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MNdakota
United States512 Posts
On January 13 2013 06:19 Laertes wrote: I do not think sc2 has enough good viewership, it is too polarized between all-ins and macro I just want to add to that. Remember that Brood War had many years to develop while StarCraft 2 is barely on its third year and hasn't even had an expansion come out. | ||
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ItWhoSpeaks
United States362 Posts
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Nyvis
France284 Posts
- an all-in from one player, working if not scouted and answered perfectly, deflected if it is. - a timing where one player hits his intended army and push to close the game (pre-hive timings, fast 200/200 timings ...) - a 200/200 on either side. It makes the game be very predictable from a spectator point of view. In BW, because of the macro complexity and better supply efficiency, you can have an interesting macrogame while having players short from 200/200. I think a change in onegoal's economy (like starbow did) could really help with that, because it would be much harder to reach 200/200 on a small number of bases, with only 2 workers per mineral patch, so if your objective is 200/200, you would need more bases, thus spreading you more and allowing for more non-allin pre 200/200 action. I know you already considered this change, but I'm really convinced it will be very profitable for the game. | ||
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MNdakota
United States512 Posts
 -- www.twitch.tv/mndakota | ||
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Infested__Marine
United States29 Posts
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PineapplePizza
United States749 Posts
http://drop.sc/294416 tries to use sentries to defend, time warp looks pretty, dies http://drop.sc/294415 gets enough zealots + cannons / colossi to defend his nat, then takes a third, but I keep him pinned long enough to get a spire up, and max out on 4 bases. A recall error + lack of blink and mineral line cannons ends the game http://drop.sc/294414 tries to get chargelots + archons, dies Hydras don't need to have 6 range. You could probably return their attack speed back to normal (do they really need to be able to studder-step?) and let them do 6 or 7 damage to light, 8 damage to medium, and 10 to large / armored. I dunno what should be done about the range upgrade...should they start with range 4, or just get range 5 for free, like marines? - EDIT: a couple of things: - Locust attack speed is slower than in HotS, I think - Swarm Host movement speed off creep should be 2.25 - Immortal tooltip is funky (Can attack air and ground units, should read the other way around + Show Spoiler + yes I'm being anal - Mothership Core recall doesn't match HotS recall, it should teleport units around the core to a target nexus, rather than teleporting units to the mothership core. I dunno if that's intended or not. - Mothership Core still has envision; this was recently moved to the Oracle in the latest HotS build. - Creep Tumors can't be placed on ramps - Hydralisk Den has the lair-tech hydralisk den build time (55 seconds); Roach Warren has the hatchery-tech roach warren build time (40 seconds) - Spawn Changeling doesn't show a range-ring, nor does it actually 'throw' the changeling - Infested Terrans still benefit from upgrades - Hellbats have 1 armor (they have 0 in HotS) - Emergency Thrusters hotkey is T, is B in HotS, really weird when I first saw that - Roach attack sound is weird, I think part of it is missing - I don't think fungal should do the amount of damage it does, and definitely not over 4 seconds (and usable while burrowed at hive tech!) - Widow Mines build time is 30 seconds; their build time is 40 in hots - Widow Mine training tooltip shows that it can attack air units - Combat Drugs (reaper regen) requires an upgrade which does not exist - Auto-Turrets probably shouldn't burn down at low health - Yamato is 125 energy, hots is 100 - 45 damage snipe can't 2 shot an infestor due to HP regen - Overlords and Overseers should be large / armored, not medium - Hellions have 80 health instead of 90 - Why again do medivacs need an instant unload upgrade? | ||
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FreezingAcidRain
Canada18 Posts
Overall its very well done, and I do like some of the new abilities thrown into it the mod. I like the rework of the immortal and the staker. Although I do like cheaper hydralisk, I don’t like the nerf on the damage per scecond. I feel that the tier 1 and 2 hydralisk should be 2 different units. Tier one being hydra and the tier two being a morph of the hydra into a hydralisk with starcraft 2 stats. Because Roaches are in tier two, how does a Zerg vs. Zerg match counter a baneling bust in early game when all zerg units are light armoured? Can’t say I like the addition 25mineral cost per roach either, I always liked them as a low cost meat shield for support. The viper blind cloud should effect all units, otherwise its useless vs. protoss as the only bio unit is a zealot. The diamondback being a new unit added, will any other units other than hots be added? For the zerg it would be nice to see the lurker make a comeback, it would help with zerg's defence and go well with assault when combined with the hydralisk if it had alpha stats (+3 range upgrade, making a total of 9). | ||
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britnex
Germany2 Posts
The diamondback being a new unit added, will any other units other than hots be added? For the zerg it would be nice to see the lurker make a comeback, it would help with zerg's defence and go well with assault when combined with the hydralisk if it had alpha stats (+3 range upgrade, making a total of 9). The Diamonback is not a BW unit, its a great addition (we will see:D), but the Lurker isnt, pls let the him stay where is now and thats in Broodwar ! | ||
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800800
Afghanistan64 Posts
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NumbNuts
21 Posts
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RiFT_
United States15 Posts
Most of the differences you mentioned are intentional but not properly explained in the OP and our patch notes. Swarm hosts required large numbers to be effective defensively and once you had that many they functioned offensively quite well. Our solution to this had 2 parts, making them slower off of creep and changing the locust's attack to be slower, shorter, but linear aoe. Patch 11 for HotS was released 2 days after we released our Design Patch 1. Many of those changes aren't yet part of our mod and we don't intend to include all of them. The Hellbat change was interesting and distinguished them from the hellion somewhat, so we will most likely be looking to include it. Unfortunately the Oracle/MSC swap removed readily available detection for Protoss that is available in the other races' main tech tree. It also transforms the Oracle into a convulted harass support hybrid with the mix of Envision, Time Warp, and Pulsar Beam. While being a jack of all trades is nice it doesn't have as much of a coherent theme as our Oracle, we believe. The creep tumor and changeling changes in HotS are really more quality of life issues that don't affect core gameplay. I'll look into it. Hydras and Roaches actually had a complete swap. WoL Roach Warren had a build time of 55s and Hydra Den had build time of 40s. So our times are correct. You are correct on the Hellbat armor, since they were based off of the Firebat they retained that 1 base armor. My bad. The Thruster hotkey change happened in patch 11 when they renamed it along with the Infested Terran not benefitting from weapons upgrades. Since they retained the icons, it feels like they should benefit from the upgrades. If Infestors remain too strong we have been talking about reducing their base damage (to actually match marines >.>) or reducing the cast range so spamming them in battles is less viable and your Infestors are going to be in harms way if you choose to do so. With fungal being a decaying slow and having a reduced cast range, we felt that the damage from it was less of an issue? Chain fungals really aren't a thing unless you refresh it rapidly over and over, and since since it doesn't stack, to do so would be massively energy inefficient. It might be interesting to make fungal over 6 or 8 seconds now that it isn't a root. The rest of the team wasn't excited about it but it definitely worth considering. Burrow cast is strong, but we have yet to see it used, maybe have the cast range of all infestors spells reduced while burrowed. It was intended to emphasize the Infestor's role as an infiltrator. The Widow Mine build time was reduced when we cut it to 1 supply, the longest 1 supply build time other than the Widow Mine was the Hydra at 27s. It just was tying up your factories for a long time for what you were getting out of it. I must have missed that tooltip when I did this patch, good eye. (=_= yay tooltips) Reaper regen works despite the icon being grayed out, not sure how that popped back up, it wasn't an issue in the initial release afaik. All terran structures burn down when low, why should Auto-Turrets be any different? Even PDD burns down. I was not aware of the Yamato change, we are still looking at tweaking it. There are videos of snipe 2 shotting infestors if you time it properly, but you need multiple ghosts to do it. We could make it 50 but the ghost has a pretty good anti-caster spell : P (yes, I know that the infestor's large radius makes it less effective). Medium overlords/overseers were to fit more with the unit's visual appearance. Nothing about the overlord screams that it is heavily armored. Hellions received a health nerf because with the addition of Medium, they would chew through any medium or light units. Blue Flame Hellions were dominating hydras...and lings and drones. And since Immortal damage to light is so low they could hug immortals and absorb damage while dealing tons of splash too well. Finally, Hydras: stutter step is an important form of micro and anything with a high attack speed misses out on that. I'm not entirely sure those games were a fair representation of the matchup since it was a Masters Zerg vs a Diamond Zerg offracing as Protoss. "09:33 [All] Ooshmagoosh: I still don't know what you're doing 09:56 [All] Doominator: neither do I : P" That said, Hydras have a high damage output but are squishy, somewhat like marines but with nothing to heal them and more expensive. It is doing damage comparable to a marauder but with 60% of the health and no stim. Reducing their range would significantly impact them both early game and midgame as mass hydra would lose 1 row of hydras firing. The range upgrade to hit air was to make scouting overlords still a part of the game as well as allowing for windows of air play against greedy zergs. How effectively it does this is still up in the air. Unfortunately the spines flaring out is only part of their attack animation and not a model swap or model addition. It would be nice to be able to distinguish when any unit has a game changing upgrade visually but sometimes the art just isn't there (like hardened shields on the immortal). To your previous post: Yes, our Thor leaves much to be desired, but Patch 2 should have a rework of 250mm cannons that really adds a lot to the unit ^.^ I agree that the Roach isn't the most effective as a harassment unit when compared to the dps of lings or just crashing banes, but an important feature is its resilience. It's a cockroach that refuses to die. With our new speed boost upon burrowing, it rewards burrow micro in a way that no other unit does. When considering the Immortal, it is worth asking, what made the Dragoon a good unit? It was clunky and often would just decide to not fire. It had no abilities or unique interactions other than it was an armored ground unit that could hit both ground and air. It was the strong protoss core. Maybe what the Immortal needs is a projectile that is fun to watch. Maybe hardened shield needs to be tweaked to make terran less reliant on emp tvp. It isn't worth throwing it under the bus just to replace it with the dragoon and we want to keep the stalker as an elusive, mobile ground harass unit. We would love to hear suggestions on how to improve the Immortal but it sounds like you have given up on it. A slower, linear aoe colossus makes an interesting situation and is a drastic change. It borders on the old lurker. Yes its weakness to air makes dropship play non-existent, but adjusting it the colossus can be taken down by proper positioning should help with people feeling forced to spam air to air as the only answer. Also, Figment on the Dark Templar is interesting but they were simply being used as a damage steroid as opposed to any sort of creative play. If you have suggestions for a Dark Templar that is NOT BLINK OR INVULNERABILITY we would love to hear it. Design Patch 2 will also be working with Zerg air and likely be adding an additional high ground advantage. The economy is less than ideal, but hopefully toning down macro mechanics should put a dent in 3 base 200/200 pushes. | ||
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Nyvis
France284 Posts
And maybe make it be less strong against armored, but with better all around damage. | ||
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ItWhoSpeaks
United States362 Posts
Similarly with increasing the damage threshold, it actively makes the Immortal more of a niche, hard counter unit, simply because it ONLY can have its signature ability work against siege units like Tanks and Tempests. The design philosophy we are pursuing is actually in part derived from observations of BW. Tons of things were or felt "OP," at least until you got to see what the other units got. Mines are going to be tweaked in our next patch to give Immortals a harder time. Additionally, we are looking for good projectiles for Immortals to fire, allowing 75 energy PDD's to do work. if you have any ideas, let us know. This way, Hardened Shield can feel powerful but have strong answers that require some skill to bring forward and offer some counterplay as well. -Post change, Widow Mines, Ghosts and Ravens can all answer HS Immortals in different ways. Either by destroying the shield or negating their incoming damage, allowing your army to trade effectively. -Zerg has the Infestor's Fungal Growth, as well as a myriad of small damage sources. Blinding Cloud also make Immortals very unhappy. -Protoss has a very good reason to bring Storm to the field of battle, given that one perfect storm will break all Hardened Shields in an AoE. Time Warp slows their attackspeed to an absolute crawl. Chargelots remain an easy counter. Carriers are also very good as well provided they can keep their distance. All of these are potentially viable options. The Immortal isn't some niche unit, its something every race has to prepare for, there is no surprise or fake out. Each race has several strong options for dealing with Immortals, how they want to go about it is up to them. Hardened Shields simply add too much to the game to warrant removing over perceived balance issues. People don't watch Starcraft to watch death animations, if I wanted that, I could watch people play Gears of War. People watch Starcraft to see people build and move units around and fight other units. The beauty of BW was how long fights lasted, units generally lived a hell of a lot longer than their WoL counterparts. This is one area where SC2 has produced a healthy mechanic that prolongs fights, and creates a natural focus for pullback micro (Look at any Immortal drop play in SC2, its awesome to watch.) | ||
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Nyvis
France284 Posts
The thing is, mech is tanks. Playing hellions, thors, etc, isn't mech. The identity of mech isn't the fact that their units aren't bio. It's the fact that it's mainly positional play with siege tanks. And immortals negates tanks completely. Okay, widows mines, ravens or ghosts can remove their shield in a death ball confrontation. But in any case, you can't hold a zone with a few siege tank. This counters the necessary unit for positional play too well. | ||
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Doominator10
United States515 Posts
I disagree about holding a zone with a few tanks. The reason why it was nearly impossible in WoL (TvP), was because of immortals, instant re-maxes, and the expense of tanks. WoL immortals were designed from the ground up to destroy tanks. They have a fast firing rate, 3 shot tanks, and take nearly no damage from them. The entire purpose of the immortal, was to kill tanks. The only reason they are good against roaches and marauders is that forcefields help keep the immortal from being overrun. Protoss warp gate was so integral and came so early, that making tanks the core of your army is a logistical nightmare at all portions of the game. Put simply, tanks didn't do enough damage to protoss for their cost and the amount of time you have to spend on them, vs the amount of time protoss can remake their army. Siege tanks are 3 supply, and expensive. No matter what, you can not physically field as many factories as necessary to build enough quickly enough to actually make a difference. It takes 3 shots to kill a WoL Stalker, and 3 shots to kill an OG Immortal w/o hardened shields. What is the difference you may ask? --Tanks are 2 supply and 25 gas cheaper in OneGoal. What does this mean? You can build more tanks more quickly to cover a position. 25 gas over time adds up into a huge difference. It's an extra tech-lab factory per base than otherwise possible. (Assumes consistent macro) --Immortals no longer insta-kill tanks. It takes about (5-7? Check me please) for 1 immortal to kill 1 tank. Now, multiple immortals can still kill tanks pretty quickly, but more immortals mean more splash damage on the overall party, not including multiple tanks. So 1 tank will do more damage to a group of immortals. Since tanks are cheaper, you can field maybe 3 tanks instead of 2, so you can now insta-punish non-shielded immortals coming in range. Even with the shield, immortals becoming a core unit means they are more susceptible to splash damage, chipping away at hardened shield. Trust me, you can hold a position against a superior force with 2-3 well placed tanks, a wall and 2-3 widow mines. Without a wall (say mid map,) more tanks, hellion/hellbat meatshields, and some widowmines for shock and awe will obliterate a much costlier amount of immortals. Interaction with hellions, zealots, widow mines, stalkers, ghosts, and archons is a seperate discussion. | ||
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MNdakota
United States512 Posts
On January 13 2013 23:52 RiFT_ wrote: If you have suggestions for a Dark Templar that is NOT BLINK OR INVULNERABILITY we would love to hear it. It shouldn't have an ability. It's okay for it to just have an attack. | ||
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Nyvis
France284 Posts
I still think tanks are useless in TvP because one tempest can slowly pick apart your tanks line. | ||
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ItWhoSpeaks
United States362 Posts
WoL Immortals do 50 damage per shot before accounting for upgrades. One Goal Immortals do 25 and 4 supply of One Goal Immortals is more expensive than 4 Supply of WoL Immortals. (WoL costs you 250/100/4 vs OG 300/150) This means that while there may be more Immortals on the field, there is less other stuff lest the Protoss has a really baller econ. Another HUGE point is that Hardened Shield is an upgrade at Twilight, meaning that the Immortal is vulnerable to tankfire for key timings in the game. Allowing for stable Immortal pressure to exist alongside stable tank openings. Post HS, Terran has plenty of time to get tanks and mines up at points they want to hold. The last HUGE point is that OG Immortals have 80 shields instead of 100. That is two fewer tank shots required to break through. This means that a couple of tanks in a good position or with 2-4 supply worth of support can kill 6 Immortals provided they have good positioning. All of our data shows us that Immortals are strongest before Marauders come out in TvP, and then steadily become less powerful. If you have real data to show us, we will happily look at it. But without replays, we will have to stick by the data we have collected. | ||
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ItWhoSpeaks
United States362 Posts
Tempests can slowly kill tanklines for sure. But there is a key word to be had. Its slow. It takes about 7 Seconds for a pair of Tempests to kill A tank. Three bases is when Tempests generally can come out without sacrificing military power, meaning the Terran player has about 9 factories pumping out mech units. This isn't conjecture. These are the games Dakota plays every day. That said, we will be tweaking tempests to give opponents a few more options to deal with them. | ||
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Finnz
United Kingdom260 Posts
Great job guys keep it up x | ||
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