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Hey guys, I just lost a game on LT where a zerg pretty much russed mutas and owned me. I thought I had the game in the bag after I cleared a ton of workers with hellions and took an early expansion. When the mutas hit, he killed my hellions with ease and just sat and built up a force of about 5 mutas.
From there he went around harassing all my workers killing so many. My marines kept chasing them but because of their speed they would just dance around them going after anything undefended. After he had amassed about 5 more mutas, he was able to face my marines along with a lot of vikings. He had to back off, but in the process he took his nat and another expo.
I immediately went for thors, which now I'm regretting. The thors were far too slow and immoble to keep up with the mutas as he endlessly harassed my base. I tried to be offensive and aggressive but he had so many mutas(and zerglings to go after my thors) there was nothing I could do. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
REPLAY: http://www.sc2rc.com/index.php/replay/show/910
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tbh sounds like 2-4 well placed turrets wouldve easily won the game for you.
also when you KNOW hes far behind and 5 mutas are all he has then just pump rines and attack.he can kill some stuff but at one point hes has to defend,you kill mutas, u win?
also 5-10 mutas arent "mass".
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Marine, Medic, Stim.
Mutalisks are not what they used to be.
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On April 08 2010 10:25 BeMannerDuPenner wrote:
tbh sounds like 2-4 well placed turrets wouldve easily won the game for you.
also when you KNOW hes far behind and 5 mutas are all he has then just pump rines and attack.he can kill some stuff but at one point hes has to defend,you kill mutas, u win?
also 5-10 mutas arent "mass".
well by the end he had mass, thats what I meant, I think he had 30 something
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Have you using a raven with your vikings? Being able to chase them beyond cliffs/marine range and destroying stacks with Hunter Seeker Missle would be fun.
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erm, would actually helped a lot if there's a replay? Instead of guessing what went wrong?
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United States4126 Posts
You do exactly what you do in BW against mutas. Marines + stim + medics + turrets, except now mutas can't micro against you and you can micro 2 separate groups of mnm much more easily.
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Turrets are quite effective against mutalisks. 3-2 Thors can take out a ridiculous amount of mutalisks. As you said their weakness is their mobility. So you can split some thors up between each mineral line until you get about three and then you can push out. The bonus factor here is that you can repair your thors and they're already at your mineral line. When you're ready to push out getting 3-4 turrets should protect your economy (repair) and if he got 30 mutalisks you should win.
EDIT: forgot to mention that you could also get another thor to protect your home base with turrets if its that many mutalisks. It might take a bit longer for you to do the push but 30 mutalisks is 3000 minerals and 3000 gas.
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I watched the replay. This will sound harsh, but I'm going to be brutally honest with you.
ok so the second you saw mutas you should have made eng bay, put up some turrets, and make thors from your factories. I'm about 9:50 into the replay and you got massively supply blocked at 46. And I mean MASSIVELY supply blocked, you have 3 marines, 6 SCVs, 3 vikings, and 2 siege tanks queued up. Yet you have 1 lonely SCV with 4 depots shift-queued. That should never happen...
but if it DOES happen, you should use calldown supply IMMEDIATELY. Calldown supply exists for exactly the situation you were in.
Biggest mistake I see is 2 siege tanks queued up in your factories. Why are you making siege tanks after you know he has mutas? Those should be thors. And make more barracks to pump marines.
Zerg actually made TWO spires, not sure if that was intentional or not, but it's bad bad bad.
Stopped watching at 12:00, you have 1k minerals built up and you're pumping siege tanks against mutas...
sorry but you're doing it all wrong.
Vikings are terran's anti-heavy air unit. Not their anti-light air unit. Vikings don't counter mutas. Thors, upgraded marines, and turrets counter mutas. Make your eng bay earlier, make more barracks, put up some turrets, and pump thors and you should be fine against mutas.
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Huh how do terrans still have trouble with mutas? 1 turret easily > 4 mutas in this version.. with 4-5 turrets in the base, the zerg needs to invest so much resources just to START harassing, and by then the terran can just roll over him with hellion/marauder/thors.
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On April 08 2010 14:33 BlasiuS wrote:
ok so the second you saw mutas you should have made eng bay, put up some turrets, and make thors from your factories.
^-----This.
Been playing a bunch on the new patch with my friend. Mutas are pretty much useless v T right now. Cant harass with them and you can't touch an army that has thors in it, and what T wouldn't have thors if he saw a spire.
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How do you place your missile turrets ? I usually have one in my scvs in each base/expand and one or two near my production buildings, but I feel it's sometimes not enough as the mutas can attack something else.
Is this positionning wrong ? I'm not a sc:bw player, so I don't have much experience in placing turrets/reacting to muta.
I'm producing marines, but I don't know when to attack or keep units to defend against his mutas.
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On April 08 2010 21:37 StyX wrote:
How do you place your missile turrets ? I usually have one in my scvs in each base/expand and one or two near my production buildings, but I feel it's sometimes not enough as the mutas can attack something else.
Is this positionning wrong ? I'm not a sc:bw player, so I don't have much experience in placing turrets/reacting to muta.
I'm producing marines, but I don't know when to attack or keep units to defend against his mutas.
I usually place two or three turrets behind the mineral lines when I see him going mutas. Depending on how many mutas he has and how far away my expansions are I might add more. I might add another turret to cover my buildings but the worker line is much more vulnerable. If he tries to attack the rest of your base you can usually get there in time with your thors.
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On April 08 2010 14:33 BlasiuS wrote:
I watched the replay. This will sound harsh, but I'm going to be brutally honest with you.
ok so the second you saw mutas you should have made eng bay, put up some turrets, and make thors from your factories. I'm about 9:50 into the replay and you got massively supply blocked at 46. And I mean MASSIVELY supply blocked, you have 3 marines, 6 SCVs, 3 vikings, and 2 siege tanks queued up. Yet you have 1 lonely SCV with 4 depots shift-queued. That should never happen...
but if it DOES happen, you should use calldown supply IMMEDIATELY. Calldown supply exists for exactly the situation you were in.
Biggest mistake I see is 2 siege tanks queued up in your factories. Why are you making siege tanks after you know he has mutas? Those should be thors. And make more barracks to pump marines.
Zerg actually made TWO spires, not sure if that was intentional or not, but it's bad bad bad.
Stopped watching at 12:00, you have 1k minerals built up and you're pumping siege tanks against mutas...
sorry but you're doing it all wrong.
Vikings are terran's anti-heavy air unit. Not their anti-light air unit. Vikings don't counter mutas. Thors, upgraded marines, and turrets counter mutas. Make your eng bay earlier, make more barracks, put up some turrets, and pump thors and you should be fine against mutas.
Thank you very much for your analysis. I definetly see now how the tanks and vikings were a mistake. I was making tank to try and kill him and send them with thors because i knew all he had were mutas. Obviously though, that didnt work out. I do feel that thors are useless as base defense though... They feel to large and slow to keep up with them. I will definetly use marines in the future though. This is only my 2nd day of playing beta though, so with enough time and experience im sure ill do much better
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Thors, With the new patch you can get em even faster, (Don't forget the +1 weapons upgrade from the armory though, and a handful of SCV's on auotrepair) as long as you have 1-2 of em and a handful of rines the mutas get rocked, and just watch out for misplaced units and shit like that because mutas will pick them off
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On April 08 2010 14:33 BlasiuS wrote:
ok so the second you saw mutas you should have made eng bay, put up some turrets, and make thors from your factories.
sounds redundant to me... If you're doing a hellion opener backing it up with thor/marauder is a good idea, but you don't need to make turrets and thors as a knee jerk reaction to mutas. If you're doing mnm opener i'd go with the ebay and get your ups while you're at it. I always get an early ebay though when using rax units.
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On April 09 2010 01:36 starcraft911 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2010 14:33 BlasiuS wrote:
ok so the second you saw mutas you should have made eng bay, put up some turrets, and make thors from your factories. sounds redundant to me... If you're doing a hellion opener backing it up with thor/marauder is a good idea, but you don't need to make turrets and thors as a knee jerk reaction to mutas. If you're doing mnm opener i'd go with the ebay and get your ups while you're at it. I always get an early ebay though when using rax units.
thors are too slow to keep mutas from harassing main + nat by themselves. You need at least 1-2 turrets per base. Otherwise as soon as you move out mutas will hit you, then fly back in time to defend the attack.
How else are you expecting to defend mutas? 1 rax unupgraded marines aren't going to cut it, and it's 60 seconds before the thors pop out.
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Don't mind him BlasiuS, its just another non-beta key person chiming in with their "knowledge" about how the game should be played.
Anyone that has played the recent patch (or the previous ones) would know what you suggested is the proper response to avoid harass-army death.
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mass marines do fine and with stim and medics they do excellent.
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On April 09 2010 06:58 Synwave wrote:
Don't mind him BlasiuS, its just another non-beta key person chiming in with their "knowledge" about how the game should be played.
Anyone that has played the recent patch (or the previous ones) would know what you suggested is the proper response to avoid harass-army death.
No he's right... if your opponent has mutas there's no reason not to build a turret (or two) at each base.
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I played a TTvZZ on twilight fortress yesterday and that game was brutal.
We expected mutas so as soon as we scanned their base to see those flying fawkers, we started putting up turrets and I started getting vikings. (The original plan was MaraMedivac for me and Tank+marine for my teammate).
At first we held off the mutas pretty well but their numbers jumped to 40 (I counted, they expanded everywhere) and turrets were getting 1 shotted. Vikings didnt do much either, like someone else in here said, they shine against big flyings, not small ones.
So, we started building thors. And when I say building, I mean we got 15 in total. Thors are slow as hell so forget about chasing. Think of them as slightly mobile turrets. I defended my mineral line with 5 turrets and 2 thors, his mutas got wiped out.
The game got worse for use because we couldnt leave the base and they were massing all manner of ground unit. We eventualy got sick of waiting for the inevitable so we grabbed the 15 thors + marines, marauders, medivacs and tanks and just left the base. The mutas came back in force so my ally recalled his share of the thors while I pushed. He started blowing them up so the zerg ran his mutas through my ally's base, which was peppered with turrets (about 10) and that was the end of the annoying crap spitting bats.
We crushed them. I still have the replay if you want it. Seriously, I thought we were going to lose that game. After watching the replay, you can see the zergs panicked because they had 5000 minerals and werent even making zerglings, which NOM NOM thors at a disgusting rate.
Thors FTW!
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Viking, marine, turrets. Marine is better. Vikings are more stable, like for example if they have baneling.
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As the title says "mass" and you mentioned ~30 muta. It's an instant win if you just build a few thors. Generally I stick with marines n meds but if a zerg was bad enough to make 30 muta just a handful of thor will kill them all off with ease. Thor is an extreme hard counter to mass muta. Check youtube to see how big of a hard counter it is. You should always be scouting for info on what units hes going to be making, once you see a spire go down you should get a few turrets at your mineral lines, forcing the zerg to stop making mutas the rest of the game as they are near worthless in sc2 TvZ.
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Turrets are buffed really good vs mutals
so is Thors even though they are very slow 2~3 will just rape all mutals
If your massing marines just watch out for bannelings
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EPT
