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kasumimi
Greece460 Posts
Am I missing something as a protoss player on this? Besides spreading :p 3 ghosts can do roughly 4-5 emps and it's like trying to avoid a storm that 1 shots your army, so it's simply can't be dodged. I feel humiliated and abused any tips or help are appreciated. | ||
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Chairman Ray
United States11903 Posts
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caution.slip
United States775 Posts
you can also try putting your HTs in a shuttle so they dont get their energy raped by EMP (not sure if this works in SC2) also 150 food really isn't early game... | ||
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asdfTT123
United States989 Posts
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StorrZerg
United States13919 Posts
On March 03 2010 16:39 caution.slip wrote: hmm, whats the range on EMP compared to feedback. Since you can put obs over his army you should be able to get the first shot you can also try putting your HTs in a shuttle so they dont get their energy raped by EMP (not sure if this works in SC2) also 150 food really isn't early game... he said dozens of losses late game for the 150 food remark | ||
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Iplaythings
Denmark9110 Posts
I don't know but maybe use them like a reaver in starcraft 2? Unload, storm, reload. | ||
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Khac
United States4 Posts
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Kinky
United States4126 Posts
Having an obs over their army should help tons since it allows you to setup beforehand and storm before they can react fast enough to EMP. | ||
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Odds
Canada1188 Posts
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Ftrunkz
Australia2474 Posts
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Plexa
Aotearoa39261 Posts
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zazen
Brazil695 Posts
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Ziph
Netherlands970 Posts
Edit: Don't have much problems late game as i dont even get there :D | ||
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IdrA
United States11541 Posts
chances are you're not abusing the early game hard enough and so you're playing the mid game from behind, which makes everything seem more powerful than it actually is. | ||
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Hobbes.uhz
United States33 Posts
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CakeOrI)eath
United States327 Posts
On March 03 2010 23:30 IdrA wrote: emp is not overpowered, if t didnt have emp tvp would be literally impossible. chances are you're not abusing the early game hard enough and so you're playing the mid game from behind, which makes everything seem more powerful than it actually is. The first half of sc2 I tried to power through tvp without ghosts. Needless to say I got raped. I agree with IdrA, EMP is powerful, but without it the whole matchup would be imbalanced. | ||
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Amber[LighT]
United States5078 Posts
On March 03 2010 23:32 Hobbes.uhz wrote: By the time he has 3 ghosts, you can have 3 collosus. Then you win head to head vs a bio army, even with EMP. This. If you see a ghost academy and just barracks production units I don't see why you would skip the colossus tech... | ||
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Derby
Sweden31 Posts
 The problem is that to me it seems so easy to build up your army and get the Ghost pretty fast while it feels like it takes a longer time for a Protoss to get a decent army with Colossus, charge and storm. I've lost a couple of times to Terrans getting Ghosts asap, | ||
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Volshok
United States349 Posts
On March 03 2010 23:32 Hobbes.uhz wrote: By the time he has 3 ghosts, you can have 3 collosus. Then you win head to head vs a bio army, even with EMP. Most Terrans who go for a Psio timing push either go too early for you to reach critical mass for Colossus, or will bring vikings. | ||
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Monokeros
United States2493 Posts
On March 04 2010 00:35 Volshok wrote: Most Terrans who go for a Pyso timing push either go too early for you to reach critical mass for Colossus, or will bring vikings. I would love to see a Terran that can get enough vikings that can kill the phoneix's and get to the collossus before their whole army melts. So far the only success I've had vs any toss is going banshees, but usually it's because the toss is doing some kind of silly void ray/templar tech and they dont have collossus anyways (so I would've probably won if I went standard EMP push) | ||
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SoleSteeler
Canada5447 Posts
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-orb-
United States5770 Posts
On March 03 2010 23:32 Hobbes.uhz wrote: By the time he has 3 ghosts, you can have 3 collosus. Then you win head to head vs a bio army, even with EMP. How the hell do you figure? 3 colossi are useless when they get oneshot by his army after the EMP. They'll get off one shot each which isn't nearly enough to decimate the terran army the way their EMP decimates the protoss army. Any good terran will target fire your colossi and if they are EMP'd they will drop like flies. | ||
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Volshok
United States349 Posts
On March 04 2010 00:40 Monokeros wrote: I would love to see a Terran that can get enough vikings that can kill the phoneix's and get to the collossus before their whole army melts. So far the only success I've had vs any toss is going banshees, but usually it's because the toss is doing some kind of silly void ray/templar tech and they dont have collossus anyways (so I would've probably won if I went standard EMP push) Sounds like you are waiting too long before you hit. You want Stim, +1/+1, Combat shield, a M&M mass, then 1-2 ghosts, medivacs, and Vikings. Download CowGoMoo's replay pack. It has numerous instances of this build against top tier players (Artosis, Louder are all I can think off off hand). | ||
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zazen
Brazil695 Posts
On March 03 2010 18:50 Odds wrote: If you can feedback his Ghosts You can't. Best bet seems to be to kill the T before ghosts are out. Tonight I'll be attempting storms in PvT and see how it goes... It was the main reason bio wasn't used in PvT play so it *has* to be at least slightly effective in SC2... | ||
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kasumimi
Greece460 Posts
On March 04 2010 04:00 zazen wrote: You can't. Best bet seems to be to kill the T before ghosts are out. Tonight I'll be attempting storms in PvT and see how it goes... It was the main reason bio wasn't used in PvT play so it *has* to be at least slightly effective in SC2... Storms are great and the completely negate Bio armies assuming your Templars avoid the emps. However a Terran can get Ghosts much much faster than a Toss can get Templars and therefore beat you much earlier with Bio. | ||
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iounas
409 Posts
On March 04 2010 01:09 Volshok wrote: Sounds like you are waiting too long before you hit. You want Stim, +1/+1, Combat shield, a M&M mass, then 1-2 ghosts, medivacs, and Vikings. Download CowGoMoo's replay pack. It has numerous instances of this build against top tier players (Artosis, Louder are all I can think off off hand). CowGoMoo is from blizzard. I just saw a vod talking about emp and feedback at the end.. I think emp is way too powerful.. You can get ghosts before templars.. Emp is aoe and can halve hp of entire protoss army and drain energy as a bonus. There is no way that anybody can pick out ghosts from mm army to do feedback faster than terran can emp.. | ||
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slained
Canada966 Posts
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MeruFM
United States167 Posts
High Templar: 50mineral 150 gas. storm does 80 to anything. The two attacks seem almost paralleled. Just makes both sides realize they can't bunch up their units onto a single hotkey. I mean didn't terran/zerg have this problem the entire time in starcraft 1? I'm sure everyone has seen storms take out entire 200/200 terran armies and massive groups of hydralisks. Now protoss players just have to deal with it as well at least against terran. | ||
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Ych9
Canada39 Posts
On March 07 2010 07:02 MeruFM wrote: I don't get how ghost emp is overpowered. 100mineral 200 gas. Emp does 100 damage to shields + drains all energy. High Templar: 50mineral 150 gas. storm does 80 to anything. The two attacks seem almost paralleled. Just makes both sides realize they can't bunch up their units onto a single hotkey. I mean didn't terran/zerg have this problem the entire time in starcraft 1? I'm sure everyone has seen storms take out entire 200/200 terran armies and massive groups of hydralisks. Now protoss players just have to deal with it as well at least against terran. I believe the problem with EMP is basically that it's undodgeable. Psi Storm, it gives you time to move your army away to minimize the damage. However, EMP is basically an instant AOE 100 damage to Protoss. | ||
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iounas
409 Posts
On March 07 2010 07:02 MeruFM wrote: I don't get how ghost emp is overpowered. 100mineral 200 gas. Emp does 100 damage to shields + drains all energy. High Templar: 50mineral 150 gas. storm does 80 to anything. The two attacks seem almost paralleled. Just makes both sides realize they can't bunch up their units onto a single hotkey. I mean didn't terran/zerg have this problem the entire time in starcraft 1? I'm sure everyone has seen storms take out entire 200/200 terran armies and massive groups of hydralisks. Now protoss players just have to deal with it as well at least against terran. Protoss army is more expensive so easily killing their army puts them in a bad position.. Look that vid 3.40 a group of mm take out a group of zeals, stalkers,immortals, collosus.. and draining energy from sentries and if protoss had ht-s they would also be useless.. basically it works too good and protoss cant counter it.. I have seen some TvP games with decent players using ghosts.. Its very hard to counter them and terran usually wins.. What do you do in that situation against mms.. collosus get raped by vikings.. stalkers suck as antiair, templars get drained, zealots get slowed down by marauders and killed by marines.. | ||
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kasumimi
Greece460 Posts
On March 07 2010 07:02 MeruFM wrote: I don't get how ghost emp is overpowered. 100mineral 200 gas. Emp does 100 damage to shields + drains all energy. High Templar: 50mineral 150 gas. storm does 80 to anything. The two attacks seem almost paralleled. Just makes both sides realize they can't bunch up their units onto a single hotkey. I mean didn't terran/zerg have this problem the entire time in starcraft 1? I'm sure everyone has seen storms take out entire 200/200 terran armies and massive groups of hydralisks. Now protoss players just have to deal with it as well at least against terran. Emp alone is not much overpowered. But the fact that it's, barracks --> ghost academy is too much imo. Being able to get the unit that counters the entire protoss army so early with no research is too match deciding. There was a reason the original Starcraft developers (who are long gone from Blizzard btw) had science vessel on such high tier on SC1 (racks -> factory -> starport -> facility -> reasearch). Similarly, templars are still gate -> core -> citadel -> archives -> research. Also emp is INSTANT and has wider radius than storm. I struggle to beat terrans anymore and if they know what they are doing I feel there's just no chance. I'm not a pro I was C tops on iccup but I lose to 30 apm people who do A-move and click emp from the action bar. | ||
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saritenite
Singapore1680 Posts
On March 07 2010 07:29 kasumimi wrote: Emp alone is not much overpowered. But the fact that it's, barracks --> ghost academy is too much imo. Being able to get the unit that counters the entire protoss army so early with no research is too match deciding. There was a reason the original Starcraft developers (who are long gone from Blizzard btw) had science vessel on such high tier on SC1 (racks -> factory -> starport -> facility -> reasearch). Similarly, templars are still gate -> core -> citadel -> archives -> research. Also emp is INSTANT and has wider radius than storm. I struggle to beat terrans anymore and if they know what they are doing I feel there's just no chance. I'm not a pro I was C tops on iccup but I lose to 30 apm people who do A-move and click emp from the action bar. You make a fair point. From the arguments above, it seems that removing the shields is really detrimental to the Protoss army, so that might be nerfed accordingly, increasing the energy cost or decreasing the amount of shields taken off (let's say to 20, that fair?) But leave the energy drain there, or any Terran will be fucked over by vortex and storm. Speaking as a Terran player, and from what I've seen on Brent's stream, Protoss is utterly difficult to play against because of the durability of their units. And Colossi and any storms that do go off simply tears through the Terran bio army. Go figure. | ||
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Badred
Canada129 Posts
On March 07 2010 07:02 MeruFM wrote: I don't get how ghost emp is overpowered. 100mineral 200 gas. Emp does 100 damage to shields + drains all energy. High Templar: 50mineral 150 gas. storm does 80 to anything. The two attacks seem almost paralleled. Just makes both sides realize they can't bunch up their units onto a single hotkey. I mean didn't terran/zerg have this problem the entire time in starcraft 1? I'm sure everyone has seen storms take out entire 200/200 terran armies and massive groups of hydralisks. Now protoss players just have to deal with it as well at least against terran. In addition to being instant and thus undodgeable as the poster above me mentioned, EMP is also much easier and faster to get than storm. EMP = Barracks (150/0, 60BT) - > Ghost Academy (150/50, 40BT) -> Ghost (100/200, 40BT) = 400/250 and only 150 seconds (2.5 minutes) before you have EMP once you start your barracks. Storm = Gateway (150/0, 65BT) -> Cyber Core (150/0, 50BT) -> Twilight Council (150/100, 50BT) -> Templar Archives (150/200, 50BT) -> Research Storm (200/200, 110BT) -> Templar (50/150, 55BT) = 860/650 and at minimum 325 seconds, or 6 and a half minutes (once you start a gateway), before you can get it. The fact that EMP drains all energy also means if a protoss gets a storm off on a ghost, it can (in addition to shrugging off the storm with 20hp left) shoot an EMP right back, whereas if the ghost gets the first shot off the Templar can't storm back (or do anything, for that matter). I think the obvious solution is to make the EMP field radius smaller, so it effects less units but can still be used to disable storm/clumps of templar/a small number of units. [Edit: Okay, I took so long to post this that "poster above me" is now 4 posts above me, and my whole point got sniped by a few of the folks up there too :p] | ||
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Teejing
Germany1360 Posts
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brocoli
Brazil264 Posts
Also, couldn't they make the archon's shields immune to EMP? SC1 lore stated that EMP works against protoss' shields because of cybernetic elements "start them up", but that isn't the case for archons. Edit: 2nd paragraph | ||
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Khadgars
United States38 Posts
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Mohdoo
United States15723 Posts
On March 07 2010 09:19 Khadgars wrote: One thing you are all forgetting to mention is the fact that EMP is completely worthless against Zerg, while Psi storm is extremely effective against all races. The HT is a much more versatile unit, balancing out EMP This is totally irrelevant. Its not like Terran should be balanced around the idea that one skill is useless against one race but INSANELY good against another. A unit should be useful in some sort of situation, that is true. But a unit not being used in one match-up doesn't mean that it should be twice as effective against another race. You are just missing the entire point. The fact is, EMP is completely overpowered against Protoss. That needs to change. Anything about Zerg is irrelevant. | ||
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ooni
Australia1498 Posts
There is ways to counter EMPs now; it's called feedback. Not only that feedback is very useful against zerg casters too. | ||
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Mohdoo
United States15723 Posts
On March 07 2010 09:29 ooni wrote: So ppl would like SC1 EMP back? have slight chance to dodge the projectile but removes all shields and energy? There is ways to counter EMPs now; it's called feedback. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h4GYoerJVCM Not only that feedback is very useful against zerg casters too. Read the thread before you reply. | ||
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Mazer
Canada1086 Posts
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ooni
Australia1498 Posts
I was merely juxtaposing the fact EMP is not that overpowered. SC1 EMP was pretty powerful too. Read the reply and understand it before you reply. Please. | ||
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StarBrift
Sweden1761 Posts
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s2pid_loser
United States699 Posts
so ht's are good against marines/reapers/marauders/sieges? but suck against ghost? | ||
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Sasajoe
Bulgaria46 Posts
wehn i play terran both races have extremely limited chance of survival when u use those spells so i think they should both be nerfed | ||
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jabberwokie
Canada142 Posts
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IdrA
United States11541 Posts
you just have to have the right unit mixture depending on their ghosts/vikings and keep your units spread out on mixed hotkeys. | ||
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Konni
Germany3044 Posts
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SturmAddict
Malaysia176 Posts
well i play all 3 races (mainly zerg) but tvp EMP is godly Overppowered simply because it drains energy & shields instantly & is unavoidable as is the hunter-seeker missle for the zerg when the terran masses ravens anyways wehn i play terran both races have extremely limited chance of survival when u use those spells so i think they should both be nerfed there is no such thing as "emp overpowered". only bad players ; ) abuse obs and feedback, since its so lategame anyways so you should have the tech. Protoss always have more storms then he has EMP, so keep ur units spread. | ||
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threehundred
Canada911 Posts
i've been playing protoss this week and i'm enjoying my mid-game mix of pure immortals/zealots/dts/sentries. | ||
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Feefee
Canada556 Posts
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GHOSTCLAW
United States17042 Posts
Also, get two robos if you need to. Stalker/immortal/collossus vs ht/dt/zeal. EMP doesn't melt collssus, and so if you get like 6 with thermal lance (easy with two robos), you still destroy bio without shields. | ||
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Lunat!c
122 Posts
On March 16 2010 21:43 IdrA wrote: emp is not overpowered, t would have no chance at all vs immortal/ht if it were weaker. you just have to have the right unit mixture depending on their ghosts/vikings and keep your units spread out on mixed hotkeys. Well, I think we are not all as good as u... But of course that would help but against 3 emp's no chance to avoid it. | ||
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Teejing
Germany1360 Posts
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MorroW
Sweden3522 Posts
On March 16 2010 23:00 Lunat!c wrote: Well, I think we are not all as good as u... But of course that would help but against 3 emp's no chance to avoid it. the only proper way to avoid emp is to feedback or kill the ghost its like saying us hould spread out against defiler plauge, i mean u can try but its impossible, u need to kill the defiler before he reaches ur army, same thing with hts when playing bio or for a toss army against ghosts | ||
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IdrA
United States11541 Posts
protoss army is much, much stronger than the terran army and killing every ghost is impractical vs a good terran. obviously it can happen if they make a mistake or you catch them off guard but really it shouldnt. theyre supposed to be able to emp you, and you can take emps on portions of your army and still win easily. even after an emp a handful of collosus' will decimate a bio army, as will 1 temp that manages to avoid an emp. | ||
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MorroW
Sweden3522 Posts
On March 16 2010 23:24 IdrA wrote: its not about entirely avoiding, thats not gonna happen, its about minimizing damage protoss army is much, much stronger than the terran army and killing every ghost is impractical vs a good terran. obviously it can happen if they make a mistake or you catch them off guard but really it shouldnt. theyre supposed to be able to emp you, and you can take emps on portions of your army and still win easily. even after an emp a handful of collosus' will decimate a bio army, as will 1 temp that manages to avoid an emp. well its totally imba right now, the only way i mange to win tosses is by having a 2-2 army vs his 0-0. but good tosses who upgrade also and make many colosus and hts is auto gg they can consume all map with pure dt to stop any push and if u get a raven they can feedback it. and when they get 4 base they can just get this massive army thats impossible to stop i think its quite ridiculous mu atm, all tosses just like sc1 too stupid to realize how to abuse their own race to max ofc | ||
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iounas
409 Posts
On March 16 2010 23:41 MorroW wrote: well its totally imba right now, the only way i mange to win tosses is by having a 2-2 army vs his 0-0. but good tosses who upgrade also and make many colosus and hts is auto gg they can consume all map with pure dt to stop any push and if u get a raven they can feedback it. and when they get 4 base they can just get this massive army thats impossible to stop i think its quite ridiculous mu atm, all tosses just like sc1 too stupid to realize how to abuse their own race to max ofc Why do terrans go bio vs P and not mech+ghost? It would be insane in sc1 vs reaver and ht.. | ||
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MorroW
Sweden3522 Posts
On March 17 2010 00:01 iounas wrote: Why do terrans go bio vs P and not mech+ghost? It would be insane in sc1 vs reaver and ht.. because u dont even have gas for it and even if u did have gas for it it would still suck hard | ||
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Velr
Switzerland10778 Posts
On March 17 2010 00:01 iounas wrote: Why do terrans go bio vs P and not mech+ghost? It would be insane in sc1 vs reaver and ht.. No mines. Just imagine SC1... But you don't have mines and Zealots would charge and (weaker) Dragoons Blink right next to your Tanks :p. And the Gas thing. | ||
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IdrA
United States11541 Posts
On March 16 2010 23:41 MorroW wrote: well its totally imba right now, the only way i mange to win tosses is by having a 2-2 army vs his 0-0. but good tosses who upgrade also and make many colosus and hts is auto gg they can consume all map with pure dt to stop any push and if u get a raven they can feedback it. and when they get 4 base they can just get this massive army thats impossible to stop i think its quite ridiculous mu atm, all tosses just like sc1 too stupid to realize how to abuse their own race to max ofc indeed only thing terran has going for them is the really early barrack unit allins | ||
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Floophead_III
United States1832 Posts
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IdrA
United States11541 Posts
if you mean early banshees thats a horrible build and honestly i dont think theyre worth the cost midgame when you have so much else competing for resources. hellion raids are strong unless you play someone who uses the map control that protoss is guaranteed to have. then theyre not so good. mech never really has any kind of timing threat unless something weird happened early game, meaning that p is free to have their army positioned to stop harass without worrying about a real attack. and if you cant harass your mech army is never really gonna be able to bust them before they have high tech and then you're kinda dead. its not impossible or anything, but you really do have to get lucky or have the protoss player make mistakes to win beyond the early game. | ||
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Floophead_III
United States1832 Posts
I don't see how you have to get lucky to win beyond the early game vs protoss though. I find it so much easier in the lategame when you get a nice critical number of tanks with some grades, and a couple ghosts with emp. | ||
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IdrA
United States11541 Posts
t has to get lucky because p units are just much more cost efficient and protoss has a much easier time taking map control and expanding. | ||
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Mr.Pyro
Denmark959 Posts
On March 07 2010 09:26 Mohdoo wrote: This is totally irrelevant. Its not like Terran should be balanced around the idea that one skill is useless against one race but INSANELY good against another. How useful was Irradiate against Protoss in BW? I don't get your point.. | ||
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Floophead_III
United States1832 Posts
On March 17 2010 01:21 IdrA wrote: thats entirely dependent on the hellion drop doing damage and the protoss then choosing to allin because of it. if the drop gets stuffed or they just absorb it and expand instead of attacking into your defense you're not really gonna be in good shape. t has to get lucky because p units are just much more cost efficient and protoss has a much easier time taking map control and expanding. Usually I kill at least a few probes, and if I'm lucky... all of them =P I will say on some maps I don't like to open with this. Lost temple and Kulas I'd much prefer opening with just a normal siege FE. However I pretty much always get stupid freaking desert oasis every game which demands use of air in some way. I have yet to lose a TvP on there with this build. I should probably start using it vs zerg as well. | ||
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TossFloss
Canada606 Posts
On March 17 2010 01:22 MaD.pYrO wrote: How useful was Irradiate against Protoss in BW? I don't get your point.. IMO that point reveals a major flaw in BW. | ||
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Knee_of_Justice
United States388 Posts
I thought they removed EMP precisely because it was a race-specific spell and they were trying to remove those (think, dark swarm being nasty against terran). I guess they brought EMP back to fix terran's woes which are probably the results of poor design in other areas (immortal shield?) Frankly, when Beta first hit, i was expecting people to be abusing the shit out of EMP against toss, but it took a week or so for them to figure it out, which i guess is understandable. EMP advantages: >No upgrade required >Only 75 energy (like storm, very good for such a powerful ability!) >Hits instantly >Deals 100 damage to shields >Deletes any energy in casting radius >Detects cloaked units for 5 seconds (HEAVILY anti-protoss since any terran cloakers would have 0 energy anyways, and i assume it doesnt reveal burrowed units). >Fairly large radius >Ghost can cloak (with upgrade) >Ghost is small (yes, it matters because its hard to see/snipe, just like high templars) >Ghost has a solid attack and can snipe for 25 energy >Ghost has 100hp (can take a storm with 20 hp left) Disadvantages: >Ghosts are fairly expensive and gas heavy >Ghosts are fairly easy to snipe in the right circumstances and are high-value targets >? | ||
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Mo_oN
Germany82 Posts
Have a nice day everyone | ||
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arb
Noobville17921 Posts
On March 17 2010 02:00 TossFloss wrote: IMO that point reveals a major flaw in BW. i disagree, the science vessel gave you the option of getting irrdiate or emp, considering irrdiate was better against zerg than emp, you werent forced to get emp. but against protoss emp is miles better so you should get it. basically the only way i see this as a "flaw" is if you just want to like combine the two effects together or something. i mean no one was forcing you to go EMP agaisnt zerg and be at a disadvantage | ||
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Landsoul
United States23 Posts
Pick them all up and watch your army walk all over his. Phoenixes will also probably destroy picked up ghosts in a few seconds. Also works great with disabling tanks. | ||
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Stropheum
United States1124 Posts
On March 03 2010 16:39 caution.slip wrote: hmm, whats the range on EMP compared to feedback. Since you can put obs over his army you should be able to get the first shot you can also try putting your HTs in a shuttle so they dont get their energy raped by EMP (not sure if this works in SC2) also 150 food really isn't early game... Feedback has slightly more range than emp. Orb snipes ghosts like it's his job. I've seen him play a bazillion pvt's and i only recall one instance where an emp hit him, and he still won the battle, using just sentries, zealots, and high templar. Feedback ghosts as a priority(look for energy bar), then just storm like hell. (he uses like 6+ templar in an ideal army, demolishes everything) | ||
NonY
8751 Posts
On March 17 2010 01:12 Floophead_III wrote: I never go straight banshees. I play a 1 fact/1 port opener and after my hellion drop I start making tank/banshee and take an expansion with the remaining minerals. Banshees stop an immortal rush cold (though a bunker and a tank do that fine too if you have good placement/repair/good micro). I find it basically impossible to lose early with that build unless it's a bullshit map like blistering sands (backdoor is completely stupid). I almost always win early with that build anyways, but it transitions really nicely into mid and lategame. I don't see how you have to get lucky to win beyond the early game vs protoss though. I find it so much easier in the lategame when you get a nice critical number of tanks with some grades, and a couple ghosts with emp. Observer rush into 2 gate stalkers with blink doesn't own you? | ||
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Floophead_III
United States1832 Posts
On March 17 2010 03:50 Liquid`NonY wrote: Observer rush into 2 gate stalkers with blink doesn't own you? Never actually played vs it for some reason. I get immortal rushed all day though. If you want to try it vs a couple of my openings we can see how that works out. | ||
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cartoon]x
United States606 Posts
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Falling
Canada11367 Posts
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cartoon]x
United States606 Posts
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Majk
Sweden146 Posts
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BC.KoRn
Canada567 Posts
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Whiplash
United States2928 Posts
early push with marine/marauder and 2-3 ghosts The OP is talking about ghost balance real early game, this is going to be between the 7-9 minute mark max. It is hard to get enough units out this early as toss that can counter the first Terran push because protoss tech/production hasn't kicked in yet. This situation suffers from the recent protoss nerfs (gateway timings, zealot shields, and warpgate research time) which were necessary for PvP but its really starting to show how much its hurting here. | ||
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Louder
United States2276 Posts
Players who go 2 gate robo / expand, then dt while taking a high yield, into mass charge-lot + mass temp beat me pretty often. They can make so many goddamned probes and make me waste EMPs to spot DTs while they just add more and more gates and more and more probes, steadily making units a few at a time... by the time I can actually mount an attack i get proper fucked by a milion speed zeals + immortals and templars. | ||
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Stormscion
Serbia27 Posts
- You can do it with stalker zealot sentry imortal combo as well - And if you are on bigger map you can have colosus with range in time. Most important thing is stay on your choke / high ground and spread your units in concave and it is actually very easy to kill emp is not OP atm i think. | ||
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Shambler
United States40 Posts
Also terran's stealth detection is pretty bad until late game, so P gets map control for quite awhile. This matchup is kind of broken though. As T you have to get ghosts. It is not optional at all. So T is kind of forced to do a bionic build against P right now | ||
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jamvng
Canada244 Posts
On March 17 2010 07:21 Shambler wrote: I don't play as P, but DT's fuck terran up. You can use them to snipe ghosts, and when you mix them in an army it is hard to tell that your army is partially composed of DT's until you have already lost. Also terran's stealth detection is pretty bad until late game, so P gets map control for quite awhile. This matchup is kind of broken though. As T you have to get ghosts. It is not optional at all. So T is kind of forced to do a bionic build against P right now Getting ghosts doesn't mean you have to go bio...In fact it complements mech really well. The counter for mech (siege tanks) for protoss is the Immortal. With EMP, you can take out all of the Immortals shields (they have 100 Shields). Tanks can then shred Immortals if they don't have their shields. It's actually pretty strong. Zealots get owned by hellions. | ||
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Floophead_III
United States1832 Posts
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xnub
Canada610 Posts
Colo Deal insane dmg to the T army till the vikings come. Problem is most Toss keep spaming them ... Vikings switch to HT and 1 shot all the rines : P Toss better early game Terran better mid Toss better later /shrug way it seems right now | ||
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borg286
United States8 Posts
This is CowGoMoo, a developer at blizzard, as he uses EMP to turn the tides. Afterwards there is a most intriguing conversation about his feelings of its overpoweredness and that it needs a nerf. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZltCnantkcE&feature=PlayList&p=5C66D4A2A6E9ABB8&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=36 | ||
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starcraft911
Korea (South)1263 Posts
I would love to see a Terran that can get enough vikings that can kill the phoneix's and get to the collossus before their whole army melts. So far the only success I've had vs any toss is going banshees... this a joke? You say you have success with banshees but your vikings would be melted? I smell copper. If your opponent is making both colossus AND pheonix, they aren't going to be able to keep up with your gas on equal bases. If he's not making immortals then I don't even really need a ghost, but I can still afford the academy because the colo upgrade is 200 gas so i'm still pretty much on point if i chose to get emp and vikings. I'm confused as to how you think the pheonix' would melt anything when you're going to have 2 extra vikings for every 1 colo they made. | ||
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Quanticfograw
United States2053 Posts
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xnub
Canada610 Posts
On March 17 2010 10:21 borg286 wrote: I apologize if this video has been posted, but I saw that you were wanting a video of EMP. This is CowGoMoo, a developer at blizzard, as he uses EMP to turn the tides. Afterwards there is a most intriguing conversation about his feelings of its overpoweredness and that it needs a nerf. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZltCnantkcE&feature=PlayList&p=5C66D4A2A6E9ABB8&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=36 All he says is its easyer to use does not say emp is overpowered or not and this was really early patch | ||
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borg286
United States8 Posts
On March 17 2010 12:31 xnub wrote: All he says is its easyer to use does not say emp is overpowered or not and this was really early patch My bad. I guess I'm more behind in what's current and what's not. Thank you for the clarification, and confirmation that EMP will probably continue to be as powerful as it currently is. | ||
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TossFloss
Canada606 Posts
On March 17 2010 02:31 arb wrote: i disagree, the science vessel gave you the option of getting irrdiate or emp, considering irrdiate was better against zerg than emp, you werent forced to get emp. but against protoss emp is miles better so you should get it. basically the only way i see this as a "flaw" is if you just want to like combine the two effects together or something. i mean no one was forcing you to go EMP agaisnt zerg and be at a disadvantage No it's just bad game design. Blizzard could balance matchups by giving each race two sets of units for each opposing race. That's unimaginative and stupid. | ||
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splcer
United States166 Posts
On March 03 2010 16:52 asdfTT123 wrote: Just wait till EMPs get nerfed. In the meantime, just go 4 gate proxy warp. Works everytime. these people make me lmao just cheese and wait till something that is necassary get nerfed omg i hope ur kidding i really do | ||
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GG.MaRs
Singapore6 Posts
Viking is good against colosus but the bio army dies much faster. Plus stalkers can kill vikings fast too. | ||
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fearus
China2164 Posts
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jamvng
Canada244 Posts
But is Colossus not overpowered? Immortal? Psi Storm? I thought that BW had plenty of overpowered units, but overpowered units were balanced by other overpowered units. Irridiate was strong, but so was Dark Swarm... Can't the same be true for Starcraft 2? Isn't the overpoweredness of some spells and units what made the game fun to watch? | ||
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RedTerror
New Zealand742 Posts
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lFrost
United States295 Posts
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Radison
Poland44 Posts
I mean - protoss had their feedback in SC1. And yeah, it was used from time to time, mainly for sniping defilers, but... 1) Dark Archons were faster then HT's are now, I think. 2) DA had much more total hit points (with shields) than HT's so they could be in front of an army or strictly in combat 3) Defilers were EASY to distinguish from all other zerg units not as ghosts in Terran SC2 army (btw: don't you think that marines, marauders, ghosts looks to similar to each other? Just from the viewer point of view even) 4) Defilers were bigger than ghosts (now and in SC1) What's more: ghosts are mixed in terran army, consisting of other infantry. Now try to imagine there is a battle just starting, protoss and terran units are getting closer to each other and lets say your HT's are in good position for once (not lagging behind as it was in SC1, because otherwise they will be late to feedback ghosts after the latter have already casted their EMP). So you have them into position, you have an energy and you do... Feedback? Would you really take this risk? It's enough if you leave one ghost alive to get at least half of your army get EMPed (and without storms). And you never know how many of them are there. I would say in these situations feedback would not be really used just because it would be better to use your apm and time to cast a storm when you have the opportunity (that means: BEFORE EMP). The only option for me is to snipe these ghosts with HT's before the battle. But, as Idra pointed out a good Terran player wouldn't leave his ghosts aside the rest of his army. That's why getting close with HT's would be extremely challenging if not impossible. Look how hard was to irradiate defilers with FLYING science vessels. | ||
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Floophead_III
United States1832 Posts
On March 17 2010 16:05 GG.MaRs wrote: EMPs can take down shields but the whole army will melt by 2-4 col in 5 seconds. Viking is good against colosus but the bio army dies much faster. Plus stalkers can kill vikings fast too. This. Once you have 3-4 colossi out it's impossible to win with bio. I don't care about how godly your micro is, you can't do it. | ||
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LuDwig-
Italy1143 Posts
On March 03 2010 18:57 Plexa wrote: I think a replay would be very useful in this situation. i don't think so. the op put a very situational condition...why you need replay? ..emp is a big issue for all p, not only for him | ||
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Sohma
France10 Posts
Feedback on ghost, why not?The problem is that the ghost doesn't stand much in an MMM army xD (hard to spot them right away, unlike templars who are obvious).Of course u get obs on his army to do so and it's unusual for the ran to go raven, but still.... And i'm not too sure of the feedback range compared to the emp range... | ||
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lol_WomensRights
52 Posts
cant possibly imagine how blizzard is going to buff mech to make it viable vs toss (no mines, immortals, no anti air...) and they way its now with bio when slow minded Tosses just learned to actualy abuse their race is unplayable. | ||
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Klive5ive
United Kingdom6056 Posts
The only way EMP is imbalanced is if it makes PvT impossible for Protoss. This is actually the opposite of truth. Maybe you meant EMP is boring and the whole matchup revolves around it? That's barely the case either. You still need a nice unit mix to go with your ghosts who are gas heavy and make up only a small portion of the army. It's strong yes; just like storm is strong in BW. In BW Protoss would always include storm in their army against Zerg and it could win the game single handedly. That doesn't mean it's overpowered. All it does is introduce some nice micro and a lot excitement into the match up. AAAAAAHHH EEEMMMPPPP!!! You know it's gonna happen. | ||
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Squallcloud
France466 Posts
http://www.youtube.com/watch#!v=jSYAIkrwTJY&feature=related You can see that a bio force with ghost is destroyed by storm. Also the protoss player protected his templar with war prism or just kept them in the back. Both player were pretty evenly matched. So if you ask me EMP isn't overpowered at all. | ||
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willeesmalls
United States477 Posts
On March 17 2010 20:44 Squallcloud wrote: Just saw a PvT on youtube Jump/Predy vs FirstandLast. http://www.youtube.com/watch#!v=jSYAIkrwTJY&feature=related You can see that a bio force with ghost is destroyed by storm. Also the protoss player protected his templar with war prism or just kept them in the back. Both player were pretty evenly matched. So if you ask me EMP isn't overpowered at all. I just saw that replay too. Let's keep in mind that the terran (Jump) was a much faster player than FirstandLast. While both are terrific players, I saw terran snipe emp on HT's prior to fights while protoss never snipe feedbacked any ghosts. I think if the players were evenly matched, there would be more ghost kills prior to starting fights. With that aside, I think the match also shows how ridiculous EMP is lategame. Even if you're as good as this toss player, if you mess up once you're almost guaranteed to lose. he had 4 HT's emp'd by a ghost (the terran scanned and found the HT's) and lost his richmineral expo despite having a greater resource army. Terran doesn't need EMP to be this strong, since they CAN fight with infantry army, even vs collosus due to how strong infantry is with stim marauders. EMP is an instant cast, AOE, 75 energy spell that completely negates all spellcasters. The only reason EMP is not useful against zerg is because zerg has no powerful spellcasters. Even if you separated your casters, terran can still drain them all because the spell only costs 75. Solution: if the EMP is going to be AOE and instant cast, make it drain energy of only the targetted unit. You can still negate storm, it would just require more work on the terran's part. 2 full mana ghosts can make 4 full mana HT's useless. It wouldn't just be 2 well placed emp's (extremely easy to do) and protoss army is screwed. | ||
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Sasajoe
Bulgaria46 Posts
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kickinhead
Switzerland2069 Posts
Stuff like Collossi that rip apart Bio doesn't require any skill and even with extremely well micro, it's hard to win against them. Also, rushing with Warpgates isn't very skilled either. I just wanna say that don't balling up your Units so that 90% of your Army gets hit by one EMP shouldn't be that hard to do. I mean: Send an Observer in front of your Units, don't attack the Terran through small chokes and just snipe the Ghost in advance. ppl just tend to see the effect of a well-placed and poorly avoided EMP but forget that you need a Tech-lab (costs 50/50), a Ghost-Academy (costs 150/50) for one Ghost (that costs 100/200) and then the ghost needs enough energy and you have to place the EMP right and after the EMP is fired, the Ghost is pretty much useless for the amount of ressources you had to spend on him. Also, if Toss just retreats after the EMP is fired, the shields regenerate ridiculously fast and the Spellcasters... well: I don't see many Spellcasters being used against T and jsut don't ball them so hard. Spellcaster are supposed to be strong but fragile; thats why you had to snipe Templars with Mutas, EMP Arbiters/Temlpars or Irradiate Defilers before the big fight or "hide" casters in Shuttles and just drop them directly before casting etc. Stuff like that can be dealt with easily just by playing better, but try to win with Bio against Collos or against a P that reinforces stuff into your base as fast as if you were in HIS base. -.-° | ||
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brocoli
Brazil264 Posts
Sure, you could build a colossus with that robo facility instead of a prism, but the prism increases the effectiveness of colossi (their attack is not cancelled when you pick up a colossus after he starts it), and later it helps the HTs and Immortals. Not to mention it can be used to reinforce your troops in place, making it less necessary to retreat. | ||
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kickinhead
Switzerland2069 Posts
On March 18 2010 00:52 brocoli wrote: The problem is that I don't see P using warp prisms nearly enough. Sure, you could build a colossus with that robo facility instead of a prism, but the prism increases the effectiveness of colossi (their attack is not cancelled when you pick up a colossus after he starts it), and later it helps the HTs and Immortals. Not to mention it can be used to reinforce your troops in place, making it less necessary to retreat. prism-micro? - that'd be cool! | ||
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NonY
8751 Posts
On March 17 2010 04:38 Floophead_III wrote: Never actually played vs it for some reason. I get immortal rushed all day though. If you want to try it vs a couple of my openings we can see how that works out. Actually I have tried it a bit already and feel that it does quite well. But my opponents have not had a chance to adapt to it yet so I am not sure if adaptation is possible. It might be that fast obs is simply a good counter so long as the protoss knows how to follow up | ||
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willeesmalls
United States477 Posts
On March 18 2010 00:52 brocoli wrote: The problem is that I don't see P using warp prisms nearly enough. Sure, you could build a colossus with that robo facility instead of a prism, but the prism increases the effectiveness of colossi (their attack is not cancelled when you pick up a colossus after he starts it), and later it helps the HTs and Immortals. Not to mention it can be used to reinforce your troops in place, making it less necessary to retreat. You can pick up colossi with warp prism? Can you pick up units of massive type? that's insane. Never even tried. | ||
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chocoed
United States398 Posts
On March 18 2010 09:55 willeesmalls wrote: You can pick up colossi with warp prism? Can you pick up units of massive type? that's insane. Never even tried. Yeah. Only one though but still pretty cool. Even the Medivac can pickup Thors. Amazes me how such a small ship can carry a gigantic hunk of metal. | ||
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Floophead_III
United States1832 Posts
On March 18 2010 02:52 Liquid`NonY wrote: Actually I have tried it a bit already and feel that it does quite well. But my opponents have not had a chance to adapt to it yet so I am not sure if adaptation is possible. It might be that fast obs is simply a good counter so long as the protoss knows how to follow up I'm a fan of using marines to snipe that first obs with a scan (or turrets if you're hanging in sight range but out of range.) But I don't believe that's reliable at all. I often don't even notice an obs shimmering around in my base. The thing is... stalkers vs marines/tanks is pretty much like dragoons vs marines/tanks. The difference is you can just blink and snipe tanks, but tanks/marines are more cost effective vs you. I donno how it'd work out but I'd definitely want to investigate it further. I actually noticed a weakness in my openings vs a midgame immortal/sentry/stalker/zealot push that's really heavy on the immortals. It comes just as my econ is kicking in and I think I can survive it with good placement and fast ghosts, but I'm not 100% sure how it'll work out. That's something I'd want to investigate more too. | ||
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morimacil
France921 Posts
A ghost with EMP can remove the shields from an army, effectively bringing the army to half life. A high templar, can storm, effectively killing or bringing a bio army to 10% life. Both are really powerful, but it is hard to say that one is OP, and the other is just fine. About spotting ghosts: Turning on the lifebars make them much easier to spot, if you dont want to turn them on all the time, turn them on using alt. The infantry units with energy are the ghosts  | ||
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Qikz
United Kingdom12022 Posts
Does anyone know the exact range of the Ghosts EMP and the Vessel? I'm sure the ghost has less range and the ghost is alot more squishy than the vessel ever was. I'm sure if you just keep a close eye on your templar like the terran has to with his ghosts you'll be fine, if you can get a storm off on top of where the ghosts are, that's pretty much a dead ghost and feedback is quite nice for taking them down too. Maybe it just leads to the added flanking effect, if you can hide your templar around the side or to the back, the terran without scouting won't be able to effectively use his ghosts. Just seperate your army up a bit and I think it should be fine. | ||
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Angra
United States2652 Posts
Maybe if they had it slowly drain the shields at the same rate as psi storm drains health? Idk. On March 20 2010 08:15 Qikz wrote: Hm, After playing the past few days, I can't see how EMP would be any different to how it used to be. It's the exact same situation with losing shields but you're only losing it to a man rather than a vessel. Does anyone know the exact range of the Ghosts EMP and the Vessel? I'm sure the ghost has less range and the ghost is alot more squishy than the vessel ever was. I'm sure if you just keep a close eye on your templar like the terran has to with his ghosts you'll be fine, if you can get a storm off on top of where the ghosts are, that's pretty much a dead ghost and feedback is quite nice for taking them down too. Maybe it just leads to the added flanking effect, if you can hide your templar around the side or to the back, the terran without scouting won't be able to effectively use his ghosts. Just seperate your army up a bit and I think it should be fine. EMP is way lower on the tech tree, the unit is cheaper, and it has a lower energy cost to cast in SC2. | ||
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Qikz
United Kingdom12022 Posts
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checo
Mexico1364 Posts
On March 17 2010 23:04 Sasajoe wrote: willeesmalls is completely right either emp should be made avoidable, destroys only one casters energy or feedback should be buffed as an aoe or even both + Huter-seeker missiles should be rodone completely LOL... buff feed back??? it already can kill a ghost on one shot thats 100/200 +build time man come on buff that???? if something make feed back just take 50 energy-75 top so it doesn't cost 300resourses to the T.... | ||
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morimacil
France921 Posts
Here is what I would do to change the situation a bit around: Nerf EMP (more energy, later tech, effect over time, ...) Buff Mech units (making helions more useful past the first few minutes, reducing tank gas cost, making thors good, getting decent AA in mech, ...) Nerf immortal by giving them an upgrade (so they dont destroy mech builds with going immortals right away) - Immortals would be same as now after upgrade, upgrade could be so you get the shield that stops all dmg past 10, or dmg upgrade to armored, or speed upgrade, or range, ... Tah-dah! EMP gets nerfed, but its ok, because terran can do something else than going bio, and so doesnt get destroyed as much by storm, and so doesnt have to rely on emp so much. | ||
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Chen
United States6344 Posts
On March 20 2010 08:15 Qikz wrote: Hm, After playing the past few days, I can't see how EMP would be any different to how it used to be. It's the exact same situation with losing shields but you're only losing it to a man rather than a vessel. Does anyone know the exact range of the Ghosts EMP and the Vessel? I'm sure the ghost has less range and the ghost is alot more squishy than the vessel ever was. I'm sure if you just keep a close eye on your templar like the terran has to with his ghosts you'll be fine, if you can get a storm off on top of where the ghosts are, that's pretty much a dead ghost and feedback is quite nice for taking them down too. Maybe it just leads to the added flanking effect, if you can hide your templar around the side or to the back, the terran without scouting won't be able to effectively use his ghosts. Just seperate your army up a bit and I think it should be fine. EMP is now instant, no delay between cast and effect, meaning it is impossible to dodge. ghosts have 100 hp, storm does 80 damage. doesnt matter if you storm then they'll still be able to emp a big chunk of your army does anyone know if EMP has a cooldown like storm, or if you can just insta-cast 2 EMP's with 1 ghost? | ||
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morimacil
France921 Posts
And if you just stormed a bio army, it doesnt really matter if he EMPs you right after. | ||
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