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On March 14 2010 12:33 Zeke50100 wrote:
Realize that this is (much) more efficient if you immediately unload drones, rather than waiting every 16 seconds.
Someone with incredible APM go try this. You basically have to hit the hotkeys as often as possible to ensure maximum mining.
We can't get accurate pro-level efficiency of this without...well, taking a pro-level player (or pro-esque APM player)
The 16 seconds is the speed at which it takes the drones to unload, mine, and reload. Depositing seems to be near instant, though the drones still go in and out one at a time.
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On March 14 2010 12:25 sob3k wrote:
Ok, I tested myself...
16 drones, 8 blue crystals
RESULT:
-5 Minutes of Nydus Mining: 1275min
-5 Minutes Normal Mining: 4025min
Normal mining is over 315% better.
This strat may be dead.
well...its better than distance mining...maybe
The "strat" of nydus mining instead of expanding may be dead but this is still something very interesting / unexpected to know that could work well while building an expansion 
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Try it with 8 drones 8 crystals? If your second 8 drones have to wait for the first 8 to finish, it's going to delay the loading/unloading of the first 8.
Also how much can you mine in 80 seconds (not including drone transit)? That seems substantial. In fact super maynarding might be worth it if your drones take say 30 seconds to get to a far away expansion.
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On March 14 2010 12:33 Zeke50100 wrote:
Realize that this is (much) more efficient if you immediately unload drones, rather than waiting every 16 seconds.
Someone with incredible APM go try this. You basically have to hit the hotkeys as often as possible to ensure maximum mining.
We can't get accurate pro-level efficiency of this without...well, taking a pro-level player (or pro-esque APM player)
No, this is not how it works, you clearly don't understand how nydus network functions. If you simply "mash" the hotkeys for the head and the network, efficiency will be shit. Nydus is not like the original SC, it is not a point to point teleporter. If I tell the drones to go into the head, they are stored in the same "pool" as drones that go into the network. The only way to avoid doing nydus mining in batches would be to manually click on the head and network, and manually wireframe drop every drone individually while somehow figuring out which ones were holding minerals. This is not possible by ANY stretch of the imagination.
Do you even have beta?
On March 14 2010 12:34 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2010 12:25 sob3k wrote:
Ok, I tested myself...
16 drones, 8 blue crystals
RESULT:
-5 Minutes of Nydus Mining: 1275min
-5 Minutes Normal Mining: 4025min
Normal mining is over 315% better.
This strat may be dead.
well...its better than distance mining...maybe Can you do another test for me? (I don't have a beta, I would test this myself if I could) What if you put 3 nydus worms at the same expansion? One of the limiting factors of mining speed is the speed at which drones exit the nyduses, so maybe increasing the number of worms up front (and paying more) would increase output speed. You might have to add worms next to the hatch as well... 2athatch/2atexpo might double the speed?
I can tell you without testing that this wont help, the limiting factor is not the speed they come out, its the fact that you have to do them in batches and wait for most of them to be back in before returning to the hatch.
also:
The cost of 4 nydus: 450 minerals 500 gas
completely unfeasible.
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This trick has some very rare circumstances when it would be useful, plus your macro would have to be insane to pull this off on every cycle and take care of other tasks.
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I don't think you will ever mine as quickly as a fully saturated hatchery. I'd actually like to see some statistics on this with various amounts of drones mining compared with a regular hatchery. I'm sure the trick will be useful in certain games. Mining high yield minerals with it sounds interesting.
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On March 14 2010 12:12 love1another wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2010 08:57 MamiyaOtaru wrote:from the dupe thread (closed) It should be possible in SC1 too tho, right? with a nydus canal.. Or does the canal take away the mineral from the drone in SC1? I dont remember. except you can't have a nydus canal without creep, which generally implies hatchery If you already have a hatch there.. False. You can worm anywhere you have sight. As of the latest patch. And regardless, overlords can drop creep, so the distinction between sight/creep is in most cases trivial.
He didn't say worm; he was comparing with SC:BW
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On March 14 2010 12:57 sob3k wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2010 12:33 Zeke50100 wrote:
Realize that this is (much) more efficient if you immediately unload drones, rather than waiting every 16 seconds.
Someone with incredible APM go try this. You basically have to hit the hotkeys as often as possible to ensure maximum mining.
We can't get accurate pro-level efficiency of this without...well, taking a pro-level player (or pro-esque APM player) No, this is not how it works, you clearly don't understand how nydus network functions. If you simply "mash" the hotkeys for the head and the network, efficiency will be shit. Nydus is not like the original SC, it is not a point to point teleporter. If I tell the drones to go into the head, they are stored in the same "pool" as drones that go into the network. The only way to avoid doing nydus mining in batches would be to manually click on the head and network, and manually wireframe drop every drone individually while somehow figuring out which ones were holding minerals. This is not possible by ANY stretch of the imagination. Do you even have beta?
No, that's not what he is saying. He is saying don't wait 16 seconds for the drones to load up and another 16 to return cargo as they finish in less time. HDstarcraft said to unload every 16 seconds which is wrong and it's what caused the confusion.
What HD meant was the complete cycle of unloading, mining, and unloading again to return cargo takes about 16 seconds.
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Isnt it possible to unload faster? Even when for example a few drones are still outside mining? I mean.. if the whole cooldown is heavily affected by the speed they get out of a nydus and for big part no units are actually leaving the nydus, isnt it possible to load/unload more frequently. It isnt as if you need 16 seconds to unload 16 drones right?
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copied my post from the other thread
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just messed around with this
If you hotkey all the drones you're using in the mining to a control group, the control group bar thats in the bottom middle of your screen tells you when all the drones are loaded into the canal/when you can press D
Say you have 12 drones and you're mining 6 high yield patches. Hotkey all your drones to 6. Hotkey nydus at gold mins to 4, hotkey hydus next to hatch to 5. Your 6 hotkey should be an icon of a drone with the number 12, telling you that you have 12 drones out on the map. When you put them into the nydus your hotkey goes blank, because the units are not on the map
as you unload your drones from the min nydus (hotkey 4), the drone control group hotkey counts up to the total (12) and then counts back down to null as the drones finish mining and go back into the nydus. Once the control group becomes null, press your hatchery nydus (5) and unload. Now your drone control group hotkey button will flash to 1 and null as drones exit and immediately reenter. Once the stops flashing all the drones have unloaded and you repeat the process
This way you don't have to count in your head 16 seconds, you just watch the screen
Its a LOT slower than normal mining
because you can't load and unload until all the drones have completed mining (or else you'll get weird issues with the nydus. The nydus only unload current units so you cant start unloading the hatch nydus once the first few min drones enter it, because the other min drones wont be unloaded) I would only have #patches +1 or 2 drones. Or else you'll get time issues of waiting for straggling miners to finish before you can unload them
this also means it requires more attention
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I think the best part of this is the ability to quickly and cheaply set up expansions. Think about this - when your expansion gets attacked you lose more than the hatchery - you'll probably lose the drones too. If you have 16 drones that's 1100 minerals total down the drain if you get attacked.
How about the alternative - use a Nydus worm and pull your drones out once you see them coming! You lose only 100/100, and you can start mining from a different expansion almost immediately.
Seems like an excellent strategy to me, even if it's slower than normal mining.
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This is so nice def. try this out aap.
very usefull thread thx
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On March 15 2010 04:32 Koffiegast wrote:
Isnt it possible to unload faster? Even when for example a few drones are still outside mining? I mean.. if the whole cooldown is heavily affected by the speed they get out of a nydus and for big part no units are actually leaving the nydus, isnt it possible to load/unload more frequently. It isnt as if you need 16 seconds to unload 16 drones right?
Yes, you can begin unloading when drones are still not quite done mining. I did this for my test which is how I squeezed out a few hundred more mins than the prev tester. It doesn't matter though, its still blows compared to a hatchery.
On March 14 2010 12:25 sob3k wrote:
Ok, I tested myself...
16 drones, 8 blue crystals
RESULT:
-5 Minutes of Nydus Mining: 1275min
-5 Minutes Normal Mining: 4025min
Normal mining is over 315% better.
This strat may be dead.
well...its better than distance mining...maybe
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Might it not be a more interesting idea to use it as a way to get more gas instead of minerals? I suppose the extra cost and time needed for an extractor are fairly big negatives but any extra sources of gas are a good thing right?
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I think that will be used a lot..despite demotivation users-.-
this trick is just insane..and remember a lot the nexus behind the minera line on BW
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this strat can really work on gold minerals in skilled hands. At least to start mining minerals, while hatchery is building. It makes possible to quickly break-even risky expansions. Third exp for zerg in such a manner would be awesome.
It also could help, when both players are low on resources and do not let each other to make an exp.
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On March 14 2010 12:25 sob3k wrote:
Normal mining is over 315% better.
On March 14 2010 11:43 7mk wrote:
after 5 minutes I got 900 mins, excluding the costs of the nydus(with 16 drones)
I could have been a bit faster unloading drones but I dont think anyone busy with a real late game would be able to do so.
doing a normal hatch it took me 4 minutes to get those 900 mins, including the cost (and drone sending + building time)of the hatchery. I did however start mining with 16 drones the second the hatchery was done, which is prolly never gonna happen in a real game.
maybe more ppl should try this out because to me it sounds like both of u have completely different outcomes when it comes to its efficiency
i think its best if u could include the actual pure mining of 2-3 minutes instead of including factors such as how long time it takes for a hatchery to build or how much it costs, it should be easier to first find out how much faster 16 normal drones mine before u start comparing the build times imo :p
ill see if i can try this myself in a custom game
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wow... that looks sick. I'm gonna def try this
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I hope someone can make this econ strategy viable. It would make zerg really unique and create interesting dynamics where protoss and terran have to build static defense or leave units at expansions all across the map so that the worm destination can't be placed. This also feels very "zergy" in that as someone posted earlier, you have a central "hive cluster" where all the units get built at a central location and get tunneled around... much more exciting than current zerg play imo.
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lol, for some reason my drones don't go back into the nydus worm/networks after mining and returning cargo. whats wrong here? did they patch it or something..
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EPT
