EPTIf you were to take the cross third away from that player as your third or even quick fourth base, how exactly are they going to pressure it without having to send quite a lot of units as you have the mobility advantage? Especially when they're going mech.
[M] (2) DF Atlas - Page 5
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Qikz
United Kingdom12056 Posts
If you were to take the cross third away from that player as your third or even quick fourth base, how exactly are they going to pressure it without having to send quite a lot of units as you have the mobility advantage? Especially when they're going mech. | ||
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SiskosGoatee
Albania1482 Posts
On February 16 2013 20:52 Qikz wrote: It's not pressuring the third that is a problem, it's pressuring the nat.The zerg players saying it's extremely hard to play on this map is a fair point, but have any of you tried to take far away bases like a zerg would do on fighting spirit? If you were to take the cross third away from that player as your third or even quick fourth base, how exactly are they going to pressure it without having to send quite a lot of units as you have the mobility advantage? Especially when they're going mech. As we said. T/P can can arrive at Z's nat without going through open space once on this map in close pos and counter attacks are also very hard to pull off, on top of this, there are expansions located on that path. | ||
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llIH
Norway2147 Posts
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SiskosGoatee
Albania1482 Posts
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Zennith
United States795 Posts
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SiskosGoatee
Albania1482 Posts
The map also from my experience is P favoured in TvP. P can get up 3 bases in any position without T being able to offer much contest. There's of course also the thing that I went 9-2 versus timetwister I believe in TvP. Lost 1 to a 4gate which snuck a pylon into my base and I lost on this map as well. I admit that I wasn't taking him as seriously as I should at the start but it does say something that this was the only macro game I lost while I quite handily won the other macro game where I was also doing some-what bizarre things and wasn't thinking well from time to time. Apart from that, I played some other TvP's on this map and never won one against players I'm usually even enough against. It does feel quite hard to pressure P on 3 bases. But again, we will see, but if anyone is up for it, that 50 EUR is still down. | ||
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Veloh15
United States161 Posts
Anyway Siskos you especially are jumping to alot of conclusions, and saying that this map is worse then Antiga close boggles my mind. | ||
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SiskosGoatee
Albania1482 Posts
Anyway, the primary reason that I think this map in close is hard for Z is because I played on it as Z and it felt like there was nothing I could do. Antiga still gives you surface area, this map doesn't. To say it boggles your mind that this map si worse than Antiga in close is just your average trendy anti Blizzard biasjerk. The primary things with Antiga in close position was the distance and how close your third is to his main by air or vice versa. That's manageable, the fact that they can push you without ever venturing into open space on this map is not and if this map was made by Blizzard everyone would take a turn relieving their proverbial bowels on it and demanding cross only. | ||
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Zennith
United States795 Posts
On February 18 2013 06:07 Veloh15 wrote: I think you guys are over thinking this way too much. Its not too strange to see Koreans all in on a map which they may have practiced on only a couple times. Also this being HoTS and Zergs not having much success lately this would only encourage someone to all-in. I have played around 10-ish games on this map over the course of the beta, and I have had no trouble with the middle of the map. And won almost all of those games. Anyway Siskos you especially are jumping to alot of conclusions, and saying that this map is worse then Antiga close boggles my mind. The point isn't the middle of the map at all - the point is that in close positions, terran and protoss players can push without ever needing to cross the middle or any open ground at all. What race/level are you? | ||
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NewSunshine
United States5938 Posts
On February 18 2013 06:22 SiskosGoatee wrote: How can I not jump to conclusions when I have 50 EUR on the table no is seems willing to pick up? I suppose, by this measure, anyone who pleads the 5th(i.e. shuts up) when accused of something is automatically guilty. | ||
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SiskosGoatee
Albania1482 Posts
Besides, people pleading the fifth have nothing to lose. The fifth is designed to have people nothing to lose should they shut up even if they are innocent, the thing is that in this case, there's 50 EUR up for grabs if you're innocent and speak out. | ||
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SigmaFiE
United States333 Posts
On February 18 2013 07:47 SiskosGoatee wrote: Besides, people pleading the fifth have nothing to lose. The fifth is designed to have people nothing to lose should they shut up even if they are innocent, the thing is that in this case, there's 50 EUR up for grabs if you're innocent and speak out. Wrong! The fifth is a legal protection interpreted by SCOTUS granted by the US Constitution to protect against self-incrimination. Guilt/innocence is irrelevant as it is a right executed prior to the majority of legal proceedings in a criminal case. To say that those persons pleading the fifth have nothing to lose is an incredibly naive view of this right. It's intention is to grant due process by the criminal justice system, protecting persons charged with a crime from self incrimination until they have spoken with an attorney. It is part of the Miranda rights. And guess what? There are limitations on it as well. | ||
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SiskosGoatee
Albania1482 Posts
On February 18 2013 08:04 SigmaFiE wrote: Yeah, so they still have nothing to lose. People arresting them must instruct them of their right to remain silent and a jury cannot hold it against the defended to not testify or say anything at all (in theory, but meh, Jury trials..)Wrong! The fifth is a legal protection interpreted by SCOTUS granted by the US Constitution to protect against self-incrimination. Guilt/innocence is irrelevant as it is a right executed prior to the majority of legal proceedings in a criminal case. To say that those persons pleading the fifth have nothing to lose is an incredibly naive view of this right. It's intention is to grant due process by the criminal justice system, protecting persons charged with a crime from self incrimination until they have spoken with an attorney. It is part of the Miranda rights. And guess what? There are limitations on it as well. The point is that even if you are guilty and you know you're guilty, it's still better to say nothing at all. In this case, if you are right and you know you are right, you can earn 50 EUR. Therefore you can't hold it against someone who pleads the fifth because even if they are guilty, it's still the best thing to do. In this case not so much, you could earn something if you do speak up. | ||
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Veloh15
United States161 Posts
The point isn't the middle of the map at all - the point is that in close positions, terran and protoss players can push without ever needing to cross the middle or any open ground at all. What race/level are you? I am a diamond level Zerg, but asking for league is kinda elitist especially when discussing concepts. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/uQ9bsZG.jpg) If you look at the 2 base attack paths they are actually very similar. Although Atlas does seem more chokey there is still one almost unblockable counter attack path and one which is blockable. It is also important to note that on Antiga the distances are much shorter for the push to reach a base. Both also have points where a Zerg can force out force fields, or what have you, vs an Immortal all in. The biggest difference between the two is that on Antiga an aggressor can plow through the 3rd and walk into the natural relatively safely. But I don't think that is really what you guys were complaining about. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/vxcsVnU.jpg) In a situation where a Protoss is doing a 3 base all in or a Terran is doing a maxed Terran mech push things do get hairy. But still I don't see this being really imbalanced for those pushes. Although the distance is shorter for the Atlas push the point where an engagement will happen is much closer to the defender's bases, and not in the shadow of the aggressor's main. But what I think is Atlas's saving grace is that the attacker will have to walk up that tight ramp where I think a strong defense can be made. Obviously this would be one of the strongest pushes on this map but I hardly think it would break the map. That conclusion is completely unfounded. | ||
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moskonia
Israel1448 Posts
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Veloh15
United States161 Posts
On February 18 2013 11:17 moskonia wrote: Veloh why compare antiga close spawns? Its not used in the competitive play for quite some time now, you should use current maps if you want to make a point about map balance. Siskos was claiming that Antiga close was better than Atlas close just trying to make a point  | ||
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SiskosGoatee
Albania1482 Posts
On February 18 2013 11:05 Veloh15 wrote: No, it's not similar, look at the red line and look how much of it is through open space, at best P can hug a single wall. On Atlas, P warlks through a corridor except that path just after the rocks, and even that part only gives you around 210 degrees surface area on P. P has to constantly venture into the open on Antiga to push Z. On Atlas not so much, it's corridor after corridor.I am a diamond level Zerg, but asking for league is kinda elitist especially when discussing concepts. If you look at the 2 base attack paths they are actually very similar. Although Atlas does seem more chokey there is still one almost unblockable counter attack path and one which is blockable. It is also important to note that on Antiga the distances are much shorter for the push to reach a base. Both also have points where a Zerg can force out force fields, or what have you, vs an Immortal all in. The biggest difference between the two is that on Antiga an aggressor can plow through the 3rd and walk into the natural relatively safely. But I don't think that is really what you guys were complaining about. In a situation where a Protoss is doing a 3 base all in or a Terran is doing a maxed Terran mech push things do get hairy. But still I don't see this being really imbalanced for those pushes. Although the distance is shorter for the Atlas push the point where an engagement will happen is much closer to the defender's bases, and not in the shadow of the aggressor's main. But what I think is Atlas's saving grace is that the attacker will have to walk up that tight ramp where I think a strong defense can be made. Obviously this would be one of the strongest pushes on this map but I hardly think it would break the map. That conclusion is completely unfounded. On February 18 2013 11:17 moskonia wrote: Veloh why compare antiga close spawns? Its not used in the competitive play for quite some time now, you should use current maps if you want to make a point about map balance. Because I made the comparison and argued that close pos on this map is worse for Z than on Antiga and asserted that people who think otherwise are just paort of the anti Blizzard biasjerk. | ||
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eTcetRa
Australia822 Posts
Anyway Siskos you especially are jumping to alot of conclusions, and saying that this map is worse then Antiga close boggles my mind. I have to agree with this, you are complaining about a hell of a lot of nothing. Stating there are no areas that are open enough for Zerg to engage is just outright crap. If you are playing zerg, abuse your mobility and get flanks like you are bloody supopsed to. There are multiple spots in close positions where this is very easily possible. Stop asking to be coddled by the maps because you are too lazy to play your race properly. Since you are fond of pictures (lol at that idiotic comparison to Newkirk with half the middle taken out, seriously?) I will paint one for you, and mind the shitty paint, I am at work... ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/jfmBUTv.jpg) As you should be able to see there are three very clear spots where the defendign zerg and set up for a flank, and these arent the only spots nor probably the best. | ||
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SiskosGoatee
Albania1482 Posts
On February 18 2013 11:45 eTcetRa wrote: That's nice pumpkin, but the discussion was about when P/T break down the rocks and take the attack path through the chokes. Which you would've known if you read more than a single word of the discussion. Veloh also understands this just fine because he or she at least reads what's being said.I have to agree with this, you are complaining about a hell of a lot of nothing. Stating there are no areas that are open enough for Zerg to engage is just outright crap. If you are playing zerg, abuse your mobility and get flanks like you are bloody supopsed to. There are multiple spots in close positions where this is very easily possible. Stop asking to be coddled by the maps because you are too lazy to play your race properly. Since you are fond of pictures (lol at that idiotic comparison to Newkirk with half the middle taken out, seriously?) I will paint one for you, and mind the shitty paint, I am at work... As you should be able to see there are three very clear spots where the defendign zerg and set up for a flank, and these arent the only spots nor probably the best. | ||
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Zennith
United States795 Posts
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