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On January 23 2013 08:20 SiskosGoatee wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2013 08:07 Antares777 wrote:
The natural ramp should not be an issue in ZvZ due to the large rush distances in my opinion. Rush distance really does not matter all that much with ZvZ. It takes waaay longer to actually build lings than to send them over map. In ZvZ you have to respond when units are building (check drone count with an overlord), not when you see them leaving, then you are dead already)
This is not entirely correct. Zerg, being a reactionary race, builds combat units in response to their opponent (assuming they are playing defensively). Seeing the Zerglings en route to your natural should give you some time to do something about it. You will certainly have more time on this map than, say, Steppes of War, because of the distance between the mains. Responding when units are in production is ridiculous and out of the question, I don't know how anyone would be able to do that without really good insight. Even if you scout the eggs morphing, how can you tell whether they will be Zerglings or Drones? You can't until they hatch.
The ramp location being further out just makes it a little bit easier for the aggressive player to push with Banelings. It doesn't mean that the defensive player can't defend. He just won't be able to defend as well as if the ramp was closer to the natural. With the way that the map is set up now, the defensive player can easily opt for a Spanishiwa-type build where both Queens are used to defend the ramp into the main and Drones can traverse between them from the natural to the main if the natural goes under attack. Yeah, it's not ideal, but it's better than watching all your Drones get eaten. It will certainly buy more time to mount a proper defense.
I agree that with the ZvZ match up, the distances matter less than the other match ups, but they still matter, and I think that a ramp that is placed further out from the natural is a feature of a map and not something that should be considered bad for ZvZ. It just means players will have to play more cautiously than on maps with extremely safe naturals.
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On January 23 2013 09:01 Antares777 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2013 08:20 SiskosGoatee wrote:On January 23 2013 08:07 Antares777 wrote:
The natural ramp should not be an issue in ZvZ due to the large rush distances in my opinion. Rush distance really does not matter all that much with ZvZ. It takes waaay longer to actually build lings than to send them over map. In ZvZ you have to respond when units are building (check drone count with an overlord), not when you see them leaving, then you are dead already) This is not entirely correct. Zerg, being a reactionary race, builds combat units in response to their opponent (assuming they are playing defensively). Seeing the Zerglings en route to your natural should give you some time to do something about it. You will certainly have more time on this map than, say, Steppes of War, because of the distance between the mains. Responding when units are in production is ridiculous and out of the question, I don't know how anyone would be able to do that without really good insight. Even if you scout the eggs morphing, how can you tell whether they will be Zerglings or Drones? You can't until they hatch. This is not how a ling all in works, you mass ling first then you send them. 1 inject worth of ligs, or even 2, is not scary, you need to devote at least 4 injects that you mass and hide and then send them. The time the lings take to travel the map is completely insignificant compared to the time to actually build them. Your opponent will notice if he's any good that there aren't any drones populating your natural saturation. He will conclude that you are therefore spending larvae on units and will make defenses accordingly. Defences which are hard to pull if you cannot block the ramp with queens in range to deal dps and transfuse spines.
You absolutely cannot start lings yourself if suddenly 32 lings leave his base and your overlord sees that. You have 2 injects just arriving in the best case scenario giving you 16 lings at max, which take 35 seconds to spawn, zergling cross the map in about 12. If your opponent only knows a ling all in is coming when it leaves your base you've already won.
(which is by the way why lower level players constantly lament that ZvZ is a coinflip, they aren't monitoring drone counts with overlords and it seems like a coinflip).
The ramp location being further out just makes it a little bit easier for the aggressive player to push with Banelings. It doesn't mean that the defensive player can't defend. You can always defend. You can also defend a 4gate without a ramp. But that it's harder makes ling all ins very powerful. There's a reason almost everyone ling/bane all ins on TDA and Entombed valley, they're very hard to hold.
I agree that with the ZvZ match up, the distances matter less than the other match ups, but they still matter, and I think that a ramp that is placed further out from the natural is a feature of a map and not something that should be considered bad for ZvZ. It just means players will have to play more cautiously than on maps with extremely safe naturals. Of course it still matters a little, but it's completely insignificant compared to the design of the natural in how easy these all ins are to hold.
Anyway a natural design like this or TDA is what TDA is to PvP. You both have to ling all in each other because the only viable defene against a ling all in is a defensive ling all in if you will. You have to make a lot of Zerglings and banelings to hold it. Queens and spines don't really work in this configuration. Just like you can't hold a 4gate with a robo and a forcefield on TDA. You have to 4gate yourself.
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Anyway a natural design like this or TDA is what TDA is to PvP. You both have to ling all in each other because the only viable defene against a ling all in is a defensive ling all in if you will. You have to make a lot of Zerglings and banelings to hold it. Queens and spines don't really work in this configuration. Just like you can't hold a 4gate with a robo and a forcefield on TDA. You have to 4gate yourself.
That's the question I was driving at. So this is the standard view among zergs? From a spectator standpoint, I think ling bane wars (assuming both players know that's what they have to do for a long time) is more interesting than 4gate; it has more moving pieces and more interactions, and probably more skill involved overall. (I really like well-executed 4gate micro though.) But, I understand if it's a dumb grind for zerg players that should be avoided, if that's what the consensus is.
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On January 23 2013 10:41 EatThePath wrote:Show nested quote +Anyway a natural design like this or TDA is what TDA is to PvP. You both have to ling all in each other because the only viable defene against a ling all in is a defensive ling all in if you will. You have to make a lot of Zerglings and banelings to hold it. Queens and spines don't really work in this configuration. Just like you can't hold a 4gate with a robo and a forcefield on TDA. You have to 4gate yourself. That's the question I was driving at. So this is the standard view among zergs? From a spectator standpoint, I think ling bane wars (assuming both players know that's what they have to do for a long time) is more interesting than 4gate; it has more moving pieces and more interactions, and probably more skill involved overall. (I really like well-executed 4gate micro though.) But, I understand if it's a dumb grind for zerg players that should be avoided, if that's what the consensus is. Can't speak for all Zergs. I am but a random player with good ZvZ. But well, take a look at TDA or Entombed Valley, there'a lot of Lingbane vs lignbane all ins on both maps.
The best way to defend it on those maps is lingbane all in yourself. The way to get ahead against such an all in without dying is make your defence larva efficient, lings take a lot of larvae for him to make. If you can defend with the larva efficient spines and queens you can put more larvae into drones et voilla you are ahead. How ZvZ works is that unlike other matchups, if you have less drones than he but a larger army you can just put all those larvae into drones again, he can't attack you because you have a larger army and you're even again. It's fundamentally different from any other mu in that you are not economically behind if you are economically behind if that makes any sense.
Since the larva efficient method does not work on those maps because spines do not cover both the ramp and the hatch and queens do not cover the spines or the hatch on the ramp. Meaning that by going for a larva inefficient defence means that even if you hold, you don't do so with a drone lead, together wit that banelings do splash, and no friendly splash. You don't actually want the supposed 'defenders advantage', you want to be the aggressor and have the battle occur at his natural because drones will die from it His banes will kill like 6 lings, your banes will kill 6 lings + 2 drones. Sure, it creates a kind of fun dynamic I feel, ling bane all ins no longer become all ins. Even if he holds, you're not behind. But it's still something to consider.
The way to hold TvT all ins is to just hold it, he stopped making scvs, he most likely brought scv along. He jut has less scvs at the end and he can't recuperate. In ZvZ if you ling/bane all in and you see he matches your ling/bane count afterwards you can then just make drones while he was matchng yours and you're even again and never attack. It's a really weird matchup in that respect.
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Thanks, this brought the crux out for me. Since I don't pay close attention or have any feel for the positioning elements with any precision in zvz, I will have to think more about this when looking at natural design. I agree it's a great dynamic, unique among the matchups, which should be provided for, if not guaranteed.
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I'm not so much of a fan of this map. To me it is way too standard, it looks like a GSL map that has been poorly executed. Highground pods in the middle, bases round the outside, CS, watchtowers covering the middle paths. None of the bases are particularly interesting to me, I prefer your other maps Scorp. That said, I'm sure this map would play out well, just standard.
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On January 23 2013 20:22 OxyGenesis wrote:
I'm not so much of a fan of this map. To me it is way too standard, it looks like a GSL map that has been poorly executed. Highground pods in the middle, bases round the outside, CS, watchtowers covering the middle paths. None of the bases are particularly interesting to me, I prefer your other maps Scorp. That said, I'm sure this map would play out well, just standard. I honestly find mysefl agreeing with OxyGenesis in for the first time, except the ramp it doesn't have any major flaws, it just doesn't catch my interest either.
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- Moved Natural ramp closer to Natural
- Rotated third base to allow for more harrassment
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This seems like a very cool map, ill see if i can get someone to try it with¨~
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EPT
