It has been quite the popular trend, from mapmakers to professional players, to critique Blizzard maps. Some come across as poking fun, and others as more harsh or hateful. However, one must ask, can the community do better?
Clearly, maps such as Cloud Kingdom and Daybreak show the community is capable of making great maps. However, nothing brings quite as much legitimacy as executing Blizzard maps better than Blizzard. Thus, I challenge the community to do just that. This is intended to not only be a fun experience, but also to demonstrate to the public that community mapmakers are just as talented and skilled, if not more so, than the professionally paid Blizzard mapmakers.
How this Works
Competitors will choose any map of their choice created by Blizzard, and improve upon it in regards to both aesthetics and gameplay. Eligible maps include both 1v1 and team maps created by Blizzard. Note, not all Blizzard maps were on ladder, nor were all ladder maps made by Blizzard. I will have a list of a few specific unavailable maps below. Competitors are to improve upon the map(s) of their choice with the current metagame in mind.
The submitted maps will then be voted on by public vote to determine whether they are better, just as good, or worse than the blizzard original in the categories of gameplay and aesthetics. Where there are no particular winners or losers, the most popular and notable will be featured in the original post with the conclusion of the challenge. Additionally, there are currently no prizes aside the bragging rights. Nonetheless, dedication toward your submissions would be greatly appreciated!
Rules
If there are any questions with the following rules, or if you are unsure your layout or aesthetics meet the following limitations, feel free to send me a PM.
Any map made by Blizzard is available for use.
Any community map that was altered by Blizzard, such as Taldarim Altar, is not available for use.
There are no limitations on who can or cannot submit. Though, you will obviously need a TL account in order to submit.
A single person may submit up to 2 maps, team or 1v1.
The maps can be changed within the confines of their original core ideas and layout. In other words, do not start with a Shattered Temple, and end up with an Entombed Valley. Must be recognizable from the original.
All aesthetic touches including textures, cliff types, lighting, and doodads can be swapped in and out. However, the original aesthetic theme must be preserved. For example, lava can be added to Jungle Basin, but the Bel'shir Jungle theme must continue to be prominent. Must be recognizable from the original aesthetics.
The current Heart of the Swarm metagame is to be kept in mind while improving upon the maps.
The maps are to be created as if they were ladder maps. So Blizzard standards apply.
Unavailable for Entry
The following maps have appeared on ladder, but are community made and thus not accepted for entry. All other community created maps are also unavailable for entry. Only refurbished versions of Blizzard created maps are accepted.
Tal'Darim Altar
Daybreak
Metropolis
Cloud Kingdom
Korhal Compound
Ohana
Neo Planet S
Belshir Vestige
Whirlwind
How to Submit
Submissions will be posted within this thread. A submission post is to include the following:
Map name and author name.
High resolution overview images of the original and refurbished version.
Playable map size of the original and refurbished version.
Nice close up pictures to show off the new and finely tuned aesthetics of the refurbished version. Anywhere from 4 -10 seems suffice.
Maps are to be submitted by Monday, June 24th at 11:59pm KST. The voting phase will start shortly after, and last for roughly a week. Good luck, and have fun!
Are multiple versions allowed to be designed from the same map? By different authors? By the same author?
The more important question: Are there any minimum or maximum standards of what constitutes a different map beyond recognizable? For example: May we resize the map? Must we? Can the mains be moved? Must they? Can any other bases be moved? Must they? Can rush distances be altered? Must they? Can attack path widths be altered? Must they? Can base sizes be changed? Must they? Can mineral or gas placement be moved? Must they? Can mineral patches or geysers be added/removed? Must they? Can we lower/raise the terrain at any point? Must we? Can ramp sizes be altered? Must they?
I'd also recommend that image sizes and orientation be standardized; something like 6 times the full map bounds for each map. It'd make it easier to compare them.
On June 03 2013 09:43 FlyingBeer wrote: Are multiple versions allowed to be designed from the same map? By different authors? By the same author?
The more important question: Are there any minimum or maximum standards of what constitutes a different map beyond recognizable? For example: May we resize the map? Must we? Can the mains be moved? Must they? Can any other bases be moved? Must they? Can rush distances be altered? Must they? Can attack path widths be altered? Must they? Can base sizes be changed? Must they? Can mineral or gas placement be moved? Must they? Can mineral patches or geysers be added/removed? Must they? Can we lower/raise the terrain at any point? Must we? Can ramp sizes be altered? Must they?
I'd also recommend that image sizes and orientation be standardized; something like 6 times the full map bounds for each map. It'd make it easier to compare them.
You are able to do everything you listed as long as the map confines to the original core ideas and layout. You are entirely welcome to add bases, remove bases, narrow pathways, make a certain section high ground, add rocks, remove a XWT, ect. However, the altered map has to greatly resemble the original. In other words, the altered map just has to be a better executed version of the original. However, you do not have to make any physical changes if you feel they are unnecessary. You can simply touch up the aesthetics if you desire, but not recommended.
Though, as far as adding and removing mineral patches and geysers, you must keep in mind that bases must be along the standards: blue bases are 8m 2g and golds are 6m 2g. I have this rule so the maps are essentially ladder ready, just as Blizzard's are.
I fail to see the point in this challenge. Every player I know already think that Blizzard's maps are bad for the most part and the good stuff comes from the community and Korean/GSL mappers. I prefer to make my own maps instead of fixing Blizzard's.
I've already started messing around with Xel'Naga Caverns. I'm surprised at how significant the changes I'm having to make are considering this used to be one of the best maps available. I'm noticing major issues with every single base on the map.
Luckily I've already made an improved version (at least imo) of Desert Oasis back in the day, even though it was one of my 1st maps so the map is not completely symmetric, and the aesthetics are really not that good. I did fix it up a bit, making the looks slightly better and the layout to be more fitting for HotS, but it is still not that good of a remake. The only reason I am not making a new version is because I don't have a lot of time, so here it is:
The name of the remake is "Shomem", which means desolate in Hebrew.
Original: (Playable bounds 140x140)
Remake: (Playable bounds 148x148)
Sadly I think the aesthetics of DO are better than those of my own map, but to my defense it was a really long time ago.
On June 03 2013 11:11 spinnaker wrote: I fail to see the point in this challenge. Every player I know already think that Blizzard's maps are bad for the most part and the good stuff comes from the community and Korean/GSL mappers. I prefer to make my own maps instead of fixing Blizzard's.
First thing, Akilon is one of the best maps on ladder right now, if not the best, and this is according to many people I talk to, and while you do say "for the most part", people tend to forget that not only "bad" maps come out of Blizzard.
About the "bad" maps, basically people just like to hate on Blizzard because its easy, but overall their maps use to be meant to shake up the metagame, maps like Klontas Mire, Entombed Valley and Korhal City are really different than the standard, which most people don't like, but is the best way to make the game more interesting. In fact the only reason the game got so stale in the later stages of WoL is because people stopped Blizzard from changing the metagame with maps because every new map that wasn't exactly like Daybreak got flamed and called "another bad Blizzard map". Of course Blizzard made some actual bad maps and kept them in the map pool for too long, but its not as horrible as people make it to be.
When talking about Blizzard maps people like to talk of maps from the beta or early WoL as examples, which at least for me sounds very silly as you have to remember no one knew anything about the game at the time, and they just toyed around to see what the players like and what makes the game the best, which eventually turned out to be bigger maps with easy naturals, although it was impossible to know that from the start. Another thing to notice is that many people praise Icarus while looking down at Klontas Mire, which is funny because the maps are very similar, this just shows how much people are biased against Blizzard.
On June 03 2013 11:11 spinnaker wrote: I fail to see the point in this challenge. Every player I know already think that Blizzard's maps are bad for the most part and the good stuff comes from the community and Korean/GSL mappers. I prefer to make my own maps instead of fixing Blizzard's.
First thing, Akilon is one of the best maps on ladder right now, if not the best, and this is according to many people I talk to, and while you do say "for the most part", people tend to forget that not only "bad" maps come out of Blizzard.
About the "bad" maps, basically people just like to hate on Blizzard because its easy, but overall their maps use to be meant to shake up the metagame, maps like Klontas Mire, Entombed Valley and Korhal City are really different than the standard, which most people don't like, but is the best way to make the game more interesting. In fact the only reason the game got so stale in the later stages of WoL is because people stopped Blizzard from changing the metagame with maps because every new map that wasn't exactly like Daybreak got flamed and called "another bad Blizzard map". Of course Blizzard made some actual bad maps and kept them in the map pool for too long, but its not as horrible as people make it to be.
When talking about Blizzard maps people like to talk of maps from the beta or early WoL as examples, which at least for me sounds very silly as you have to remember no one knew anything about the game at the time, and they just toyed around to see what the players like and what makes the game the best, which eventually turned out to be bigger maps with easy naturals, although it was impossible to know that from the start. Another thing to notice is that many people praise Icarus while looking down at Klontas Mire, which is funny because the maps are very similar, this just shows how much people are biased against Blizzard.
I wholeheartedly agree with this post. Blizzard has put fourth a very respectable amount of good maps.
I have another slightly less dumb question, does anyone know how to convert the a map to HOTS, so that I'm able to use HOTS textures, doodads, etc.?
**EDIT** never mind figured it out myself ^_______^ for anyone else having this problem, go to file > dependencies... click "add standard" and add the on called Swarm(mod), I think you can remove the one called Liberty(mod) without getting into trouble.
**EDIT2** the ever helpful timetwister22 ninja'd me.
On June 03 2013 13:11 WedRine wrote: I have another slightly less dumb question, does anyone know how to convert the a map to HOTS, so that I'm able to use HOTS textures, doodads, etc.?
File>Dependencies. Add the dependency called 'Swarm (mod)' and remove any others.
This has an interesting subjective constraint on what is permissible. For example, this thing, which is awesome and should definitely be submitted. But does it count? I obviously learn towards yes, but there are some substantial "conceptual" differences, although there are also core similarities.
On June 03 2013 13:38 EatThePath wrote: Hahaha this is awesome, nice man.
This has an interesting subjective constraint on what is permissible. For example, this thing, which is awesome and should definitely be submitted. But does it count? I obviously learn towards yes, but there are some substantial "conceptual" differences, although there are also core similarities.
I would say that's a great example of just how far one can edit the map and be okay for submission. It is the core similarities that are to remain the same. Clearly, changing a map just a little will start to shift it's concept, especially if you mess around with rush distances.
Okay, so this was a fun project that I didn't take too too seriously. What I initially tried to do was make it all viable with today's meta and stuff, and while I think it might be better than the original its still no wonder. secondly I tried to capture the same ambiance which I think i did kinda OK, but the Mara Sara texture set is extremely buggy so the textures gave me a ton of trouble which is why the textures does look a little rushed, furthermore the entire map only took me about 5 hrs of on and off work to complete so obviously I haven't spend too much time thinking about the balance, (which can be seen, lol) I really enjoyed making it though and I look forward to see some more submissions.!
On June 03 2013 11:11 spinnaker wrote: I fail to see the point in this challenge. Every player I know already think that Blizzard's maps are bad for the most part and the good stuff comes from the community and Korean/GSL mappers. I prefer to make my own maps instead of fixing Blizzard's.
First thing, Akilon is one of the best maps on ladder right now, if not the best, and this is according to many people I talk to, and while you do say "for the most part", people tend to forget that not only "bad" maps come out of Blizzard.
About the "bad" maps, basically people just like to hate on Blizzard because its easy, but overall their maps use to be meant to shake up the metagame, maps like Klontas Mire, Entombed Valley and Korhal City are really different than the standard, which most people don't like, but is the best way to make the game more interesting. In fact the only reason the game got so stale in the later stages of WoL is because people stopped Blizzard from changing the metagame with maps because every new map that wasn't exactly like Daybreak got flamed and called "another bad Blizzard map". Of course Blizzard made some actual bad maps and kept them in the map pool for too long, but its not as horrible as people make it to be.
When talking about Blizzard maps people like to talk of maps from the beta or early WoL as examples, which at least for me sounds very silly as you have to remember no one knew anything about the game at the time, and they just toyed around to see what the players like and what makes the game the best, which eventually turned out to be bigger maps with easy naturals, although it was impossible to know that from the start. Another thing to notice is that many people praise Icarus while looking down at Klontas Mire, which is funny because the maps are very similar, this just shows how much people are biased against Blizzard.
Yeah, Shakuras Plateau and Entombed Valley are two of the best maps ever made although they both had to be altered before they were balanced. I need more time with it, but Derelict Watcher seems pretty cool too.
I think the reason people think Akilon Wastes is pretty good is because most tend to overlook PvT when discussing balance. The map makes it easy for Terran to drop their opponent, difficult for Protoss to defend, and nearly impossible for Protoss to use proxy pylon counter attacks. TLPD currently has Protoss at 43%. I suspect those numbers understate the problem as a lot of Protoss are probably 1 or 2 base all-inning on it. http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/hots/maps/558_Akilon_Wastes
But I don't get why you're defending Klontas Mire.
I think Blizzard has made some great maps, but we also got to consider that they have made some awful ones. Personally I loved Shakuras but do you remember scrap station? Sure it was entertaining to watch games on it and you had to completely think differently on that map cause every air rush was a proxy air rush (imagine that with oracles now) but it always felt to me like Blizzard was just trying to mess with my head on that map. Fun? Absolutely. Good? Let's not jump to conclusions. And Klontas? That map is just awful (imo).
However if we look at Newkirk City to Newkirk Redevelopment Precinct, someone gave Blizzard's map a little bit of love and all of a sudden an awful map becomes passable. I hope that people can give the maps the love they need. Extra points if you can fix Scrap Station or Klontas and make either one a decent map but I am not setting my hopes too high on that.
Hanging around, well, any forum, quite a bit, you see lots of shit being thrown at Blizzard's bad maps, while their good maps go relatively unmentioned. You can try to balance it out - and I do - but it's not a popular station here. Funny enough, the opposite happens with community maps. Countless times in the TL chat people have said that there are so many maps we could point to that are better - but keep in mind that, given 5 minutes, I could pull up 100 community maps that look absolutely terrible, probably more. I guess when you're the one complaining it's fun to have it both ways, but it's not really so bad when you look at it.
That said, I did sorta pick one of their less popular maps to overhaul, may or may not be Zerus Prime. I make no promises.
On June 03 2013 17:49 _BAR_ wrote: I think Blizzard has made some great maps, but we also got to consider that they have made some awful ones. Personally I loved Shakuras but do you remember scrap station? Sure it was entertaining to watch games on it and you had to completely think differently on that map cause every air rush was a proxy air rush (imagine that with oracles now) but it always felt to me like Blizzard was just trying to mess with my head on that map. Fun? Absolutely. Good? Let's not jump to conclusions. And Klontas? That map is just awful (imo).
However if we look at Newkirk City to Newkirk Redevelopment Precinct, someone gave Blizzard's map a little bit of love and all of a sudden an awful map becomes passable. I hope that people can give the maps the love they need. Extra points if you can fix Scrap Station or Klontas and make either one a decent map but I am not setting my hopes too high on that.
You love Shakuras but think Newkirk was Awful? I call that a contradiction. Their layout is extremely similar and their gameplay is like vise. But I guess the more mirror focused play was more accepted in WOL.
Also Newkirk Redevelopment Precinct strikes me as a map remake gone wrong. Mainly because the remake completely changes the overall strategy for the map. "Vanilla" Newkirk like Shakuras was a map that promoted the head-on engagement. It causes a lot of mirrored split map but it also means the players have to be honest with their army composition. Sure it is different but I do think it is that difference in promoted map strategies that could help differentiate maps in the future, if people are willing to accept it. This aren't cloud kingdom with infinite pathways around the terran mech army. You WILL face that mech head-on and you will LOVE it. What are you doing with 90 Zerglings? Get some meat get some Ultras.
On top of that the rock towers on the forward base wasn't moved meaning they are actually completely terrible now and really those rock tower are more likely to be taken down by an opponent raiding the base than the player expanding to that position. Rushed work without much thought is what I see when I look at this remake.
On June 03 2013 19:12 Sated wrote: Someone remake Zerus Prime with a normal natural choke. Seriously, if that map had a normal choke at the natural, it would be amazing... but it doesn't, so it's plain awkward to play on (as a Protoss).
the main-nat-third structure actually is so similar to akilon wastes one could easily take over akilon's rock mechanic and place it here. this would kill the stupid backdoor as it is right now and would keep the general concept of the map.
On June 03 2013 11:11 spinnaker wrote: I fail to see the point in this challenge. Every player I know already think that Blizzard's maps are bad for the most part and the good stuff comes from the community and Korean/GSL mappers. I prefer to make my own maps instead of fixing Blizzard's.
Have to side with this guy. OP, I get what you are trying to do, and I love community initiatives and all... but we already know the answer. Blizzard maps generally suck donkeyballs. Or rather : professional non-blizzard mapmakers do a way better job. (apologies to anyone who makes maps for blizzard reading this, but you just gotta say how it is.) EDIT : however, there can, and probably will, come some good maps out of it. gl hf to anyone who takes part in this contest.
On June 03 2013 19:12 Sated wrote: Someone remake Zerus Prime with a normal natural choke. Seriously, if that map had a normal choke at the natural, it would be amazing... but it doesn't, so it's plain awkward to play on (as a Protoss).
the main-nat-third structure actually is so similar to akilon wastes one could easily take over akilon's rock mechanic and place it here. this would kill the stupid backdoor as it is right now and would keep the general concept of the map.
On June 03 2013 19:12 Sated wrote: Someone remake Zerus Prime with a normal natural choke. Seriously, if that map had a normal choke at the natural, it would be amazing... but it doesn't, so it's plain awkward to play on (as a Protoss).
the main-nat-third structure actually is so similar to akilon wastes one could easily take over akilon's rock mechanic and place it here. this would kill the stupid backdoor as it is right now and would keep the general concept of the map.
edit: i'dd do backwater
already did, take a look at mine at page 1
So? Is this the Solution and a Reason i may Not pick it anymore?
Edit to be fair with Some feedback:
My Main issue is that you created a positional imbalances that was Not there before and Added a close by third. Also a Lot of the map's elegance is gone... It is mit the fixes version but an okay yet generic 4p that borrowed the theme or Copied the Mains. Nö Cookies for you yet, i will try to do better.
On June 03 2013 19:12 Sated wrote: Someone remake Zerus Prime with a normal natural choke. Seriously, if that map had a normal choke at the natural, it would be amazing... but it doesn't, so it's plain awkward to play on (as a Protoss).
the main-nat-third structure actually is so similar to akilon wastes one could easily take over akilon's rock mechanic and place it here. this would kill the stupid backdoor as it is right now and would keep the general concept of the map.
edit: i'dd do backwater
already did, take a look at mine at page 1
So? Is this the Solution and a Reason i may Not pick it anymore?
Um, nobody said that?
Perhaps, instead of telling people what you're doing, and then going on the offensive over it, just make the maps you wanna make. Sounds odd, but it might work.
On June 03 2013 19:12 Sated wrote: Someone remake Zerus Prime with a normal natural choke. Seriously, if that map had a normal choke at the natural, it would be amazing... but it doesn't, so it's plain awkward to play on (as a Protoss).
the main-nat-third structure actually is so similar to akilon wastes one could easily take over akilon's rock mechanic and place it here. this would kill the stupid backdoor as it is right now and would keep the general concept of the map.
edit: i'dd do backwater
already did, take a look at mine at page 1
So? Is this the Solution and a Reason i may Not pick it anymore?
Um, nobody said that?
Perhaps, instead of telling people what you're doing, and then going on the offensive over it, just make the maps you wanna make. Sounds odd, but it might work.
You could Give me at least the 30seconds for an edit before yelling Sheriff. Also: None of your Business i guess, is it?
Edit: BTW he Quoted my argument on another Map just to refer to his map... Oh well Edit2: typos, stupid German iPad Software
On June 04 2013 06:20 Samro225am wrote: You could Give me at least the 30seconds for an edit before yelling Sheriff. Also: None of your Business i guess, is it?
Edit: BTW he Quoted my argument on another Map just to refer to his map... Oh well Edit2: typos, stupid German iPad Software
Whatever man. I saw a douchebag response to an innocuous comment, I responded. I'm not going to argue with you.
On topic: what if there's a 2v2, or 3v3 or 4v4 map, and we see a way to turn it into a 1v1 map? Or, along the same lines, we see a 2-spawn map, and decide it could make a good 3 or 4-spawn map instead, would this work? Hasn't really been touched in the rules.
On June 04 2013 06:35 NewSunshine wrote: On topic: what if there's a 2v2, or 3v3 or 4v4 map, and we see a way to turn it into a 1v1 map? Or, along the same lines, we see a 2-spawn map, and decide it could make a good 3 or 4-spawn map instead, would this work? Hasn't really been touched in the rules.
I would assume that it is allowed as long as you keep the general theme of the original map as stated in the first post.
Honestly I really didn't want to start an argument, I just tried to get some feedback on my map, and since I saw the chance, I went for it. also(@samro255am) I by no means tried to scare you away or in other ways tried to stop you from remaking backwater, it was more like a "hey, I see you want to remake backwater, I did that, take a look to see how it could be done".
Now lets just enjoy this fun challenge and by the way its really fun! - seeing how much/little you have to change to make a map viable, is kind of intriguing. again sorry for the hassle I've caused, I'll just go remake another map.
On June 04 2013 06:35 NewSunshine wrote: On topic: what if there's a 2v2, or 3v3 or 4v4 map, and we see a way to turn it into a 1v1 map? Or, along the same lines, we see a 2-spawn map, and decide it could make a good 3 or 4-spawn map instead, would this work? Hasn't really been touched in the rules.
I would say no because we want to be able to compare the map to the original. Completely changing what metagame is used on the map will make it very difficult to do so.
Edit: Metagame might be a bad word, considering we're trying to adapt Xel'naga Caverns to today's metagame. Though, the same idea still applies. 1v1 maps should remain 1v1, 2v2 should stay 2v2, etc. Otherwise they're too different from the original.
@moskonia My statement is not to be taken as shallow criticism towards blizzard's maps. I can easily see past the first six months of Blizzard's maps, since no one had any idea how the game would and should play out. So i don't mind their sins of this time. What i mind though, are the maps that followed. It's not about pushing the metagame in a certain direction. It's about failure to disable close ground spawns ("it would confuse new players"), blocking 3rds with rocks or making them impossible to take, while tournaments already recognized these issues and had decent maps. Let's take a look at all maps that they ever put out for 1on1:
Season 1 / July 2010: Blistering Sands, Steppes of War, Desert Oasis, Kulas Ravine, Lost Temple, Metalopolis, Scrap Station, Shakuras Plateau ~> no need to talk, nobody knew how SC2 would play out, so they released it with a wide variety of different maps.
Ladder Map Update (Season 1) / February 2011 Backwater Gulch, Slag Pits, The Shattered Temple, Typhon Peaks, Shakuras Plateau ~> wow, by this time we had an idea of what maps would need to provide. 3gate expo was standard in PvZ for example, we learned that close ground spawns are a terrible idea, yet every single new map in the ladder had them. Slag Pits, Backwater Gulch and Typhon Peaks were plain awful back then as they are now. Shattered Temple was decent unless it was close spawn, but mostly because it just featured a lot of plain terrain in the middle while each player could reasonably take expansions on their side of the map. Same goes for Shakuras Plateau which got decent in it's second revision without the backdoor to the mains. At this point in time, Map of the Month already had its second tournament going, and had better maps in store like The Crucible (dezi), Decline (Samro), Pawn (monitor) or Ptolemy (Grebliv). GSL ignored most of the new maps in favor of their own and introduced Crevasse, Tal'Darim Altar and Terminus instead - maps that had a huge impact on the metagame and finally allowed for heavy macro-focused play.
Patch 1.3 (end of Season 1) / March 2011 Tal'darim Altar LE ~> Blizzard introduces one of the big macro maps to ladder play. Players are really happy with it, that Blizz gave a map a chance at ladder that's not their own. Yet they change the map in a way that disallows for a quick 3rd by blocking it off with rocks. Zergs take their expo at another spot instead. Mappers and players wonder why blizzard is so hesitant to allow for more bases. First the natural was hard to take, now it's the 3rd.
Ladder Season 3 / July 2011 Abyssal Caverns, Antiga Shipyard, Nerazim Crypt, Searing Crater ~> Blizzard throws in more terrible maps. The only one that got into a tournament is Antiga Shipyards. The other three are just terrible. But at least you can finally take your natural in a way that makes FE builds reasonable. Meanwhile is Map of the Month #7. We could have Core Delta (Meltage), Odyssey (lefix), Sanctuarium (funcmode), One must fall (dezi) or Hysteria (Antares777) instead. GSL sticks to it macro-oriented maps and introduces Bel'Shir beach.
Ladder Season 5 / December 2011 Arid Plateau, Entombed Valley ~> Finally viable 3rds! Entombed was decent unless close spawns, Arid Plateau could have been okay as well if they didn't make that terrible layout at the natural. We could have had Emerald Jungle (lefix), Overgrown (Meltage), Derelict (Grebliv) or Tenaris (Johanaz) from MotM#9 instead.
Ladder Season 6 / January 2012 Cloud Kingdom, Korhal Compound ~> TLMC concludes, two more community maps finally make it into ladder. Korhal turned out to be not so great, but considering what the ladder map pool looked like at the time, it still beat Blizzards maps. GSL features maps like Daybreak, Dual Sight, Metropolis and Calm before the storm.
Ladder Season 7 / April 2012 Daybreak, Metropolis, Ohana ~> Blizzard finally seems to give up on making their own maps and introduces these great maps. That's the first time i heard that players were really happy with the ladder map pool since it finally features tournament-viable maps (beforehand a often heard complaint was, that laddering wasn't good practice but a waste of time because of maps). On the other hand, that's the last time until HotS that Blizzard made changes to the map pool for almost an entire year.
Basically every time Blizzard introduced new maps of their own, i would sit in TeamSpeak and talk with clanmates or mappers and we were appalled by what they threw in for ladder play. Usually it was one decent map, and three terrible ones. Players were talking which maps they had to veto the most badly (not enough vetos to get rid of all the bad ones) and mappers were shaking their hads in disbelief: Why does Blizzard include these simple-minded maps that have serious problems gameplay wise which even we could already recognize by simply looking at them? I can remember that iNcontroL said something along the lines of "They look like on of their trainees made them within an hour and just smudged something together." on SotG. This is not about Klontas or Zerus Prime (which are not as bad as in the past, but considering what we could have instead, they're not good), this is about Nerazim Crypt, Searing Crater, Abyssal Caverns, Arid Plateau, Slag Pits, Backwater Gulch and Typhon Peaks.
On June 04 2013 07:38 WedRine wrote: Honestly I really didn't want to start an argument, I just tried to get some feedback on my map, and since I saw the chance, I went for it. also(@samro255am) I by no means tried to scare you away or in other ways tried to stop you from remaking backwater, it was more like a "hey, I see you want to remake backwater, I did that, take a look to see how it could be done".
Now lets just enjoy this fun challenge and by the way its really fun! - seeing how much/little you have to change to make a map viable, is kind of intriguing. again sorry for the hassle I've caused, I'll just go remake another map.
You don't have to choose another map just because someone else might do it, that's actually one of the cool potentialities of this contest. If most people agree that X Blizzard map is bad, and 2 or 3 people make a revision of it, we'll get to see each mapper's approach to fixing the map's glaring flaws, instead of each person holding a monopoly on a map. Also, this contest is supposed to be fun, and that's difficult when you have people claiming dibs over each other. Don't sweat it, do whatever you feel most happy with.
Enchanted Valley This is my submission of a redesigned Entombed Valley with all spawns enabled. I added more terrain features designed to encourage more interesting play, as well as keeping the theme of a strong XWT but slightly nerfed by splitting them and making them unable to see the middle. Enchanted Valley 148x148 Original 148x148 + Show Spoiler +
Notes Main - Increased size to more modern standards Natural - To allow for standard expansions, reduced the two chokes in front into one single choke, added rocks blocking back door entrance, moved ramp leading to third to outside the natural choke 3rd - moved and rotated base to reduce exposure along backside to things like blink stalker and marine/medivac attacks, added third ramp to back area to create a reasonable means for Zerg and Protoss to defend the back of their third against things like medivac drops, added collapsible towers to reduce openness of third, left slight gap past the collapsed rocks to still allow ling run-bys, hellion harass, and proxy pylon counters from the back even after rocks are collapsed Gold - slightly repositioned to accommodate changes to natural and 3rd outside base - pushed back to create a viable 4th base for Zerg; at present, the rush distance to both it and the gold base was too short, and both bases too far forward for either to be viable 6th - added in front of main
I didn't spend a whole lot of time updating the aesthetics just because I didn't feel like it. Blizzard texturing tends to be on the sloppy side, but their doodad work is usually tops to make up for it.
Playable Bounds Original: 124 x 124 Remake: 130 x 124
On June 04 2013 09:09 spinnaker wrote: @moskonia My statement is not to be taken as shallow criticism towards blizzard's maps. I can easily see past the first six months of Blizzard's maps, since no one had any idea how the game would and should play out. So i don't mind their sins of this time. What i mind though, are the maps that followed. It's not about pushing the metagame in a certain direction. It's about failure to disable close ground spawns ("it would confuse new players"), blocking 3rds with rocks or making them impossible to take, while tournaments already recognized these issues and had decent maps. Let's take a look at all maps that they ever put out for 1on1:
Season 1 / July 2010: Blistering Sands, Steppes of War, Desert Oasis, Kulas Ravine, Lost Temple, Metalopolis, Scrap Station, Shakuras Plateau ~> no need to talk, nobody knew how SC2 would play out, so they released it with a wide variety of different maps.
Ladder Map Update (Season 1) / February 2011 Backwater Gulch, Slag Pits, The Shattered Temple, Typhon Peaks, Shakuras Plateau ~> wow, by this time we had an idea of what maps would need to provide. 3gate expo was standard in PvZ for example, we learned that close ground spawns are a terrible idea, yet every single new map in the ladder had them. Slag Pits, Backwater Gulch and Typhon Peaks were plain awful back then as they are now. Shattered Temple was decent unless it was close spawn, but mostly because it just featured a lot of plain terrain in the middle while each player could reasonably take expansions on their side of the map. Same goes for Shakuras Plateau which got decent in it's second revision without the backdoor to the mains. At this point in time, Map of the Month already had its second tournament going, and had better maps in store like The Crucible (dezi), Decline (Samro), Pawn (monitor) or Ptolemy (Grebliv). GSL ignored most of the new maps in favor of their own and introduced Crevasse, Tal'Darim Altar and Terminus instead - maps that had a huge impact on the metagame and finally allowed for heavy macro-focused play.
Patch 1.3 (end of Season 1) / March 2011 Tal'darim Altar LE ~> Blizzard introduces one of the big macro maps to ladder play. Players are really happy with it, that Blizz gave a map a chance at ladder that's not their own. Yet they change the map in a way that disallows for a quick 3rd by blocking it off with rocks. Zergs take their expo at another spot instead. Mappers and players wonder why blizzard is so hesitant to allow for more bases. First the natural was hard to take, now it's the 3rd.
Ladder Season 3 / July 2011 Abyssal Caverns, Antiga Shipyard, Nerazim Crypt, Searing Crater ~> Blizzard throws in more terrible maps. The only one that got into a tournament is Antiga Shipyards. The other three are just terrible. But at least you can finally take your natural in a way that makes FE builds reasonable. Meanwhile is Map of the Month #7. We could have Core Delta (Meltage), Odyssey (lefix), Sanctuarium (funcmode), One must fall (dezi) or Hysteria (Antares777) instead. GSL sticks to it macro-oriented maps and introduces Bel'Shir beach.
Ladder Season 5 / December 2011 Arid Plateau, Entombed Valley ~> Finally viable 3rds! Entombed was decent unless close spawns, Arid Plateau could have been okay as well if they didn't make that terrible layout at the natural. We could have had Emerald Jungle (lefix), Overgrown (Meltage), Derelict (Grebliv) or Tenaris (Johanaz) from MotM#9 instead.
Ladder Season 6 / January 2012 Cloud Kingdom, Korhal Compound ~> TLMC concludes, two more community maps finally make it into ladder. Korhal turned out to be not so great, but considering what the ladder map pool looked like at the time, it still beat Blizzards maps. GSL features maps like Daybreak, Dual Sight, Metropolis and Calm before the storm.
Ladder Season 7 / April 2012 Daybreak, Metropolis, Ohana ~> Blizzard finally seems to give up on making their own maps and introduces these great maps. That's the first time i heard that players were really happy with the ladder map pool since it finally features tournament-viable maps (beforehand a often heard complaint was, that laddering wasn't good practice but a waste of time because of maps). On the other hand, that's the last time until HotS that Blizzard made changes to the map pool for almost an entire year.
Basically every time Blizzard introduced new maps of their own, i would sit in TeamSpeak and talk with clanmates or mappers and we were appalled by what they threw in for ladder play. Usually it was one decent map, and three terrible ones. Players were talking which maps they had to veto the most badly (not enough vetos to get rid of all the bad ones) and mappers were shaking their hads in disbelief: Why does Blizzard include these simple-minded maps that have serious problems gameplay wise which even we could already recognize by simply looking at them? I can remember that iNcontroL said something along the lines of "They look like on of their trainees made them within an hour and just smudged something together." on SotG. This is not about Klontas or Zerus Prime (which are not as bad as in the past, but considering what we could have instead, they're not good), this is about Nerazim Crypt, Searing Crater, Abyssal Caverns, Arid Plateau, Slag Pits, Backwater Gulch and Typhon Peaks.
Way to forget Condemned Ridge... Also what was wrong with Typhon Peaks?
This kind of biased talk is kinda what i hate about the map community because it just paints the picture that Blizzard can't do anything and the community can't do anything wrong.
This is NOT the case!!!
As you said GSL featured maps like Metropolis and Calm before the storm... Those are maps with a balance that would make Steppes of war seems like a reasonable map.
Metropolis... i hate talking about this map because everything wrong about it seems so obvious. We knew that Metalopolis was a Zerg favored map outside of close Spawn, Blizzard told us that. What do you do then? You take all the features of it, scale up the Zerg favored features and make sure to remove the part that they hate... and what do you get? 57-65% ZvT Winrate, that is what you get. I havn't even mentioned all the lag and how caused all sorts of issues.
The thing is WE as a community voted that POS into the ladder and proven once and for all why we can't be put in charge of selecting the ladder maps. Pros were warning us, that it caused very stale games and seemingly tanked their gamer rigs, but nope we were like "Oh Shiny!". And for a very long time even after it was removed i saw people asking when it would be back...
GSL have also had other map disasters to its name that luckily never got to see the light of broad tournement use. I could mention Xelnaga fortress for example, proving you don't infact fix a terran favored center by removing the tower... turns out they can replace it, who knew...
Both the map community and Blizzard have come a long way really. We have all had mistakes to learn from.
I don't think we need to be at war with blizzard and their map crew, who do a workable job with the limited time they have. We don't need to be at war with anyone; we should encourage any and all segments of the community to promote map rotation and sourcing maps from all mapmakers. We could only ever change blizzard's behavior by creating a strong community-wide voice, never by acting petulant.
Anyway, it's certainly just a fact that for every blizzard ladder map there are at least a few maps here that are simply better version of the same concept. And there are better concepts here too. This doesn't mean every blizzard map was bad. It does mean that at every point in time since the game was released, a more proactive approach to map rotation could have delivered community maps at least as good as (typically better than) any duds you'd care to pull out, creating fresh excitement and invigorating the metagame. And probably more importantly, instilling a culture of brisk map rotation that newbs who never saw competitive BW don't automatically expect or understand the value of, especially in an age dominated by tawdry production line excuses of content known as DLC that rarely ever live up to the promise of the golden phrase "new maps".
No I asked what WAS wrong with typhon peaks. With todays map conventions, it would be easy to pick the map apart but considering it was released back in season 2 it seems it managed to dodge a lot of issues other 4 player maps tended to have at the time. No close spawns worth of notice, a 3th that was ... well defendable and not blocked by rocks.
Also the article above forgets Xel'naga caverns which for the longest time was one of the most liked Blizzard maps, until terrans started to figure it out.
While that may be a fact, it is however not a fact that simply taking in community maps have been the easy solution for Blizzard. Pretty much every second community map have caused them issues. Taldarim altar have both ranked as one the maps with a 60%+ favor for Zerg aswell aswell as being the most vetoed map at some point. Korhal compound had some serious imbalance aswell which was what got it kicked out. Ohana had to be adjusted and waited a season for its implement due to lag issues. And of course I already talked about Metropolis.
If there is one thing mappers are terrible at it is to mind their limits. All ladder maps must run smoothly even on machines just fulfilling the lowest requirements for SC2. It proves nothing to be able to run on the gamer rigs at tournaments.
Also keep in mind that Blizzards map team is payed employees. Blizzard can't just have them sit around.
Xen'naga caverns... one of my fav maps from SC2. Nice compact map with tactical elements. Definitely favoured one base play though. If someone good at mapping makes this I will be happy.
On June 04 2013 19:41 meatpudding wrote: Xen'naga caverns... one of my fav maps from SC2. Nice compact map with tactical elements. Definitely favoured one base play though. If someone good at mapping makes this I will be happy.
this is a remake, isn't it? does look quite different from the original iirc.
@Sumadin: It's not about Blizzard doing everything wrong and the community doing everything right. It's about Blizzard making obvious mistakes long after they have been figured out time and time again. The premise was that i didn't go into detail with the first batch of maps. Yes, XNC was a decent map for the time, until T went for macro-oriented play. But now think of Detla, Steppes, Lost Temple, ... Call it a period of mercy where everyone didn't know to tell right from wrong, and that's why i skipped them altogether.
As you said GSL featured maps like Metropolis and Calm before the storm... Those are maps with a balance that would make Steppes of war seems like a reasonable map.
Really? At the time you couldn't already tell that Metropolis (unlike Meta, it allowed T/P to take a quick natural just as Z, which is a huge difference!) or Calm would turn out to favor certain matchups, it took many games to figure that out. On maps like Slag Pits, Typhoon Peaks and Backwater Gulch you could immediatly see what's wrong: Too small, no way to wall off the natural and FE beyond reach for T/P, impossible/very hard 3rds, close spawns. Typhoon Peaks featured walled off corridors nat-nat when both players spawned on the same side, which allowed for very brutal pushes in TvZ, and we already knew this from the first version of Shakuras Plateau. It was too narrow most of the time, Zerg could easily get up to three bases, while P/T had trouble even taking their natural.
Tal'Darim Altar was one of the maps that stayed in the pool for the longest - because all race were fine playing it until Zerg figured it out after ~ a year. Overall it has very decent stats nonetheless. There are very few maps that can claim that for themselves AND have seen incredible amounts of playtime.
On one point we agree though: overloading maps to a degree that they affect gameplay/performance.
On June 04 2013 19:13 Sumadin wrote: No I asked what WAS wrong with typhon peaks. With todays map conventions, it would be easy to pick the map apart but considering it was released back in season 2 it seems it managed to dodge a lot of issues other 4 player maps tended to have at the time. No close spawns worth of notice, a 3th that was ... well defendable and not blocked by rocks.
Well the natural was a nightmare in an era when it was abundantly clear that an open natural was not a recipe for skillful standard play. Yes it had a relatively appropriate 3rd base, but that also had its problems, most prominently that it was towards the middle of the map and the opponent. The rocks don't do much against a 2 base push that get to come with a short reinforce once they're broken. And it's also cliffable. Overall very vulnerable, and just not a very good way to put together a 4 player map. But I guess you could say they were trying the concept of a "forward 3rd" 4 player map. But in that case, why wouldn't you make everything else as standard as possible to highlight the concept in question. And why the hell would you connect the vertical naturals with rocks.
On June 03 2013 11:11 spinnaker wrote: I fail to see the point in this challenge. Every player I know already think that Blizzard's maps are bad for the most part and the good stuff comes from the community and Korean/GSL mappers. I prefer to make my own maps instead of fixing Blizzard's.
First thing, Akilon is one of the best maps on ladder right now, if not the best, and this is according to many people I talk to, and while you do say "for the most part", people tend to forget that not only "bad" maps come out of Blizzard.
About the "bad" maps, basically people just like to hate on Blizzard because its easy, but overall their maps use to be meant to shake up the metagame, maps like Klontas Mire, Entombed Valley and Korhal City are really different than the standard, which most people don't like, but is the best way to make the game more interesting. In fact the only reason the game got so stale in the later stages of WoL is because people stopped Blizzard from changing the metagame with maps because every new map that wasn't exactly like Daybreak got flamed and called "another bad Blizzard map". Of course Blizzard made some actual bad maps and kept them in the map pool for too long, but its not as horrible as people make it to be.
When talking about Blizzard maps people like to talk of maps from the beta or early WoL as examples, which at least for me sounds very silly as you have to remember no one knew anything about the game at the time, and they just toyed around to see what the players like and what makes the game the best, which eventually turned out to be bigger maps with easy naturals, although it was impossible to know that from the start. Another thing to notice is that many people praise Icarus while looking down at Klontas Mire, which is funny because the maps are very similar, this just shows how much people are biased against Blizzard.
I'm sorry, what? I thought it was universally agreed that akilon is a heavily protoss favored map.
Yeah, Shakuras Plateau and Entombed Valley are two of the best maps ever made although they both had to be altered before they were balanced. I need more time with it, but Derelict Watcher seems pretty cool too.
I think the reason people think Akilon Wastes is pretty good is because most tend to overlook PvT when discussing balance. The map makes it easy for Terran to drop their opponent, difficult for Protoss to defend, and nearly impossible for Protoss to use proxy pylon counter attacks. TLPD currently has Protoss at 43%. I suspect those numbers understate the problem as a lot of Protoss are probably 1 or 2 base all-inning on it. http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/hots/maps/558_Akilon_Wastes
But I don't get why you're defending Klontas Mire.
How is this:
Anything like this:
?
Or did you mean to say some other map?
User was warned for this post I was under the impression that akilon was universally considered protoss favored. Hence why in Proleague you see protoss on it in the majority of games
There is a lot going on so it is hard to see. You can tell what is going on via the map analyzer picture: http://imgur.com/9ZKb6
Although I think it is better than metalopolis was it is not up to scratch with todays balance. Also it contains a "novelty" feature that I've never seen in a competitive map. The centre area is littered with vision blockers.
Other than that, the main/nat set up is the same but the centre has been stretched out, the gold bases have been rotated, blocked with rocks and are vulnerable to ground. I would also make it forced cross positions.
It would still be a novelty map though not a serious competitive map. I don't know if that goes against the spirit of this competition or not. If so I will not submit it.
There is a lot going on so it is hard to see. You can tell what is going on via the map analyzer picture: http://imgur.com/9ZKb6
Although I think it is better than metalopolis was it is not up to scratch with todays balance. Also it contains a "novelty" feature that I've never seen in a competitive map. The centre area is littered with vision blockers.
Other than that, the main/nat set up is the same but the centre has been stretched out, the gold bases have been rotated, blocked with rocks and are vulnerable to ground. I would also make it forced cross positions.
It would still be a novelty map though not a serious competitive map. I don't know if that goes against the spirit of this competition or not. If so I will not submit it.
The map as it stands is absolutely a legitimate entry if you want it to be. But as you say, it's not really a useful improvement given what are standard requirements in maps today. If you had no close spawns, it would be a passable map with a big problem of a natural much more exposed than is considered viable now, and the gameplay would be pretty stale, but not really bad in any way. The point of the contest is to show maps that are better than the original. I think this one accomplishes that, so go for it.
If you can think of a way to include close spawns, even better. If not, still compares favorably.
The low ground middle fills up with lava after 12 minutes. This time can be adjusted easily. There is a timer that reminds the player when the lava will rise. There is also an auditory warning when it is about to flood. Any units trapped down there at that time will die.
Such a nice idea! but i'm not sure if i'll be able to participate since my finals are coming :/ but props to the mapmaker's that decides to refurbish Elysium, Incineration Zone, Slag Pits, Nerazim Crypt, Worldship, Abyssal Caverns, Agria Valley, Jungle Basin, Junk Yard or New Antioch, god so many awful maps to choose from :s
Xen'naga caverns... one of my fav maps from SC2. Nice compact map with tactical elements. Definitely favoured one base play though. If someone good at mapping makes this I will be happy.
this is a remake, isn't it? does look quite different from the original iirc.
I literally took the original map, upped the bounds and added mains behind the original mains. So the original mains are the natural and the original nat is the third. The gold has moved to where the original third was. And the side bases are more spaced uot.
On June 05 2013 03:05 FlyingBeer wrote: And meatpudding, thanks for saying I'm no good at mapping. ;-)
Haha that's not what I was saying. When I saw your post I had the idea to make it that way. Was saying it would be cool for someone to implement that design specifically. More remakes!
On June 03 2013 17:49 _BAR_ wrote: I think Blizzard has made some great maps, but we also got to consider that they have made some awful ones. Personally I loved Shakuras but do you remember scrap station? Sure it was entertaining to watch games on it and you had to completely think differently on that map cause every air rush was a proxy air rush (imagine that with oracles now) but it always felt to me like Blizzard was just trying to mess with my head on that map. Fun? Absolutely. Good? Let's not jump to conclusions. And Klontas? That map is just awful (imo).
However if we look at Newkirk City to Newkirk Redevelopment Precinct, someone gave Blizzard's map a little bit of love and all of a sudden an awful map becomes passable. I hope that people can give the maps the love they need. Extra points if you can fix Scrap Station or Klontas and make either one a decent map but I am not setting my hopes too high on that.
You love Shakuras but think Newkirk was Awful? I call that a contradiction. Their layout is extremely similar and their gameplay is like vise. But I guess the more mirror focused play was more accepted in WOL.
Also Newkirk Redevelopment Precinct strikes me as a map remake gone wrong. Mainly because the remake completely changes the overall strategy for the map. "Vanilla" Newkirk like Shakuras was a map that promoted the head-on engagement. It causes a lot of mirrored split map but it also means the players have to be honest with their army composition. Sure it is different but I do think it is that difference in promoted map strategies that could help differentiate maps in the future, if people are willing to accept it. This aren't cloud kingdom with infinite pathways around the terran mech army. You WILL face that mech head-on and you will LOVE it. What are you doing with 90 Zerglings? Get some meat get some Ultras.
On top of that the rock towers on the forward base wasn't moved meaning they are actually completely terrible now and really those rock tower are more likely to be taken down by an opponent raiding the base than the player expanding to that position. Rushed work without much thought is what I see when I look at this remake.
I don't think that it is a contradiction. Shakuras left room for sneaky movement of ground forces about the map. Not as easy as it would be on Redevelopment Precinct but take out some rocks and all of a sudden you are getting backdoored constantly. It was an unexpected move but horrible when you got caught out of position. Additionally the XNTs were incredibly important on Shakuras as they are on Redevelopment Precinct. Those towers were and are critical to maintain so a player could see sneaky and unexpected movement.
However to be sneaky on Newkirk you pretty much need dropships which is really annoying for anyone who isn't Terran. Besides it is unexpected to get dropped by Toss or Zerg anyways no matter what map it is. On Newkirk there are no unexpected ground movement paths and if you control the center who cares if you are using the XNT anyways. Having 1 unit purely being in that position pretty much gathers the same intel even if it is 2 seconds later then what the XNT would have told you.
Pretty much I like having those sneaky ground movements and critical XNTs and I feel that Shakuras and Redevelopment Precinct delivered that where as Newkirk gives me neither. Newkirk does have critical positions but the XNT is really just there to be pretty. The ground path below the XNT on Redevelopment just leads to a much more critical XNT.
Also what is wrong with having bases that are disadvantaged by rocks? I think that's an interesting idea and it makes for some bases that will have some pretty critical battles fought over them. In an ultra late game scenario holding an extremely difficult base with such powerful armies makes for a really great back and forth battle and the game becomes nail biting.
Cool. Been working on this map and actually turned out to be a pretty good idea. I like the idea of reviving some of the classic SC2 maps, and I know some others are doing Xel'Nage Caverns so here's my take on it.
Excavation Site (Xel'Naga Caverns)
original playable: 124 x 124 new playable: 156 x 124
Features
Small mains
Destructible Rocks
Destructible Rocks
Extra base added to take as natural
Annoying pathable ledges behind your mineral line
If you bust some rocks you can go main to main using the hallways, avoiding both towers
I went through the Blizzard maps that are in the "Custom Games" section of Battle.net and came up with several that I am considering for modification. I figured I'd post them here to help other people with ideas.
I tried to pick maps that had some interesting mechanic/gimmick that could be executed much more cleanly, as well as maps that were pretty good but could have been better.
On June 11 2013 04:09 EatThePath wrote: ^Holy crap, was GSL Terminus RE a remake of Blizzard's Terminus???
Yep this thread is hardly a new concept really.
Hmm and this one is kinda intresting. As some of you know, Terminus used to be the most used 4-player maps out there. There was several attempts to make the setup of 3 easy bases work right.
With our added knowledge of balance today and the addition of collabsable rock towers this could be an intresting revisit. Kinda sad it never got on ladder but Metropolis took the spot the one time it had the chance.
On June 11 2013 04:09 EatThePath wrote: ^Holy crap, was GSL Terminus RE a remake of Blizzard's Terminus???
Yep this thread is hardly a new concept really.
Hmm and this one is kinda intresting. As some of you know, Terminus used to be the most used 4-player maps out there. There was several attempts to make the setup of 3 easy bases work right.
With our added knowledge of balance today and the addition of collabsable rock towers this could be an intresting revisit. Kinda sad it never got on ladder but Metropolis took the spot the one time it had the chance.
It was only used because nearly everything else was garbage and because of the overcompensation at the time to deliver macro games. I'm sure there are plenty of 3 base designs to be discovered but Terminus RE in and of itself is not something I want to hear from again.
Based on Steppes of War Playable bounds: 140x140 (increased from 124x124)
I created this quite a while ago, but it fits the theme. I know the 3/4 bases aren't "blizzard approved" but I don't know if I'll have the time to figure out a good way to change them - if I do, I'll post an update.
Based on Steppes of War Playable bounds: 140x140 (increased from 124x124)
I created this quite a while ago, but it fits the theme. I know the 3/4 bases aren't "blizzard approved" but I don't know if I'll have the time to figure out a good way to change them - if I do, I'll post an update.
Based on Steppes of War Playable bounds: 140x140 (increased from 124x124)
I created this quite a while ago, but it fits the theme. I know the 3/4 bases aren't "blizzard approved" but I don't know if I'll have the time to figure out a good way to change them - if I do, I'll post an update.
After tinkering with the idea to use Strangewood-symmetry i decided to have no golds, extra bases and keep rotational symmetry. Also I wanted to do a map that is as solid as Whirlwind, but allows more aggressive and creative plays - it should be a remake of Backwater Gulch basically so it really needs that aspect. No gimmicks, straight forward but more than macro only.
One of the main issues with Backwater's design is the overall size combined with a central forward choke/nat ramp - which decreases the actual rush distance. I decided to keep the nat and ramp setup, but took away the rocks (which are there for close distances basically) - this was possible by my design for the double thirds which do not connect directly, but via the highround. If you look at frost you understand the concept easily: make all paths go through center to increase rush distance. Yet i do not like the idea of outside routes too detached from other paths, so i came up with that idea of highround pods that should create some interesting decision making and possibly army splitting.
I was not interested to create a specific design or add all kind of tech details to enhance blizzards visual design. On the contrary I tried to make it super simple and took a graphical approach by switching a few textures to make levels stand out more and increase contrast.
If I had more time i would add some yellow cranes.
I have been gone for a few days, so seeing all these submissions is making me quite happy. Yet, since this challenge is mostly for fun and nothing important like TLMC, I'd be willing to do a time extension if need be. Thus, for those who haven't found time to do a second map, or make one at all, I can easily extend the deadline by a week. No matter the due date though, the point will still get across, and the more submissions the stronger the point and the more fun. Thank you to all that have submitted already, and if you haven't, give it a try. I even have a few ideas in the works. Though, if all who were interested have already submitted what they can, I don't want to keep the voting phase on waiting.
If vote is in favor of extension by Sunday 11:59pm KST, then ill extend the deadline until Monday, June 24th at 11:59pm KST, which is an extra week. glhf!
Vote was in favor of a time extension: 14 to 3.
EDIT: accidentally hit post instead of preview >.<
Personally I'd like one just because I won't have much of a chance to work on it this weekend, but whatevs it's just for fun and I'd post it later anyway.
Join2 Kulas by chuky 전되 쿨라스 Fine tuning of Kulas Ravine size 162x148 (original 140x136)
I've fixed the small bridge so it works like a ramp. Now 1 forcefield blocks the path, wall-ins are the same as a ramp (or close), you can't warp in the bridge and it even blocks the vision when you're in the middle.
Mutas are stronger in HOTS so I've kept the shortcut with rocks from the original map so you can go from the 3rd to the main and defend more easily against them.
I've left the 2-part-choke of the orginal map and turn that into 2 ramps so you can place a building forward so it's easier to defend against things like roach baneling allins.
I've left the high ground behind the natural of Kulas Ravine but I opened it wide so you can now defend fast with all races. Room behind the natural helps defending against air harass.
It is now a 2 player map because Kulas Ravine was too big and I believe it was originally planned to be a 2 player map because of the different styles of the bottom left base compared to the other ones.
It took me a while to see that it was Kulas, but it's definitely there. The double rocked in-base structure was made low ground instead of high ground and a little less severely in-base. There is still high ground overlooking the third but now there is a ramp up to it, the four spawn has been replaced with two so you no longer have a double base in the alternate corners, it's a single base. The one design thing that I think separates it pretty significantly from Kulas is the lack of a path through the middle, and I would encourage you to put that back in. The aesthetic changes are also pretty significant, but that seems fine as well.
On June 16 2013 09:49 RFDaemoniac wrote: It took me a while to see that it was Kulas, but it's definitely there. The double rocked in-base structure was made low ground instead of high ground and a little less severely in-base. There is still high ground overlooking the third but now there is a ramp up to it, the four spawn has been replaced with two so you no longer have a double base in the alternate corners, it's a single base. The one design thing that I think separates it pretty significantly from Kulas is the lack of a path through the middle, and I would encourage you to put that back in. The aesthetic changes are also pretty significant, but that seems fine as well.
I can see similarities, but Kulas Ravine is a 4p map. Chuky's is a 2p map. Thus, I would have to say it differs too much from the original just because of that.
What is the significant difference between making a 4 that is cross spawn only into a 2p map? And we've already accepted a submission that takes a 4p that wasn't cross spawn only and made it so (which is totally reasonable). So where's the line in doing both of these things? For example, I think Siskos' remake of Antiga shipyard is pretty great and totally qualifies for this, even though he switched it from a 4p cross only to a 2p.
The vote is in favor of a time extension. Thus, everyone will have an extra week. The final deadline is Monday, June 24th at 11:59pm KST.
After, I will open up the voting phase. A public poll will be created for each entry with a side by side comparison to the original. There will be two polls, one for aesthetics and one for gameplay. Each poll will have the following options: Better, About the Same, Worse, Too different from the Blizzard original.
I'll allow the voting phase to last for 5 days, which should be enough time to get the word out on reddit, twitter, etc. glhf!
On June 16 2013 14:36 RFDaemoniac wrote: What is the significant difference between making a 4 that is cross spawn only into a 2p map? And we've already accepted a submission that takes a 4p that wasn't cross spawn only and made it so (which is totally reasonable). So where's the line in doing both of these things? For example, I think Siskos' remake of Antiga shipyard is pretty great and totally qualifies for this, even though he switched it from a 4p cross only to a 2p.
I formally submit this one by the way if I still can.
The most notable new feature is the change to the gold base, which is now a double-sided mineral wall. With the changes in terrain, this allows the gold to still be easily harassable. Also, in the event of taking the low ground third, you can begin mining the gold minerals if your opponent starts harassing via the high ground ledge. And once the minerals are mined out, an additional path across the map opens, where notably the original map has only 3 real paths across the map.
I started working on this but didn't have enough time to really get the aesthetics done; I'm just going to post what I have. The texturing is pretty much done, but sadly I didn't have enough time to do as much doodading as I would have liked, and I'm not going to have any more time in the next week. Here's the map!
This was an interesting one to work with, what with the highground ridge in the center and low-ground mains. I've lifted the mains one level, added a central path through the highground and adjusted the base layout.
I'd say yes it's valid since the point of the contest is to modify Blizzard maps to make them viable. Taking maps that are already good and moving things by a few pixels would make no sense. Also I don't see any reason to limit your creativity considering what we have on the ladder at the moment. Korhal Sky Island is a perfect demonstration the so called ladder rules don't exist, only in the mapping community's mind. Old maps (like Kulas Ravine) also had reduced expansions so go ahead and unleash your creativity !
I would say no, because the original is not a melee map. The purpose is to show the public that community melee mapmakers are just as good, if not better, than blizzard melee mapmakers. Turning campaign map into a melee map does not demonstrate that point.
Somehow knew that chuky and timetwister would respond first with opposite opinions >< I say no because campaign maps have features that were tailored to a specific scenario and were therefore not designed for multiplayer use. Also, most people don't know what the maps actually look like, they aren't symmetrical, and they often have few bases and tons of 'dead space'. Converting one of these maps to melee would make it completely different.
If your map improves on the original without being too different it shows that you are good enough at mapmaking to make a blizzard map better, which is sort of the point of this challenge.
On June 19 2013 00:50 chuky500 wrote: I'd say yes it's valid since the point of the contest is to modify Blizzard maps to make them viable. Taking maps that are already good and moving things by a few pixels would make no sense. Also I don't see any reason to limit your creativity considering what we have on the ladder at the moment. Korhal Sky Island is a perfect demonstration the so called ladder rules don't exist, only in the mapping community's mind. Old maps (like Kulas Ravine) also had reduced expansions so go ahead and unleash your creativity !
Kulas Ravine and Sky Island do not have any other resource nodes than 8m2g and 6hm2g as far as I know.
On June 19 2013 00:57 Timetwister22 wrote: I would say no, because the original is not a melee map. The purpose is to show the public that community melee mapmakers are just as good, if not better, than blizzard melee mapmakers. Turning campaign map into a melee map does not demonstrate that point.
The public already knows this.
The point is that the community mapmakers make maps for platinum and above and Blizzard has to consider the lowest depths of bronze when they make their maps and have to make concessions.
Another point is that Blizzard, unlike the protoss playing part of the mapmaking community also likes a modicum of variety in their maps and actually thinks it's good for the spectator value of this sport if we don't see FFE every single PvZ.
On June 19 2013 00:50 chuky500 wrote: I'd say yes it's valid since the point of the contest is to modify Blizzard maps to make them viable. Taking maps that are already good and moving things by a few pixels would make no sense. Also I don't see any reason to limit your creativity considering what we have on the ladder at the moment. Korhal Sky Island is a perfect demonstration the so called ladder rules don't exist, only in the mapping community's mind. Old maps (like Kulas Ravine) also had reduced expansions so go ahead and unleash your creativity !
Kulas Ravine and Sky Island do not have any other resource nodes than 8m2g and 6hm2g as far as I know.
The backdoor bases on Kulas Ravine each have 7 minerals - also, the old 3v3 map Arakan Citadel has 2 min only gold bases with 7 minerals each.
Korhal Sky Island has custom 2x2 debris with 400 hp instead of 2000. It was forbidden by the TLMC but not by Blizzard since they've put it on the ladder.
there is a backdoor to the nat which is not that far away for comitted attacks
there is a very harassable third that is easily accessed from all four directions, the other third added in the position of the main backdoor is even more open for straight forward attacks.
the tower does not provide vision for units without air support
with all rocks taken down five or even four bases are not so easily kept
LoSBs in the long end of the main for drops
big main cliffs beiing walkable almost everywhere, big main invites drops, sneaky pylon, nydus, etc
What was especially strong in Blistering Sand's concept is the main backdoor. Consequently build-up was slow and you would never transfer easily into a macro game, because you just had to provide defense. Hence games developed slower and played out more aggressively than on other maps. I did not want to keep the main backdoor (which was pretty much the shortest path) to direct these attacks along this one axis, but i wanted to keep the idea of strong aggressive openings and timing attacks. In midgame we can expect constant denial of fourths or even thirds.
I really think blistering sands remakes should have a backdoor. Otherwise what's the point, the rest of the layout on that map is just bad too and you have to do so much just to make it playable.
On June 21 2013 14:17 EatThePath wrote: I really think blistering sands remakes should have a backdoor. Otherwise what's the point, the rest of the layout on that map is just bad too and you have to do so much just to make it playable.
i think one should consider how a map plays like. not what the layout looks like.
i did not provide the concept explanation in my post yesterday, but here it is.
Features - there is a backdoor to the nat which is not that far away for comitted attacks - there is a very harassable third that is easily accessed from all four directions, the other third added in the position of the main backdoor is even more open for straight forward attacks. - the tower does not provide vision for units without air support - with all rocks taken down five or even four bases are not so easily kept - LoSBs in the long end of the main for drops - big main cliffs beiing walkable almost everywhere, big main invites drops, sneaky pylon, nydus, etc
Concept What was especially strong in Blistering Sand's concept is the main backdoor. Consequently build-up was slow and you would never transfer easily into a macro game, because you just had to provide defense. Hence games developed slower and played out more aggressively than on other maps. I did not want to keep the main backdoor (which was pretty much the shortest path) to direct these attacks along this one axis, but i wanted to keep the idea of strong aggressive openings and timing attacks. In midgame we can expect constant denial of fourths or even thirds.
Answer to all the people who think that map is not valid in this contest: you do not have to vote for it, but i think the map plays out closely enough in the style of blistering without being a remake. The contest asks for better than blizzard, not remake and balance their maps. Hence i took the strong early to mid game as a guideline and transformed the map as i thought it is needed. I don't care too much in case the map is disqualified ^^ but it would be a pitty because i am quite sure it provides similar games within hots gameplay and an overall more grown up game.
edit: Semmo brought this up: take main hugging third and never move + win. This is pretty much why you will have aaggression. You cannot let the other player have the third so easily and the distance is short enough to be able to attack/disturb that base long enough. Maybe i should add a blizzard style rock (;
That's why I think it's better to just judge the maps and not have a poll with redundant choices. A map can be both great and a bit different but people can only pick one choice. If you think some maps aren't following the guideline then just vote it's bad, adding redundant choice is pointless and will only reward bland maps with almost no changes. The point of this contest is to take bad maps and turn them into good maps, not about picking good maps and tweaking them just a bit.
If the poll makes you choose between good and too different why not add choices like "too similar" or "corresponds to a metagame from 2 years ago". The contest is about judging maps there's no need to add side questions within the same poll.
Just a reminder, submissions close in 12 hours from now. Those posted after will not be accepted. I will start the voting phase sometime early this week.
There needs to be a requirement to actually play the maps before you can vote for them. How a map looks on 'paper,' and how it plays/feels can vary a lot.
The back door to the main has two rocks stacked, but slightly offset so that you can see both of them.
Edit: Included necessary submission info.
Edit 2: Some more info on my thoughts behind the changes.
I wanted the uphill to be important when moving out, in order to allow a contain, but not important when defending. Defending on the low ground feels terrible, even without a real high ground mechanic. I therefore pushed the highground a little farther away from the natural.
This made the middle ground area quite small, so I found an area where I could make it bigger, by bringing it over the corner of the main.
I decided to keep the two entrance main instead of converting it to a standard ramp down/9 choke because I like seeing aggressive games. I put rocks at the natural to help you wall and the pit in the natural helps create some interesting army movement for the attacker.
I gave the back door two rocks instead of one in order to mitigate things like hydra pushes against air toss. While the main entrance is wall able with only 2 buildings, it might be slightly too big to stop early pushes in TvP from both sides, in which case I'd make it smaller and put flat rocks on it.
There are multiple choices for a third. The two on the high ground are harassable, but the one in the corner is a little more choked, making it easier to defend for protoss or a mech terran. However, as a trade off for being more choked it is farther from your main/natural, forcing you to split your army well.
The backdoor third isn't particularly interesting except for its proximity to the gold base. I wanted to encourage players to be able to expand in either direction. I also wanted it to be possible for each player to hold a gold base, perhaps at the sacrifice of easy map control. The watch towers help make the counter-clockwise gold base takable, as well as encouraging air units to move through the middle where they have to pay attention to what's underneath them.
On June 21 2013 16:38 Samro225am wrote: i think one should consider how a map plays like. not what the layout looks like.
i did not provide the concept explanation in my post yesterday, but here it is.
Features - there is a backdoor to the nat which is not that far away for comitted attacks - there is a very harassable third that is easily accessed from all four directions, the other third added in the position of the main backdoor is even more open for straight forward attacks. - the tower does not provide vision for units without air support - with all rocks taken down five or even four bases are not so easily kept - LoSBs in the long end of the main for drops - big main cliffs beiing walkable almost everywhere, big main invites drops, sneaky pylon, nydus, etc
Concept What was especially strong in Blistering Sand's concept is the main backdoor. Consequently build-up was slow and you would never transfer easily into a macro game, because you just had to provide defense. Hence games developed slower and played out more aggressively than on other maps. I did not want to keep the main backdoor (which was pretty much the shortest path) to direct these attacks along this one axis, but i wanted to keep the idea of strong aggressive openings and timing attacks. In midgame we can expect constant denial of fourths or even thirds.
Answer to all the people who think that map is not valid in this contest: you do not have to vote for it, but i think the map plays out closely enough in the style of blistering without being a remake. The contest asks for better than blizzard, not remake and balance their maps. Hence i took the strong early to mid game as a guideline and transformed the map as i thought it is needed. I don't care too much in case the map is disqualified ^^ but it would be a pitty because i am quite sure it provides similar games within hots gameplay and an overall more grown up game.
edit: Semmo brought this up: take main hugging third and never move + win. This is pretty much why you will have aaggression. You cannot let the other player have the third so easily and the distance is short enough to be able to attack/disturb that base long enough. Maybe i should add a blizzard style rock (;
Your map is one of my favorites partly because it's well done, but also because you took the time to write this up. I was hoping to read more of the different map designers' insights into how they thought it best to improve on a map's design, but most are just being thrown up with very little comment.
.Looking through some of these submission threads, many are missing important info that will be needed as per the rules. I will include things such as original map size and pic vs the new size and pic for voting. If you don't include all your info in your threads, I will not hunt you down to find such info. I'll just simply not include your map in the voting.
So i always felt that island maps was missing in SC2 so since i noticed Blizzard had made one i figured i could improve it to the standards of todays meta game. I might have gone a tad overboard through, but this is my first complete SC2 map. I have done a ton of map analysis through and from that i determened a few conditions required for a balanced Island map.
1. Must be 4 player 2. Must be huge 3. Must have 2 bases in main 4. Ideally Mirrored symmentry.
The 3 first of those conditions is accomplished with this remake through changing it to mirrored Symmentry would probably alter too much for this competitions conditions.
As this is my first map through, it is very simple in terms of terrain and also very light on doodads.
To get an idea of the size here is a comparisson with metalopolis. Remember, close spawns are disabled but I included it anyway to get an idea of size.
close spawn -Bel'Shir swamp: 121.4 -metalopolis: 107.7 -difference: +12%
close air: -Bel'Shir swamp: 148.3 -metalopolis: 135.5 -difference: +9%
I hope you like it. It was the first map I ever made. I touched it up a bit for this competition though. Including making the outside prettier, changing the water colours to match better, flattening the terrain more and fixing the pathing problems in the mains.
EDIT: Uploaded as Bel'Shir swamp on the NA and EU region for those wanting to try it
On June 24 2013 19:15 Timetwister22 wrote: .Looking through some of these submission threads, many are missing important info that will be needed as per the rules. I will include things such as original map size and pic vs the new size and pic for voting. If you don't include all your info in your threads, I will not hunt you down to find such info. I'll just simply not include your map in the voting.
Well, I don't know what the original size of some Blizzard maps is.
On June 24 2013 19:15 Timetwister22 wrote: .Looking through some of these submission threads, many are missing important info that will be needed as per the rules. I will include things such as original map size and pic vs the new size and pic for voting. If you don't include all your info in your threads, I will not hunt you down to find such info. I'll just simply not include your map in the voting.
Well, I don't know what the original size of some Blizzard maps is.
You should be able to open their maps in the editor, all you have to do is log in through the editor. When going to open a map, look under Battle.Net. This is also the best way to quickly browse their catalog of maps when you're looking to create one.
Here's an intermission before the polls are made : if you open Daybreak LE and go to the import module, you'll see they forgot to remove the GSL loading screen. Same thing for Worldwind, Belshir Vestige, Newkirk, Neo Planet S, Korhal Sky Island. 3 to 4 Mbs of useless data each time.
But then again, these guys also forgot to actually remove the immortal warpin ability, they just removed it from the command card. You could still transmit abilities from the alpha over the command stream in the early days of WoL, people made exploits to warp in immortals, phase shift with templar, use all the retardedly overpowered removed abilities from the mothership.
On June 25 2013 07:05 SiskosGoatee wrote: A bit sloppy, yeah.
But then again, these guys also forgot to actually remove the immortal warpin ability, they just removed it from the command card. You could still transmit abilities from the alpha over the command stream in the early days of WoL, people made exploits to warp in immortals, phase shift with templar, use all the retardedly overpowered removed abilities from the mothership.
This is true but then again with the phase shift templars you can use the overpowered immortals with the warp gate to get the hardened shields to successfully feedback the command stream. Without Blizzard giving us the Command stream we wouldn't be able to actually get into the data editor to remove the abilities such as Hardened Shields and Phase Shift (aka Blink).
Remember, they might be sloppy but without their sloppiness you wouldn't get the possibility to accommodate the command stream information systems. This leads me to believe that Blizzard took the data from the command stream and used limiting functions to delegate certain abilities to be able to launch without the need of the command stream. By allowing those abilities to launch without confirmation means that we, the map makers, can check the phase shifting hardened shields immortals to balance them.
Remember, on Skype we all had this conversation before and I'm pretty sure it was Timetwister that falsely identified the function to allow data to infiltrate the command stream. (Typical ESV, so noob) Luckily Sigma had a dream forge in that excellent brain of his to solve the equations limiting the phase shifting immortals.
With that said,
Good job Sigma, for shame Timetwister & Good luck to all participates!
On June 25 2013 07:05 SiskosGoatee wrote: A bit sloppy, yeah.
But then again, these guys also forgot to actually remove the immortal warpin ability, they just removed it from the command card. You could still transmit abilities from the alpha over the command stream in the early days of WoL, people made exploits to warp in immortals, phase shift with templar, use all the retardedly overpowered removed abilities from the mothership.
This is true but then again with the phase shift templars you can use the overpowered immortals with the warp gate to get the hardened shields to successfully feedback the command stream. Without Blizzard giving us the Command stream we wouldn't be able to actually get into the data editor to remove the abilities such as Hardened Shields and Phase Shift (aka Blink).
Remember, they might be sloppy but without their sloppiness you wouldn't get the possibility to accommodate the command stream information systems. This leads me to believe that Blizzard took the data from the command stream and used limiting functions to delegate certain abilities to be able to launch without the need of the command stream. By allowing those abilities to launch without confirmation means that we, the map makers, can check the phase shifting hardened shields immortals to balance them.
Remember, on Skype we all had this conversation before and I'm pretty sure it was Timetwister that falsely identified the function to allow data to infiltrate the command stream. (Typical ESV, so noob) Luckily Sigma had a dream forge in that excellent brain of his to solve the equations limiting the phase shifting immortals.
With that said,
Good job Sigma, for shame Timetwister & Good luck to all participates!
Whaaaaaaaaaaat are you talking about?
Is this some attempt to troll or set me up by purposefully saying completely meaningless things?
On June 25 2013 07:05 SiskosGoatee wrote: A bit sloppy, yeah.
But then again, these guys also forgot to actually remove the immortal warpin ability, they just removed it from the command card. You could still transmit abilities from the alpha over the command stream in the early days of WoL, people made exploits to warp in immortals, phase shift with templar, use all the retardedly overpowered removed abilities from the mothership.
This is true but then again with the phase shift templars you can use the overpowered immortals with the warp gate to get the hardened shields to successfully feedback the command stream. Without Blizzard giving us the Command stream we wouldn't be able to actually get into the data editor to remove the abilities such as Hardened Shields and Phase Shift (aka Blink).
Remember, they might be sloppy but without their sloppiness you wouldn't get the possibility to accommodate the command stream information systems. This leads me to believe that Blizzard took the data from the command stream and used limiting functions to delegate certain abilities to be able to launch without the need of the command stream. By allowing those abilities to launch without confirmation means that we, the map makers, can check the phase shifting hardened shields immortals to balance them.
Remember, on Skype we all had this conversation before and I'm pretty sure it was Timetwister that falsely identified the function to allow data to infiltrate the command stream. (Typical ESV, so noob) Luckily Sigma had a dream forge in that excellent brain of his to solve the equations limiting the phase shifting immortals.
With that said,
Good job Sigma, for shame Timetwister & Good luck to all participates!
I too remember no such thing. Since you're talking about early game exploits...if this occurred before TLMC1, I wasn't around.
On June 25 2013 07:05 SiskosGoatee wrote: A bit sloppy, yeah.
But then again, these guys also forgot to actually remove the immortal warpin ability, they just removed it from the command card. You could still transmit abilities from the alpha over the command stream in the early days of WoL, people made exploits to warp in immortals, phase shift with templar, use all the retardedly overpowered removed abilities from the mothership.
This is true but then again with the phase shift templars you can use the overpowered immortals with the warp gate to get the hardened shields to successfully feedback the command stream. Without Blizzard giving us the Command stream we wouldn't be able to actually get into the data editor to remove the abilities such as Hardened Shields and Phase Shift (aka Blink).
Remember, they might be sloppy but without their sloppiness you wouldn't get the possibility to accommodate the command stream information systems. This leads me to believe that Blizzard took the data from the command stream and used limiting functions to delegate certain abilities to be able to launch without the need of the command stream. By allowing those abilities to launch without confirmation means that we, the map makers, can check the phase shifting hardened shields immortals to balance them.
Remember, on Skype we all had this conversation before and I'm pretty sure it was Timetwister that falsely identified the function to allow data to infiltrate the command stream. (Typical ESV, so noob) Luckily Sigma had a dream forge in that excellent brain of his to solve the equations limiting the phase shifting immortals.
With that said,
Good job Sigma, for shame Timetwister & Good luck to all participates!
I too remember no such thing. Since you're talking about early game exploits...if this occurred before TLMC1, I wasn't around.
I'm pretty sure this is purposefully constructed grammatical nonsense using some buzzwords to bite and entrap me to reveal I don't know what I'm talking about. What's said there makes no sense from a technical standpoint.
This leads me to believe that Blizzard took the data from the command stream and used limiting functions to delegate certain abilities to be able to launch without the need of the command stream. By allowing those abilities to launch without confirmation means that we, the map makers, can check the phase shifting hardened shields immortals to balance them.
THese kinds of passages are really devoid of any meaning.
On June 25 2013 07:05 SiskosGoatee wrote: A bit sloppy, yeah.
But then again, these guys also forgot to actually remove the immortal warpin ability, they just removed it from the command card. You could still transmit abilities from the alpha over the command stream in the early days of WoL, people made exploits to warp in immortals, phase shift with templar, use all the retardedly overpowered removed abilities from the mothership.
This is true but then again with the phase shift templars you can use the overpowered immortals with the warp gate to get the hardened shields to successfully feedback the command stream. Without Blizzard giving us the Command stream we wouldn't be able to actually get into the data editor to remove the abilities such as Hardened Shields and Phase Shift (aka Blink).
Remember, they might be sloppy but without their sloppiness you wouldn't get the possibility to accommodate the command stream information systems. This leads me to believe that Blizzard took the data from the command stream and used limiting functions to delegate certain abilities to be able to launch without the need of the command stream. By allowing those abilities to launch without confirmation means that we, the map makers, can check the phase shifting hardened shields immortals to balance them.
Remember, on Skype we all had this conversation before and I'm pretty sure it was Timetwister that falsely identified the function to allow data to infiltrate the command stream. (Typical ESV, so noob) Luckily Sigma had a dream forge in that excellent brain of his to solve the equations limiting the phase shifting immortals.
With that said,
Good job Sigma, for shame Timetwister & Good luck to all participates!
My brain exploded trying to decipher this post. Ugh, I really need to finish my Blistering Sands remix. So much to do, so little time. :c
On June 25 2013 07:05 SiskosGoatee wrote: A bit sloppy, yeah.
But then again, these guys also forgot to actually remove the immortal warpin ability, they just removed it from the command card. You could still transmit abilities from the alpha over the command stream in the early days of WoL, people made exploits to warp in immortals, phase shift with templar, use all the retardedly overpowered removed abilities from the mothership.
This is true but then again with the phase shift templars you can use the overpowered immortals with the warp gate to get the hardened shields to successfully feedback the command stream. Without Blizzard giving us the Command stream we wouldn't be able to actually get into the data editor to remove the abilities such as Hardened Shields and Phase Shift (aka Blink).
Remember, they might be sloppy but without their sloppiness you wouldn't get the possibility to accommodate the command stream information systems. This leads me to believe that Blizzard took the data from the command stream and used limiting functions to delegate certain abilities to be able to launch without the need of the command stream. By allowing those abilities to launch without confirmation means that we, the map makers, can check the phase shifting hardened shields immortals to balance them.
Remember, on Skype we all had this conversation before and I'm pretty sure it was Timetwister that falsely identified the function to allow data to infiltrate the command stream. (Typical ESV, so noob) Luckily Sigma had a dream forge in that excellent brain of his to solve the equations limiting the phase shifting immortals.
With that said,
Good job Sigma, for shame Timetwister & Good luck to all participates!
On June 25 2013 07:05 SiskosGoatee wrote: A bit sloppy, yeah.
But then again, these guys also forgot to actually remove the immortal warpin ability, they just removed it from the command card. You could still transmit abilities from the alpha over the command stream in the early days of WoL, people made exploits to warp in immortals, phase shift with templar, use all the retardedly overpowered removed abilities from the mothership.
This is true but then again with the phase shift templars you can use the overpowered immortals with the warp gate to get the hardened shields to successfully feedback the command stream. Without Blizzard giving us the Command stream we wouldn't be able to actually get into the data editor to remove the abilities such as Hardened Shields and Phase Shift (aka Blink).
Remember, they might be sloppy but without their sloppiness you wouldn't get the possibility to accommodate the command stream information systems. This leads me to believe that Blizzard took the data from the command stream and used limiting functions to delegate certain abilities to be able to launch without the need of the command stream. By allowing those abilities to launch without confirmation means that we, the map makers, can check the phase shifting hardened shields immortals to balance them.
Remember, on Skype we all had this conversation before and I'm pretty sure it was Timetwister that falsely identified the function to allow data to infiltrate the command stream. (Typical ESV, so noob) Luckily Sigma had a dream forge in that excellent brain of his to solve the equations limiting the phase shifting immortals.
With that said,
Good job Sigma, for shame Timetwister & Good luck to all participates!
On June 25 2013 07:05 SiskosGoatee wrote: A bit sloppy, yeah.
But then again, these guys also forgot to actually remove the immortal warpin ability, they just removed it from the command card. You could still transmit abilities from the alpha over the command stream in the early days of WoL, people made exploits to warp in immortals, phase shift with templar, use all the retardedly overpowered removed abilities from the mothership.
This is true but then again with the phase shift templars you can use the overpowered immortals with the warp gate to get the hardened shields to successfully feedback the command stream. Without Blizzard giving us the Command stream we wouldn't be able to actually get into the data editor to remove the abilities such as Hardened Shields and Phase Shift (aka Blink).
Remember, they might be sloppy but without their sloppiness you wouldn't get the possibility to accommodate the command stream information systems. This leads me to believe that Blizzard took the data from the command stream and used limiting functions to delegate certain abilities to be able to launch without the need of the command stream. By allowing those abilities to launch without confirmation means that we, the map makers, can check the phase shifting hardened shields immortals to balance them.
Remember, on Skype we all had this conversation before and I'm pretty sure it was Timetwister that falsely identified the function to allow data to infiltrate the command stream. (Typical ESV, so noob) Luckily Sigma had a dream forge in that excellent brain of his to solve the equations limiting the phase shifting immortals.
With that said,
Good job Sigma, for shame Timetwister & Good luck to all participates!
My brain exploded trying to decipher this post. Ugh, I really need to finish my Blistering Sands remix. So much to do, so little time. :c
Considering I have a job and stuff, when I have time. That's why I said sometime early this week, instead of giving a date. So, sometime later today or tomorrow for my time zone.
As a reminder for participants, make sure you have all required info in your posts.
.Looking through some of these submission threads, many are missing important info that will be needed as per the rules. I will include things such as original map size and pic vs the new size and pic for voting. If you don't include all your info in your threads, I will not hunt you down to find such info. I'll just simply not include your map in the voting.
rotated the centre bases 90 degrees and put rocks on them
stuck a great big ol' swamp in the middle
The swamp area has a lot of vission blockers so visibility is low everywhere in the swamp unless you have air support
no buildings can be built in the swamp
there is a xel'naga tower in the centre providing vision advantage in the swamp for those who hold it.
To get an idea of the size here is a size comparisson with metalopolis. Remember, close spawns are disabled but I included it anyway to get an idea of size.
Bel'shir swamp - 176 x 173 Metalopolis - 140 x 140
close spawn -Bel'Shir swamp: 121.4 -metalopolis: 107.7 -difference: +12%
close air: -Bel'Shir swamp: 148.3 -metalopolis: 135.5 -difference: +9%
I hope you like it. It was the first map I ever made. The images above are outdated as I did a bit of work on it before submitting it to this competition such as making the outside prettier, changing the water colours to match better, flattening the terrain more and fixing the pathing problems in the mains.
The swamp area is a mechanic never seen in a competitive map before and one I have never seen in ANY map before. (Though I'm sure others have thought of it / done it as well). As such it is hard to say how it would work out in competitive play. Maybe it is not as balanced as metalopolis but I would argue that it would make for a more fun map and thus qualify as a "better than Blizzard map". QED.
Uploaded as Bel'Shir swamp on the NA and EU region for those wanting to try it
Well, never got a chance to finish this one, but I'll post it here just for shits and giggles. I'm not submitting this BTW, just did it for fun. This contest needed some team map loving anyway.
EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/wAYjAes.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/1xgBtGp.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/i4pBvo9.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/sVHkW5k.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/Os3VU18.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/9laHjnC.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/TDbd08Y.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/images2/1/15/Klontas_Mire_TE.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/images2/9/94/GSLIcarus.jpg)
(definitely not trying to get people to give me feedback 
)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/DZViVqw.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://sc2melee.net/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/entombedvalley1.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/6fDgxx6.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/AjcTe2o.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/qdnw6hg.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/8BAxm90.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/LXKAwJ2.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/652osik.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/HUalDxM.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/Ub81Ne1.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/j1v26dJ.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/BTNhzid.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/8wddz67.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/images2/d/d6/Typhon_peaks.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/DkXn5.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/q5hYipy.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/MweBCW2.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/NTcTEL5.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/y4dS7pE.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/kcMWmzF.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/KJyPzHH.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/IZQ9BXK.png)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/yF1XSTw.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/BDeSIox.png)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/RlgqS35.png)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/tMNzmRf.png)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/ISRfeIg.png)
![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/images2/7/71/Burial_Grounds.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/images2/6/64/Jungle_Basin.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/images2/a/af/Elysium.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/images2/6/66/Kulas_Ravine.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/images2/7/74/New_Antioch.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/images2/3/32/Searing_Crater.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/images2/b/ba/Shakuras_Plateau_2.0.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/images2/3/30/Terminus.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/images2/e/e4/The_Shattered_Temple.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/images2/3/37/Vigilance.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/qF8lZ4B.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.gamer-source.com/image/news/2010/10-21/sc2maps_Lost_Temple_full.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/w7mjcMr.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/9WUG6Nf.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/fEbulB9.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/26LpUNX.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/6ols9As.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/images2/thumb/f/f3/Incineration_Zone.jpg/400px-Incineration_Zone.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/x2PpLv2.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/2X6LzkS.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/5YwDTXv.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/TNy5hjP.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/3Awgqcg.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/images2/thumb/3/3e/Agria_Valley.jpg/566px-Agria_Valley.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/CFB8i9s.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/uqJzY2f.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/ywjqD1I.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/ZqY0caO.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/dfNKBLW.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/idhBCoe.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/uxHq6FZ.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/xmHlJUN.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/rjUgb1J.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/b9MrNW8.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/eMiQPzH.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/sLhE9iX.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/PQmJRmE.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/kPZ7nrk.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/h6qISAj.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/THpb8f1.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/WOVQStF.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/eDOICNY.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/NNWzbCm.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/8jjPuhv.png)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/HoCjoQz.png)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/1rbOu0Y.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/MKujHpW.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/UnGCv.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/5rxZijD.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/rVeIZO5.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/Th0Grb0.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/G1qwqkw.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/lsqhqKV.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/A7RYKyo.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/bbBi1w3.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/tTyEqY5.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/xtsfR1M.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/rfqObyr.jpg?3)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/GL9jy8p.jpg?2)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/P2GCD4R.jpg?1)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/DtXD0S0.jpg?1)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/Z71cDyX.jpg?1)
![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/images2/c/c0/Antiga_Shipyard.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/eGmWKJs.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/images2/thumb/7/71/Burial_Grounds.jpg/400px-Burial_Grounds.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/46JWpBL.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/SMQTEIQ.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/fWKfkob.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/7CfDk1n.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/2GUhfHM.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/B6NRnX9.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/3vJEUd0.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/wTe8ix5.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/tu5F0Ly.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/QgHPkxf.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/RkL89XI.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/PNGmVHH.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/85XPybF.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/iwT1OXX.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/0mV2hDe.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/HhOquNW.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/tWhOX78.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/wMcOSl.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/gdTmdLFl.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/ec7P5HOl.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/whcCetsl.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/svU6AO5l.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/cZPL4Sjl.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/PISy1Y1l.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/iT6FZyjl.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/c4VKVLVl.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/fZlEkzyl.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/d7awbO9l.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/TOebHN8l.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/NlO3nKZl.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/b11Q1aJl.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/images2/thumb/5/55/Xel%27Naga_Caverns.jpg/400px-Xel%27Naga_Caverns.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/fN5Q28C.png)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/TKiuubp.png)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/plih2Qm.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/FYYruXS.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/We0WVIH.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/dJ6u1CN.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/V1FfjUk.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/w6ps8yd.png)
![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/images2/thumb/f/fb/Debris_Field.jpg/497px-Debris_Field.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/tMGwrMf.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/2BnaBTl.png)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/isk6Ps0.png)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/ScLx0.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/bB2NH.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/C3N1r.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/Y6VuH.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/mcS7o.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/0pAR4.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/images2/9/9b/Metalopolis.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/images2/thumb/f/f5/MetalopolisPaths.png/546px-MetalopolisPaths.png)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/nwBchfg.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/images2/thumb/f/f6/War_Zone.jpg/618px-War_Zone.jpg)
