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OneGoal: A better SC2 [Project Hub] - Page 22
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MNdakota
United States512 Posts
www.twitch.tv/mndakota EDIT: Will be delayed for a bit. EDIT2: Stream is up. | ||
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KamikazeDurrrp
United States95 Posts
On January 08 2013 10:43 Hider wrote: Im not 100% sure i fully understand your POV, but I assume it's something like this: 1) Tier 3 units should work differently from core units. 2) Tier 3 units micro should be about keeping them alive, which should be difficult to do. 3) BC has a low range and is countered by a lot of units into a fight, so it is given a yamato cannon so one can say that the full package (the a move capital ship and the yamato cannon) is worth to pay 400/300 for. 4) The BC is supposed to be a siegebreaking unit, which means that it is a unit that makes it possibly to attack with rather than a unit which increases defenders advantage. If that's your arguments im not sure I completely agree. First of all, do you agree with me that the current BC isn't exactly difficult to use optimally (the easy to learn easy to master concept applies here)?. if that's the case would you support a reworked bc ability which gave BC's the same siegebreaker role yet it was more difficult to use efficiently than the current yamato cannon? Or would you rather favor the current yamato cannon + some kind of moving shot ability? Secondly it seems to me that you want the BC to have an attacking role than be a more defensive unit; you argue that it is intended role? Why is that? Why does this unit have to be a unit that can deal damage efficiently while attacking? Does not neccesarily make for more entertaining games ? Personally, I think any unit role should be up for discussion, and should be decided upon which kind of gameplay we want. Therefore I think it's somewhat irrelevant that the BC previously was a good "siegebreaker unit", if the game would be more entertaining by designing it as a "defender-unit". If the BC worked better as a siegebreaking unit, sure then I would be fine by possibly keeping the current yamato but making the capital ship it self tougher to use optimally. But I would like to hear some arguments for why that should be the case. We must remember though that when designing a siege-unit that it needs to work in the same way as the siege tanks does. What do I mean by that? Well the siege tank in it self isn't actually that interesting. Some could argue that sieging tanks up at the right time is an art and interesting to read, but most spectators do not find that very entertaining, and most siege timing decisions are actually very trivial. Instead, the great thing about the siege tank is the way it incentivizes the opponent to multitask the crap out of the terran player. The BC should have the same effect; say the BC is a kind of anti air siege unit. Now it should force the toss (assuming he went air heavy) to abuse the immobility of the terran. But how is that even possibly with the carrier/tempest (hint: its not). So I think in order for the siege BC to be entertaining tvp toss air actually needs to mobile (one possible solution is to make tempest a more mobile unit rather than a long range unit, instead the carrier is the long range unit with its moving attack). In order for the siege BC to be entertaining tvz, the corrupter should probably be given a larger role aside from countering other air units. This means that someone could actually go for the broodlord/corrupter combination and use corrupters to abuse the immobility of the antiair BC (assuming some creative redesign to the corrupter). The terrans should respond by positioning his BC very intelligently and predict the likely response of the zerg player. So by giving the BC this kind of role, it would require further changes to other protoss and zerg units for the game to be interesting. So unless the developers of Onegoal are interested in redesigning units such as corrupter/tempest and or void ray (again) this won't work. I just don't understand why the BC has to be so difficult to use lol. It has perfectly clear weaknesses, it's role is well defined, and it's difficult to access and keep alive. I guess that calling the unit a "seigebreaker" was confusing you because that made it sound like the unit was only good for attacking. I mean, yes the focus of the unit is to be good at attacking but it doesn't mean it has it's defensive uses as well. That's like calling a siege tank an defensive unit because it's immobile with long range. Okay, I'm rambling a bit so I'll make it a bit more clear: 1) The BC is highest tech available to terran so it should have powerful weapons 2) The point of getting highest tech is to give yourself additional utility and leeway to turn around fights than you usually would with lower tech units (I know I've been focusing a lot on the offensive uses but you can use the unit defensively too to suddenly turn around a fight if you're losing) 3) If you just get the unit for defensive purposes it sort of defeats the purpose of additional utility and a powerful "weapon" to use in fights (probably just my personal preference) I don't really like the idea for the BC to be a siege unit because (again, personal preference) but when you get a high tech unit as the BC and you just move in the middle of the fight to just sit there, it sort of deflates the whole idea of getting high tech. I know the BC is immobile, but it's not THAT immobile. It's still an air unit, it can still avoid ground units by moving over cliffs, and escape enemy air by moving backwards into their own air support. It's just slow ENOUGH where you don't go crazy with such a strong unit. Plus the siege BC would actually LIMIT BC, not really strengthen it. The difference between the siege tank and the siege BC is that you have an army to buffer against your opponent reaching your siege tanks... not so much with BC. If memory correct, then there's no real "collision" that you have in air, at least compared to what you have on the ground. So you could put your siege tanks on the high ground, behind an army, in a relatively unareachable position, etc. etc. (assuming your opponent has no air). With the BC you just don't have that luxury. Assuming your opponent knows what he's doing, and both of you have reached the lategame, then you could bet that the opponent will have made mobile air units, or mobile anti-air units to fight the BC. Thus you would have to be even MORE defensive, making the game even more based on turtling and deathball. It's not just BC versus carrier-tempest, it's BC versus HT, blink stalkers, vikings, corruptors (okay nvmd, they're useless), mutalisks (:O), phoenix, void ray, mass marines, etc. etc. Thus the only way to balance it would really be to have the BC outrange everything (broken) or be immobile and just do nothing. An targetable, apm intensive Yamato is just more interesting to me. This is why I would favor defensive matrix being added to the game more (if defensive matrixed units were "un-feedbackable"). You could take the risk of exposing your BC more in order to do the role it's intended to (tank a lot of damage, do a lot of dps), and a way to balance it would be to make the cooldown short so you would have to be smart in using it. Plus it would help against a lot of the counters to mech as well (immortals) by keeping your high tech expensive mech units alive. In the end though, the biggest problem of the BC isn't the BC, it's the counters to BC. Blink stalkers, feedback and tempest are just a few of the things that have to be seriously changed if we ever want to make the BC viable. OH uh...difficult to use optimally. This isn't a complete answer, but I'll just say that the medivac isn't really a "mechanically intensive" unit but it's plenty difficult to use optimally. It's more what the medivac offers and how you abuse what it offers that makes it difficult to use optimally. Sure, the BC isn't perfect in a "difficult to master" sense but I've yet to see something that convinced me it has to be "difficult to master" due to the so many counters it has against it. | ||
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RiFT_
United States15 Posts
Quite an extensive conversation focused on the BC alone. We agree that ideally the BC would be both fun, interesting, and distinctive in its use. The goal with Behemoth Conduit was to make BCs able to contribute in small numbers but not be like old Void Rays when massed. Patch 1 features some added art for Behemoth Conduit that makes it more visible for both sides to help them both properly assess the impact of the spell. While not the perfect solution, Behemoth Conduit addresses some major issues of the BC. It helps address them being kited and their general immobility without just make them always fast. It helps versus Feedback because it allows the BC to continually keep its energy low but the back-and-forth still exists. If continually burning off energy by using Behemoth Conduit, it will never mass up the energy for Yamato. One the other hand, High Templar can still feedback and it will end the Behemoth Conduit, removing the bonus for nearby mechanical units. Moving shot is interesting but is very distinctive. It was specific to Phoenix in vanilla SC2. Diamondback got it in campaign, so we had to put it on our AA Diamondback. The Hyperion was shooting while moving in many cinematics. I am hesitant because moving shot doesn't really make it unique or interesting, it just makes it stronger. It is worth noting that BCs have received some indirect buffs in this patch. Vikings were a major threat to all capital ships but with their bonus damage now being against light should help BCs hold up better. Void Rays went from an anti-capital ship, into an air-to-ground zoning craft. Anti-light blink Stalkers were causing some significant problems early on and with their lower health, they won't be much of a threat to BCs. Honestly Mutalisks were never very good against BCs, with Ripwave Vikings to support and Ships benefiting from Vehicle armor, those glaive bounces are going to be reduced to .5 damage unless you got way behind in upgrades. Same thing with Phoenix more armor vs an x2 attack means Phoenix aren't going to do much. So this really leaves the main threats as the two anti-capital ship flyers: Corruptors and Tempests. We are contemplating lowering their bonuses and making the bonus vs armored. Similarly, we are looking at standardizing Archon damage. The philosophy is that only armor types should affect combat damage, tags such as Psionic, Massive, Biological, and Mechanical should only affect spells. Massable Hydras and Immortals remain major threats to capital ships, but being able to exploit terrain since you are air, this makes it so you can mitigate damage. You really need AoE to deal with this massed infantry of any race. EMP is really strong vs mass Immortal and Hydras disintegrate to any splash. Since BCs with Behemoth Conduits on can zoom away at 2.7 movespeed, you can also bait chasing infantry into chokes, minefields, or tank lines. Now time to address new threats to BCs: the new AA Diamondback and burrowed Infestors Neural Parasiting. (Abduct is a threat in HotS, but not unique to our mod and not enough of a threat that you see players giving up on making capital ships altogether.) Diamondbacks hit pretty hard vs armored air, but you have to get under air forces in order to to get off multiple devastating volleys, (2.5 attack delay is noticeable) so it is really about catching air forces when they are unprotected by both terrain and ground forces. You have to be really caught out to not be able to get away with Behemoth Conduits. We considered adding Defensive Matrix but that doesn't really shore up any of the BC's weaknesses. It still gets kited, it still can't be very effective in smalls numbers, it still has low mobility. It just makes the slow sky tank even more tanky. It's like the Void Ray steroid in HotS, you pop it going into a major battle and that's it. Well, that was a lot on one topic. @KamikazeDurrrp You are right, we want to keep mechanics simple and really only introduce elaborate mechanics such as Isolation Pulse if we think it adds a lot to the game. We try to stick to precedent established by Blizzard and have considered messing with energy regeneration rates but have shied away from it. @Zrana Vision is something interesting that hasn't been explored much. We tried some vision enhancing spells on the raven but they never really seemed worthwhile when you could PDD or Seeker intstead. We think Behemoth Conduit is more interesting than just a straight stat boost on the BC and it allows you to mitigate damage from Feedbacks. @purakushi and Bayyne Yes, economy is the framework that everything is built upon in SC2. We may not like where it is at, but our goal is to try and make the unit and army interactions worth watching. Yes, you can go to 3 base and throw walls of Hydralisks in every matchup, but we are trying to make throwing masses of unmicro'd units less effective. Hydras are much more fragile than Roaches and have to be heavily micro'd to not melt. Mass Immortals does some serious work, but with only 5 range and such large radii that if you 1a, 2/3 or your army is going to be derping in the back. We have been dialing back macro mechanics slowly, but that stuff is so fundamental that it is difficult to judge what changes will make a race completely unplayable. Changing the economy is a last resort for us, we want to make a better SC2 by creating better units. So, my question for everyone in this thread is "What do you think of Zerg?" We have tried to make it more swarmy and less dependent on the Infestor. With the addition of ability for Ultralisks to walk over lings, locusts, and broodlings, we hope to see an upswing in Ling Ultra play. Zerg has seen few changes recently because we felt there were larger issues to address with the other races. | ||
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Doominator10
United States515 Posts
HOLY $#@~ | ||
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Hider
Denmark9341 Posts
On January 08 2013 19:34 RiFT_ wrote: @Hider and everyone else talking about the BC Quite an extensive conversation focused on the BC alone. We agree that ideally the BC would be both fun, interesting, and distinctive in its use. The goal with Behemoth Conduit was to make BCs able to contribute in small numbers but not be like old Void Rays when massed. Patch 1 features some added art for Behemoth Conduit that makes it more visible for both sides to help them both properly assess the impact of the spell. While not the perfect solution, Behemoth Conduit addresses some major issues of the BC. It helps address them being kited and their general immobility without just make them always fast. It helps versus Feedback because it allows the BC to continually keep its energy low but the back-and-forth still exists. If continually burning off energy by using Behemoth Conduit, it will never mass up the energy for Yamato. One the other hand, High Templar can still feedback and it will end the Behemoth Conduit, removing the bonus for nearby mechanical units. Moving shot is interesting but is very distinctive. It was specific to Phoenix in vanilla SC2. Diamondback got it in campaign, so we had to put it on our AA Diamondback. The Hyperion was shooting while moving in many cinematics. I am hesitant because moving shot doesn't really make it unique or interesting, it just makes it stronger. It is worth noting that BCs have received some indirect buffs in this patch. Vikings were a major threat to all capital ships but with their bonus damage now being against light should help BCs hold up better. Void Rays went from an anti-capital ship, into an air-to-ground zoning craft. Anti-light blink Stalkers were causing some significant problems early on and with their lower health, they won't be much of a threat to BCs. Honestly Mutalisks were never very good against BCs, with Ripwave Vikings to support and Ships benefiting from Vehicle armor, those glaive bounces are going to be reduced to .5 damage unless you got way behind in upgrades. Same thing with Phoenix more armor vs an x2 attack means Phoenix aren't going to do much. So this really leaves the main threats as the two anti-capital ship flyers: Corruptors and Tempests. We are contemplating lowering their bonuses and making the bonus vs armored. Similarly, we are looking at standardizing Archon damage. The philosophy is that only armor types should affect combat damage, tags such as Psionic, Massive, Biological, and Mechanical should only affect spells. Massable Hydras and Immortals remain major threats to capital ships, but being able to exploit terrain since you are air, this makes it so you can mitigate damage. You really need AoE to deal with this massed infantry of any race. EMP is really strong vs mass Immortal and Hydras disintegrate to any splash. Since BCs with Behemoth Conduits on can zoom away at 2.7 movespeed, you can also bait chasing infantry into chokes, minefields, or tank lines. Now time to address new threats to BCs: the new AA Diamondback and burrowed Infestors Neural Parasiting. (Abduct is a threat in HotS, but not unique to our mod and not enough of a threat that you see players giving up on making capital ships altogether.) Diamondbacks hit pretty hard vs armored air, but you have to get under air forces in order to to get off multiple devastating volleys, (2.5 attack delay is noticeable) so it is really about catching air forces when they are unprotected by both terrain and ground forces. You have to be really caught out to not be able to get away with Behemoth Conduits. We considered adding Defensive Matrix but that doesn't really shore up any of the BC's weaknesses. It still gets kited, it still can't be very effective in smalls numbers, it still has low mobility. It just makes the slow sky tank even more tanky. It's like the Void Ray steroid in HotS, you pop it going into a major battle and that's it. Well, that was a lot on one topic. @KamikazeDurrrp You are right, we want to keep mechanics simple and really only introduce elaborate mechanics such as Isolation Pulse if we think it adds a lot to the game. We try to stick to precedent established by Blizzard and have considered messing with energy regeneration rates but have shied away from it. @Zrana Vision is something interesting that hasn't been explored much. We tried some vision enhancing spells on the raven but they never really seemed worthwhile when you could PDD or Seeker intstead. We think Behemoth Conduit is more interesting than just a straight stat boost on the BC and it allows you to mitigate damage from Feedbacks. @purakushi and Bayyne Yes, economy is the framework that everything is built upon in SC2. We may not like where it is at, but our goal is to try and make the unit and army interactions worth watching. Yes, you can go to 3 base and throw walls of Hydralisks in every matchup, but we are trying to make throwing masses of unmicro'd units less effective. Hydras are much more fragile than Roaches and have to be heavily micro'd to not melt. Mass Immortals does some serious work, but with only 5 range and such large radii that if you 1a, 2/3 or your army is going to be derping in the back. We have been dialing back macro mechanics slowly, but that stuff is so fundamental that it is difficult to judge what changes will make a race completely unplayable. Changing the economy is a last resort for us, we want to make a better SC2 by creating better units. So, my question for everyone in this thread is "What do you think of Zerg?" We have tried to make it more swarmy and less dependent on the Infestor. With the addition of ability for Ultralisks to walk over lings, locusts, and broodlings, we hope to see an upswing in Ling Ultra play. Zerg has seen few changes recently because we felt there were larger issues to address with the other races. While you respond to me (regarding the BC), you don't really adress any of the arguments I have listed in my previous posts. Anyway, I feel like there is a clear distinction between my game design philosphy and Onegoal's philosphy; Onegoal; All units needs a clear role and all units needs to be easy to learn, but only some needs to be hard to learn. My game philosphy: All units needs a clar role and all units needs to be easy to learn difficult to master. Was this a fair representation of your game design philosphy? If so, can you tell me what is the drawback of making every single unit difficult to master as this leads to a lower skill cap and less interesting games (assuming the unit/ability is easy to use for new players). Basically my question is, why be satifised with a B if you can obtain the A by working just a bit harder? On January 08 2013 13:16 KamikazeDurrrp wrote: I just don't understand why the BC has to be so difficult to use lol. It has perfectly clear weaknesses, it's role is well defined, and it's difficult to access and keep alive. I guess that calling the unit a "seigebreaker" was confusing you because that made it sound like the unit was only good for attacking. I mean, yes the focus of the unit is to be good at attacking but it doesn't mean it has it's defensive uses as well. That's like calling a siege tank an defensive unit because it's immobile with long range. Okay, I'm rambling a bit so I'll make it a bit more clear: 1) The BC is highest tech available to terran so it should have powerful weapons 2) The point of getting highest tech is to give yourself additional utility and leeway to turn around fights than you usually would with lower tech units (I know I've been focusing a lot on the offensive uses but you can use the unit defensively too to suddenly turn around a fight if you're losing) 3) If you just get the unit for defensive purposes it sort of defeats the purpose of additional utility and a powerful "weapon" to use in fights (probably just my personal preference) I don't really like the idea for the BC to be a siege unit because (again, personal preference) but when you get a high tech unit as the BC and you just move in the middle of the fight to just sit there, it sort of deflates the whole idea of getting high tech. I know the BC is immobile, but it's not THAT immobile. It's still an air unit, it can still avoid ground units by moving over cliffs, and escape enemy air by moving backwards into their own air support. It's just slow ENOUGH where you don't go crazy with such a strong unit. Plus the siege BC would actually LIMIT BC, not really strengthen it. The difference between the siege tank and the siege BC is that you have an army to buffer against your opponent reaching your siege tanks... not so much with BC. If memory correct, then there's no real "collision" that you have in air, at least compared to what you have on the ground. So you could put your siege tanks on the high ground, behind an army, in a relatively unareachable position, etc. etc. (assuming your opponent has no air). With the BC you just don't have that luxury. Assuming your opponent knows what he's doing, and both of you have reached the lategame, then you could bet that the opponent will have made mobile air units, or mobile anti-air units to fight the BC. Thus you would have to be even MORE defensive, making the game even more based on turtling and deathball. It's not just BC versus carrier-tempest, it's BC versus HT, blink stalkers, vikings, corruptors (okay nvmd, they're useless), mutalisks (:O), phoenix, void ray, mass marines, etc. etc. Thus the only way to balance it would really be to have the BC outrange everything (broken) or be immobile and just do nothing. An targetable, apm intensive Yamato is just more interesting to me. This is why I would favor defensive matrix being added to the game more (if defensive matrixed units were "un-feedbackable"). You could take the risk of exposing your BC more in order to do the role it's intended to (tank a lot of damage, do a lot of dps), and a way to balance it would be to make the cooldown short so you would have to be smart in using it. Plus it would help against a lot of the counters to mech as well (immortals) by keeping your high tech expensive mech units alive. In the end though, the biggest problem of the BC isn't the BC, it's the counters to BC. Blink stalkers, feedback and tempest are just a few of the things that have to be seriously changed if we ever want to make the BC viable. OH uh...difficult to use optimally. This isn't a complete answer, but I'll just say that the medivac isn't really a "mechanically intensive" unit but it's plenty difficult to use optimally. It's more what the medivac offers and how you abuse what it offers that makes it difficult to use optimally. Sure, the BC isn't perfect in a "difficult to master" sense but I've yet to see something that convinced me it has to be "difficult to master" due to the so many counters it has against it. But why not? The only impact it would have on the game if we made BC's microable (as long as the same role was maintained - which you call siegebreaker) would be that games became even more interesting when the BC was out. I don't see any potential drawback of redesigning the unit/the yamato cannon (as long as the redesigning is done correctly). I also don't believe that it is the "buffer unit, aka the hellion which makes siege tanks interesting. I believe we would still have the same kind of (awesome) multitaskbased games if the gas cost of tanks were reduced so one could mass tanks only (assuming they would counter lings and zealots as well). The awesome thing about siegetanks is that it forces the opponent to attack in different location and rewards multitasking and positional play. As I stated previously this will be impossible to accomplish with the siege-BC (as an anti air focussed unit) with the current design of protoss and zerg units (simply because the tempest and carriers are too immobile, mutalisks are already not that good vs mech and corrupters are useless vs ground). But if units were redesigned to make the siege-BC intereesting it wouldn't matter that the BC didn't have any buffer units as long as it would be extremelye cost effective while in siege mode. | ||
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KamikazeDurrrp
United States95 Posts
On January 08 2013 19:34 RiFT_ wrote: So, my question for everyone in this thread is "What do you think of Zerg?" We have tried to make it more swarmy and less dependent on the Infestor. With the addition of ability for Ultralisks to walk over lings, locusts, and broodlings, we hope to see an upswing in Ling Ultra play. Zerg has seen few changes recently because we felt there were larger issues to address with the other races. I think we've gone a bit off topic in discussing BC, what I really wanted to talk about was ZERGGGGGGG *SHAKE HANDS ANGRILY*. I think everyone agree that zerg has some problems, but I'm willing to bet all of us have our disagreements on what problems zerg has, as well has how they want to see zerg being played. I'll just start off that I prefer zerg have highly specialized units (ie. ultras) with powerful tools in their specialization, but be supported by crowd control spellcasters both to get more out of their specialized units, but also to transition between specialized units if needed. To give an example, sort of like how zerg uses the infestor as a spell-caster to "buy time" to remax from Broodlords to Ultras in the current meta. However, while Blizzard tried to to this, they essential broke zerg by giving them access to an easy economy and a broken spellcaster, the infestor. Since they assumed that zerg was a "macro race" that had to get a giant economy as soon as possible to spam as many units as possible to be "swarm-like". I disagree with that assessment. What should feel "swarm-like" is the threat of zerg units coming towards you like the baneling and the ultralisk...... less like the roach and the corruptor. Also, and this is going to go a bit off topic at first, but I always believe that there should be cheap, restrictive defensive counters to strong offensive utility. What do I mean by that? Well, everybody knows how an expensive hard to get to banshee is easily countered by dropping missile turret/cannon/spore crawler right? But does that automatically make the banshee useless? Just because the banshee can't do damage, the threat of the banshee is still there, making it so that you have to invest in defenses, sacrificing map control and less confident in general to move out until you're completely sure you're safe. The problem with zerg is that making more queens is essential what they WANT to do, combine that with the best "map control" tool of all the races, the turbolord, and it just pushes zerg over the top in terms of safety and unrestricted confident movement. With hydras as 1.5 tier it fixes a lot of zerg safety issues in the early game, making it easy to move spore crawler back to its evolution chamber requirement, but that's more of a HOTS beta issue. What we can do for the mod is this: -make queens lose energy when they're off creep -give zerg better early game offensive option (I'm not creative enough to think of them right now  )Having queens being able to slowly walk off creep, then sudden still have their full abilities once they reach an expansion hatchery is just silly. At least make it so that it's hard for queens to walk off creep without just sacrificing movement. With the losing energy when off creep requirement it forces zergs to use queens more conservatively, and adds a dynamic into the game where being able to successfully drag queens off creep has the added benefit of making them lose their ability to do other stuff. Also with better early game offensive options, zerg wouldn't have to defend and macro every game, just like every race they could have timings, early harass, and more dynamic openings. I would also prefer that creep tumors would be put on the edge of creep, so that creep would grow towards the creep tumor, rather than the middle and growing out from the creep tumor. This would make them easier to snipe but that's probably too difficult and going too far. There's also the problem of zerg air. Zerg air options are by far the weakest of all the 3 races. Before you tell me how broken BLs are (and they are) let me just give a list of all the air units for each of the three races in WOL: PROTOSS -Phoenix -Void Ray -Carrier -Mothership TERRAN -Viking -Medivac -Raven -Banshee -Battlecruiser Zerg -Mutalisk -Corruptor -Broodlord Out of this list, which of the air options seem weakest? It's definitely not protoss. Protoss has a large flexibility and utility in the air units on their list, the problem has always been for protoss how to transition to air and the weakness of protoss air in certain situations. Thus, Blizzard "fixed" this by giving protoss air ANOTHER capital ship (a really broken one at that), when they should have focus on the race with the weakest air options: zerg. Yes, I know the mutalisk is strong in it's own right, but it simply doesn't compare to the air options that the other races have, with more mobility (phoenix), more power (BC Carrier) and more range (viking). I don't have to explain why corruptors are bad, right? Zerg just needs a lot more air options. I would rather have it that Blizzard gave zerg a capital air ship that was just anti-air, but for the onegoal mod would it be possible to add scourge into the game? By adding the scourge, you could mitigate the problem of mass muta, and with the future addition of the viper and binding cloud, you could make so it would less risky to use scourge, since the muta range would be reduced in the could. Plus, you could also nerf the infestor. Ahhh the infestor, the gift that keeps on taking. How I hate you so. I've written tons of post on the infestor and people keep thinking I'm stupid, so I'll just sum it up and you could look at my post history for the justification. I would prefer complete redesigning fungal to be more like BW ensnare, something like this: -30% movement speed slow -50% attack speed/damage debuff -do little to no damage -still silence, reveal, etc. This would make it so that you could still have fungal do what it was originally intended to do, crowd control, etc. but ALSO make it so that you could lower the dps of your opponent's army. This would make it so that if your opponent tried to use a deathball, it would actually make it so that using a deathball would LOWER your dps. I would prefer if the redesigned fungal was an attack speed slow because you could still use your initial "burst" to gain advantage in a fight, but just redesign fungal this way would do a lot in providing zerg more utility, NOT breaking the game, and put the focus on fungal as a SUPPORTING spell, not a does everything spell. If a redesign isn't possible, the only thing I could recommend to fix the infestor would be: -Make fungal do little or no damage at all -Make fungal a slow Why does fungal need to do damage in the first place? The only reason I can think of is that adding damage to fungal would ALLOW IT TO BE SPAMMED, which contradicts the whole concept of spells in SC in the first place. Spells are supposed to be powerful tools that are to be used conservatively that can change the tide of the fight, not spammable do everything for you by just landing it. I've also thought really hard about fungal being a root or a slow but in the end I decided to stick with slow just because a root is so damn broken. Of course, zerg would be weak against air, but adding scourge could fix that  Other than that zerg units are just so damn boring with a few exceptions (mutalisks, zerglings, baneling sometimes). I just wish zerg had more tools as opposed to more units, but I'll try to come up with some "tools" later. These things stick out to me as the biggest problem with zerg. | ||
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ItWhoSpeaks
United States362 Posts
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Doominator10
United States515 Posts
<- plays on american... | ||
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AnteZ
Germany29 Posts
edit: Actuall my second post.. Forgot about the other -.- | ||
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topsecret221
United States108 Posts
On January 09 2013 04:58 AnteZ wrote: Woo 1st post on TL. I have been lurking for a long time. I have been dying to try this since it was announced. The Channel is onegoal, right? Im idling there at the moment. Come play EU people!!! The official channel is indeed onegoal. Get anyone you can on the EU servers to help you test it out! Been dying to see some non-Americans give it a go | ||
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Doominator10
United States515 Posts
Here is my birthday present: A blast from the past cast of MMA vs JulyZerg. These are the kind of games I got corrosive nerd chills from watching. + Show Spoiler + (Check out that.... unit... around the 20 minute mark. It is a survivor, even without the HotS buff :D) Go youtube for HD :D User was warned for this post | ||
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Spaceboy
United Kingdom220 Posts
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MNdakota
United States512 Posts
http://www.twitch.tv/mndakota EDIT: My Xsplit license just ran out. Audio will probably sound pretty nasty. EDIT2: Playing OneGoal now and switched to OBS. | ||
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purakushi
United States3300 Posts
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AnteZ
Germany29 Posts
I have one suggestion for the spell on the mothership that makes units unable to attack or be attacked (don't know the name). The spell also removes unit collision. I think this is good and it could be very interesting to cast on your own zealot + archons before a battle. However, when my own units were affected during a battle they would just walk through the enemies army and you can't even see it properly. As soon as they could be attacked again they were immediately killed. I suggest that the spell resets any move command the unit has had like fungal so this doesn't happen so often and then only when you give a fresh move command. There is a bug that caused ALL my custom keys to be deleted after my first game was finished. I haven't tried to reproduce this but my guess is that it happens when you edit your hotkeys while in the game. So if you have customized your hotkeys, I suggest that you duplicate your hotkey layout before playing. Luckily I could just download the hotkey layout again, otherwise i would be mad as hell right now | ||
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ferralis
United States23 Posts
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ItWhoSpeaks
United States362 Posts
On January 09 2013 07:02 AnteZ wrote: Just played my first two games - I REALLY like the new gameplay that arises from the new hydra and roach. Burrowmove is now really useful and lots of fun to play. I have one suggestion for the spell on the mothership that makes units unable to attack or be attacked (don't know the name). The spell also removes unit collision. I think this is good and it could be very interesting to cast on your own zealot + archons before a battle. However, when my own units were affected during a battle they would just walk through the enemies army and you can't even see it properly. As soon as they could be attacked again they were immediately killed. I suggest that the spell resets any move command the unit has had like fungal so this doesn't happen so often and then only when you give a fresh move command. There is a bug that caused ALL my custom keys to be deleted after my first game was finished. I haven't tried to reproduce this but my guess is that it happens when you edit your hotkeys while in the game. So if you have customized your hotkeys, I suggest that you duplicate your hotkey layout before playing. Luckily I could just download the hotkey layout again, otherwise i would be mad as hell right now Strange, We will look into the hotkey issue. Thanks for letting us know. As for Isolation Pulse, the art needs to be much clearer and it could use some tweaking. We will put it on our Design Patch 2 list. | ||
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ItWhoSpeaks
United States362 Posts
On January 09 2013 06:55 purakushi wrote: Patch looks alright, but the diamondback is meh. You do not even have to kite to outrange and damage units chasing after them. The skill required is low yet it can not be expressed at a higher level, and it is a boring unit. It just has to run away, and, because it outranges a lot of units, it is just a chase to the death. Their ground form isn't particularly inspiring, however, it supplements Hellion heavy armies quite well, allowing for more variations in unit composition. As for skill, how one uses the Diamondback's AA is pretty good. The transformation sequence is a bit shorter than the AA cooldown, allowing you to fire, transform, move a bit, then transform again for another volley. This is very hard to do while microing the rest of your army, but could be worth it against units like Tempests or Broodlords. | ||
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ItWhoSpeaks
United States362 Posts
On January 09 2013 04:58 AnteZ wrote: Woo 1st post on TL. I have been lurking for a long time. I have been dying to try this since it was announced. The Channel is onegoal, right? Im idling there at the moment. Come play EU people!!! edit: Actuall my second post.. Forgot about the other -.- Welcome to One Goal! Hope to see you around! | ||
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lucasjb
Australia21 Posts
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