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Let's talk about TLMC4 - Page 5

Forum Index > SC2 Maps & Custom Games
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Plexa
Profile Blog Joined October 2005
Aotearoa39261 Posts
May 14 2014 13:21 GMT
#81
On May 14 2014 21:49 And G wrote:
A big problem with those rules is this particular sentence in the TLMC4 announcement:

Show nested quote +
Maps which encourage the meta-game to develop in interesting ways will most likely score well.

I think that a lot of people took this as a sign that deviation from established map design principles was encouraged, especially in regards to naturals and the accessibility of thirds, so I'm not surprised that publishing the list of general rules (which really reads like your typical "how to create a decent map 101") after the contest left some mapmakers who thought TLMC wanted them to bend those very rules with a sour aftertaste. Even more so because the quote seemed to imply that more rigorous testing than usual would be taking place (because how else are you going to judge the effect a map has on the meta?) while in fact the exact opposite was the case.

A single sentence such as "maps should adhere to established map design conventions and not try to re-invent the wheel" could have prevented this confusion.

Firstly, NewSunshine pretty much summed it up. Everything in the OP are things that the best map makers are aware of and adhere to for all intents and purposes.

Secondly, there was a statement about the maps needing to be ladder appropriate. While admittedly that was in conjunction with removing any anti-ladder features like rising lava, there was an option to PM me directly to ask if your map was ladder appropriate.

Thirdly, that line has been used in all TLMCs (at least some variation on it has), it hasn't really caused issues in the past (except when all that "standard" maps won in TLMC2).

Fourth, monk echod eerily similar thoughts after TLMC2 so the information in the OP isn't entirely new.

Fifth, unless your contest explicitly is looking to challenge some of the ideas in the OP it's highly likely that any reasonable judging team will use similar metrics to the OP in order to determine the maps they like the most. Rather than interpreting this as a ruleset that was magically made up to judge maps against, you should see this as a break down of the thought process the judges had when evaluating the maps. When you put yourself in a similar position I think you'll go through similar motions. This information should be considered whenever you submit to a contest which will have judges assessing your map to maximise the chance that they will look at your map favorably.

Sixth, I appreciate that people are disappointed in the contest for whatever reason (be it because they didn't place, because they feel the contest mislead them, etc.) but I would hope that people are able to learn from this contest and improve as mappers. For instance, in your particular instance Crusader was starting to hint at all the things which makes a great map. Last season Uvantak submitted Seunos Pacificos (or something like that) which was the unofficial 8th placing map in TLMC3. He obviously built on those foundations in this contest and I think if you keep at it you have every opportunity to make an impact on the mapping scene.
Administrator~ Spirit will set you free ~
And G
Profile Joined May 2012
Germany491 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-05-14 15:26:13
May 14 2014 15:11 GMT
#82
Firstly, NewSunshine pretty much summed it up. Everything in the OP are things that the best map makers are aware of and adhere to for all intents and purposes.

Sorry, but I think that's simply not true. Especially the top mapmakers have been trying to find ways to deviate from established map design conventions, just take a look at Habitation Station for a successful example. See also both SidianTheBard's TLMC4 1v1 submissions and eTcetRa's Dominion Rose for maps that clearly try to make layouts work that are excluded by the rules in the OP. And those guys definitely belong to the "best map makers".

Overall, I think you're missing my point. I'm not complaining that those rules are there. As I said, they really are just your typical map design checklist. The problem I see is that those rules appear to be considered hard rules, while (some of) the mapmakers looked at them as soft rules. Which is totally understandable considering Habitation Station's success and the sentence I quoted in my previous post.

Basically, a mapmaker thinks "Okay, so you can't FFE on this map, but it's still alright because of X and Y" while your attitude is "FFE isn't viable so it's automatically a bad map". I just think that could have been communicated better (in advance).

It's not something that applies to me anyway; I just wanted to show you why I think that those who are complaining aren't complaining about nothing. This isn't related to the maps I submitted at all.

monk echod eerily similar thoughts after TLMC2

Not enough minerals rights.
not a community mapmaker
Samro225am
Profile Joined August 2010
Germany982 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-05-14 15:55:16
May 14 2014 15:51 GMT
#83
On May 14 2014 22:21 Plexa wrote:
Sixth, I appreciate that people are disappointed in the contest for whatever reason (be it because they didn't place, because they feel the contest mislead them, etc.) but I would hope that people are able to learn from this contest and improve as mappers.


As a map maker who made the finals in all earlier TLMC I sure am disappointed not to place this time. Even worse my map is quoted as an example of bad features / mistakes... :D

on a more serious note - very serious actually - i would like to see more time spend in communication with possible finalists. As my map was quoted for something like too little difference between open areas and chokes or too tight chokes overall respectively, i feel like that there are things that sometimes (can) go wrong on some maps - that actually have some potential - and would be worth a second look after judges forward their criticism to the map's author. e.g. that map would be good without XWT, that map would make it with smaller/bigger chokes, etc. Often things take very little time to adjust, etc.

so this is in no way meant as a criticism on TLMC4, yet looking towards future contests I think this would help map makers on all levels to understand and appreciate feedback, because they are given the chance to adjust the map in a second phase. actually that could mean you involve more map makers in the second phase that you initially think have a chance. but when i look at the results of this tlmc i feel like the pool could be much more dense with higher quality maps, if map makers had time to look at the maps again.

i assume sending out feedback on 20 maps out of 100 can still be reasonable enough and from these you go down to 5. I am sure you had discussed a pool of that size anyway before you decided on the final picks.

edit: this is something i had mentioned in privat chat with some people already, et i felt like repeating this idea again here in public.
thedongwinall
Profile Joined May 2014
10 Posts
May 14 2014 16:24 GMT
#84
bad map winner very bad
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