EPTOneGoal: A better SC2 [Project Hub] - Page 52
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ItWhoSpeaks
United States362 Posts
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ItWhoSpeaks
United States362 Posts
On April 03 2013 15:05 sluggaslamoo wrote: One of the main problems with a lot of the units in SC2 is their attack rate is too high making them more efficent when they are NOT microed. If I got that right (in the editor attack-speed actually refers to the delay between attacks) seems to exacerbate the problem by making them attack twice as fast. SC2 would benefit immensely from lower attack speeds. Lowering the rate of fire for every unit would allow players to do other things while microing their units. For example, Mutalisk micro in BW is accompanied with making drones or tech structures while the Muta is moving away from the target and then going back to the mutas when the attack cooldown finishes and shooting again. Mutas/Vultures/Reavers had very long cooldowns and high burst damage, which is why they are often used as opening units because they can be microed on their own against a large army (1 vulture vs infinite zerglings, 11 mutalisk vs 3 control groups of bio, 1 Reaver vs 3 hatch hydralisk allin), while being able to macro at 100% efficiency. Mutalisks in SC2 are microed a lot less because of their very much increased attack speed. At a certain attack speed this becomes impossible, and you have to baby sit the units while sacrificing tech/economy, making micro-ing the unit not worthwhile at all (no its not a cost/contention situation, you will always see less micro in favor of macro, allowing players to do both at maximum efficiency allows units to be used at their maximal capacity all the time). Probably should keep that in mind for all your units. Really the colossus is an atrocious unit that needs to be removed. No amount of tweaking will fix its horrible design, even if you had a reaver with a colossus model it would still be terrible because it looks like a piece of crap. The way to fix the Colossus, is to just get rid of it. Bring back the Reaver, I don't care if people say this isn't BW, getting rid of the reaver was like getting rid of the siege tank for Terran. If tanks were removed from SC2, I don't even know what the state of TvZ would be like. You can pretty much blame the horrible state of every PvX matchup due to the removal of the Reaver. We actually managed to make the Colossus work. It is better as a support and power harass unit. We have dozens of replays showcasing that it does what the Reaver did in a way that doesn't cheat skilled players with random numbers. Additionally, The Reaver could turn up in onegoal, but it will never make it into the main game. And we still want to see positive change within the main game. The Reaver is not central to the Protoss experience, but the dynamics of a high burst damage, low attack speed unit did contribute to it. The Colossus can and does fufill that role in OneGoal. | ||
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StandAloneComplex
65 Posts
On April 03 2013 15:59 ItWhoSpeaks wrote: We aren't bringing back old units. It's one of our rules. You should look at what we have done with the new Colossus. It does what the Reaver did without the terrible scarab AI. Where you refering to the reaver alone, or also to the diamondback? Any chance of seeing some enemy base coruption mechanic beeing implemented for the zerg, further down the patchline ? | ||
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sluggaslamoo
Australia4494 Posts
On April 03 2013 16:09 ItWhoSpeaks wrote: We actually managed to make the Colossus work. It is better as a support and power harass unit. We have dozens of replays showcasing that it does what the Reaver did in a way that doesn't cheat skilled players with random numbers. Additionally, The Reaver could turn up in onegoal, but it will never make it into the main game. And we still want to see positive change within the main game. The Reaver is not central to the Protoss experience, but the dynamics of a high burst damage, low attack speed unit did contribute to it. The Colossus can and does fufill that role in OneGoal. I saw the new colossus, but it doesn't fullfill many of the same roles that the reaver does. One of the most common mistakes about BW I see people make is that they say the reaver is a support/harass unit, and indeed this is the same mistake blizzard made when replacing it. Harassment is actually the Reaver's secondary role, and its primary role is as a siege unit (a support unit would be a medivac). The reaver is a seige unit, the colossus (regardless of what blizzard says) is not. Siege units are IMMOBILE and POSITIONAL units that are used to extremely cost-effective defend or contain an area without much support. Your colossus is not this. 2 tanks or 2 lurkers or 2 reavers above a ramp, will do absolutely devastating damage to any army that tries to go up the ramp, and will beat an almost infinite supply of units. If indeed the colossus fulfilled the same role as the reaver it should be able to hold against almost infinite supplies of units on its own in the right position. The colossus should be able to do the same thing, but from the videos I can easily tell it cannot. Why is this important? Its absolutely fundamental to any strategy game to have units with these properties [real siege units] (ironically most modern strategy games do not have units like this). If you can't play a pseudo game of GO in an RTS, you may as well not call it a strategy game, and call it poker with mechanics. The scarab isn't random at all either, you know when they are going to or not going to dud, and you know the environment which causes it to dud/not dud. The only people who say that are ones with little experience in the game but may have watched a lot. I won't go further on this though because I'd be derailing the thread, but just wanted to input, keep doing what you are doing. Good luck  | ||
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Archerofaiur
United States4101 Posts
On April 03 2013 15:59 ItWhoSpeaks wrote: We aren't bringing back old units. It's one of our rules. Im curious on the rational behind this. | ||
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purakushi
United States3301 Posts
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ItWhoSpeaks
United States362 Posts
On April 03 2013 18:24 sluggaslamoo wrote: I saw the new colossus, but it doesn't fullfill many of the same roles that the reaver does. One of the most common mistakes about BW I see people make is that they say the reaver is a support/harass unit, and indeed this is the same mistake blizzard made when replacing it. Harassment is actually the Reaver's secondary role, and its primary role is as a siege unit (a support unit would be a medivac). The reaver is a seige unit, the colossus (regardless of what blizzard says) is not. Siege units are IMMOBILE and POSITIONAL units that are used to extremely cost-effective defend or contain an area without much support. Your colossus is not this. 2 tanks or 2 lurkers or 2 reavers above a ramp, will do absolutely devastating damage to any army that tries to go up the ramp, and will beat an almost infinite supply of units. If indeed the colossus fulfilled the same role as the reaver it should be able to hold against almost infinite supplies of units on its own in the right position. The colossus should be able to do the same thing, but from the videos I can easily tell it cannot. Why is this important? Its absolutely fundamental to any strategy game to have units with these properties [real siege units] (ironically most modern strategy games do not have units like this). If you can't play a pseudo game of GO in an RTS, you may as well not call it a strategy game, and call it poker with mechanics. The scarab isn't random at all either, you know when they are going to or not going to dud, and you know the environment which causes it to dud/not dud. The only people who say that are ones with little experience in the game but may have watched a lot. I won't go further on this though because I'd be derailing the thread, but just wanted to input, keep doing what you are doing. Good luck The dud "mechanic" was one of the single worst aspects of BW as an esport. Granted, it was a short list. But no, it was effectively random. You could tell what could probably would make a scarab tard out, but at the end of the day, Reaver drops were at the mercy of the pathing. Stork is particularly famous for having terrible luck with Reaver drops. It wasn't uncommon for him to serve several perfect Reaver volleys only to have them fail, putting him behind. There simply isn't enough player agency to justify the mechanic in any serious modern game. Your definition of a Seige unit is one that is emergent from high level BW. In actuality, there is only one critiery for something being a "siege unit" and that is having an attack range greater than 7, the range of standard base defenses. Now, the Colossus is a problematic unit in HotS because it combines siege range, high dps, and above average mobility. And that is a problem. We decided to hit its DPS and give it burst damage in an aoe that requires good aim and positioning to be optimal. If you don't think this new aoe can hold a ramp, I would love to obs with you sometime. A colossus and a wall can hold vs pretty much any melee composition aside from ultras. Also, the OG tempest is a much more interesting pressure/siege unit than the Reaver ever was. The Reaver's major contribution to BW was the OMG factor of harass, where you could see 11 workers evaporate in the blink of an eye, not working down bunkers and tanks. For better and worse, the Reaver can't come back. Unlike Starbow or SC2BW. It is our stated goal to improve SC2. Blizzard has a few lines they are not willing to cross, and one of them is to bring back old units. This stings because we love the Lurker. But rules are rules. Until they say otherwise, we will be sticking to new units or units of our own making. | ||
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ItWhoSpeaks
United States362 Posts
On April 03 2013 17:58 StandAloneComplex wrote: Where you refering to the reaver alone, or also to the diamondback? Any chance of seeing some enemy base coruption mechanic beeing implemented for the zerg, further down the patchline ? What exactly was fun or engaging about the Corruptor's corruption mechanic? | ||
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Archerofaiur
United States4101 Posts
On April 04 2013 01:00 ItWhoSpeaks wrote: What exactly was fun or engaging about the Corruptor's corruption mechanic? Not the best example of a fun unit but the idea of a single target debuff requiring player skill/micro is not without value. What is wrong with "old units"? | ||
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Hider
Denmark9433 Posts
On April 04 2013 02:11 Archerofaiur wrote: Not the best example of a fun unit but the idea of a single target debuff requiring player skill/micro is not without value. What is wrong with "old units"? Whether its a debuff or whether its damage (such as snipe) is IMO quite irrelevant. As long as there is no real counter micro opportunities for the opponent the abilities is quite boring (unless it incentivizes a certain gameplay which creates fun games - corruption doesn't do that though). Snipe at least has the feedback vs snipe battle going, though it isn't particularly interesting as you can't react to either feedback or snipe after they have been casted (you have to do it preemptively). | ||
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StandAloneComplex
65 Posts
On April 04 2013 01:00 ItWhoSpeaks wrote: What exactly was fun or engaging about the Corruptor's corruption mechanic? With base corruption i dont mean the mechanic of the corrupter. I meant sneaking unseen behind enemy lines and infesting buildings/ units of the enemy to controll them permanently. Using his own buildings against him, something like this. I was refering to my unitidea: The infiltrater. + Show Spoiler + What zerg really needs is some guerrilla warfare unit which can sneak unseen behind enemy lines in the style of the changeling, some "super"-changeling which can actually do damage by spying, infecting buildings and blowing itself up in the enemy army and distracting the enemy in his own area.It doesn't make so much physical damage but very much psychological damage , by distracting the enemy and bringing him out of his comfort zone. Think about it, one thing which is totally underrepresented in the zerg gameplay of starcraft 2 is infesting the enemy base. Zerg is the perfect race implementing guerrilla warfare . As an genetic very adaptable race it really should have some parasite-gameplay beyond the infestors lame shenanigans. The Zerg needs: The infiltrator -It should walk like a spider on the ground , and should be able to move under ground with the back of it showing out of the ground.The back can morph into some perfect imitation of an enemy turret,supply depot, cannon,pylon, spine, spore when you come near such an object by reaching the enemy base .And you can move with this imitation on your back burrowed under ground, but you should do it not in the middle of the enemy base , because a moving supply depot is a very obvious indicator for the enemy that something is not right.You can not be unveiled by scan or some detector like the changeling cant ether. With perfect imitation i mean if you morph it into a spinecrawler, for example ,it can attack like a spinecrawler the enemy base with exact the same damage like a spine can do.Think about it, how funny would it be, when the enemy sees how one of "his own" spinecrawler turns against him and starts attacking him.Same for turret,cannon,spore. You can also give the enemy control over the fake object, that it stands still and he can control it like his own and in the right moment you take away the control. -But that's just one ability of the infiltrator and not its best . It can also blow it self up in the middle of the enemy army (the damage should not be too big but noticeable). -And the best ability is, that it can infect other units and buildings. It crawls onto the enemy building/unit explodes on it and sets free an fungal, which is growing on the building/unit rapidly . And if the enemy doesn't target fire the fungal on the building/unit quick enough than it gets corrupted. Corrupted units can be controlled permanently by the zerg enemy, perhaps they have lower health than the unit had before infection. Corrupted buildings are growing slowly creep on the ground and if that creep reaches another building this building is getting also infected by the fungal and the enemy has also some time to kill the fungal on this one,.... If you manage to connect the creep from your homebase with the creep of the corrupted buildings than you can slowly stomach it and gain minerals/ gas from it at a slowly but steady pace. Sorry for the unclearness. So is there any chance of seeing something like this in some later patch. Generally spoken , im curious about what are your further plans for new zerg units. Will we see more mutations and infestation abilitys, which go beyond the abilitys of the infestor?And what about zerg airplay ? Zerg needs some airzergling which can morph in something like the good old BW airbaeling something like the wesp and an fix for the viper: The wesp. + Show Spoiler + The wesp: You have invented an antiair unit to keep up with the skytoss and targetfirering vikings, that's good. I still think the unit could be more versatile by making it into this: To produce the unit , you need a building which is called "wespnest". You can build this straight after the spawning pool.And you can upgrade it 2 times. The unit gains new support abilitys by upgrading the hatchery into lair and upgrading the lair into hive. The unit gains new attack abilitys by upgrading the wespnest itself (2-times possible). Its basically an zergling for the air ,with weak attack ,but producable in mass.And it has some interesting support abilitys.It also can morph into the scourge(airbaeling/lategame) In its weakest form the unit sits on the ground, while being idle and it can not be separated for longer than x-seconds from the creep or it will die/lose hp.In this form you can use it for scouting, if your creepspread is good.If you don't move it, it will land on the ground and sit their.If you move it it will fly. Support abilitys: Uprading hatchery to lair: -The unit can stay of creep as long as it wants. -The unit can collect minerals, but you can not auto-route it like drones. You have to klick each time on the mins and on lair. So good players which have the apm will gain some extra mins. Upgrading lair to hive: -The unit can burrow into the ground Attack abilitys: upgradeing the wespnest to level 2(needs lair): -the wesp gains a melee attack against air. It lands on the enemy airship and starts attacking it with its sharp arms/legs. If enough wesps land on one enemy airship,the airship can not move (similar to zergling surrounding enemy's) Upgrading the wespnest to level 3(needs hive): - The wesp is able to morph into the scourge. Its basically an air-baeling then and if it connects to an enemy airship it deals area-damage.The explosives in it can be used to boost it a short time, but if you use half of the explosives in it for x time boosting you will only make have the damage after connecting. This is a great unit for earlygame: scouting midgame: collecting more mins and guarding your base, swarmhosts lategame: unburrow and exploding into skytoss or mass vikings (air-mines) It needs apm to mine, so good player have something to do, improve. It can be upgraded 5 times with different ability. After each upgrade its visuals change like the change from zergling to speedling etc. The viper: -Give it its ability back, that it can spit one any own unit and that unit becomes than an detector for a short time.An glowing eye grows on the back of this unit so enemy and you can see that this unit is an detector. Overseer are so slow and zergs gamestyle is fast , so with mines on the field its an stop and go gameplay by waiting all the time on the slow overseer!! Sorry for poor english. Keep doing such good work. And what about the diamondback , i know his movement looked clumpy. but his mechanic was spot on, i think. Maybe some movementfix to make it look less buggy with an modelchange if the old polymodel is not makable into something move less clumpy, but nothing y cant fix. Why did you take it out of the game ? | ||
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Trozz
Canada3456 Posts
I'll definitely try this. It might beat ladder. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9433 Posts
-It should walk like a spider on the ground , and should be able to move under ground with the back of it showing out of the ground.The back can morph into some perfect imitation of an enemy turret,supply depot, cannon,pylon, spine, spore when you come near such an object by reaching the enemy base I kinda like the creativity of a "changeling" harassoriented unit. However, morphing into a static structure is definitely not the correct solution (static structures are microless and thus just extremely boring IMO). Anyway we shouldn't just put out random units into the game. We should first identify problems (example; zerg no early game harass options), then the solution (new unit that can get through walloffs, modified version nydus/overlord drop tier 1) before actually suggesting a new unit. I think I am now alone in not understanding why the wesp unit is neccesary in the game. So could you please analyze the two prior steps in order to make us understand why the wesp is neccesary? | ||
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ItWhoSpeaks
United States362 Posts
On April 04 2013 04:30 StandAloneComplex wrote: With base corruption i dont mean the mechanic of the corrupter. I meant sneaking unseen behind enemy lines and infesting buildings/ units of the enemy to controll them permanently. Using his own buildings against him, something like this. I was refering to my unitidea: The infiltrater. + Show Spoiler + What zerg really needs is some guerrilla warfare unit which can sneak unseen behind enemy lines in the style of the changeling, some "super"-changeling which can actually do damage by spying, infecting buildings and blowing itself up in the enemy army and distracting the enemy in his own area.It doesn't make so much physical damage but very much psychological damage , by distracting the enemy and bringing him out of his comfort zone. Think about it, one thing which is totally underrepresented in the zerg gameplay of starcraft 2 is infesting the enemy base. Zerg is the perfect race implementing guerrilla warfare . As an genetic very adaptable race it really should have some parasite-gameplay beyond the infestors lame shenanigans. The Zerg needs: The infiltrator -It should walk like a spider on the ground , and should be able to move under ground with the back of it showing out of the ground.The back can morph into some perfect imitation of an enemy turret,supply depot, cannon,pylon, spine, spore when you come near such an object by reaching the enemy base .And you can move with this imitation on your back burrowed under ground, but you should do it not in the middle of the enemy base , because a moving supply depot is a very obvious indicator for the enemy that something is not right.You can not be unveiled by scan or some detector like the changeling cant ether. With perfect imitation i mean if you morph it into a spinecrawler, for example ,it can attack like a spinecrawler the enemy base with exact the same damage like a spine can do.Think about it, how funny would it be, when the enemy sees how one of "his own" spinecrawler turns against him and starts attacking him.Same for turret,cannon,spore. You can also give the enemy control over the fake object, that it stands still and he can control it like his own and in the right moment you take away the control. -But that's just one ability of the infiltrator and not its best . It can also blow it self up in the middle of the enemy army (the damage should not be too big but noticeable). -And the best ability is, that it can infect other units and buildings. It crawls onto the enemy building/unit explodes on it and sets free an fungal, which is growing on the building/unit rapidly . And if the enemy doesn't target fire the fungal on the building/unit quick enough than it gets corrupted. Corrupted units can be controlled permanently by the zerg enemy, perhaps they have lower health than the unit had before infection. Corrupted buildings are growing slowly creep on the ground and if that creep reaches another building this building is getting also infected by the fungal and the enemy has also some time to kill the fungal on this one,.... If you manage to connect the creep from your homebase with the creep of the corrupted buildings than you can slowly stomach it and gain minerals/ gas from it at a slowly but steady pace. Sorry for the unclearness. So is there any chance of seeing something like this in some later patch. Generally spoken , im curious about what are your further plans for new zerg units. Will we see more mutations and infestation abilitys, which go beyond the abilitys of the infestor?And what about zerg airplay ? Zerg needs some airzergling which can morph in something like the good old BW airbaeling something like the wesp and an fix for the viper: The wesp. + Show Spoiler + The wesp: You have invented an antiair unit to keep up with the skytoss and targetfirering vikings, that's good. I still think the unit could be more versatile by making it into this: To produce the unit , you need a building which is called "wespnest". You can build this straight after the spawning pool.And you can upgrade it 2 times. The unit gains new support abilitys by upgrading the hatchery into lair and upgrading the lair into hive. The unit gains new attack abilitys by upgrading the wespnest itself (2-times possible). Its basically an zergling for the air ,with weak attack ,but producable in mass.And it has some interesting support abilitys.It also can morph into the scourge(airbaeling/lategame) In its weakest form the unit sits on the ground, while being idle and it can not be separated for longer than x-seconds from the creep or it will die/lose hp.In this form you can use it for scouting, if your creepspread is good.If you don't move it, it will land on the ground and sit their.If you move it it will fly. Support abilitys: Uprading hatchery to lair: -The unit can stay of creep as long as it wants. -The unit can collect minerals, but you can not auto-route it like drones. You have to klick each time on the mins and on lair. So good players which have the apm will gain some extra mins. Upgrading lair to hive: -The unit can burrow into the ground Attack abilitys: upgradeing the wespnest to level 2(needs lair): -the wesp gains a melee attack against air. It lands on the enemy airship and starts attacking it with its sharp arms/legs. If enough wesps land on one enemy airship,the airship can not move (similar to zergling surrounding enemy's) Upgrading the wespnest to level 3(needs hive): - The wesp is able to morph into the scourge. Its basically an air-baeling then and if it connects to an enemy airship it deals area-damage.The explosives in it can be used to boost it a short time, but if you use half of the explosives in it for x time boosting you will only make have the damage after connecting. This is a great unit for earlygame: scouting midgame: collecting more mins and guarding your base, swarmhosts lategame: unburrow and exploding into skytoss or mass vikings (air-mines) It needs apm to mine, so good player have something to do, improve. It can be upgraded 5 times with different ability. After each upgrade its visuals change like the change from zergling to speedling etc. The viper: -Give it its ability back, that it can spit one any own unit and that unit becomes than an detector for a short time.An glowing eye grows on the back of this unit so enemy and you can see that this unit is an detector. Overseer are so slow and zergs gamestyle is fast , so with mines on the field its an stop and go gameplay by waiting all the time on the slow overseer!! Sorry for poor english. Keep doing such good work. And what about the diamondback , i know his movement looked clumpy. but his mechanic was spot on, i think. Maybe some movementfix to make it look less buggy with an model change if the old polymodel is not makable into something move less clumpy, but nothing y cant fix. Why did you take it out of the game ? We are looking a low tier harass unit for Z. It may or may not happen because Zerglings and Banelings are so central to Zerg play and are fun and effective units. I would rather have those easy to understand, versatile units than another gimmick like the old Reaper. We will talk about it. Don't expect it to show up anytime soon though. This sort of stuff takes time to mull over. Your unit design is better suited to a MOBA or a WC3 RTS, not starcraft. it is complex and context dependent. It isn't clean and sleek. Overseers are supply free detectors. If you don't have enough stationed its your own fault. Zerg also has turrets that can get up and move around. As for the Diamondback. We can't get it to look good, and frankly, it was clunky. The Warhound's numbers tether it to mines and tanks, otherwise they become easy to pick off. Its the same dynamic, but it looks solid and professional while still providing that strong positional gameplay. | ||
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StandAloneComplex
65 Posts
On April 04 2013 06:19 ItWhoSpeaks wrote: We are looking a low tier harass unit for Z. It may or may not happen because Zerglings and Banelings are so central to Zerg play and are fun and effective units. I would rather have those easy to understand, versatile units than another gimmick like the old Reaper. We will talk about it. Don't expect it to show up anytime soon though. This sort of stuff takes time to mull over. Your unit design is better suited to a MOBA or a WC3 RTS, not starcraft. it is complex and context dependent. It isn't clean and sleek. Overseers are supply free detectors. If you don't have enough stationed its your own fault. Zerg also has turrets that can get up and move around. As for the Diamondback. We can't get it to look good, and frankly, it was clunky. The Warhound's numbers tether it to mines and tanks, otherwise they become easy to pick off. Its the same dynamic, but it looks solid and professional while still providing that strong positional gameplay. Thanks for the quick answer. Y the unitmovement looked really clunky, which was certainly not your fault, you must work with what the editor gives you. Im interested how the editor works? Can you only rework in the game existing models or can you also create new unitmodels ? To the infiltrator: Comand and Conquer: Generals had some simular basemanipulating mechanic,and that was really not a bad game. So dont put it in the corner of DOTA or league of legends. That would be very unfair to many Generals fans which play SC2 because its one of the last good rts s with basebuilding mechanics . On the one side not every gameplaymechanic in an game has to be decision making related. On the other side not every gameplay mechanic must be non context related as long as the core gameplay is simple. C&C Generals had many context related gameplayelements and fans loved it for. And no Generals is not DOTA. It would give zerg an extra fully new gameplaymechanic and would make games even more diversified. It would also fit perfect to zerg. Zergs units cant be equal strong compared to protoss or terran units,because of the ability to pump out much units so fast and switch unitcomposition so fast. So its more about outswarm or outthink the oponent than outmicro them with equal unitnumbers. This is the beta of your mod so it would really be a good time to try out things like that and if they dont work out , so what you can take them out of the game again its just betabuild .But i also understand if you think this would not fit your mod. Sorry for being so pushy on that one. I appreciate really your work. peace out. | ||
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ItWhoSpeaks
United States362 Posts
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ItWhoSpeaks
United States362 Posts
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Doominator10
United States515 Posts
I do think the zerg units are quite a bit hard to see. Just a touch up on that front and I'll be happy w/ the tech trees :D Also, I would like some info on when / why you felt it would be better if the swarm host wasn't morphed from roach? I was so happy when my I didnt have a bunch of units from my larva (since I kept 10 keys on the left of my keyboard for that, now I had to fenagle my hotkeys to make it work. :[ ) in that more zerg units were made from evolving prior strains instead of coming from larva. | ||
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ItWhoSpeaks
United States362 Posts
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Spaceboy
United Kingdom220 Posts
On April 07 2013 09:37 ItWhoSpeaks wrote: Its a Fez you barbarian. Fezzes are cool! | ||
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