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SidianTheBard
United States2474 Posts
Plus if terran are able to take that base as their 4th, they'll then have to commit to taking control of the high ground behind it (aka the zerg main) or else pretty much every ranged unit the zerg has will be able to harass the worker line making the base useless anyway. It'll be a great angle for a meching terran to push through, yes, but being worried that they will take that as their 4th base and that's the main reason it's going to be imbalanced TvZ is laughable. | ||
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SiskosGoatee
Albania1482 Posts
On February 14 2013 06:59 SidianTheBard wrote: Ah yes, I guess that makes clos pos antiga not a problem. After all, the moment T secures the gold ridiculously close to Z they are on four bases and ...By the time a meching terran is looking to take a 4th, the zerg should already have 4 bases, if not more. Most zergs, when they see mech will mass expand all over the map because if the terran tries to kill those bases then their slow army will be out of position. If zerg is on 4 base, you're looking at hive tech. You're looking at brood lords, ultras, vipers, infestors, mass spinecrawlers, swarm hosts, just about everything is about to defend well enough that it won't be a problem. Plus if terran are able to take that base as their 4th, they'll then have to commit to taking control of the high ground behind it (aka the zerg main) or else pretty much every ranged unit the zerg has will be able to harass the worker line making the base useless anyway. You mean putting tanks in the vicinity and using whatever you want for air vision?It'll be a great angle for a meching terran to push through, yes, but being worried that they will take that as their 4th base and that's the main reason it's going to be imbalanced TvZ is laughable. No it's a very legitimate concern because the layout towards it uncannily favours Terran. There is no open space for one. Z absolutely cannot deny comfortably T from taking that fourth. If they have the capacity to stop T if they get it is another issue and even that is in dispute because it's much harder to mass expand and drone if Terran is a stone's throw away from you.I mean, would anyone agree with this modification of Newkirk: ![[image loading]](https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-wwc7HqM0Z3w/URwROk178dI/AAAAAAAABLY/0hRUYKbAQTw/s600/Terrain%2520154.jpg) Because this is essentially what you are looking at. Z is still free to expand away from T because it's still newkirk at the top. | ||
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moskonia
Israel1448 Posts
EDIT: You should really let this map play out a bit before "killing it", because I think pro Zerg players will be able to deal with this situation better than you might know. | ||
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SiskosGoatee
Albania1482 Posts
something similar to Atlas was released without the capacity for cross I'm pretty sure no one would take it. Or imagine an axial version of Atlas so turned that the thirds below the bases face each other in the same way my newkirk edit does and it has the exact same distances there as Atlas, no one would ever accept that. It just doesn't appear as bad because of the rotational symmetry. | ||
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Zennith
United States795 Posts
On February 14 2013 09:15 moskonia wrote: Are you kidding me? This is nothing alike, the map still has decent rush distance and while the 3rd and the 4th are close, there is still a distance between them. I am not saying that the map wouldn't be problematic, but its really not as horrible as you make it to be. EDIT: You should really let this map play out a bit before "killing it", because I think pro Zerg players will be able to deal with this situation better than you might know. Having played this map extensively in prep for IPTL, I have to thoroughly disagree. I've decided we will NEVER throw a zerg on this map, because it's incredibly rough in close positions against either race. | ||
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SiskosGoatee
Albania1482 Posts
On February 14 2013 11:38 Zennith wrote: You're a pro or something similar or a coach for a team in IPTL?Having played this map extensively in prep for IPTL, I have to thoroughly disagree. I've decided we will NEVER throw a zerg on this map, because it's incredibly rough in close positions against either race. In which case I can smell that sweet delicious 50 EUR. | ||
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OxyGenesis
United Kingdom281 Posts
On February 14 2013 19:40 SiskosGoatee wrote: You're a pro or something similar or a coach for a team in IPTL? In which case I can smell that sweet delicious 50 EUR. The bet you made wasn't that close spawns were imbalanced but for the specific issue of taking a close 4th as T against Z. But like you said, I wouldn't take the bet anyway as I'm not going to wait the entire lifetime of the map to get paid  | ||
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SiskosGoatee
Albania1482 Posts
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Zennith
United States795 Posts
On February 14 2013 19:40 SiskosGoatee wrote: You're a pro or something similar or a coach for a team in IPTL? In which case I can smell that sweet delicious 50 EUR. Hah, no, our team is made of high masters and some grandmasters players - we're in the IPTL Amateur Bracket (and have made it past the first round, which is always nice) - but the point was, we've had good reason to practice this map a lot, as it is in the map pool for IPTL. It's incredibly easy for a meching terran to abuse the terrain, and in close positions, builds like the immortal sentry all in are absolutely impossible to stop due to the lack of space and flanking ability, and the fact that delaying the push with speedlings as one would want to do is very, very hard to pull off on this map. | ||
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SiskosGoatee
Albania1482 Posts
On February 15 2013 01:42 Zennith wrote: Ah, okay, so what you are basically saying is that high master and GM players feel is that I was completely right in everything I said and my graphics exactly illustrate and detail the situation and that they should crown me queen bitch of the universe for being so right?Hah, no, our team is made of high masters and some grandmasters players - we're in the IPTL Amateur Bracket (and have made it past the first round, which is always nice) - but the point was, we've had good reason to practice this map a lot, as it is in the map pool for IPTL. It's incredibly easy for a meching terran to abuse the terrain, and in close positions, builds like the immortal sentry all in are absolutely impossible to stop due to the lack of space and flanking ability, and the fact that delaying the push with speedlings as one would want to do is very, very hard to pull off on this map. Just say it, I'll always remain normal and plain nontwithstanding the fame, money, fast cars and beautiful women. | ||
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EatThePath
United States3943 Posts
On February 15 2013 01:42 Zennith wrote: Hah, no, our team is made of high masters and some grandmasters players - we're in the IPTL Amateur Bracket (and have made it past the first round, which is always nice) - but the point was, we've had good reason to practice this map a lot, as it is in the map pool for IPTL. It's incredibly easy for a meching terran to abuse the terrain, and in close positions, builds like the immortal sentry all in are absolutely impossible to stop due to the lack of space and flanking ability, and the fact that delaying the push with speedlings as one would want to do is very, very hard to pull off on this map. Who are the zergs on your team? | ||
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Zennith
United States795 Posts
Well, I don't want to speak for them, so I'll let them post here themselves if they like. But as a high masters zerg myself (was rank 270 in NA last season according to sc2ranks), I've had pretty much the same experience. Cross spawns this map is really fun to play on, if a little small. Close positions the map against a protoss or terran can be really difficult to manage. Of course it is POSSIBLE for a Zerg to win close positions, just as it was possible on Entombed or Antiga, but it's far more difficult for the zerg player than the other races. I mean, if you take a look at the map design, the fact is that while it's very unlikely for a terran player to take the potential zerg third as a fourth (although they conceivably could), they don't really have to. The layout of the terrain in close positions makes it so that the terran player (or protoss) never has to move out on to the map, they never have to move into territory that could be considered "open". As a result, pushes like the immortal sentry all in are incredibly strong, as for the zerg to get a surround, the protoss would have to be quite careless. If they just edge along the walls and break down the rocks, then they're right below the Zerg's Main. I've seen some incredibly strong elevator play there as well, and when the immortal sentry push has gotten that close without being deterred, it is literally impossible to stop. Sure, the zerg player could do some sort of wacky all in, but you can't base a map's quality on a zerg player's ability to all in. | ||
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SigmaFiE
United States333 Posts
On February 15 2013 02:50 Zennith wrote: + Show Spoiler + Well, I don't want to speak for them, so I'll let them post here themselves if they like. But as a high masters zerg myself (was rank 270 in NA last season according to sc2ranks), I've had pretty much the same experience. Cross spawns this map is really fun to play on, if a little small. Close positions the map against a protoss or terran can be really difficult to manage. Of course it is POSSIBLE for a Zerg to win close positions, just as it was possible on Entombed or Antiga, but it's far more difficult for the zerg player than the other races. I mean, if you take a look at the map design, the fact is that while it's very unlikely for a terran player to take the potential zerg third as a fourth (although they conceivably could), they don't really have to. The layout of the terrain in close positions makes it so that the terran player (or protoss) never has to move out on to the map, they never have to move into territory that could be considered "open". As a result, pushes like the immortal sentry all in are incredibly strong, as for the zerg to get a surround, the protoss would have to be quite careless. If they just edge along the walls and break down the rocks, then they're right below the Zerg's Main. I've seen some incredibly strong elevator play there as well, and when the immortal sentry push has gotten that close without being deterred, it is literally impossible to stop. Sure, the zerg player could do some sort of wacky all in, but you can't base a map's quality on a zerg player's ability to all in. Would you say that it is innapropriate for the format you are preparing to compete in (teams) for this map to be used in its current condition, or is it simply a matter of the map is disfavorable to zergs in close position? The follow up question of course is than: should all maps for all types of leagues attempt to be completely balanced for the professional level play? (This does impose increased limitations to mapmaking so it is important) | ||
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EatThePath
United States3943 Posts
On February 15 2013 02:50 Zennith wrote: Well, I don't want to speak for them, so I'll let them post here themselves if they like. But as a high masters zerg myself (was rank 270 in NA last season according to sc2ranks), I've had pretty much the same experience. Cross spawns this map is really fun to play on, if a little small. Close positions the map against a protoss or terran can be really difficult to manage. Of course it is POSSIBLE for a Zerg to win close positions, just as it was possible on Entombed or Antiga, but it's far more difficult for the zerg player than the other races. I mean, if you take a look at the map design, the fact is that while it's very unlikely for a terran player to take the potential zerg third as a fourth (although they conceivably could), they don't really have to. The layout of the terrain in close positions makes it so that the terran player (or protoss) never has to move out on to the map, they never have to move into territory that could be considered "open". As a result, pushes like the immortal sentry all in are incredibly strong, as for the zerg to get a surround, the protoss would have to be quite careless. If they just edge along the walls and break down the rocks, then they're right below the Zerg's Main. I've seen some incredibly strong elevator play there as well, and when the immortal sentry push has gotten that close without being deterred, it is literally impossible to stop. Sure, the zerg player could do some sort of wacky all in, but you can't base a map's quality on a zerg player's ability to all in. Thanks for reply. Discarding the immo-sentry thing which is a metagame/balance problem, I am wondering what zergs have been doing against turtle terrans in adjacent spawns. I hope we get to see some demonstrative games, at least for the curiosity of this short remaining time in WoL.  | ||
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Zennith
United States795 Posts
On February 15 2013 03:44 EatThePath wrote: Thanks for reply. Discarding the immo-sentry thing which is a metagame/balance problem, I am wondering what zergs have been doing against turtle terrans in adjacent spawns. I hope we get to see some demonstrative games, at least for the curiosity of this short remaining time in WoL. I'll ask around about the meching terran. I've had one or two games against that style on the map, but not enough to be conclusive. In any case, I really think you're wrong when you talk about Immortal Sentry as a balance/metagame problem. It's more of a map issue, in my mind. Even on Ohana (which is by far one of the strongest maps for the build), if you have the lings out at the protoss base when they push with the build, you can delay delay delay and then hold off the push. The problem is, on this map, the protoss NEVER has to enter open ground, even as they do on Ohana. The protoss can always hug the walls, and it greatly reduces the number of forcefields the protoss needs to use to defend the initial ling harass, which makes the push itself much, much more potent (not that the build needs the help). I've yet to see someone defend the build on Atlas, whereas by this point, most zerg players at least have a good chance to defend it on all of the popular ladder and tournament maps at the moment (yes, even ohana). | ||
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purakushi
United States3300 Posts
Would you be willing to let me use it for my SC2 melee mod? SC2Pro Mod http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=398491 I would need a few changes to it, though. Namely, 9 minerals per main, 7 per natural, and 8 for the rest, as well as only 1 geyser per base. I can make those changes myself, of course. | ||
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EatThePath
United States3943 Posts
On February 15 2013 13:39 Zennith wrote: I'll ask around about the meching terran. I've had one or two games against that style on the map, but not enough to be conclusive. In any case, I really think you're wrong when you talk about Immortal Sentry as a balance/metagame problem. It's more of a map issue, in my mind. Even on Ohana (which is by far one of the strongest maps for the build), if you have the lings out at the protoss base when they push with the build, you can delay delay delay and then hold off the push. The problem is, on this map, the protoss NEVER has to enter open ground, even as they do on Ohana. The protoss can always hug the walls, and it greatly reduces the number of forcefields the protoss needs to use to defend the initial ling harass, which makes the push itself much, much more potent (not that the build needs the help). I've yet to see someone defend the build on Atlas, whereas by this point, most zerg players at least have a good chance to defend it on all of the popular ladder and tournament maps at the moment (yes, even ohana). Oh I agree about the potency of immortal sentry on this map, where it must be stronger than usual; I meant that as a soon-to-be HotS map there's more leeway for trying things that don't work in WoL. The tank push issue seems more permanent than immortal sentry which might be a dead strategy, though maybe not. I also wonder if there's something zergs haven't discovered yet in WoL for defeating immo sentry, independent of map considerations. Although to be sure, increasing push distance and requiring passage through open areas can improve zergs chances, which would otherwise be a pressing consideration. | ||
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Gfire
United States1699 Posts
On February 15 2013 13:39 Zennith wrote: I'll ask around about the meching terran. I've had one or two games against that style on the map, but not enough to be conclusive. In any case, I really think you're wrong when you talk about Immortal Sentry as a balance/metagame problem. It's more of a map issue, in my mind. Even on Ohana (which is by far one of the strongest maps for the build), if you have the lings out at the protoss base when they push with the build, you can delay delay delay and then hold off the push. The problem is, on this map, the protoss NEVER has to enter open ground, even as they do on Ohana. The protoss can always hug the walls, and it greatly reduces the number of forcefields the protoss needs to use to defend the initial ling harass, which makes the push itself much, much more potent (not that the build needs the help). I've yet to see someone defend the build on Atlas, whereas by this point, most zerg players at least have a good chance to defend it on all of the popular ladder and tournament maps at the moment (yes, even ohana). I don't think you can remove any of the variables (metagame, map, balance,) so it's impossible to say it is a problem with one of those things. You can only show it's a problem with a specific combination of those things. But where does that leave us? I feel that maps should be a last resort to fixing game problems. Specific things like Immortal Sentry, I mean. Since the balance and metagame are still changing a lot (especially in hots,) we have the opportunity to not restrict our maps for the sake of specific issues. Just because a problem can be fixed with maps, that doesn't mean that's the best way to do it... Only if the metagame/balance refuses to change should we eliminate entire styles of maps to deal with a build like that. Unlike BW we should not be forced into this situation, although we naively did try to fix problems in WoL and the game suffered for it, especially in ZvP. This is my view on it at this point in time... I think it can work because it's HotS and Blizzard will be willing to admit there could be problems, and they certainly won't blame the maps for anything, so as long as the map makers and tournament organizers just give it time when there's an issue and let Blizz do their job all will be well, right? This is the one thing that the experience of the Korean scene has actually hurt in... because they are used to balancing the game with maps as in BW, and since Blizzard is slower in fixing problems on their own, we ended up with a game where the maps were relied on for balance and thus all the maps ended up being very similar, and then when we started seeing balance issues that couldn't be solved with maps (BL/Infestor) the game kinda fell apart. Also since we would fix a specific problem in one matchup with the maps, then the other matchups would become more stagnant because of it even if they would be playable on other maps. This is my theory anyway. Considering this and the generally optimistic conclusions I'm coming to these days, aside from hellbats, I'm pretty satisfied with this map getting in... We'll see how it goes. (Not that I regret the whole WoL experience... Very good learning experience and also much of what happened in map changes were needed for the game to grow, mostly with the 2011 macro-maps which actually allowed more than a few bases, and focused on more overall issues with gameplay. Later on when we started dealing with Stephano max roach styles with maps it kinda went down hill.) | ||
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SiskosGoatee
Albania1482 Posts
That bet is still on in either case. This map will either be removed or forced cross sooner or later 100%. I wouldn't be surprised if GSL already made it cross. This map without cross is significantly more broken than antiga without cross in my opinion. It's not just specific strats, it's specific matchups. With close enabled this map will show dismal winrate. | ||
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ScorpSCII
Denmark499 Posts
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