EPTOneGoal: A better SC2 [Project Hub] - Page 24
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Jett 1.0
United States4 Posts
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Hider
Denmark9407 Posts
On January 11 2013 09:12 MNdakota wrote: To remass quickly is something the Zerg race does. It does not fit the theme of Terran in my eyes. What do you think about the collosus idea that me and someone else simultaneously suggested a couple of pages back? | ||
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MNdakota
United States512 Posts
On January 11 2013 11:18 Hider wrote: What do you think about the collosus idea that me and someone else simultaneously suggested a couple of pages back? Was that the one about the 6 supply Colossus? I don't remember it exactly. | ||
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ledarsi
United States475 Posts
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kasapanos
Finland8 Posts
On January 11 2013 15:06 ledarsi wrote: I think the best concept we settled on was making the Colossus really, really slow? Possibly coinciding with increased range or damage? Essentially turning it into a Protoss siege tank. You can deathball with them, but a deathball only moves as quickly as its slowest member. And using Colossi as an offensive deathball if they have a movespeed of like 0.5 actually becomes quite dangerous unless you have overwhelming main army superiority. It would also give the Protoss a reason to use Warp Prisms with Colossi to increase their effective move speed, and even get the speedprism upgrade to make their colossi more mobile. This is what I have been thinking too for a long time. Would you then make the attack more powerful then maybe? Would be so cool if we would see colossus drops and harass and some warp-prism micro as it was with reaver once again. With a twist of new taste.  | ||
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Nyvis
France284 Posts
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Hider
Denmark9407 Posts
On January 04 2013 22:53 gCgCrypto wrote: Well yeah but the explosion thing is only after an upgrade so if i dont want my oponent to be able to micro against it i dont get the upgrade, easy! Honestly i have thought about it myself but fixing the colosus is not easy. Best thing i came up with is making it deal damage in a vertical line not horizontal. (Say it attack starts anywhere between Range 0 and 8 and then it goes 1 towards the colosus or 1 away) Like that the colosus would be most effective on the edges of your army so you´d need to spread out to protect it. Also now split micro can soft counter the colosus, great! As additional bonus you can play around with different downsides to the colosus. I though about sth like it is exactly like the current one while moving but cant attack and it "lowers" its "head", looses its weakness to air, its movement speed (gets really really slow) and gets the attack i was talking about. (It was easier to explain that to myself ^^) MNdakota : This is the collosus idea I suggested as well. This vertical line abliity should be something that could be activated every 10th/20th second. Collosus's normal attack (from HOTS/WOL) should be kept but DPS reduced by 20% (or something like that) and anti air units shouldn't be able to hit collosus. This will incentivize warp prism play as you can pick up a colllosus in a warp prism and use it to flank the opposing army (if the opposing army has a great flank the ability will be very inefficient unless you flank with the collosus). The counter to collosus will now be micro rather than something silly like attackmoved corrupters/vikings. While the ability in it self will be difficult to use properly, the collosus is still somewhat okay'ish at lower levels as it still is pretty decent with its attack-move ability (should still soft counters marines and be acceptable against maurauders), and I think it is asily balanaceable across various skill levels as I belive it will take a somewhat similar amount of skills to use it optimally as to remicro against it. I believe this change could lead to a lot of creative uses for the collosus, and the ingame potential is endless. Think about how world class players could have 3-4 collosus's in various warp prism and micro them back and forth to get the optimally damage out of the ability. Also this will make collosus drops very great at harassing workers (almost similar to how hellion works). | ||
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Nyvis
France284 Posts
And I don't see why would you keep the normal attack or put the line one on an activated ability. There is enough spellcasters as it is. It being the basic attack could work as well. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9407 Posts
On January 12 2013 02:44 Nyvis wrote: I'm not sure with the colossus not being able to be hit by air unit. It's the unit's identity, and I don't think you want to touch this. It's true that it's too easily hardcountered at the moment (not by vikings, the new vikings are counters to light. But corruptors are still a problem). And I don't see why would you keep the normal attack or put the line one on an activated ability. There is enough spellcasters as it is. It being the basic attack could work as well. Regarding anti air, im not sure that really is the identitiy. Its primary role is as an anti light/biological/clumped up unit killer. The fact that the counter to is air is merely due to a lack of game understanding/creativity by blizzard and it creates boring gameplays as you seem to agree with (?). I think any kind of units that creates boring gameplay should be up for debate. It could be its normal attack as well, but I think it could mean that it would space up to much of batltefield at once (imagine a protoss having 5-6 collosus --> the battle will just be filled with lasers and it willl also be almost impossible to micro against them all). I prefer the idea that you use it this ability and then you manually click on a location where you want the laser to attack. This means that you can make preemptive attacks as well and this leads to much more positional based games. Also it will be alot easier to see when a good player uses the ability compared a mediocore one. When a player uses the ability (assuming the line attack will be its standard abillity) then we will never know whether he just attacked moved the collosus or whether he actually clicked there intentionally (if we compare this to marine splitting, then splitting the marines is always a skillbased "ability", its never a coincidence). There is another drawback to making the line-attack the collosus's standard as well, as it will lead to the collosus being completely useless against well spread out units (unless you have a warp prism and you can use it to flank). By keeping its normal attack from WOL/HOTS, then it will always be an okay'ish option against biological units/swarm units even if you don't have the required mechanics to use it optimally. | ||
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Nyvis
France284 Posts
To micro against multiples, you just have to create an arc with your units, so that the line will only affect one or two. If you can't micro against them well, it would be because the protoss spreaded them around well to hit every angle, so it's not a problem. To avoid it being useless, you just have to make the line be short enough, enabling to keep the attack decent even if it hits one or two units. And even if the enemy know how to spread, you can always use forcefields to fight against it and force him into tighter packs. Or just use terrain and chokepoints. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9407 Posts
On January 12 2013 06:12 Nyvis wrote: The problem in the current game with the colossus being weak against air are the vikings/corruptors (which are totally uninteresting). Onegoal answered the viking, and if something interesting is done to the corruptor, being able to be hit by air could be interesting. To micro against multiples, you just have to create an arc with your units, so that the line will only affect one or two. If you can't micro against them well, it would be because the protoss spreaded them around well to hit every angle, so it's not a problem. To avoid it being useless, you just have to make the line be short enough, enabling to keep the attack decent even if it hits one or two units. And even if the enemy know how to spread, you can always use forcefields to fight against it and force him into tighter packs. Or just use terrain and chokepoints. Yes but this creates a scenario where the unit will be insanely good in certain situations and really bad in other situations. It will also be a unit that is very difficult to use for beginners. I want units (and assume you do too) that are still somewhat okay'ish if attack moved or if you have low apm. I don't want forcefields and warp prism play for it be acceptable against an a-moved bio force or roach/hydra force (which spreads out autmotically in wide open areas). And I don't want an attack-moved collosus just raping everything in a choke. But you do put up a few nice ways of using the abillity optimally, but that applies to having it as an ability as well. So yeh I definitely think Onegoal should try to test out something like this and see how it works. Giving it a line-attack will differeniate it from HT's as well. | ||
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MNdakota
United States512 Posts
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ItWhoSpeaks
United States362 Posts
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topsecret221
United States108 Posts
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Hider
Denmark9407 Posts
On January 12 2013 06:30 ItWhoSpeaks wrote: Corruptor is in the midst of getting a redesign to make it more of a nuanced unit. We are also narrowing in on a Colossus that is a lot less problematic and more skillful. It will mean that the Robo will not have a true siege unit if that set of changes go through. Interesting - as long as it fulfills the easy to learn difficult to master concept (which should apply to both the protoss player and the opposing player) I am happy. Could you give a few details on how the new collosus will work? On January 12 2013 06:30 topsecret221 wrote: The colossus' height, cliff-walking, and vulnerability to air is definitely a facet of the unit's identity (and rightly so... it's easily over 150 feet tall: twice as tall as any other unit in the game), so we have to refrain from addressing those unless there is literally no other choice. However, we can look into modifying it's counters, as Nyvis pointed out. We've already tweaked the viking, the phoenix wasn't ever really good at dealing with them, and we're working on the Corruptor as we speak (can't say too much yet, but it may help to see more mutalisk play as well )Are you trying to reason that due to its height, then air needs to be able to target it? I think this isn't the way one should try to reason design objectives. You could make these kind of statements with all kind of units and it would be close to impossible to create an interesting games. But if you could create a more interesting corrupter vs collosus scenario I wouldn't mind it as long as it requires micro from both players (but I would still prefer that collosus in warp prism became a viable option - you gotta admit that that sounds awesome right?). | ||
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Hider
Denmark9407 Posts
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topsecret221
United States108 Posts
On January 12 2013 06:34 Hider wrote: But if you could create a more interesting corrupter vs collosus scenario I wouldn't mind it as long as it requires micro from both players (but I would still prefer that collosus in warp prism became a viable option - you gotta admit that that sounds awesome right?). I've been wanting to see that since I got onto this team (which was when we started working on the colossus, incedentally) On January 12 2013 06:34 Hider wrote: Are you trying to reason that due to its height, then air needs to be able to target it? I think this isn't the way one should try to reason design objectives. You could make these kind of statements with all kind of units and it would be close to impossible to create an interesting games. Maybe it's not the best way to design a unit, but it is certainly the best way to redesign a unit while keeping with it's identity. And these are currently we've placed these constraints around ourselves to try to present this to Blizzard | ||
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Doominator10
United States515 Posts
My vision for the collosus: is not neccesarily a 'siege' unit like the siege tank or broodlord. It is a unit that simply obliterates anything its directive tells it to in 1 fell swoop. I'm talking War of the Worlds type walkers (without the human cage etc), or Darkwalkers from unreal tournament 3. Actually, I like the design they used for the DarkWalker, and would love it if a similar implimentation was for the collosus. http://liandri.beyondunreal.com/Darkwalker From the site: Mounted on a tripod of nano-fueled tentacles, the Darkwalker stands imposingly tall in the battlefield, intending to strike fear into the hearts of those who oppose the Necris. Few have faced this offensive platform in battle and lived to tell the tale. The darkwalker is mounted on spider-like legs, enabling it to travel smoothly over very uneven terrain. The primary beam attack is extremely powerful but changes direction slowly, lagging far behind the crosshair. Thus it is most effective on targets directly in your path or slightly around it. The Darkwalker camera gives you a good view of the map around you - if you see anyone behind or below you, the secondary "yell" attack can knock them off their feet allowing you to turn around and shoot them. The Darkwalker can also crouch, allowing you to pass through low openings and ceilings, and squish anyone who happens to be underneath. A good strategy is to skirt the perimeter of the arena, keeping you back against the wall to minimize the Darkwalker's weakness. While the Darkwalker is extremely powerful, the above combined with its relatively slow movement speed and large size, is also its weak point. The Darkwalker is huge, and slow to move and turn. Especially in free-for-all deathmatch, entering the darkwalker will almost surely cause every other player to gang up on you. Its weaknesses allow players to effectively damage and destroy it by attacking it from behind or running in a large circle around it, attacking in between beam shots. Skilled players should be able to limit the Darkwalker to no more kills than a well placed redeemer if they exploit the Darkwalker's weaknesses. Check out some UT3 Darkwalker vids for a better idea if you really need one. As for a general translation to SC2, My ideas try to focus on how it feels to use. (this is design and unit interpretation. Not balance, skill, APM intensity,or any other facet of the unit. Focus on that later.) --When I build a collosus, I want to feel like I have a unit that can obliterate everything directly in its path. It was a huge investment, and the built up anticipation and time I put into it better make it worth it. -------More specifically, I want something that can obliterate everything DIRECTLY in its path (Linear AOE), while I sit back and enjoy the fireworks. (If I am a good player, I am letting the collosus do its work, while my APM is spent on other units keeping it alive to do damage.) -------------------- Must have Line Splash -------------------- Must have a lot of damage per shot, with lowered fire rate. -------------------- Would like to emphasize the fact that running up a ramp against a protoss is suicidal. (Void Ray, Sentry, Storm, Archons, Now collosus. I kind of like the theme that the protoss are the kings of the hill, and the other races must be crafty to either knock them down, or get them to come off the hill.) --If I am playing against the collosus, I want to be afraid that my protoss opponent has the ultimate weapon of war on the ground of ANY race. If I am skilled, I want to be wary of the war-machine, but comfortable knowing that there are certain TACTICS (not unit compositions) I can do to minimize its effect. ------------- Must have a minimum range (I like 2-3. To be determined.) ------------- Must die to a good surround from lesser units (roaches, hydras, marauders, immortals) ------------- Must be (not hard-countered) vulnerable to airborne threats. ----------------------Since the viking is no longer the ONLY absolute hard-counter to collosus, just building vikings will not be enough to take them down. Managing your vikings to take shots and leave, take a shot and leave, etc, should be the airborne answer for Terran. I will wait and see what you do with the corruptor. Hope its good =P To encourage the notion of slowly chipping away at collosus instead of engaging them head on, especially if the protoss keeps them well protected on a ramp or in front of a wall or something, I propose -------------- Lower the shield regeneration rate, and trade off some hp for shields. The collosus is a massive* towering piece. We would think that protoss would put it's strongest (more shield points) on it, but of course the collosus must drain some of its power from its shields(lowered shield regen) to compensate for its ZOMFGHOLY$#@!ALLMY$#@!DIED attack Objective1: Encourage Protoss to be bold with your collosus, since shields regenerate (albeit more slowly) while hp does not. Objective2: Encourage Terrans and Zerg to continuously poke at them before , during, and after engagements, and punish protoss for exposing their prized ancient weapons. ------------------------ Lower the Supply down to 4 or 5, decrease the overall health of the unit, and balance out the shield/hp distribution like a WoL stalker (80hp / 80 shields). (Apply subsequent cost buff) Protoss should be able to make their machines more efficient, especially since their numbers are dwindling. + Show Spoiler + (Lol, zealots -> Dragoons -> Immortals... next its protoss ReDeads.) The influence of the soothing and detached Dark Templars, as well as the reduce, reuse, recycling Terrans, finaly made the Judicator caste give in to a more eco-friendly version. Colosus is now a Thor, instead of an Odin. (Play the campaign) These are just some impressions I think the colossus should give, as well as a general sense of what it should do when it is actually on the field. DISCUSS! *As a side note: I think the other 2 massive units (exception the archon), can be applied a similar chain of buff:nerf redesign. Lower supply (+) Lower Cost (+) Lower overall health (-) Balanced shield / health ratio. (+) Lowered Shield regen. (-) ***I misspelled colossus several times in different ways throughout the piece, while the true version of the colossus is spelled correctly at the bottom. (On purpose I promise ...=_=) Can you find them all :D ? | ||
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ItWhoSpeaks
United States362 Posts
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Hider
Denmark9407 Posts
On January 12 2013 06:56 topsecret221 wrote: I've been wanting to see that since I got onto this team (which was when we started working on the colossus, incedentally) Maybe it's not the best way to design a unit, but it is certainly the best way to redesign a unit while keeping with it's identity. And these are currently we've placed these constraints around ourselves to try to present this to Blizzard What are these constraints? You are willing to change stuff that Blizzard will never do (the whole warpgate thing + switch around the stalker and the immortal). You changed all of the aiblities of the oracles even though it actually worked okay'ish in hots. You added a new unit (something Dustin Browder said they won't do) The viking has a new role as well (?) Siege tanks overkill (Blizzard won't do that as well). But you won't change the counter to the collosus? It seems very weird, and I can't see the consistency. The unit role of the collosus will remain the same if its anti air targetability is removed (it will still be good against the same kind of units as previously). But it just has a different counter (micro or well postioned tanks) which is just much more awesome. I would very much appreciate if you define these constraints a bit more detailed, because I don't think I am the only one who is a bit confused. | ||
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