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LuDwig-
Italy1143 Posts
Orly opened with a 9 overlord while kuroki opened with a 10 overlord build. These are the results ![[image loading]](http://img202.imageshack.us/img202/488/9lord.jpg) Orly on the left Kuroki on the right (of the three drones orly was producing 1 had the same progress bar of kuroki) As you can clearly seen making the overlord at 9 gives you two faster drones giving no damage at all at your initial economy. So it makes no sense at all producing overlord at 10 instead that at 9. | ||
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10or10
Sweden517 Posts
Note the larva spawn positions compared to the minerals... | ||
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done
Germany70 Posts
A little research would very much be appreciated :D | ||
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LaLuSh
Sweden2358 Posts
The 2 drones he gets out faster might be able to make up for it, but I doubt it. It'll probably be close. | ||
zatic
Zurich15324 Posts
Edit: wasn't there a thread with actual income numbers comparing 9 against 10? Should read this forum more often.... | ||
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Coffee
United Kingdom347 Posts
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flothefreak
Germany77 Posts
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LaLuSh
Sweden2358 Posts
On March 19 2010 18:26 spinesheath wrote: After thining and calculating for a while I came to this somewhat untested result: 9o = 9 overlord, 10o = 10 overlord 9o gets the 10th drone ~12 seconds later because that is the time it takes to harvest the additional 100 minerals required for an overlord. You are not limited in larvae at this time. So with the 1 mineral per second rule that means -12 minerals for 9o. 10o gets the drones 11, 12 and 13 about 6 seconds later because the ovelord is delayed by 50 minerals or 6 seconds compared to 9o. That results in -18 minerals at the time of drone spawn. This assumes that 9o has enough minerals and larvae to make 3 drones right as the overlord spawns. But findings from a single test run are that you don't have the minerals and larvae to make a third drone right away with 9o. It comes about 6 seconds later, which would result in 9o = 10o. So the difference depends on very small details. Since 10o + extractor is slightly better than 10o, I would assume that 10o+e is at least as good as 9o. | ||
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zatic
Zurich15324 Posts
So who has a couple of minutes and an excel sheet and wants to break this down once and for all? | ||
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Deathfate
Spain555 Posts
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LuDwig-
Italy1143 Posts
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Deathfate
Spain555 Posts
On April 07 2010 23:26 LuDwig- wrote: I think that if you can have 30 minerals for free why don't claim them? :| I mean if with 9 ovie at (hypothetically) 1:30 you have 14 drones and x minerals, its not woth it if 10 ovie at 1:30 (again hypotheticall) have your 14 probes and x+30 minerals, all of this should be tested at 14 drones to see the econ diference and choose which one is better | ||
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spinesheath
Germany8679 Posts
The choice of which mineral patch to harvest also plays a little role. 2 drones on a patch close to the hatch yield more income than one drone on a close patch and one on a far patch. | ||
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zeidrichthorene
Canada83 Posts
10o will pause larva production while you sit at 3 larvae waiting for your OL to pop. Doing 9o will not. Doing 10o with the extractor trick will not. Assuming you never sit at 3 larva, whether by using extractor trick, or 9o, your 14th drone is going to come at the exact same time. Any time you sit at 3 larva you're going to fall behind. Going 10o extrick will lose you a few seconds of mining time, and drop you down by 1 mineral. A 1 mineral drop is really as impacting as a 5 mineral drop, as any costs are in 5 mineral multiples. Going 9o will delay your 10th drone by some seconds (5-6 iirc), but it will also bring your 12th drone out earlier. I have never had an issue having enough minerals to get my 13th drone. Also, the larva for the 13th drone should not be spawned until after the overlord pops. If it has spawned, then you'd be sitting on 3 larva, losing larva time, and you probably waited to long to start morphing your overlord. The whole idea is to never sit on 3 larva for more than a millisecond, or else you're delaying the next larva spawn. By the 14th drone you should be in sync again, you should have no larva doing it either way. In terms of drone production, if they are both done properly, they should be identical. In terms of mineral count, I've found I get better results with 9o, but that's variable based on your mineral patch locations, how you split your drones, how well you execute your extractor trick, etc. I find 9o is more reliable in any case, but that's just with my play. I'd not be surprised if someone with better mechanics can eek more out with the extrick. One thing I'd like to know is whether maybe one order is better when your mineral patch is north of your base, while another is better when your patch is to the south. | ||
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FortuneSyn
1826 Posts
10th OL means your 11th and 12th drone mine for a longer amount of time. It also means you don't waste larvae because you aren't waiting with 3 larvae. Therefore, 9OL must be better. | ||
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spinesheath
Germany8679 Posts
On April 08 2010 02:49 FortuneSyn wrote: 9OL means your 10th drone mines for a smaller amount of time. 10th OL means your 11th and 12th drone mine for a longer amount of time. It also means you don't waste larvae because you aren't waiting with 3 larvae. Therefore, 9OL must be better. The builds in question should be 9 over and 10 over + extractor trick anyways. And you completely ignore the length of the time periods in question. | ||
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bongjwa
United States199 Posts
On April 07 2010 21:25 flothefreak wrote: Why was it 9ol in SCBW anyway? I wondered all the time why terran went 8or9/10 depot, protoss 8/9 pyl and only zerg made 9/9, waiting for the cap.. | ||
Zelniq
United States7166 Posts
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Slayer91
Ireland23335 Posts
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Piousflea
United States259 Posts
9ov and 10ov +extractor are very close to each other. Close enough that it'll be hard to prove the superiority of one over the other. Honestly, it may well boil down to personal preference. | ||
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threehundred
Canada911 Posts
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Tipton
Sweden13 Posts
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goszar
Belarus119 Posts
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saritenite
Singapore1680 Posts
On April 07 2010 21:25 flothefreak wrote: Why was it 9ol in SCBW anyway? I wondered all the time why terran went 8or9/10 depot, protoss 8/9 pyl and only zerg made 9/9, waiting for the cap.. It's the Larvae system, you can produce 2 drones immediately after your OL pops while having a drone on every patch of minerals gathering for a 1) quick pool, or 2) 12 hatch build. | ||
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Thamoo
Canada234 Posts
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Klive5ive
United Kingdom6056 Posts
Here's my measurements from replays, feel free to check this: With 9 drones it takes 14 tics to mine the extra 100 minerals needed to get an overlord on 9. Drones mine at 5 minerals every 7 tics Extractor trick costs effectively 10 minerals (it's actually 6 but you can't spend the extra 4 unless you cancel another building). 10o This build wastes larvae time, setting all your future drones back. The result is less minerals in the long run. However at the 10 larvae stage this build has the most minerals. Therefore it will get a 10 pool down faster. If you plan a fast pool or something crazy like a 12hatch this would be the correct build. 10o+e Vs 9o Neither of these builds waste larvae time. 9o gets it's 10th drone 100 minerals later. Effectively that's about 14 tics. 1 drone would mine 10 minerals in that time. The 10o+e loses an effective 10 minerals on the extrick so it's immediately equal. Factor in the lost mining time on the extrick drone and the later 12th drone and you can see this build is worse. Conclusion: 9o is the strongest economic opening for Zerg. This should always be done before the popular 15pool 16hatch. | ||
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goszar
Belarus119 Posts
On faster speed, drone mines 1 mineral per second on average. Drone build time is 12.75 seconds; overlord - 18.75 seconds. Builds start in equal conditions - 8 drones are mining, 9th is morphing, we have 50 minerals 1) You morph another drone now or wait 6.25 seconds to morph overlord, then 6.25 seconds more to morph drone, losing 12.5 minerals in mining time for 9o build. 2) in 10o, after overlord you wait for 75 minerals during 8.5 seconds (9 drones mining) to do extractor trick, losing 10 minerals + about 3 in mining time if you are quick (you can't use 4 minerals as Klive5ive pointed out). So far both builds are pretty even. 3) in 9o build, you get 11th drone 12.5-8.5 =4 seconds later than 10o+ExtTr, 12th drone 6.25 seconds faster (because of faster ovie). You don't have minerals for 13th drone for 5 seconds (10 drones mining), so it's 1.25 seconds faster. 4) In 10o+ExtTr, you have minerals for 12th and 13th right after ovie (well, sometimes it is 99), but they come later because for 12.5 seconds later ovie as described in #3. Conclusion: 9o build is ahead by about 3.5 minerals compared to 10o+Extractor trick, assuming player loses abut 3 seconds in mining time doing the trick. I think these builds were designed to be equal, but you lose those odd 4 minerals you can't spend. Table for explanations: ![[image loading]](http://img263.imageshack.us/img263/7553/9ovs10oe.jpg) | ||
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Klive5ive
United Kingdom6056 Posts
On April 08 2010 23:17 goszar wrote: No one seems to actually have calculated the difference. Let's do this from pure theoretical standpoint, ignoring the scout. On faster speed, drone mines 1 mineral per second on average. Drone build time is 12.75 seconds; overlord - 18.75 seconds. Builds start in equal conditions - 8 drones are mining, 9th is morphing, we have 50 minerals 1) You morph another drone now or wait 6.25 seconds to morph overlord, then 6.25 seconds more to morph drone, losing 12.5 minerals in mining time 2) in 10o, after overlord you wait for 75 minerals during 8.34 seconds (9 drones mining) to do extractor trick, losing 10 minerals + about 3 in mining time if you are quick (you can't use 4 minerals as Klive5ive pointed out). So far both builds are pretty even. 3) in 9o build, you get 11th drone 12.5-8.34 ~ 4 seconds later than 10o+ExtTr, 12th drone 12.5 seconds faster (because of faster ovie). You don't have minerals for 13th drone for 5 seconds (10 drones mining), so it's 7.5 seconds faster. 4) In 10o+ExtTr, you have minerals for 12th and 13th right after ovie (well, sometimes it is 99), but they come later because for 12.5 seconds later ovie as described in #3. Conclusion: 9o build is ahead by about 15 minerals compared to 10o+Extractor trick, assuming player loses abut 3 seconds in mining time doing the trick. The trouble with your analysis is that "1mineral per second on average" an inaccurate way of measuring income. The mathematical modelling required to accurately calculate what happens is deceptively complicated. Before I made my post I started an excel sheet that would add up the contribution of each drone on different patches but realised it was an incredible amount of work and effort. However, you cleverly identified all the differences between the two builds and estimated the effect. The important thing is we both came to the same conclusion. Edit: I don't think it's close. 9o is better. As I said before the cost of the extrick alone is more than the lost mining time on drone10. | ||
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goszar
Belarus119 Posts
"1mineral per second on average" comes from the article of SC2 theorist I fully respect (I can give you links if you understand Russian). Also my calculations were off, it's actually 3.5 minerals difference. So I assume the builds are equal if you ignore odd 4 minerals. That theorist promised to do the guide on Zerg builds, i'm waiting for it. He has already done Terran one, the biggest conclusions he made is that 9Rax -11 depot - orbital is equal to 10 depot -12 rax- orbital; and the best FE build is 9Rax-11depot-14CC. | ||
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[F_]aths
Germany3947 Posts
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TanukTanukTuk
United States40 Posts
In essence I made my experiment reproducible. Now, when I was testing 10 overlord + extractor trick, I always sent a drone at 65 minerals to create the extractor. I guesstimated this timing was most efficient because it makes the extractor right when you get 75 minerals, so you can make a drone and immediately cancel. Using this method and performing six trials for each build, I found that 9 overlord and 10 overlord+extractor produced similar results. 9 overlord seemed to always have 165 minerals at the 1:50 mark whereas 10 overlord+extractor had between 164 minerals and 169 minerals, which is to say the build are about the same. I will note that in every experiment (replay) 10 overlord+extractor hit the 200 (204 actually for 10o+e) mineral mark around 1:55 whereas 9 overlord hit it around 1:57. This is because at the I think I happened to choose a poor time using the 1:50 mark wherein a drone or 2 was about to return minerals but did not have the chance to. I really can't think of anything else to which to attribute this discrepancy. All in all, I don't think this is really worth nitpicking over as your split as well as the arrangement of the minerals at which you spawn, as well as making sure you're sending drones to the correct patches probably has a much greater influence on the speed and timing of your build. Hope this answers your questions. edit I realized I did not try doing 10 overlord no extractor (bad scientist!) assuming that people on the forums were correct (again bad assumption  ) and found that actually it was actually no worse than the other two builds having between 165-170 minerals. So I guess build however you feel like? | ||
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Klive5ive
United Kingdom6056 Posts
On April 19 2010 17:04 TanukTanukTuk wrote: All in all, I don't think this is really worth nitpicking over as your split as well as the arrangement of the minerals at which you spawn, as well as making sure you're sending drones to the correct patches probably has a much greater influence on the speed and timing of your build. . I think this is a very important point. In BW when you watch the pros play you often see them microing 5 workers onto 4 minerals patches early game; maximising the closest mineral advtantage. This is even more important in SC2. Here's something I noticed about SC2. If early game you try to send a worker to a patch that is already being mined. If it doesn't hit that perfect timing where it creates a pair with the first drone it will always move to the closest free mineral patch EVEN if it has to move past all the patches to get there, and those patches are faster mining. It wont even TRY to mine from the other patches it just ignores them and moves to the free patch. With that in mind knowing which patches are the fastest and setting up your "mining pairs" early game, is going to give you a decent advantage in SC2. As for "10 Overlord is better for SCoverpool". That is true BUT it might also be better for 13 pool too. If you're planning on waiting on 15 for your pool to finish so you can make 6 lings then the larvae advantage you gained from 9ol might not actually be worth it. I think we maybe need to look closer at 10ol since people made this assumption about 8ol in BW, assuming it was better. But then people realised since they were 12 hatching 11 pooling the larvae advantage was not significant. | ||
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G4MR
United States371 Posts
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HeyheyLBJ
Sweden160 Posts
Each drone up to 16 will mine with the same efficiency, namely very close to 0.69 minerals per (game) second. I therefore chose to let the builds converge at 16 workers, a Pool, and two Overlords (Pool built at 14 supply, OL at 16). I have the exact time for everything, but I chose to focus on these timings: * 16 workers * Second OL * Pool completed * First larva spawn after Pool Note that these results are not subject to any personal skills with splitting workers or anything of the sort. About the fractions mined, think of them as the positions of the drones. Ie. 1090.83 mined means that 1090 have been collected, and the position of the drones are valued at 0.83 extra. If they all hung out at the hatchery doing nothing, that value would be 0.00. The results: 9OL: 16 workers @ 154s. OL @ 152s. Pool @ 173s. Larva @ 182s. This build will have mined 1090.83 @ 154s. 1299.26 @ 173s. 10OL: 16 workers @ 156s. OL @ 154s. Pool @ 173s. Larva @ 184s. This build will have mined 1086.03 @ 154s. 1293.77 @ 173s. 10OL with extractor trick: 16 workers @ 154s. OL @ 152s. Pool @ 174s. Larva @ 182s. This build will have mined* 1085.51 @ 154s. 1293.94 @ 173s. *6 minerals removed from the mining total because of lost minerals due to cancelling extractor. 8OL: 16 workers @ 158s. OL @ 156s. Pool @ 156s. Larva @ 186s. This build will have mined 1070.94 @ 154s. 1277.32 @ 173s. Graph: http://pici.se/pictures/UFCSyZTIM.jpg (X-axis is game seconds, Y-axis is total mined). Conclusion: 9 OL is tied with 10 OL (ext trick) when it comes to the different timings (except the Pool which comes 1 second later for the 10 OL (ext trick) build). But it has mined more at all those times when we've accounted for that 6 minerals were lost due to extractor cancel. All in all, 9 OL is slightly superior in every way. | ||
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goszar
Belarus119 Posts
I have recently seen the following build in Zotac cup played by some Oger guy: 10 Drones Extractor trick Overlord 3 Drones when overlord pops (one is usually 1 second late) Spawning pool (it is at 14). The other player did usual 10Ol and was 50 minerals behind and about 2 seconds behind on 14 drones. I have watched several times - they were equal up to 10 drones. My calculations show that this is superior even to 9o by small amount assuming you are going for 14 pool. | ||
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Hammy
France828 Posts
Here is the test I conducted: I played three games, using three different build order "tactics". To standardize the test, I never split my drones at the beginning. I just clicked on the nearest mineral patch and let them do their work (this test is about comparing builds amongst each other, which requires as much normalization as possible). Also, the general build older was always: -13 pool -14 extractor -16 queen -18 zergling (just the one, since it's standard to chase the enemy worker if you want to expand, or just to scout) -Speed at exactly 100 gas -21 drone (check the time at which I made my last drone before queen is done) Perhaps the 13pool is a bad choice, and we might test this in our next installement, but this isn't the issue here (though I love this build). To get an idea of which BO "tactic" is best, I used the "build order" tab when a game ends, and wrote down the timings for the spawning pool, the queen, the zergling, zergling speed (which means 100 gas) and 21st drone (last unit built before queen pops). Many of these timings are redundant, but I took all of them to weed out human mistakes. Game1: The 9 Overlord build! -13 pool: 1:49 -16 queen: 2:54 -18 zergling: 3:07 -zergling speed: 3:34 -21st drone: 3:37 Game2: Regular 10 Overlord build! -13 pool: 1:48 -16 queen: 2:54 -18 zergling: 3:07 -zergling speed: 3:34 -21st drone: 3:37 Game3: The 10 Overlord with extractor trick! -13 pool: 1:49 -16 queen: 2:55 -18 zergling: 3:07 -zergling speed: 3:34 (amazing how accurate this is, considering the variability in building extractor, beginning to mine gas etc...) -21st drone: 3:39 (I slacked off here, pretty sure it should have been at around 3:37. In my defense it's been a long day^^ I checked the replay, and yeah the larvae poped a bit before I began to build). Results: Well the timings are all the same (no this isn't rigged, I'm really suprised by how close these number are). I don't think a 1s difference is a relevant result since we're talking about fractions of seconds here. I was spamming with hotkey and mouse click to try to make the results accurate, but there's still AI and human response to take into consideration  .Conclusions: => The three builds are identical! Do whichever you like. You should note that the extractor trick makes you lose 2x "drone returning minerals", and that in this test I got lucky: My drone started building the extractor and my 10th(11th) drone started morphing at exactly 75minerals. Also, when I canceled the extractor, the closest mineral patch was cleared to avoid losing time in mining. I think I executed this well, but it's easy to get an extractor trick a few seconds off when massing games (which means this isn't my prefered choice). => Based on what I've got here, just like in SC:BW, your larvae production doesn't seem to stop at 3 larvae. Of course the 4th larvae won't pop, but the respawn cooldown will begin. Perhaps there's a minimum respawn time, but in the 10overlord build, that minimum respawn time (if it exists) doesn't apply. Basically, when using a 10 overlord build, you're not wasting larvae spawn time, since none of my later units were delayed. Too long:didn't read: 9 overlord = 10 overlord = 10 overlord w/ extractor trick WITH THE 13POOL BUILD If going for an overpool, obviously you should 10OL. | ||
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Klive5ive
United Kingdom6056 Posts
On April 19 2010 18:22 HeyheyLBJ wrote: All in all, 9 OL is slightly superior in every way. This is the 3rd person to come to the same conclusion then. I think we can put that argument to bed now. 9ol is the best build if you're going to drone to 16. However, in your test LBJ you didn't give the mineral count at the time you would want to 13 pool etc... | ||
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Klive5ive
United Kingdom6056 Posts
On April 19 2010 20:18 Hammy wrote: Too long:didn't read: 9 overlord = 10 overlord = 10 overlord w/ extractor trick WITH THE 13POOL BUILD If going for an overpool, obviously you should 10OL. This is confirmation of what I was trying to explain. With a 13 pool instant mineral count is important since you can't rebuild that 13th drone until you've placed the spawning pool. Your analysis wasn't as precise as people above so we still can't be 100% sure what is best for 13pool (but I expect all 3 are very close as you suggested.) | ||
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HeyheyLBJ
Sweden160 Posts
On April 19 2010 20:00 goszar wrote: HeyheyLBJ Thanks a lot. I have recently seen the following build in Zotac cup played by some Oger guy: 10 Drones Extractor trick Overlord 3 Drones when overlord pops (one is usually 1 second late) Spawning pool (it is at 14). The other player did usual 10Ol and was 50 minerals behind and about 2 seconds behind on 14 drones. I have watched several times - they were equal up to 10 drones. My calculations show that this is superior even to 9o by small amount assuming you are going for 14 pool. This is the build I tested with. The 14th drone will come much faster with the extractor trick build since it is one of the drones in the first batch after the OL pops. So I'm not sure what you mean with 2 seconds and 50 minerals behind. | ||
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cyclone25
Romania3344 Posts
On April 08 2010 18:45 Tipton wrote: How about a double extractor trick (at around 100min) for a 10/12 ovie ? I saw Check doing it once. I'm curious about it too. | ||
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HeyheyLBJ
Sweden160 Posts
9OL: 16 workers @ 169s Pool @ 168s OL @ 137s Larva @ 182s Mined 1218.35 @ 168s 900.22 @ 137s 10OL: 16 workers @ 171s Pool @ 168s OL @ 139s Larva @ 184s Mined 1215.61 @ 168s 898.85 @ 137s 10OL (ext trick): 16 workers @ 169s Pool @ 168s OL @ 137s Larva @ 182s Mined 1212.35 @ 168s 894.22 @ 137s Kinda funny that the 10OL (ext trick) build has mined the EXACT amount of minerals as the 9OL at both times if it weren't for those 6 minerals lost. This despite getting drones at different timings. If it didn't cost anything to cancel extractors, the 9OL build and the 10OL (ext trick) build would be the EXACT same thing if you're 13-pooling. As it is now, 9OL is superior. 10OL is behind in larvae production but is mining kinda well. Again: 9OL is slightly superior in every way. It also gets the first OL out faster to scout with. | ||
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HeyheyLBJ
Sweden160 Posts
On April 19 2010 21:00 cyclone25 wrote: I saw Check doing it once. I'm curious about it too. Well, you'd have to do it at around 150 mins (25+25+50+50). Think of it as the same thing as 10OL with a single extractor trick, just that you lose 6 minerals extra and won't mine it back. The timings are all _exactly_ the same. | ||
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goszar
Belarus119 Posts
On April 19 2010 20:50 HeyheyLBJ wrote: This is the build I tested with. The 14th drone will come much faster with the extractor trick build since it is one of the drones in the first batch after the OL pops. So I'm not sure what you mean with 2 seconds and 50 minerals behind. There are two different 10 Overlord Extractor Trick builds: 1) Extractor Trick then Overlord. 2) Overlord then Extractor trick. First one is better according to my calculations. Which did you use? I'm trying to argue that the build i presented is superior to all that you tested (assuming 14 pool). And in that replay Oger guy had 50 minerals more and 2 seconds faster 14th drone than the guy who went 10OL. | ||
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HeyheyLBJ
Sweden160 Posts
On April 19 2010 22:33 goszar wrote: There are two different 10 Overlord Extractor Trick builds: 1) Extractor Trick then Overlord. 2) Overlord then Extractor trick. First one is better according to my calculations. Which did you use? I'm trying to argue that the build i presented is superior to all that you tested (assuming 14 pool). And in that replay Oger guy had 50 minerals more and 2 seconds faster 14th drone than the guy who went 10OL. I used the first one, ext trick then ol. Oh, than a normal 10OL. Yeah, the 14th drone comes out exactly 2 seconds earlier, but #11 and #12 comes out much later, and #11 obv much earlier. My tests concluded that 10OL with ext trick is indeed better than a normal 10OL build, but the 50 more minerals that early is nowhere to be seen. Could you post the replay? | ||
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goszar
Belarus119 Posts
On April 19 2010 22:50 HeyheyLBJ wrote: I used the first one, ext trick then ol. Oh, than a normal 10OL. Yeah, the 14th drone comes out exactly 2 seconds earlier, but #11 and #12 comes out much later, and #11 obv much earlier. My tests concluded that 10OL with ext trick is indeed better than a normal 10OL build, but the 50 more minerals that early is nowhere to be seen. Could you post the replay? Actually the difference was about 30 minerals but it was because OgerEli did not scout. So we can safely say that 9o is best for all standard builds. http://www.mediafire.com/?tyzxmtyhjoy | ||
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ashburn
Singapore76 Posts
On April 19 2010 18:22 HeyheyLBJ wrote: I've researched this and come to a conclusion. I've currently measured four different openings: 9 OL, 10OL, 10OL with ext trick, and 8 OL (just for fun). Graph: http://pici.se/pictures/UFCSyZTIM.jpg (X-axis is game seconds, Y-axis is total mined). OMG... this is pretty hardcore stuff... I've always wondered about 9o and 10o.. seeing how players in cup matches vary between 9o and 10o. From the posts, it seems I should go 9o from now on... | ||
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Stropheum
United States1124 Posts
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cartoon]x
United States606 Posts
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ashburn
Singapore76 Posts
On April 23 2010 20:48 cartoon]x wrote: I never thought about the hatchery position effecting income !! does it? | ||
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3clipse
Canada2555 Posts
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Nivra
37 Posts
If you're going to wait for 100 mins and then 200 mins to build up for an ovie and a pool, then having 2 extra drones mining to do it during the wait should be advantageous. Certainly your pool will come out 10 seconds or so later, but 12op+2e should have much better econ then a straight 10op. It may even catch up in larvae count to a 14 or 15pool due to the earlier queen. The bo ideally should be 10drones, then wait on 150 mins --> 2etrick. then overpool. I suppose you could do 75 mins --> 11/10, then 100 mins --> 12/10, doing the etrick a total of 3 times. This comes out the exact same, however. You lose an extra 7-8 mins for the extra trick, but you get the 11th drone 7-8 seconds earlier. They offset each other and you get the 12th drone at the same time. However, if you get unlucky and lose 8 mins, gaining only 7 mins mined, it's a smidgeon later. Easier to just wait for 150 mins. PS> I just realized this is slightly offtopic, since the thread was about 9ov vs. 10ov+e, but | ||
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Nivra
37 Posts
Of course it does. If hatchery is above your mins, your larvae spawn next to the mins. If hatchery is below your mins, your larvae have to go around to the mins, probably taking 1-2 seconds longer. 2 seconds * 15 larvae = 30 mins. It's worse than that, because it compounds. The extra mins from the time saved actually allows you to get drones out earlier, giving you more extra mins. Getting drones 7-9 1-2 seconds earlier each gives 5 extra mins, which allows you to get the 10th drone out 2-3 seconds earlier(2 mins). That might allow you to get the 11th drone out 4-5 seconds earlier, the 12th out 7-8 seconds earlier, etc. For those of you who rally each individual egg, it's much easier to rally in the former position than in the latter position. This is of course why the south position on Desert Oasis is a tiny bit better than the north position. Interesting enough, Zerg are the only race to have this problem. CC's and Nexus don't care where you place them. The SCV's/drones spawn in the direction of the rally. | ||
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Xapti
Canada2473 Posts
but I have had experience doing 12 pool before overlord using 2 double gas tricks to try and use up larva. It was one of the first builds I ever did, and can perform a seemingly excellent 4-8 (6) roach rush. Problem with 12pool before overlord, is not only do you still waste a bit of larva timing (maybe 1/4 to 1/3 of a larva, as opposed to 1/2 or 2/3 if you only do 1 double extractor trick), but you're loosing mining time and minerals from the extractor trick. I did a quite intense comparison with I think it was a standard 13 pool, possibly not even an efficient one, and the 12pool seemed to loose to it quite badly. Even though I got a queen earlier, I still had a bit of sacrificed economy. I can't say my comparison was guaranteed flawless, but i spent quite a bit of time on it, and both players didn't seemingly make any major mistakes. 12pool is not a build I'd recommend for anyone, except maybe a roach rush (which could probably be easily defended if scouted), since I found some very tight timings for a roach rush build with that strat.. | ||
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OldSkuLL
Turkey34 Posts
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gaizka
United States991 Posts
On April 08 2010 23:48 goszar wrote: Klive5ive "1mineral per second on average" comes from the article of SC2 theorist I fully respect (I can give you links if you understand Russian). Also my calculations were off, it's actually 3.5 minerals difference. So I assume the builds are equal if you ignore odd 4 minerals. That theorist promised to do the guide on Zerg builds, i'm waiting for it. He has already done Terran one, the biggest conclusions he made is that 9Rax -11 depot - orbital is equal to 10 depot -12 rax- orbital; and the best FE build is 9Rax-11depot-14CC. Post the info when you get it please | ||
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Cheerio
Ukraine3178 Posts
Because you can build drones as soon as larva pops out and you build scvs and probes 1 after another. Delaying 1 probe is delaying all the others that would spawn after - it's VERY BAD. | ||
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locopuyo
United States143 Posts
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Curu
Canada2817 Posts
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zLnoEk
United States95 Posts
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CrunkOwns
United States138 Posts
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Wi)nD
Canada719 Posts
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carlcarlsen
Germany9 Posts
On April 24 2010 07:08 zLnoEk wrote: I get my overlord at 9 every game. I didn't do any actual /research/. But, it /feels/ like it's faster. similar here. I didn't care too much about the economic advantage (but now that I know that - even better!) but rather the psychological advantage in terms of "okay, if the other guy is rushing me, I need to worry less about the food count when I (have to) place my pool earlier than planned." | ||
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mnck
Denmark1518 Posts
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Gulzt
Netherlands275 Posts
It is widely accepted that 9 lord is fastest, then 10extr, then 10 lord, right? Now a slightly different question. The reason 9 lord is faster is because the mining-time you lose on drone 10, is made back by drone 11 & 12 right? But what if you're going 11 pool? I noticed in the GSL Code A this season July vs Hero that July goes 10 lord.. the slowest of the 3 according to everyone. But only gets drone 11 out afterwards and then his pool. http://www.gomtv.net/2012gsls1/vod/66733/?set=2&lang= Made me wonder, did July test it all out and is it the fastest way when you go 11 pool? It seems to make sense given that you're not getting your 12th drone right away. What are your thoughts on it? | ||
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Tal0n
United States175 Posts
have you ever tried 8 overlord? | ||
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Gulzt
Netherlands275 Posts
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=133917 | ||
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kaluro
Netherlands760 Posts
On April 08 2010 08:52 Zelniq wrote: @ bongjwa: cus overlords took so much longer to build in BWit was better to just get your 9th first. think about the extreme, if overlord took 5 minutes to build in bw woldnt it make sense to get drone first No, because if it took 5 minutes to spawn, you would be maxing 3 larvae for longer than if you would go overlord first. Those seconds you could queue up 3 workers at a time. Getting those workers out faster means faster additional larvae and faster mining time for those drones. a single drone that mines 40 minerals/minute would not be better than faster larvae/faster 3 drones. But then again I never played BW and dont know how fast 50 minerals would go when capped without having spawned an overlord. | ||
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XxMulexX
Canada57 Posts
No, because if it took 5 minutes to spawn, you would be maxing 3 larvae for longer than if you would go overlord first. Those seconds you could queue up 3 workers at a time. Getting those workers out faster means faster additional larvae and faster mining time for those drones. a single drone that mines 40 minerals/minute would not be better than faster larvae/faster 3 drones. But then again I never played BW and dont know how fast 50 minerals would go when capped without having spawned an overlord. That's wrong. He used the exaggeration of an ovie taking 5 min to illustrate his point; and if an ovie did take 5 min, you would be much better off having an extra drone mining for several second since the build time of the ovie would give you plenty of time to get to 3 larva by the time he pops out. You can't get those extra 2 drones in his example since you are supply blocked at 10 food. | ||
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StarscreamG1
Portugal1652 Posts
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