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On May 23 2016 16:50 Pasketi wrote:First time at TLMC. Great finalist maps overall. I didn't get much feedback and would love to get some. Frostwing: + Show Spoiler +Thanks in advance
Reminds me a bit of Newkirk Precinct (District? City?), pretty fond of that one. Which categories did you submit this for?
Edit: First time for me submitting to TLMC as well, best of luck in the next one!
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On May 23 2016 16:47 blunderfulguy wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2016 15:34 monk wrote:On May 23 2016 15:04 blunderfulguy wrote:On May 21 2016 03:21 monk wrote:
We simply cannot communicate with every mapmaker on the progress of his maps... If you could avoid referring to everyone here as if they are all male, that would be pretty cool. Thanks. Oh come on. No one ever writes that because he's/her or she/they're sexist. It's just a confusing grammar issue that doesn't have a 100% correct answer. If you're not going to actually talk about maps in here, my feedback for you is to go away. Firstly, I didn't say nor mean to imply that you are sexist and I am aiming to be more inclusive of all sexes with that tiny post. Secondly, saying "they" instead of only "he" or only "she" isn't a "confusing grammar issue" whatsoever. Period. You just tried to make it complicated in an incredibly rude way. I'm not going to post in another forum asking you there to be less naive, that would most likely never get your attention and be a waste of everyone's time. You're making it an issue when you didn't need to. I tried to be nice and short about it, but again: Not everyone on TL is a male. It would be really nice if you, an admin, could please respect that better. Relax person. We're all friends here.
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United States8477 Posts
On May 23 2016 11:57 NinjaDuckBob wrote:Not salty at all about none of mine getting picked, really like the ones that did get picked. Would appreciate feedback and info about what phase mine were kicked out, though. :-) Pinwheel Pasture + Show Spoiler +Limited bases just don't work in LotV? Would a middle base help? Attack paths too stale? Xel'Naga Vespene Matrix + Show Spoiler +Just not good enough? Problems with the middle? Something else? Violet Honor + Show Spoiler +Too far with "new"? Too purple/too bright? Again, all feedback appreciated in advance! :-)
Pinwheel Pasture: Again, like I mentioned before, two entrances to the natural will generally cause balance issues and you should only do it if you have a really good reason. I can't recall a single map in the last 2 years that had two entrances to the natural with the exception of Lerilak Crest, which was patched. Besides that, the map is extremely one note with with exactly only two ways to walk from one side of the map to the other. The middle space will seldom be used.
Xel'Naga Vespene Matrix: To some extent, same thing with the natural. There's a lot of surface area to cover here on two bases. There's also a lot of surface area to cover on three bases as a Protoss in TvP. The left half of the map seems to be underutilized and won't see much action. When you're making a mirrored map like Habitation Station/Newkirk Precinct, a common mistake is not utilizing the entire map and many maps in this contest fell into that trap, the biggest offender being Namaste actually. In addition, the middle has too many bases that are too central and too hard to take. One or two central bases are great for creating tension (especially in the LotV meta where it goes split map more often), but too many, again, causes underutilized features.
Violet Honor: Mark your starting locations better. We had to read the description to figure out the starting locations. Interesting ideas, but again there are tons of balance concerns. Two entrances to the main is a problem, even more entrances when you take a natural causes even more problems. The central concept of having close mains is cool, it's a concept that already invites balance issues in the early/mid-game, so you don't need to add even more experimental concepts to the map like multiple entrances to your first two bases (which I'm not sure you were aware are experimental based on your other submitted maps). Because of the many entrances to the main/natural, this central concept won't be as seen as often as you'd like.
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United States8477 Posts
On May 23 2016 16:50 Pasketi wrote:First time at TLMC. Great finalist maps overall. I didn't get much feedback on my map and would love to get some. Frostwing: + Show Spoiler +Thanks in advance
I actually liked this one way more than the other judges did. Someone else should respond to this. However, one major flaw I saw is that the top right and bottom right both have a chunk of three bases that are two easy to defend by holding one position.
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Well I'm no judge but there's something I don't love about Frostwing. There's close to no choice when thinking what third to take, unless something went terribly wrong in the early game and you really don't want to expand towards your opponent (and even then maybe still) the gold should always be the right choice.
The back of the gold third is defended by your main high ground, has only 2 ramps leading to it (one near your nat) and the one ramp that is risky has destructible rocks that help defend it. The blue third is about the same walking distance from the main but further away by air. The back is open space and really close to the nat minerals too (air units love harrassing those). It has a total of three wide ramps leading to it, so it's much harder to defend against drops and in general imo.
So in short, all this makes me think that the gold third should be blue. Other than that it looks like an ok macro map with a central part that is not usual at all 
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despite my displeasure about the outcome of this TLMC I'd like to hear your reasons why my map was sorted out.
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Thanks a lot for the feedback, monk!
I do have a question about the 2-entrance issue. I read in a previous post that a concern you had before was that it's more difficult to wall two entrances. Do rocks/neutral depots have any effect on this? (examples: Pinwheel Pasture naturals can be walled with 4 buildings, as can the Xel'Naga Vespene Matrix naturals and the left-most naturals on Violet Honor). Is the issue mainly also about making another Pylon as Protoss or is there also something else?
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United States8477 Posts
On May 23 2016 20:02 IIEclipseII wrote:despite my displeasure about the outcome of this TLMC I'd like to hear your reasons why my map was sorted out.
- The first three bases represent a fairly boring layout. There's not really many choices you can make in the early game.
- The natural is a bit out of proportion, a bit large. There's also a large space above the bottom natural and below the top natural. This leads me to believe you could be using that space better.
- The collapsible rocks in the middle don't seem to have a purpose. The entire design of the middle blockers is actually pretty confusing to me.
- The fourth is extremely difficult to take. For strategies like ling/bling, you NEED to be able to take a fourth at 5 mins, which is impossible on this map.
- This map was submitted into the Gold category, but I don't really see a creative use of Golds here. As a general rule of thumb, Gold bases only really make a big impact if they're one of the first three possible bases you could take. Any later on and the impact is greatly diminished. As one of the criteria for this category was use of Golds, this map falls short there.
- The top right two bases and the bottom left two bases are extremely out of the way and not easily accessible at all.
- The middle Golds also seem hard to take, which makes in total six questionable bases on the map.
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On May 22 2016 23:31 NewSunshine wrote:If you're still doing this, might I ask what the problems were with Lightning Eater: + Show Spoiler +I assume - pretty safely I think - that there's a balance issue that got it cut, but I would like to know exactly, what was the nail in its coffin, so to speak.
Hello!
This map had really good intentions, so like monk said, it was really close to the finish to actually make it through.
While possible balance issues were one thing, like for example we discussed the potential of sieging behind 3rd base and gold base, and perhaps terran expanding aggressively towards the gold base versus zerg. I specifically remember a discussion about protoss and terran exploiting the narrow path around the rear gold bases for forcefields and aggressive pushes plus terran doing aggressive expands there as well. This surely had an impact on our final voting for this map. Another problem was that the map seemed to not quite fit into one of the 4 categories. For the main category, new, we see the unique features based around utilizing aggressive gold bases while keeping the first 3 bases relatively secure, while also having a short rush distance. There was a very narrow internal disagreement to what extent these features were actually new, and as a result it made the cut.
For the other categories we felt the map was not strong enough to make a replacement there, but it did go quite close for the gold category as well.
In the end, we felt that the map had too many features at once like 4 player map with close positions and many gold bases with potentially imbalanced backdoors. This overall design left us with a sense of unpredictability when it came to how this map was going to play out. For us to make a potentially imbalanced map go through it would require strikingly interesting features and very unique design. With that being said, it was a thought out map and on a different day it may have gone through. 
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On May 23 2016 16:47 blunderfulguy wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2016 15:34 monk wrote:On May 23 2016 15:04 blunderfulguy wrote:On May 21 2016 03:21 monk wrote:
We simply cannot communicate with every mapmaker on the progress of his maps... If you could avoid referring to everyone here as if they are all male, that would be pretty cool. Thanks. Oh come on. No one ever writes that because he's/her or she/they're sexist. It's just a confusing grammar issue that doesn't have a 100% correct answer. If you're not going to actually talk about maps in here, my feedback for you is to go away. Firstly, I didn't say nor mean to imply that you are sexist and I am aiming to be more inclusive of all sexes with that tiny post. Secondly, saying "they" instead of only "he" or only "she" isn't a "confusing grammar issue" whatsoever. Period. You just tried to make it complicated in an incredibly rude way. I'm not going to post in another forum asking you there to be less naive, that would most likely never get your attention and be a waste of everyone's time. You're making it an issue when you didn't need to. I tried to be nice and short about it, but again: Not everyone on TL is a male. It would be really nice if you, an admin, could please respect that better.
Really? Do you have proof?
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+ Show Spoiler +On May 23 2016 22:50 NinjaDuckBob wrote:
Thanks a lot for the feedback, monk!
I do have a question about the 2-entrance issue. I read in a previous post that a concern you had before was that it's more difficult to wall two entrances. Do rocks/neutral depots have any effect on this? (examples: Pinwheel Pasture naturals can be walled with 4 buildings, as can the Xel'Naga Vespene Matrix naturals and the left-most naturals on Violet Honor). Is the issue mainly also about making another Pylon as Protoss or is there also something else?
I really didn't mean for this question to sound condescending, I'm not trying to say that you're wrong or anything, I just want to better understand the issue so I don't make the mistake in future maps. Sorry if I made you think I was arguing, monk.
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On May 24 2016 08:59 Uvantak wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2016 16:47 blunderfulguy wrote:On May 23 2016 15:34 monk wrote:On May 23 2016 15:04 blunderfulguy wrote:On May 21 2016 03:21 monk wrote:
We simply cannot communicate with every mapmaker on the progress of his maps... If you could avoid referring to everyone here as if they are all male, that would be pretty cool. Thanks. Oh come on. No one ever writes that because he's/her or she/they're sexist. It's just a confusing grammar issue that doesn't have a 100% correct answer. If you're not going to actually talk about maps in here, my feedback for you is to go away. Firstly, I didn't say nor mean to imply that you are sexist and I am aiming to be more inclusive of all sexes with that tiny post. Secondly, saying "they" instead of only "he" or only "she" isn't a "confusing grammar issue" whatsoever. Period. You just tried to make it complicated in an incredibly rude way. I'm not going to post in another forum asking you there to be less naive, that would most likely never get your attention and be a waste of everyone's time. You're making it an issue when you didn't need to. I tried to be nice and short about it, but again: Not everyone on TL is a male. It would be really nice if you, an admin, could please respect that better. Really? Do you have proof?
I know this might seem like a crazy thing to try wrapping your brain around Uvantak, but as a matter of fact not every person on the internet is a guy. It's probably confusing and you have lots of questions, but I'm sure if you ask about this crazy phenomenon in another thread or do some researching of your own you will get some answers.
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On May 24 2016 08:59 Uvantak wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2016 16:47 blunderfulguy wrote:On May 23 2016 15:34 monk wrote:On May 23 2016 15:04 blunderfulguy wrote:On May 21 2016 03:21 monk wrote:
We simply cannot communicate with every mapmaker on the progress of his maps... If you could avoid referring to everyone here as if they are all male, that would be pretty cool. Thanks. Oh come on. No one ever writes that because he's/her or she/they're sexist. It's just a confusing grammar issue that doesn't have a 100% correct answer. If you're not going to actually talk about maps in here, my feedback for you is to go away. Firstly, I didn't say nor mean to imply that you are sexist and I am aiming to be more inclusive of all sexes with that tiny post. Secondly, saying "they" instead of only "he" or only "she" isn't a "confusing grammar issue" whatsoever. Period. You just tried to make it complicated in an incredibly rude way. I'm not going to post in another forum asking you there to be less naive, that would most likely never get your attention and be a waste of everyone's time. You're making it an issue when you didn't need to. I tried to be nice and short about it, but again: Not everyone on TL is a male. It would be really nice if you, an admin, could please respect that better. Really? Do you have proof?
Wow so much good intentions.. wow so much edgy..
sorry about team liquid general machismo, that little kid is in need of a hug.. he is like that to anyone, don't take it personally.. he has no idea what a girl is.
Also .. he should be warned about his demeanor but..
On May 23 2016 17:25 Plexa wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2016 16:47 blunderfulguy wrote:On May 23 2016 15:34 monk wrote:On May 23 2016 15:04 blunderfulguy wrote:On May 21 2016 03:21 monk wrote:
We simply cannot communicate with every mapmaker on the progress of his maps... If you could avoid referring to everyone here as if they are all male, that would be pretty cool. Thanks. Oh come on. No one ever writes that because he's/her or she/they're sexist. It's just a confusing grammar issue that doesn't have a 100% correct answer. If you're not going to actually talk about maps in here, my feedback for you is to go away. Firstly, I didn't say nor mean to imply that you are sexist and I am aiming to be more inclusive of all sexes with that tiny post. Secondly, saying "they" instead of only "he" or only "she" isn't a "confusing grammar issue" whatsoever. Period. You just tried to make it complicated in an incredibly rude way. I'm not going to post in another forum asking you there to be less naive, that would most likely never get your attention and be a waste of everyone's time. You're making it an issue when you didn't need to. I tried to be nice and short about it, but again: Not everyone on TL is a male. It would be really nice if you, an admin, could please respect that better. Relax person. We're all friends here.
.. this is the moderator's stance.. perfectly pc if you ask me.. not!
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Italy12248 Posts
Please stop derailing the thread; i will action any post past this that keeps doing it. If you have any problems take it to website feedback.
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On May 24 2016 01:19 monk wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2016 20:02 IIEclipseII wrote:despite my displeasure about the outcome of this TLMC I'd like to hear your reasons why my map was sorted out. - The first three bases represent a fairly boring layout. There's not really many choices you can make in the early game.
You could take the Gold base behind the rocks.
And If you would consider it a macro map, which was the secondary category, and you apperantly had no problems to put maps into other categories, than its pretty much prefined where to expand the first 2 times.
On May 24 2016 01:19 monk wrote:- The natural is a bit out of proportion, a bit large. There's also a large space above the bottom natural and below the top natural. This leads me to believe you could be using that space better.
Ok thats true, But thats something which could be changed in an iterating process, which imo should be no reason to sort out a map.
What do you mean with the space above and below the natural?
On May 24 2016 01:19 monk wrote:- The collapsible rocks in the middle don't seem to have a purpose. The entire design of the middle blockers is actually pretty confusing to me.
ehm, if you take both Xel Naga Watchtowers, the straight middle path is the only one, not controlled. If you want to Play a defensive style, you can destroy them, and you are pretty much save against ground attacks.
On May 24 2016 01:19 monk wrote:- The fourth is extremely difficult to take. For strategies like ling/bling, you NEED to be able to take a fourth at 5 mins, which is impossible on this map.
Ok this seems to be a real concern. I already thought about to change the alignment of the middle goldbase by 180degree, make it a bluebase and move away from the middle, so it becomes a safe 4th base.
On May 24 2016 01:19 monk wrote:- This map was submitted into the Gold category, but I don't really see a creative use of Golds here. As a general rule of thumb, Gold bases only really make a big impact if they're one of the first three possible bases you could take. Any later on and the impact is greatly diminished. As one of the criteria for this category was use of Golds, this map falls short there.
Its possible to take the close goldbase as a third, you only have to remove the rocks which is possible in time. But I could move this Goldbase closer to the natural.
On May 24 2016 01:19 monk wrote:
[list][*]The top right two bases and the bottom left two bases are extremely out of the way and not easily accessible at all.
Why are they not easy accesible? The distance difference between the main bases to those bases is neglectable. And on which maps are the last 2 bases easy accessible? Maybe you mean the last base which is only accesible by the base infront, becouse there is only a ramp which leads to this base?
After watching the first games of the Map Test Tournament I need to mention that I watched about 200 custom games on my map of mostly High Masters and Grandmaster players and therefore continuely improved the map. There are no errors, like wrong mineral placement or pathings or any other bugs like on most maps which are Finalists, which leads me to the assumption that those maps haven't even be tested in one custom game. I still think that this map should be in the Finalists
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Hey Would it be possible to get some extra feedback on my map?
I already know the map bounds at the bottom are too large, I have already shortened it but anything else would be greatly appreciated.
I suspect the bases are a little too spaced out.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/6iJYrH7.jpg)
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United States8477 Posts
On May 24 2016 11:42 NinjaDuckBob wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On May 23 2016 22:50 NinjaDuckBob wrote:
Thanks a lot for the feedback, monk!
I do have a question about the 2-entrance issue. I read in a previous post that a concern you had before was that it's more difficult to wall two entrances. Do rocks/neutral depots have any effect on this? (examples: Pinwheel Pasture naturals can be walled with 4 buildings, as can the Xel'Naga Vespene Matrix naturals and the left-most naturals on Violet Honor). Is the issue mainly also about making another Pylon as Protoss or is there also something else? I really didn't mean for this question to sound condescending, I'm not trying to say that you're wrong or anything, I just want to better understand the issue so I don't make the mistake in future maps. Sorry if I made you think I was arguing, monk.
Don't worry, I didn't take your post in a condescending way at all.
There's a few ways that two entrances makes you vulnerable to various all-ins. First, if you need four buildings to wall in, that means you need to expose two separate pylons as part of the wall, which leaves you very vulnerable to Zerg especially. Like I said before, Protoss gets stuck on 2 pylons for around a minute, so that's a minute where you can't really hide tech and don't have backup pylons to overcharge.
Terran also has issues with all-ins when they don't exactly know where to put a bunker. Some all-ins (mostly from Zerg and Protoss) require one or multiple bunkers at the choke to defend. If you have two entrances that are too far away from each other, this makes defending so much harder. This mostly applies to Pinwheel Pasture and Violet Honor.
For example, a previous version of Apotheosis had similar concerns with two entrances to the natural where each entrance could be walled with 1 pylon + 1 gateway. However, these balance concerns were raised and the map was changed to what you see today.
I'll be trying to write a short guide soon on how to avoid these balance concern pitfalls for mappers in the future.
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United States8477 Posts
On May 25 2016 08:32 Vilham wrote:Hey Would it be possible to get some extra feedback on my map? I already know the map bounds at the bottom are too large, I have already shortened it but anything else would be greatly appreciated. I suspect the bases are a little too spaced out.
![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/Ctx6gEr.jpg)
- The areas in black I circled are very awkward and don't belong in a polished map.
- There's too much open area in the space between the natural and third and in general the distance is too high between thee two bases.
- The two red circles indicate a pair of free bases you can get if you just hold one position. Basically, defending one of these bases means that you defend both bases.
- There's no choices the player can make in terms of which expansion he wants to take.
- There's realistically only one path you can use to attack your opponent. Taking a detour through the top path is too unwieldy.
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United States8477 Posts
You could take the Gold base behind the rocks.
And If you would consider it a macro map, which was the secondary category, and you apperantly had no problems to put maps into other categories, than its pretty much prefined where to expand the first 2 times.
It's not really reasonable to expect players to take the Gold base behind the rocks as a third base.
We defined a macro map as "a map where it's very straight forward to play and take expansions on". Your map doesn't fit that description because it's so hard to take a fourth.
Ok thats true, But thats something which could be changed in an iterating process, which imo should be no reason to sort out a map.
What do you mean with the space above and below the natural?
We have to judge the map as is; it's unreasonable to expect us to judge maps based on some future possible version after it goes through the iteration process. I'm talking about the chasm there.
Its possible to take the close goldbase as a third, you only have to remove the rocks which is possible in time. But I could move this Goldbase closer to the natural.
Removing the rocks takes an extraordinary amount of firepower, which doesn't really exist in any popular build from any race currently. Besides that, the base is really far away and leaves you exposed to attacks on two fronts instead of one. These three things combined makes the Gold base completely not worth it imo.
Why are they not easy accesible? The distance difference between the main bases to those bases is neglectable. And on which maps are the last 2 bases easy accessible? Maybe you mean the last base which is only accesible by the base infront, becouse there is only a ramp which leads to this base?
Sorry, I worded this part poorly. I mean that those bases are boring, more like an afterthought after you designed the rest of the map. They seem like they only exist because you wanted to add four more bases to your map and don't really add at all to the quality of the map. The biggest issue I have with those bases is that you can defend three of your expansions in the late game by defending a single choke.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/0TfCsv3.png)
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