Oh yeah great arguement. I can read fine, thank you. If they're breaking the rocks (which takes a while to do) and the zerg is atleast half competent in scouting they can get in position WELL before-hand. Hell, alot of terrans breaking rocks will do so with unsieged tanks because siege mode does lower single-target dps to the rocks, thats also a moment of weakness to exploit.
Just because its a slight choke doesnt mean its a nightmare for zerg. My point still applies, just flank pumpkin.
Oh and if I'm not mistaken, this area at the third is quite open for engagement...
As far as I'm concerned, and im sure others will agree, the only arguement you can legitimately make is the shorter distance gives the zerg less time to react. But continue to argue away if you like. I've chimed in with my two cents, enjoy your day.
Edit:
On February 18 2013 12:22 Zennith wrote: Yeah, and actually, honest to god, rank is important when discussing this. You can't argue about whether or not it is possible to defend a high level immortal sentry on this map if you're incapable of defending against it anywhere else. Also, I have to agree with Siskos' rebuttal.
Rank really doesn't mean shit in a discussion. Anyone can understand how to defend an immortal sentry allin even if they are unable to replicate it in their own play.
Well, while someone who is higher rank doesn't automatically have a good opinion on balance (IdrA), it is unlikely that someone of a lower rank can speak of the effectiveness of strategies on a higher rank.
That said, it wasn't a rebuttal, a rebuttal implies I invalidated his argument, I didn't, technically, his argument is solid and I even agree. He was just arguing something that was never in dispute, no one is denying that this push can be stopped if it goes through the centre. People are debating if it can be stopped well if it goes around the edges.
On February 18 2013 12:22 Zennith wrote: Yeah, and actually, honest to god, rank is important when discussing this. You can't argue about whether or not it is possible to defend a high level immortal sentry on this map if you're incapable of defending against it anywhere else. Also, I have to agree with Siskos' rebuttal.
Rank really doesn't mean shit in a discussion. Anyone can understand how to defend an immortal sentry allin even if they are unable to replicate it in their own play.
I'm sorry, but looking at how you adjusted your arrows you have no clue how to defend a high master sentry/immortal all in. That stuff you drew there will never fly. THere is no way to ever flank that, 2 forcefields on that ramp stop you and make you donate half of your army against a decent protoss player with half of those forcefields. You don't have a clue of what you're talking about. You're seriously telling a 1300+ point master Zerg and a 1200+ point master random that we need to learn how to play? Zenith is a coach for a semipro team competing in IPTL telling you that the entire team pretty much feels this map is imbalanced and you're argument is 'You need to learn how to use your race'? The sheer hubris.
I wasn't telling Zennith anything of the sort, that part was directed at you.
You see pro zergs bait forcefields without losing half their army all the time in all kinds of situations, and in this case if they forcefield that ramp they just delayed their push for an entire forcefield duration. Having said that, the majority of my arguement was based on a TvZ push rather than an immortal sentry allin, and the only reason i mentioned that strategy was because Zennith was using it in his arguement about lower leagues joining in discussion.
Actually SiskosGoatee I would be interested if you could be able to draw out the attack paths and where you are seeing the lack of surface area. If a map has surface area in even just one spot a Zerg can engage there. I agree with you that there can be strong pushes, but I see no evidence that supports your claims. Its one thing to say you think something is strong, and it is another to bet that someone's map will fail on the thread that is advertising it, and it another thing completely to vocally support these claims with little to no substantial evidence. So if you could provide some replays or even put in as much effort as me or eTcetRa in demonstrating what you are saying would be really helpful.
On February 18 2013 13:09 eTcetRa wrote: I wasn't telling Zennith anything of the sort, that part was directed at you.
You see pro zergs bait forcefields without losing half their army all the time in all kinds of situations, and in this case if they forcefield that ramp they just delayed their push for an entire forcefield duration.
No they haven't the ramp of which I spoke they don't even need to cross, it's a flanking path.
Having said that, the majority of my arguement was based on a TvZ push rather than an immortal sentry allin, and the only reason i mentioned that strategy was because Zennith was using it in his arguement about lower leagues joining in discussion.
Even so, the flanking paths you suggest for that are huge chokes and/or completely implausible. Your best bet is a wide arc at the other end of the rocks. If you honestly believe in the plausibility of the flanking paths you illustrated you deliver naught but evidence for Zennith's case about skill level (one I don't necessarily agree with in full).
On February 18 2013 12:22 Zennith wrote: You can't argue about whether or not it is possible to defend a high level immortal sentry on this map if you're incapable of defending against it anywhere else.
So you are telling me that the gold level map maker IronmanSC was unable to understand his own map Ohana? That everything he did just happened to be good? And that Cloud Kingdom made by the platinum level map maker Superouman cloudn't comprehend mech executed by a non-platinum level Terran and couldn't make a map which allows for that level of play? Understanding a concept and executing it are two different things.
On February 18 2013 12:22 Zennith wrote: You can't argue about whether or not it is possible to defend a high level immortal sentry on this map if you're incapable of defending against it anywhere else.
So you are telling me that the gold level map maker IronmanSC was unable to understand his own map Ohana? That everything he did just happened to be good? And that Cloud Kingdom made by the platinum level map maker Superouman cloudn't comprehend mech executed by a non-platinum level Terran and couldn't make a map which allows for that level of play? Understanding a concept and executing it are two different things.
Yes, he was unable to understand that. How many maps have both made and how many became successful and balanced? If you put a monkey on a typewriter and let him slam random keys, wait a billion years and eventually in that gibberish you will find something better than Shakespeare. I've said this before, whether a map becomes good or not is largely just luck. Have you seen the site of team Crux, how many maps they have made. How many found their way into the GSL and became good? Metropolis, Atlantis Spaceship and Dual Site are generally regarded as balanced disasters. While Terminus and TDA are quite balanced. Yet all five maps are made by the same person. Take a look at some of the other maps that Superouman and IronManSC made. Testbug? Khaydaria? Both regarded as minor flops and these are only the maps that have seen tournament circulation.
Ohana was voted by the staff as the lowest of the five finalists, CK was voted second. Ohana and CK turned out to be balanced and sustainable maps. However the same staff loved Korhal Compound and voted it first. A map which was quickly removed from ladder and tournament play because of its lamentable balance. The very same staff who with its 'understanding' was able to pinpoint a good map in Cloud Kingdom (which at the beginning before it was figured out was considered very hard for TvP) and Ohana, yet their insight spectacularly failed them for Korhal Compound? What could be at play here? There's a thing called luck.
This is the end of the argument. I emphasize point 1.
1) Dream Forge is actively monitoring the situation with DF Atlas (and TPW Silver Sands) for that matter amongst other maps of ours -- if we see an issue that we feel needs addressing we will address it to the best of our abilities. However, we will not rely on theory-crafting to make such a determination, nor will we rely on the argument of one or two vocal opinions (expert or otherwise) without substantial evidence in support of their argument. This is not to say that they are not correct and we are incorrect, but rather to say we need to see additional, observable, evidence in support of said argument.
2) The map is an official map in the IPTL and GSTL Pre-Season -- as such it is now up to those tournament organizations to determine whether the map is good or bad.
The players and teams have an obligation to play the map to the best of their abilities per the participatory rules of the tournament series they are participating in. If they feel uncomfortable on a map, that is unfortunate but it is not our job to cater to every single balance issue. If we did -- we would inevitably end up right back where we were 6 months ago with the community ticked off, tournaments organizers not rotating maps in their pools, and possible stagnation occurring. I am sorry that this makes it rough on the players -- I really am -- as such though it is no different than professional or semi-professional golfers playing different courses for different tournaments in rough conditions (rain, wind, etc. . .). At the end of the day, do the best you can in the situation you have.
3) This is one step towards procedural advancement of the map making community into a more prominent role in the Starcraft II community. It is not the beginning, it is most certainly not the end. Lets see what happens. Continuously bashing a map and/or the team behind it and the concepts therein will not yield positive results overall, and it is not appreciated. We have noted the argument and it is on our list. We apologize if you are dissatisfied, for the players we will try to take this matter under higher scrutiny. As map-makers if you do not like it: point it out, make a better map, promote said map, and get it in a tournament to prove us wrong. Please leave it at that.
The players and teams have an obligation to play the map to the best of their abilities per the participatory rules of the tournament series they are participating in. If they feel uncomfortable on a map, that is unfortunate but it is not our job to cater to every single balance issue. If we did -- we would inevitably end up right back where we were 6 months ago with the community ticked off, tournaments organizers not rotating maps in their pools, and possible stagnation occurring. I am sorry that this makes it rough on the players -- I really am -- as such though it is no different than professional or semi-professional golfers playing different courses for different tournaments in rough conditions (rain, wind, etc. . .). At the end of the day, do the best you can in the situation you have.
Ah yes, it's only the job of mappers to make FFE as easy as humanly possible on all maps even though it isn't actually a real balance concern and completely neglect to even consider ZvZ all the while considering PvP right? Let's not forget how the third can 't be too far away for PvZ and air space can't be too abundant to make drops too powerful in TvP. Oh no, mappers can't cater to balance. Unless of course it meagerly compromises the Protoss standard of living and comfort.
The players and teams have an obligation to play the map to the best of their abilities per the participatory rules of the tournament series they are participating in. If they feel uncomfortable on a map, that is unfortunate but it is not our job to cater to every single balance issue. If we did -- we would inevitably end up right back where we were 6 months ago with the community ticked off, tournaments organizers not rotating maps in their pools, and possible stagnation occurring. I am sorry that this makes it rough on the players -- I really am -- as such though it is no different than professional or semi-professional golfers playing different courses for different tournaments in rough conditions (rain, wind, etc. . .). At the end of the day, do the best you can in the situation you have.
Ah yes, it's only the job of mappers to make FFE as easy as humanly possible on all maps even though it isn't actually a real balance concern and completely neglect to even consider ZvZ all the while considering PvP right? Let's not forget how the third can 't be too far away for PvZ and air space can't be too abundant to make drops too powerful in TvP. Oh no, mappers can't cater to balance. Unless of course it meagerly compromises the Protoss standard of living and comfort.
I feel somebody is being subjective.
If you think all mappers but yourself favor FFE too much, go ahead and take the discussion to another thread; it doesn't really belong here. I am interested in what you're saying about the attack paths though. However, while little to no real evidence is available as of now, I don't think it's worth all the bashing.
A serious overlook caused polt to lose his medivac in the game between polt and creator, check this:
Very sloppy I must say, please fix this and look if there are more areas which should not be pathable but are really are. These kind of things might make tournaments more hesitant to get community maps since this map is the first new map in quite a while from what I know.
Very sloppy I must say, please fix this and look if there are more areas which should not be pathable but are really are. These kind of things might make tournaments more hesitant to get community maps since this map is the first new map in quite a while from what I know.
I would like to offer this map with the GameHeart overlay if you are interested. I would just need a copy of the map and your permission. I also ask map makers to provide a 600x600 credits image to go into the GameHeart lobby for their map.
Anyways I hope you are interested, the GameHeart project is on track to be adopted by at least a couple of major tournaments and many smaller organizations (I have been contacted by over a dozen organizations big and small) within the next couple of months so I think GameHeart could bring some attention/more users to your map, and your map could bring some much needed diversity to our map pool.
PM me here on liquid, hit me up on skype as rtschutter, or by email at TeamGameHeart@gmail.com
EPT
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/GZo5eKd.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/5biNFZJ.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/6GSs1oG.jpg)
