in for the cheese, you have some lings to handle it - while still having time to cancel your hatch if you need to. If you double build queens on your first base, the second pops out just after the 2nd hatch finishes.
I feel like this cannons strat will work - for a time. The key here is to scout (as always). If you see it, at 10/10, build your pool then. If you see it after your pool already went down at 14, you need to build 2 sunkens immediately. The first queen ability you should pull out is creep tumor so you can spread it around your base to prevent cannon from getting close.
From there, you have some options. Tech to one of either: drop, nydus, muta - but I wouldn't try and take the cannon headstrong. It's much easier to just go around them.
cannons have detection right? Wouldn't they just one shot the creep tumor?
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You would put the tumor just out of range of the cannons, and that would expand your creep to very close to the cannons. Then you can build spine crawlers around your hatch, uproot them, and move them into range of the cannons.
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Platinum is not any sort of high level play. Even #1 platinum in most divisions is basically d/d+ level on iccup. You just made a post about how usually 'good' players are getting lazy when they were never good at all.
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Couple things.
It sounds like you have a solid understanding of the early game and have competent micro skills. This is enough to get you into the top 10 in Platinum by using proxy strategies. Period.
The trouble with only playing the early game is that you will only understand and have experience with the early game. Eventually, these players who do not scout proxys and who have too little defense with their fast expansions will scout the proxys and will have a little more defense, and what do you do then when they can continue to move into that late, economic game that you never win?
Finally, I'm not sure what you mean by "being lazy," but I'll assume you mean that players who favor a fast, heavy economic build are lazy. I don't think you would call them lazy in Brood War, which has a heavy focus on economic games. I would say that Brood War players have more finesse and understanding of overall mechanics, though, so they can avoid being "cheesed." I'm fairly confident we'll see the same trends in Starcraft 2, once players become more competent. The economic builds just require a deeper understanding of the game than a one-base, all-in type strategy, which most players tend to favor at the moment, which is only natural considering they can't possibly have a deep understanding of the game, yet.
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plat isnt hard to get into. i've played against plently of plat players who seemed to play like their in copper league.
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The platinum rankings atm are a bit of a joke with the new bug thats going on where everyone is favoured anyway, it basically turns it into a who has the more wins contest rather than a more skill-based contest like it was before patch 9/10. Hoping they change it before release =\
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On April 30 2010 08:06 faction123 wrote:
Platinum is not any sort of high level play. Even #1 platinum in most divisions is basically d/d+ level on iccup. You just made a post about how usually 'good' players are getting lazy when they were never good at all.
Your first statement is complete and utter bullshit. This might be true in very rare circumstances but i can assure you most people who are #1 platinum are better than D+
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Yeah platinum is nothing special, hopefully blizzard will remedy this. Along with the topic tho...
It seems that USA Players are trying to jump past the whole figuring out offensive builds and are moving into the BW mentality of the safe FEs. By doing what you're diong you're definitely helping the community move forward by understanding early offensives and soon we'll understand how to combat that while making the FE.
Once that happens...you may be forced to learn mid->endgame. =D
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I always FE and have gotten cannnon rushed so easy to push back, by the time you send your zealot you may get to my main with it but I will have zerglings just popping out to stop it but keep doing the cheese play if its fun do it it just doesn't help you improve in the long run
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You, sir, are one of the many reasons I rarely ever 13pool vs P anymore.
On April 30 2010 08:56 Divinek wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2010 08:06 faction123 wrote:
Platinum is not any sort of high level play. Even #1 platinum in most divisions is basically d/d+ level on iccup. You just made a post about how usually 'good' players are getting lazy when they were never good at all. Your first statement is complete and utter bullshit. This might be true in very rare circumstances but i can assure you most people who are #1 platinum are better than D+
not by much. I was ranked 1 earlier today and I'm only C- iccup.
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If they lose to a cannon rush they scout late, don't notice buildings missing from your main and react slowly. All they need to do is build spine crawlers to stop the line of cannons from advancing.
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On April 30 2010 09:11 zomgzergrush wrote:You, sir, are one of the many reasons I rarely ever 13pool vs P anymore. Show nested quote +On April 30 2010 08:56 Divinek wrote:On April 30 2010 08:06 faction123 wrote:
Platinum is not any sort of high level play. Even #1 platinum in most divisions is basically d/d+ level on iccup. You just made a post about how usually 'good' players are getting lazy when they were never good at all. Your first statement is complete and utter bullshit. This might be true in very rare circumstances but i can assure you most people who are #1 platinum are better than D+ not by much. I was ranked 1 earlier today and I'm only C- iccup.
i was the one who over took you (ive been holding it on and off for a while) and i didnt even play iccup. GFG.
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I think early Z units are strong to compensate for the role Blizzard decided to give them in SC2. They *decided* that Zerg should be able to fast expand pretty safely versus all races if they micro well, but forgot that Zerg has been completely changed. They're no longer the fragile mass-up race that they were. Roaches and Hydras are tanks with incredible dps, and mutas are stronger than ever (disregarding skilled muta micro in SC1).
The problem right now is the limitations on builds. I find myself going mass marauders on a platinum level against almost every matchup, and its a very, very boring unit compared to vulture/tank and marine/firebat.
Protoss pretty much has the same build against all races, and hidden tech gimmicks have less potential for rewards than ever.
Don't get me started on the downgrade in Zerg unit diversity..
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Just to clarify, I don't blindly mass cannons Every game. I use it to punish heavy Eco builds. I made this thread to create some awareness and discussion. I learn a lot of great strategy on these forums and like to contribute my little piece. Also, to clarify my use of words "greedy" and "lazy"; I'm not trying to insult anyone. I am referring to the current trend of having a blind standard openning that is Eco heavy without properly scouting or anticipating early pressure.
Resource collection rate is so much faster than in broodwar. Players can start beating on each other a lot sooner. My personal prediction is that 10 pool will become standard Zerg play, except maybe on larger maps. Just my opinion, game has lots of time to develop and 2 more expansions.
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=D everyone cheeses on europe, but america is a bit more macro oriented
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I agree. It's almost as if there is a gentlemen's agreement to just go uber economy and not pressure early on.
If you can take quick victory by being aggressive, why not?
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Well, most PvTs I play involve some sort of early reaper; I don't know how early would qualify as a cheese, but I just got 8rax-->reaper'd. I won eventually, but I wouldn't say that plat players are all macro oriented.
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On April 30 2010 08:55 Ftrunkz wrote:
The platinum rankings atm are a bit of a joke with the new bug thats going on where everyone is favoured anyway, it basically turns it into a who has the more wins contest rather than a more skill-based contest like it was before patch 9/10. Hoping they change it before release =\
just last night I've starting to see games where I was "slightly favored"....and ever since then whenever I lost...I lost 10+ pts and when I won..I won like 10-14 pts..
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any z that goes hatch before pool is a nub and deserves to be punished
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On April 30 2010 02:46 Shambler wrote:
Zerg has to FE vs P or T, unless you do some kinda bling bust
this is not SC1. zerg can play FINE on 1 base, JUST like the other races. if anything I find 1 base almost more frightening because I won't have all early-game to do whatever i want.
its just easier to FE as zerg so zerg players still do it. thats why a lot of zerg players lose with FE vs heavy harassment/rushes
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On April 30 2010 12:07 PhiliBiRD wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2010 02:46 Shambler wrote:
Zerg has to FE vs P or T, unless you do some kinda bling bust this is not SC1. zerg can play FINE on 1 base, JUST like the other races. if anything I find 1 base almost more frightening because I won't have all early-game to do whatever i want. its just easier to FE as zerg so zerg players still do it. thats why a lot of zerg players lose with FE vs heavy harassment/rushes
You have to make the hatchery for unit production. That hatchery might as well be at an expo. 90% of the time you lose from an FE you would've lost on 1 base too. You know what zerg on 1 base is? A joke. All you do is mass up and block their aggression and you win. 1 base zerg has no power to tech switch.
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i watched the replays and tried this stat, it does work, even though the reps of the OP are not very good (missing probe production, bad mineral/zealot timings, weak micro and unrefined opponent BO's), this definitely counters a zerg who goes 13 pool 15 hatch or something similar.
On blistering sands you can even pretend to be walling off your choke and doing the backdoor as main exit strat, getting the zerg to think you are going eco - this has worked the best for me personally. But versus 1 base play, and versus decent toss and terren players, this strat isnt very viable unless they are so greedy that u have your cannon in range of workers before they have troops out.
Its still kinda a BM strat tho, I'm not the biggest fan.
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Nope. I chz many game.
Some thing nevers change.
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On April 30 2010 12:07 PhiliBiRD wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2010 02:46 Shambler wrote:
Zerg has to FE vs P or T, unless you do some kinda bling bust this is not SC1. zerg can play FINE on 1 base, JUST like the other races. if anything I find 1 base almost more frightening because I won't have all early-game to do whatever i want. its just easier to FE as zerg so zerg players still do it. thats why a lot of zerg players lose with FE vs heavy harassment/rushes
I'm going to have to disagree with this. Zerg is still the "weaker units that you have to outnumber people with" race. If I'm stuck at 1 base, even ZvZ, I'm going to lose, it's that simple. Terran and Protoss can field far more efficient and dangerous armies at equal supply as Zerg.
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On April 30 2010 02:05 AmstAff wrote:
why should you cheese, if you know your macro/micro is better? usually i dont cheese, cause most of the time i think i wont have problems in mid-/lategame if i get into that phase without disadvantage.
Yep ... as Day[9] always says: "Why win now with an 80% chance, when you can win 100% a few minutes later?"
Cheese is also taking risks and most of the top games are more about staying alive longer than the enemy than aggressively winning the game. When your opponent has the counter units for your forces you need to stay alive to be able to tech switch. Thats why defense is more important than offense. Sure it isnt as "flashy", but its still more important. While defending you are on your "home turf" and you can add the firepower of your static defenses there, so an attack is always risky, because units move really fast in SC2.
As a Protoss you can easily replenish units with Warp Gates and Chrono Boost, but the other races arent that lucky and actually dont get them in just a few seconds. This comment is directed to the OP ...
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On April 30 2010 13:57 w_Ender_w wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2010 12:07 PhiliBiRD wrote:On April 30 2010 02:46 Shambler wrote:
Zerg has to FE vs P or T, unless you do some kinda bling bust this is not SC1. zerg can play FINE on 1 base, JUST like the other races. if anything I find 1 base almost more frightening because I won't have all early-game to do whatever i want. its just easier to FE as zerg so zerg players still do it. thats why a lot of zerg players lose with FE vs heavy harassment/rushes I'm going to have to disagree with this. Zerg is still the "weaker units that you have to outnumber people with" race. If I'm stuck at 1 base, even ZvZ, I'm going to lose, it's that simple. Terran and Protoss can field far more efficient and dangerous armies at equal supply as Zerg.
That is definitely true, especially the protoss blob gets insanely strong once it hits some critical mass. Zerg doesn't have to expand that quickly though. Expanding after your lair is done is perfectly viable in most cases.
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Don't do cheese, you don't learn from it and it's beta, practice apm and learn macro
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The metagame is already going in circles. It is almost impossible to FE ZvP now because most Toss players cheese or go 4gate all-in. Zerg has to play 1base roachfest again.
No, there isn't any imbalance. It is purely map problem and lack of defender advantage.
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On April 30 2010 19:11 goszar wrote:
The metagame is already going in circles. It is almost impossible to FE ZvP now because most Toss players cheese or go 4gate all-in. Zerg has to play 1base roachfest again.
No, there isn't any imbalance. It is purely map problem and lack of defender advantage.
4 gate can be stopped with spine crawlers. Don't tech to lair just drone up, get spine crawlers down and 3 to 4 queens out in case he jukes you and makes a stargate. 4 Queens can also heal the spine crawlers which makes them like invincible. You can make roaches or speedlings whichever you prefer. I prefer speedlings since they build faster. And if you can don't ever let him hide a proxy pylon before he moves out of his base. That will save him time and the attack will come faster. If he has to wait for his pylon to go up you'll have a ton of time to build more zerglings.
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I say it's definitely interesting and worth a shot.
Might watch reps once I get home
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I know i'm greedy as hell It's beta. Now is the time to push the greed to the limits and find out how many drones exactly I can get in time.
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this thread reminds me of zpux getting smashed by a bad in zotac 9. The guy went blind 5 warpgate void prism off 1 base and dropped his main w/ 3 zealots and 1 sentry then warped units in non stop until zpux was dead.
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Your cannon cheese is stoppable even with FE, the first PvZ with split cannons the zerg sent all his lings to kill the cannons at his natural with 0 defense at his main. The second PvZ the zerg scouted and still went 15 pool, maybe he thought on that map you were going to cannon choke FE.
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Very interesting discussion going on here, and now i'm wondering if I have the right approach to the game.
As Z i FE both against P and T, but I tech really fast to lair (something like 14 pool 15 hatch 15 gas and when I gathered about 130 gas I tech) in order to get fast hydras so I don't get crushed by fast banshees or fast void ray. But this sometimes results in me losing against pure 4 warp gates rush, but at least I counter 3 warp gates + 1 stargate void ray rush effectively. I have seen some players use a different approach, making 3 queens, droning up fast and teching once they gathered about 300 gas. Some players tech even later, basically once they have 30-32 drones gathering minerals.
Do u think my approach is good? If not, which one would u say is the best way to improve one's skill over time? Am I metagaming?
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On April 30 2010 04:51 Holden Caulfield wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2010 02:27 Cooloff wrote:
is their such thing as chees at the pro level? would you "cheese" your way to victory for a couple grand? No, there is not. You sir seems to be a reasonable person.
Lol ? I'd definitely do that. If there's a way that could allow me to win the game then i don't know why the fuck not.
Seriously ?
We need to use every imbalanced cheese we can think of before the game is released in order to make it a balanced one.
If not then the game won't be competitive. Sad but true.
And don't tell me you wouldn't do cheese in order to win money... That'd be the most retarded thing to do, assuming you need money. If not you're all on your own by participating to this tournament.
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EPT
