• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 20:25
CEST 02:25
KST 09:25
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
[ASL21] Ro4 Preview: On Course12Code S Season 1 - RO8 Preview7[ASL21] Ro8 Preview Pt2: Progenitors8Code S Season 1 - RO12 Group A: Rogue, Percival, Solar, Zoun13[ASL21] Ro8 Preview Pt1: Inheritors16
Community News
Weekly Cups (May 4-10): Clem, MaxPax, herO win1Maestros of The Game 2 announcement and schedule !10Weekly Cups (April 27-May 4): Clem takes triple0RSL Revival: Season 5 - Qualifiers and Main Event12Code S Season 1 (2026) - RO12 Results1
StarCraft 2
General
MaNa leaves Team Liquid Weekly Cups (May 4-10): Clem, MaxPax, herO win Code S Season 1 - RO8 Preview Behind the Blue - Team Liquid History Book Weekly Cups (April 27-May 4): Clem takes triple
Tourneys
2026 GSL Season 2 Qualifiers $5,000 WardiTV Spring Championship 2026 Maestros of The Game 2 announcement and schedule ! SC2 INu's Battles#16 <BO.9> Master Swan Open (Global Bronze-Master 2)
Strategy
Custom Maps
[D]RTS in all its shapes and glory <3 [A] Nemrods 1/4 players
External Content
Mutation # 525 Wheel of Misfortune The PondCast: SC2 News & Results Mutation # 524 Death and Taxes Mutation # 523 Firewall
Brood War
General
(Spoiler) Interview ASL Ro4 Day 2 Winner Data needed Flashes ASL S21 Ro8 Review ASL Tickets to Live Event Finals? Pros React To: Leta vs Tulbo (ASL S21, Ro.8)
Tourneys
[ASL21] Semifinals B [Megathread] Daily Proleagues [ASL21] Semifinals A [BSL22] RO16 Group Stage - 02 - 10 May
Strategy
[G] Hydra ZvZ: An Introduction Simple Questions, Simple Answers Fighting Spirit mining rates Muta micro map competition
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Nintendo Switch Thread Warcraft III: The Frozen Throne Starcraft Tabletop Miniature Game PC Games Sales Thread
Dota 2
The Story of Wings Gaming
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
Vanilla Mini Mafia Mafia Game Mode Feedback/Ideas TL Mafia Community Thread Five o'clock TL Mafia
Community
General
Russo-Ukrainian War Thread US Politics Mega-thread UK Politics Mega-thread YouTube Thread European Politico-economics QA Mega-thread
Fan Clubs
The IdrA Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
[Manga] One Piece Anime Discussion Thread [Req][Books] Good Fantasy/SciFi books
Sports
2024 - 2026 Football Thread McBoner: A hockey love story Formula 1 Discussion
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
streaming software Strange computer issues (software) [G] How to Block Livestream Ads
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
How EEG Data Can Predict Gam…
TrAiDoS
ramps on octagon
StaticNine
Funny Nicknames
LUCKY_NOOB
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 2946 users

Let's talk about TLMC4 - Page 5

Forum Index > SC2 Maps & Custom Games
Post a Reply
Prev 1 2 3 4 5 All
Plexa
Profile Blog Joined October 2005
Aotearoa39261 Posts
May 14 2014 13:21 GMT
#81
On May 14 2014 21:49 And G wrote:
A big problem with those rules is this particular sentence in the TLMC4 announcement:

Show nested quote +
Maps which encourage the meta-game to develop in interesting ways will most likely score well.

I think that a lot of people took this as a sign that deviation from established map design principles was encouraged, especially in regards to naturals and the accessibility of thirds, so I'm not surprised that publishing the list of general rules (which really reads like your typical "how to create a decent map 101") after the contest left some mapmakers who thought TLMC wanted them to bend those very rules with a sour aftertaste. Even more so because the quote seemed to imply that more rigorous testing than usual would be taking place (because how else are you going to judge the effect a map has on the meta?) while in fact the exact opposite was the case.

A single sentence such as "maps should adhere to established map design conventions and not try to re-invent the wheel" could have prevented this confusion.

Firstly, NewSunshine pretty much summed it up. Everything in the OP are things that the best map makers are aware of and adhere to for all intents and purposes.

Secondly, there was a statement about the maps needing to be ladder appropriate. While admittedly that was in conjunction with removing any anti-ladder features like rising lava, there was an option to PM me directly to ask if your map was ladder appropriate.

Thirdly, that line has been used in all TLMCs (at least some variation on it has), it hasn't really caused issues in the past (except when all that "standard" maps won in TLMC2).

Fourth, monk echod eerily similar thoughts after TLMC2 so the information in the OP isn't entirely new.

Fifth, unless your contest explicitly is looking to challenge some of the ideas in the OP it's highly likely that any reasonable judging team will use similar metrics to the OP in order to determine the maps they like the most. Rather than interpreting this as a ruleset that was magically made up to judge maps against, you should see this as a break down of the thought process the judges had when evaluating the maps. When you put yourself in a similar position I think you'll go through similar motions. This information should be considered whenever you submit to a contest which will have judges assessing your map to maximise the chance that they will look at your map favorably.

Sixth, I appreciate that people are disappointed in the contest for whatever reason (be it because they didn't place, because they feel the contest mislead them, etc.) but I would hope that people are able to learn from this contest and improve as mappers. For instance, in your particular instance Crusader was starting to hint at all the things which makes a great map. Last season Uvantak submitted Seunos Pacificos (or something like that) which was the unofficial 8th placing map in TLMC3. He obviously built on those foundations in this contest and I think if you keep at it you have every opportunity to make an impact on the mapping scene.
Administrator~ Spirit will set you free ~
And G
Profile Joined May 2012
Germany491 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-05-14 15:26:13
May 14 2014 15:11 GMT
#82
Firstly, NewSunshine pretty much summed it up. Everything in the OP are things that the best map makers are aware of and adhere to for all intents and purposes.

Sorry, but I think that's simply not true. Especially the top mapmakers have been trying to find ways to deviate from established map design conventions, just take a look at Habitation Station for a successful example. See also both SidianTheBard's TLMC4 1v1 submissions and eTcetRa's Dominion Rose for maps that clearly try to make layouts work that are excluded by the rules in the OP. And those guys definitely belong to the "best map makers".

Overall, I think you're missing my point. I'm not complaining that those rules are there. As I said, they really are just your typical map design checklist. The problem I see is that those rules appear to be considered hard rules, while (some of) the mapmakers looked at them as soft rules. Which is totally understandable considering Habitation Station's success and the sentence I quoted in my previous post.

Basically, a mapmaker thinks "Okay, so you can't FFE on this map, but it's still alright because of X and Y" while your attitude is "FFE isn't viable so it's automatically a bad map". I just think that could have been communicated better (in advance).

It's not something that applies to me anyway; I just wanted to show you why I think that those who are complaining aren't complaining about nothing. This isn't related to the maps I submitted at all.

monk echod eerily similar thoughts after TLMC2

Not enough minerals rights.
not a community mapmaker
Samro225am
Profile Joined August 2010
Germany982 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-05-14 15:55:16
May 14 2014 15:51 GMT
#83
On May 14 2014 22:21 Plexa wrote:
Sixth, I appreciate that people are disappointed in the contest for whatever reason (be it because they didn't place, because they feel the contest mislead them, etc.) but I would hope that people are able to learn from this contest and improve as mappers.


As a map maker who made the finals in all earlier TLMC I sure am disappointed not to place this time. Even worse my map is quoted as an example of bad features / mistakes... :D

on a more serious note - very serious actually - i would like to see more time spend in communication with possible finalists. As my map was quoted for something like too little difference between open areas and chokes or too tight chokes overall respectively, i feel like that there are things that sometimes (can) go wrong on some maps - that actually have some potential - and would be worth a second look after judges forward their criticism to the map's author. e.g. that map would be good without XWT, that map would make it with smaller/bigger chokes, etc. Often things take very little time to adjust, etc.

so this is in no way meant as a criticism on TLMC4, yet looking towards future contests I think this would help map makers on all levels to understand and appreciate feedback, because they are given the chance to adjust the map in a second phase. actually that could mean you involve more map makers in the second phase that you initially think have a chance. but when i look at the results of this tlmc i feel like the pool could be much more dense with higher quality maps, if map makers had time to look at the maps again.

i assume sending out feedback on 20 maps out of 100 can still be reasonable enough and from these you go down to 5. I am sure you had discussed a pool of that size anyway before you decided on the final picks.

edit: this is something i had mentioned in privat chat with some people already, et i felt like repeating this idea again here in public.
thedongwinall
Profile Joined May 2014
10 Posts
May 14 2014 16:24 GMT
#84
bad map winner very bad
Prev 1 2 3 4 5 All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
PiGosaur Cup
00:00
#81 (TLMC 22 Edition)
PiGStarcraft371
Liquipedia
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
PiGStarcraft375
CosmosSc2 44
StarCraft: Brood War
GuemChi 5656
Artosis 640
Dota 2
monkeys_forever651
NeuroSwarm89
LuMiX1
Counter-Strike
fl0m4423
Super Smash Bros
hungrybox414
AZ_Axe95
PPMD32
Other Games
summit1g10231
shahzam867
Day[9].tv848
C9.Mang0458
Maynarde98
UpATreeSC83
kaitlyn41
ViBE37
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick416
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
[ Show 18 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• Hupsaiya 80
• RyuSc2 48
• musti20045 38
• davetesta16
• IndyKCrew
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• sooper7s
• intothetv
• Kozan
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
StarCraft: Brood War
• Pr0nogo 4
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
• BSLYoutube
Other Games
• Scarra1521
• imaqtpie889
• Day9tv848
Upcoming Events
Replay Cast
8h 35m
Replay Cast
23h 35m
The PondCast
1d 9h
OSC
1d 9h
Replay Cast
1d 23h
RSL Revival
2 days
OSC
2 days
Korean StarCraft League
3 days
RSL Revival
3 days
BSL
3 days
[ Show More ]
GSL
4 days
Cure vs herO
SHIN vs Maru
BSL
4 days
Replay Cast
5 days
Replay Cast
5 days
The PondCast
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Proleague 2026-05-12
WardiTV TLMC #16
Nations Cup 2026

Ongoing

BSL Season 22
ASL Season 21
IPSL Spring 2026
KCM Race Survival 2026 Season 2
Acropolis #4
KK 2v2 League Season 1
BSL 22 Non-Korean Championship
SCTL 2026 Spring
RSL Revival: Season 5
2026 GSL S1
Asian Champions League 2026
IEM Atlanta 2026
PGL Astana 2026
BLAST Rivals Spring 2026
IEM Rio 2026
PGL Bucharest 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 1
BLAST Open Spring 2026
ESL Pro League S23 Finals
ESL Pro League S23 Stage 1&2

Upcoming

Escore Tournament S2: W7
YSL S3
Escore Tournament S2: W8
CSLAN 4
Kung Fu Cup 2026 Grand Finals
HSC XXIX
uThermal 2v2 2026 Main Event
Maestros of the Game 2
WardiTV Spring 2026
2026 GSL S2
BLAST Bounty Summer 2026: Closed Qualifier
Stake Ranked Episode 3
XSE Pro League 2026
IEM Cologne Major 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 2
CS Asia Championships 2026
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2026 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.