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Behind the Scenes+ Show Spoiler +It takes effort and knowledge to create a good map, so I decided to save and share my progress for everyone to look at. Step One: Create a LayoutAs a first step, you will need to construct a layout to your liking. Changes may be made later in the development, but getting it some-what right by now is prefered. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/nmncWzO.jpg) Step Two: Adjusting LayoutWhen you have built a layout, you can now have a closer look at how it turned out. You will in this phase make adjustments - big or small - to your map, as well as start getting a feel of what kind of aesthetics you think will fit. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/Uw2f0Fq.jpg) Step Three: Adding Ground TexturesYou should by now be ready to start adding detail and aesthetic feel to your map. Playing around with ground textures should start shape your aesthetic direction pretty quick. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/ihpxAa4.jpg) Step Four: Adding DetailNow that the basic ground texturing has been done, you should be able to start adding doodads. You may also realize that a different fog or lighting may fit your theme better. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/xz7FiF8.jpg) Step Five: FeedbackAt this point, I was ready to show off my work to others, and received some good feedback. I decided to make some slight layout changes while further detailing the map. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/LidIbIy.jpg) Step Six: Finishing AestheticsAt the end of this phase, everything should be to your liking and ready to show off to the public. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/hzetyXM.jpg) Step Seven: Last TouchWhen you think your map is finished, take a break and have another look. You may also ask for some more feedback. Refine your texture-work and add more plants. You may also want to make slight adjustments to the fog and/or change the lighting once again now that you have finished the aesthetic work. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/3FqW2fr.jpg) Step Eight: Releasing Your MapAfter countless hours working intensively on your masterpiece, you're now ready to show off what you have been working on to the public. Take your time taking screenshots of your map, and organize your map thread carefully. Remember that, even though it's not the actual map, an unorganized thread is unattractive and may have a bad influence on the general thoughts of your map.
Please leave a comment, all feedback is appreciated.
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I feel the ramp is too far away from the natural, this often gets overlooked but it creates a real problem in trying to nexus wall, while this is not even a major issue, the major issue is ZvZ, a ramp that far from your natural really makes baneling all ins hard to stop in ZvZ. You of course want to be able to make a spine that guards both the ramp which will be blocked by queens and the hatch as well as if at atll possible make the queens that are blocking the ramp assist in dps roles.
Apart from that the thirds are a bit too open I feel, this might cause some problems in PvZ.
It takes a lot of effort and knowledge to create a map
No it doesn't.
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On January 23 2013 02:13 Barrin wrote:
Would you say that it takes a lot of effort and knowledge to create a good map? I'll just pm you and not devolve this topic. If anyone wants to but in on this fine discussion, make a new topic I guess.
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On January 23 2013 02:37 SiskosGoatee wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2013 02:13 Barrin wrote:
Would you say that it takes a lot of effort and knowledge to create a good map? I'll just pm you and not devolve this topic. If anyone wants to but in on this fine discussion, make a new topic I guess.
I would be interested in reading such discussion. Feel free to start a topic.
As for the map itself, it's pretty good. Really like the design of the middle, and the cliff behind the fourth is a pretty neat feature.
However, like any map it has some room for improvement. As of now, the third is kinda boring, and reminds me of the third on Condemned Ridge just a bit. The natural ramp is a bit far, but that should be just fine for WoL. With Hots though, I would like to see the natural ramp closer to the base so the Mothership Core can be utilized in defending the natural ramp. Additionally, the fourth and fifth of opposing players seem quite close from the overview. Sure, there are rocks to help alliterative this, but I feel some change in pathing would be a more solid solution. Overall though, this map should play just fine, and the middle concept is pretty neat.
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Siskos crusade gogogo !
On the map itself, i'd like the nat and left and rightmost bases to have their minerals rotated so that they are easier to harass by air and/or to siege from lowground.
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On January 23 2013 04:23 ArcticRaven wrote:
Siskos crusade gogogo !
On the map itself, i'd like the nat and left and rightmost bases to have their minerals rotated so that they are easier to harass by air and/or to siege from lowground.
I call assassins as my faction. Please tell me we can all agree that in the version of history, Steppes of War will be Jerusalem.
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I like the changes you made since the wip thread scorp. I agree with timetwister though. Except for the ramp from natural thing. Can someone explain what the trouble is with this? Personally, I like that in theory, a player can gain positional advantage by advancing on the map, even at the very early stage of the game stepping from the natural CC site to nearby where the chokepoint is. Collapsing these just removes depth from the possibilities of the map. But is there a concrete reason why this distance is too far?
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On January 23 2013 04:32 EatThePath wrote:
I like the changes you made since the wip thread scorp. I agree with timetwister though. Except for the ramp from natural thing. Can someone explain what the trouble is with this? Personally, I like that in theory, a player can gain positional advantage by advancing on the map, even at the very early stage of the game stepping from the natural CC site to nearby where the chokepoint is. Collapsing these just removes depth from the possibilities of the map. But is there a concrete reason why this distance is too far?
If gateway expands become viable PvZ in Hots due to the mothership core, I would highly recommend mapmakers take such into consideration. Will make you map much more dynamic in terms of early game PvZ. Otherwise, if the msc cannot be used to defend the ramp, then the toss is essentially forced to forge fast expand. I would consider that a bad thing imo.
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On January 23 2013 04:41 Timetwister22 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2013 04:32 EatThePath wrote:
I like the changes you made since the wip thread scorp. I agree with timetwister though. Except for the ramp from natural thing. Can someone explain what the trouble is with this? Personally, I like that in theory, a player can gain positional advantage by advancing on the map, even at the very early stage of the game stepping from the natural CC site to nearby where the chokepoint is. Collapsing these just removes depth from the possibilities of the map. But is there a concrete reason why this distance is too far? If gateway expands become viable PvZ in Hots due to the mothership core, I would highly recommend mapmakers take such into consideration. Will make you map much more dynamic in terms of early game PvZ. Otherwise, if the msc cannot be used to defend the ramp, then the toss is essentially forced to forge fast expand. I would consider that a bad thing imo.
Why is that? I don't see why protoss can't do: gate at main ramp, cyber near nexus lowground after scout it's not 7pool, nexus, gate lowground, one sentry + mothership core means they're safe. Later they can move up to hold the ramp, as it's a better chokepoint. MSC defending the chokepoint with photon overcharge just seems like gravy for a protoss, not a prerequisite for gateway expand. Like, the point of gateway expand is that the zerg isn't allowed to go straight to 3 bases. The protoss pays for this by spending gas on ensuring safety (sentries). Except now that you have a castable PF at your natural, you don't have to sink so much into sentries and can continue teching, which is what you're really getting at right?
But I don't know about these things for sure.
I'm interested to hear about the zvz issue too.
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Not even PvZ, the main problem is ZvZ with a ramp far from the expo. You can't ever hope to defend early all ins without it, queens are slow off creep you know.
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On January 23 2013 05:45 SiskosGoatee wrote:
Not even PvZ, the main problem is ZvZ with a ramp far from the expo. You can't ever hope to defend early all ins without it, queens are slow off creep you know.
What about Daybreak?
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Daybreak distance is fine, you can hold those quite well on it. It's a lot harder on entombed valley for instance because the ramp is very far away from the hatch.
It also plays a lesser role in holding 2rax. This is the reason almost every Terran 2rax proxies on entombed and Bel'Shir Vestige, it's very hard to defend it because the ramp is so far away from your hatch. Queens are slow bitches off creep.
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Thanks for the feedback (and interesting discussion). I'll be rolling in some changes in the next couple of days.
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Truth be told, I think the ZvZ issue is only known to Z players, I see this a lot in maps. They take perfect considerations on the third for PvZ and all that stuff but basically this is never on the agenda. Djinn's delight is a particularly big offender, good luck defending a 2rax on that map, you have to pull your drones an hour and a half.
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Er, so you mean stopping a bunker wall? Or just a bunker placed to cut between the two hatches? That would be more a function of distance in the main, right? Also, I guess you're saying that zergs try to use simcity and a spine to defend against baneling attacks and the proximity of the ramp closes the window on the success of that style. Is it bad if a map prolongs that window? That's an honest question. I think ling bane wars are silly, but they're impressive and fun to watch. Eventually the aggression will have to stop right? I don't see what the ramp/choke itself has to do with it besides a good spot to make an evo/warren/spine/queen walloff, I guess?
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No, the issue isn't the drones, it's the queen who's slow off creep and wants to stay on the ramp to retreat to the high ground whenever possible as well as block the ramp in ZvZ regarding ling runbies.
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I'm gunna play devil's advocate here and say you can put a tumour down instead of an inject. Every map doesn't have to facilitate the whole "no rush 10 minutes. Have to be 100% safe and work 100% with current meta game" shit.
It's a mirror matchup meaning you both have to do it to defend properly, leaving no one at an advantage. If they don't do it, go exploit that weakness.
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The natural ramp should not be an issue in ZvZ due to the large rush distances in my opinion.
I think the map is pretty solid.
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On January 23 2013 08:07 Antares777 wrote:
The natural ramp should not be an issue in ZvZ due to the large rush distances in my opinion. Rush distance really does not matter all that much with ZvZ. It takes waaay longer to actually build lings than to send them over map. In ZvZ you have to respond when units are building (check drone count with an overlord), not when you see them leaving, the you are dead already)
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On January 23 2013 08:20 SiskosGoatee wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2013 08:07 Antares777 wrote:
The natural ramp should not be an issue in ZvZ due to the large rush distances in my opinion. Rush distance really does not matter all that much with ZvZ. It takes waaay longer to actually build lings than to send them over map. In ZvZ you have to respond when units are building (check drone count with an overlord), not when you see them leaving, then you are dead already)
This is not entirely correct. Zerg, being a reactionary race, builds combat units in response to their opponent (assuming they are playing defensively). Seeing the Zerglings en route to your natural should give you some time to do something about it. You will certainly have more time on this map than, say, Steppes of War, because of the distance between the mains. Responding when units are in production is ridiculous and out of the question, I don't know how anyone would be able to do that without really good insight. Even if you scout the eggs morphing, how can you tell whether they will be Zerglings or Drones? You can't until they hatch.
The ramp location being further out just makes it a little bit easier for the aggressive player to push with Banelings. It doesn't mean that the defensive player can't defend. He just won't be able to defend as well as if the ramp was closer to the natural. With the way that the map is set up now, the defensive player can easily opt for a Spanishiwa-type build where both Queens are used to defend the ramp into the main and Drones can traverse between them from the natural to the main if the natural goes under attack. Yeah, it's not ideal, but it's better than watching all your Drones get eaten. It will certainly buy more time to mount a proper defense.
I agree that with the ZvZ match up, the distances matter less than the other match ups, but they still matter, and I think that a ramp that is placed further out from the natural is a feature of a map and not something that should be considered bad for ZvZ. It just means players will have to play more cautiously than on maps with extremely safe naturals.
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On January 23 2013 09:01 Antares777 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2013 08:20 SiskosGoatee wrote:On January 23 2013 08:07 Antares777 wrote:
The natural ramp should not be an issue in ZvZ due to the large rush distances in my opinion. Rush distance really does not matter all that much with ZvZ. It takes waaay longer to actually build lings than to send them over map. In ZvZ you have to respond when units are building (check drone count with an overlord), not when you see them leaving, then you are dead already) This is not entirely correct. Zerg, being a reactionary race, builds combat units in response to their opponent (assuming they are playing defensively). Seeing the Zerglings en route to your natural should give you some time to do something about it. You will certainly have more time on this map than, say, Steppes of War, because of the distance between the mains. Responding when units are in production is ridiculous and out of the question, I don't know how anyone would be able to do that without really good insight. Even if you scout the eggs morphing, how can you tell whether they will be Zerglings or Drones? You can't until they hatch. This is not how a ling all in works, you mass ling first then you send them. 1 inject worth of ligs, or even 2, is not scary, you need to devote at least 4 injects that you mass and hide and then send them. The time the lings take to travel the map is completely insignificant compared to the time to actually build them. Your opponent will notice if he's any good that there aren't any drones populating your natural saturation. He will conclude that you are therefore spending larvae on units and will make defenses accordingly. Defences which are hard to pull if you cannot block the ramp with queens in range to deal dps and transfuse spines.
You absolutely cannot start lings yourself if suddenly 32 lings leave his base and your overlord sees that. You have 2 injects just arriving in the best case scenario giving you 16 lings at max, which take 35 seconds to spawn, zergling cross the map in about 12. If your opponent only knows a ling all in is coming when it leaves your base you've already won.
(which is by the way why lower level players constantly lament that ZvZ is a coinflip, they aren't monitoring drone counts with overlords and it seems like a coinflip).
The ramp location being further out just makes it a little bit easier for the aggressive player to push with Banelings. It doesn't mean that the defensive player can't defend. You can always defend. You can also defend a 4gate without a ramp. But that it's harder makes ling all ins very powerful. There's a reason almost everyone ling/bane all ins on TDA and Entombed valley, they're very hard to hold.
I agree that with the ZvZ match up, the distances matter less than the other match ups, but they still matter, and I think that a ramp that is placed further out from the natural is a feature of a map and not something that should be considered bad for ZvZ. It just means players will have to play more cautiously than on maps with extremely safe naturals. Of course it still matters a little, but it's completely insignificant compared to the design of the natural in how easy these all ins are to hold.
Anyway a natural design like this or TDA is what TDA is to PvP. You both have to ling all in each other because the only viable defene against a ling all in is a defensive ling all in if you will. You have to make a lot of Zerglings and banelings to hold it. Queens and spines don't really work in this configuration. Just like you can't hold a 4gate with a robo and a forcefield on TDA. You have to 4gate yourself.
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Anyway a natural design like this or TDA is what TDA is to PvP. You both have to ling all in each other because the only viable defene against a ling all in is a defensive ling all in if you will. You have to make a lot of Zerglings and banelings to hold it. Queens and spines don't really work in this configuration. Just like you can't hold a 4gate with a robo and a forcefield on TDA. You have to 4gate yourself.
That's the question I was driving at. So this is the standard view among zergs? From a spectator standpoint, I think ling bane wars (assuming both players know that's what they have to do for a long time) is more interesting than 4gate; it has more moving pieces and more interactions, and probably more skill involved overall. (I really like well-executed 4gate micro though.) But, I understand if it's a dumb grind for zerg players that should be avoided, if that's what the consensus is.
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On January 23 2013 10:41 EatThePath wrote:Show nested quote +Anyway a natural design like this or TDA is what TDA is to PvP. You both have to ling all in each other because the only viable defene against a ling all in is a defensive ling all in if you will. You have to make a lot of Zerglings and banelings to hold it. Queens and spines don't really work in this configuration. Just like you can't hold a 4gate with a robo and a forcefield on TDA. You have to 4gate yourself. That's the question I was driving at. So this is the standard view among zergs? From a spectator standpoint, I think ling bane wars (assuming both players know that's what they have to do for a long time) is more interesting than 4gate; it has more moving pieces and more interactions, and probably more skill involved overall. (I really like well-executed 4gate micro though.) But, I understand if it's a dumb grind for zerg players that should be avoided, if that's what the consensus is. Can't speak for all Zergs. I am but a random player with good ZvZ. But well, take a look at TDA or Entombed Valley, there'a lot of Lingbane vs lignbane all ins on both maps.
The best way to defend it on those maps is lingbane all in yourself. The way to get ahead against such an all in without dying is make your defence larva efficient, lings take a lot of larvae for him to make. If you can defend with the larva efficient spines and queens you can put more larvae into drones et voilla you are ahead. How ZvZ works is that unlike other matchups, if you have less drones than he but a larger army you can just put all those larvae into drones again, he can't attack you because you have a larger army and you're even again. It's fundamentally different from any other mu in that you are not economically behind if you are economically behind if that makes any sense.
Since the larva efficient method does not work on those maps because spines do not cover both the ramp and the hatch and queens do not cover the spines or the hatch on the ramp. Meaning that by going for a larva inefficient defence means that even if you hold, you don't do so with a drone lead, together wit that banelings do splash, and no friendly splash. You don't actually want the supposed 'defenders advantage', you want to be the aggressor and have the battle occur at his natural because drones will die from it His banes will kill like 6 lings, your banes will kill 6 lings + 2 drones. Sure, it creates a kind of fun dynamic I feel, ling bane all ins no longer become all ins. Even if he holds, you're not behind. But it's still something to consider.
The way to hold TvT all ins is to just hold it, he stopped making scvs, he most likely brought scv along. He jut has less scvs at the end and he can't recuperate. In ZvZ if you ling/bane all in and you see he matches your ling/bane count afterwards you can then just make drones while he was matchng yours and you're even again and never attack. It's a really weird matchup in that respect.
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Thanks, this brought the crux out for me. Since I don't pay close attention or have any feel for the positioning elements with any precision in zvz, I will have to think more about this when looking at natural design. I agree it's a great dynamic, unique among the matchups, which should be provided for, if not guaranteed.
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I'm not so much of a fan of this map. To me it is way too standard, it looks like a GSL map that has been poorly executed. Highground pods in the middle, bases round the outside, CS, watchtowers covering the middle paths. None of the bases are particularly interesting to me, I prefer your other maps Scorp. That said, I'm sure this map would play out well, just standard.
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On January 23 2013 20:22 OxyGenesis wrote:
I'm not so much of a fan of this map. To me it is way too standard, it looks like a GSL map that has been poorly executed. Highground pods in the middle, bases round the outside, CS, watchtowers covering the middle paths. None of the bases are particularly interesting to me, I prefer your other maps Scorp. That said, I'm sure this map would play out well, just standard. I honestly find mysefl agreeing with OxyGenesis in for the first time, except the ramp it doesn't have any major flaws, it just doesn't catch my interest either.
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- Moved Natural ramp closer to Natural
- Rotated third base to allow for more harrassment
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This seems like a very cool map, ill see if i can get someone to try it with¨~
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