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My test with 13 pool and 15 OL (to have it pop before the Pool):
9OL:
16 workers @ 169s
Pool @ 168s
OL @ 137s
Larva @ 182s
Mined
1218.35 @ 168s
900.22 @ 137s
10OL:
16 workers @ 171s
Pool @ 168s
OL @ 139s
Larva @ 184s
Mined
1215.61 @ 168s
898.85 @ 137s
10OL (ext trick):
16 workers @ 169s
Pool @ 168s
OL @ 137s
Larva @ 182s
Mined
1212.35 @ 168s
894.22 @ 137s
Kinda funny that the 10OL (ext trick) build has mined the EXACT amount of minerals as the 9OL at both times if it weren't for those 6 minerals lost. This despite getting drones at different timings.
If it didn't cost anything to cancel extractors, the 9OL build and the 10OL (ext trick) build would be the EXACT same thing if you're 13-pooling. As it is now, 9OL is superior. 10OL is behind in larvae production but is mining kinda well.
Again: 9OL is slightly superior in every way. It also gets the first OL out faster to scout with. 
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On April 19 2010 21:00 cyclone25 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2010 18:45 Tipton wrote:
How about a double extractor trick (at around 100min) for a 10/12 ovie ? I saw Check doing it once. I'm curious about it too.
Well, you'd have to do it at around 150 mins (25+25+50+50).
Think of it as the same thing as 10OL with a single extractor trick, just that you lose 6 minerals extra and won't mine it back. The timings are all _exactly_ the same.
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On April 19 2010 20:50 HeyheyLBJ wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2010 20:00 goszar wrote:
HeyheyLBJ Thanks a lot.
I have recently seen the following build in Zotac cup played by some Oger guy:
10 Drones
Extractor trick
Overlord
3 Drones when overlord pops (one is usually 1 second late)
Spawning pool (it is at 14).
The other player did usual 10Ol and was 50 minerals behind and about 2 seconds behind on 14 drones. I have watched several times - they were equal up to 10 drones.
My calculations show that this is superior even to 9o by small amount assuming you are going for 14 pool. This is the build I tested with. The 14th drone will come much faster with the extractor trick build since it is one of the drones in the first batch after the OL pops. So I'm not sure what you mean with 2 seconds and 50 minerals behind.
There are two different 10 Overlord Extractor Trick builds:
1) Extractor Trick then Overlord.
2) Overlord then Extractor trick.
First one is better according to my calculations. Which did you use?
I'm trying to argue that the build i presented is superior to all that you tested (assuming 14 pool). And in that replay Oger guy had 50 minerals more and 2 seconds faster 14th drone than the guy who went 10OL.
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On April 19 2010 22:33 goszar wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2010 20:50 HeyheyLBJ wrote:On April 19 2010 20:00 goszar wrote:
HeyheyLBJ Thanks a lot.
I have recently seen the following build in Zotac cup played by some Oger guy:
10 Drones
Extractor trick
Overlord
3 Drones when overlord pops (one is usually 1 second late)
Spawning pool (it is at 14).
The other player did usual 10Ol and was 50 minerals behind and about 2 seconds behind on 14 drones. I have watched several times - they were equal up to 10 drones.
My calculations show that this is superior even to 9o by small amount assuming you are going for 14 pool. This is the build I tested with. The 14th drone will come much faster with the extractor trick build since it is one of the drones in the first batch after the OL pops. So I'm not sure what you mean with 2 seconds and 50 minerals behind. There are two different 10 Overlord Extractor Trick builds: 1) Extractor Trick then Overlord. 2) Overlord then Extractor trick. First one is better according to my calculations. Which did you use? I'm trying to argue that the build i presented is superior to all that you tested (assuming 14 pool). And in that replay Oger guy had 50 minerals more and 2 seconds faster 14th drone than the guy who went 10OL.
I used the first one, ext trick then ol.
Oh, than a normal 10OL. Yeah, the 14th drone comes out exactly 2 seconds earlier, but #11 and #12 comes out much later, and #11 obv much earlier.
My tests concluded that 10OL with ext trick is indeed better than a normal 10OL build, but the 50 more minerals that early is nowhere to be seen. Could you post the replay?
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On April 19 2010 22:50 HeyheyLBJ wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2010 22:33 goszar wrote:On April 19 2010 20:50 HeyheyLBJ wrote:On April 19 2010 20:00 goszar wrote:
HeyheyLBJ Thanks a lot.
I have recently seen the following build in Zotac cup played by some Oger guy:
10 Drones
Extractor trick
Overlord
3 Drones when overlord pops (one is usually 1 second late)
Spawning pool (it is at 14).
The other player did usual 10Ol and was 50 minerals behind and about 2 seconds behind on 14 drones. I have watched several times - they were equal up to 10 drones.
My calculations show that this is superior even to 9o by small amount assuming you are going for 14 pool. This is the build I tested with. The 14th drone will come much faster with the extractor trick build since it is one of the drones in the first batch after the OL pops. So I'm not sure what you mean with 2 seconds and 50 minerals behind. There are two different 10 Overlord Extractor Trick builds: 1) Extractor Trick then Overlord. 2) Overlord then Extractor trick. First one is better according to my calculations. Which did you use? I'm trying to argue that the build i presented is superior to all that you tested (assuming 14 pool). And in that replay Oger guy had 50 minerals more and 2 seconds faster 14th drone than the guy who went 10OL. I used the first one, ext trick then ol. Oh, than a normal 10OL. Yeah, the 14th drone comes out exactly 2 seconds earlier, but #11 and #12 comes out much later, and #11 obv much earlier. My tests concluded that 10OL with ext trick is indeed better than a normal 10OL build, but the 50 more minerals that early is nowhere to be seen. Could you post the replay?
Actually the difference was about 30 minerals but it was because OgerEli did not scout. So we can safely say that 9o is best for all standard builds.
http://www.mediafire.com/?tyzxmtyhjoy
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On April 19 2010 18:22 HeyheyLBJ wrote:I've researched this and come to a conclusion. I've currently measured four different openings: 9 OL, 10OL, 10OL with ext trick, and 8 OL (just for fun). Graph: http://pici.se/pictures/UFCSyZTIM.jpg (X-axis is game seconds, Y-axis is total mined).
OMG... this is pretty hardcore stuff...
I've always wondered about 9o and 10o.. seeing how players in cup matches vary between 9o and 10o. From the posts, it seems I should go 9o from now on...
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What about 11 overlord w/ extractor trick? As far as I've seen that's what Idra's been doing and I've been giving it a whirl. Seems to work pretty well
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I never thought about the hatchery position effecting income
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On April 23 2010 20:48 cartoon]x wrote:
I never thought about the hatchery position effecting income
!! does it?
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Damn interesting research, guys. Thanks for all the work you've put in trying to come to a consensus here.
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I'd love to see the math done on a 12overpool with 2etrick (12op+2e).
If you're going to wait for 100 mins and then 200 mins to build up for an ovie and a pool, then having 2 extra drones mining to do it during the wait should be advantageous. Certainly your pool will come out 10 seconds or so later, but 12op+2e should have much better econ then a straight 10op. It may even catch up in larvae count to a 14 or 15pool due to the earlier queen.
The bo ideally should be 10drones, then wait on 150 mins --> 2etrick. then overpool.
I suppose you could do 75 mins --> 11/10, then 100 mins --> 12/10, doing the etrick a total of 3 times. This comes out the exact same, however. You lose an extra 7-8 mins for the extra trick, but you get the 11th drone 7-8 seconds earlier. They offset each other and you get the 12th drone at the same time. However, if you get unlucky and lose 8 mins, gaining only 7 mins mined, it's a smidgeon later. Easier to just wait for 150 mins.
PS> I just realized this is slightly offtopic, since the thread was about 9ov vs. 10ov+e, but 
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On April 23 2010 20:55 ashburn wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2010 20:48 cartoon]x wrote:
I never thought about the hatchery position effecting income !! does it?
Of course it does. If hatchery is above your mins, your larvae spawn next to the mins. If hatchery is below your mins, your larvae have to go around to the mins, probably taking 1-2 seconds longer. 2 seconds * 15 larvae = 30 mins. It's worse than that, because it compounds. The extra mins from the time saved actually allows you to get drones out earlier, giving you more extra mins. Getting drones 7-9 1-2 seconds earlier each gives 5 extra mins, which allows you to get the 10th drone out 2-3 seconds earlier(2 mins). That might allow you to get the 11th drone out 4-5 seconds earlier, the 12th out 7-8 seconds earlier, etc.
For those of you who rally each individual egg, it's much easier to rally in the former position than in the latter position.
This is of course why the south position on Desert Oasis is a tiny bit better than the north position.
Interesting enough, Zerg are the only race to have this problem. CC's and Nexus don't care where you place them. The SCV's/drones spawn in the direction of the rally.
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I'm not sure about 11 overlord, as I only tried that a bit before doing 10o+e,
but I have had experience doing 12 pool before overlord using 2 double gas tricks to try and use up larva. It was one of the first builds I ever did, and can perform a seemingly excellent 4-8 (6) roach rush.
Problem with 12pool before overlord, is not only do you still waste a bit of larva timing (maybe 1/4 to 1/3 of a larva, as opposed to 1/2 or 2/3 if you only do 1 double extractor trick), but you're loosing mining time and minerals from the extractor trick.
I did a quite intense comparison with I think it was a standard 13 pool, possibly not even an efficient one, and the 12pool seemed to loose to it quite badly. Even though I got a queen earlier, I still had a bit of sacrificed economy. I can't say my comparison was guaranteed flawless, but i spent quite a bit of time on it, and both players didn't seemingly make any major mistakes.
12pool is not a build I'd recommend for anyone, except maybe a roach rush (which could probably be easily defended if scouted), since I found some very tight timings for a roach rush build with that strat..
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this thread doesnt make any sense. do 9 overlord or 10 its effect to game is like %0.00001 believe me.
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On April 08 2010 23:48 goszar wrote:
Klive5ive
"1mineral per second on average" comes from the article of SC2 theorist I fully respect (I can give you links if you understand Russian). Also my calculations were off, it's actually 3.5 minerals difference. So I assume the builds are equal if you ignore odd 4 minerals.
That theorist promised to do the guide on Zerg builds, i'm waiting for it. He has already done Terran one, the biggest conclusions he made is that 9Rax -11 depot - orbital is equal to 10 depot -12 rax- orbital; and the best FE build is 9Rax-11depot-14CC.
Post the info when you get it please
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On April 08 2010 08:38 bongjwa wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2010 21:25 flothefreak wrote:
Why was it 9ol in SCBW anyway? I wondered all the time why terran went 8or9/10 depot, protoss 8/9 pyl and only zerg made 9/9, waiting for the cap..
Because you can build drones as soon as larva pops out and you build scvs and probes 1 after another. Delaying 1 probe is delaying all the others that would spawn after - it's VERY BAD.
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I also found 9 OL slightly faster than 10 e cancel. But if you for some reason you accidentally made a drone instead of overlord the extractor cancel is a nice recovery that won't really put you behind or throw off your build.
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I get my overlord at 9 every game. I didn't do any actual /research/. But, it /feels/ like it's faster.
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I have always either done 10, ovie, extracter for extra... Or 10, extracter for extra, ovie.. Not sure which of these is better but 9 is just so pointless as you can use extracter for another
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EPT
