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Keep our forum clean! PLEASE post your WIP melee maps in this thread for initial feedback. -Barrin |
On July 06 2013 06:49 Timetwister22 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2013 06:44 sCnDiamond wrote:@Timetwister: Thank you for your detailed feedback. I reduced the map in size quite a bit, but the later bases are still somewhat boring. But in overall i still like it better now. My idea is that i want a map that feels cramped, because i want to give it a overgrown city / jungle theme. I am also streaming right now and will try different ideas about the last two bases. You can find my stream here. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/4tv5qnT.jpg) Erm, never design a map around aesthetic ideas. Aesthetics do not contribute toward the concept, as the concept is all about how you want the map to play out. Gameplay first, then looks. Always.
I know where you're coming from, but I totally disagree. Aesthetic concept (setting, certain scene, mood, illustrating a certain conflict, style, geometric design, etc etc etc) can be a great inspiration for a map idea and you should run with it as far as it can take you. Just remember that the layout has to be solid independent of aesthetics, of course. This usually means a drafting phase where you take the creativity of your aesthetic vision and generate lots of layout ideas, then an editing and refining phase where you ignore aesthetics pretty much and focus on creating a good layout. Then you recombine in the last phase where you do real aesthetics work and not just concepting. Always save that for last, too much work to waste. XD
Regarding the map itself, it definitely looks better, but it's still sort of oversized proportionally, and timetwister is right to say that it doesn't really have a coherent concept. That's fine if the pieces play well, but you can't really say they do right now because the proportion aren't tuned 100%. The middle is vastly open compared to standard, and even outside the nat highground is pretty open. I would try to smush the two sides together even more and cut down on the center openness, and I would also connect the low ground corner to the middle via a long looping pathway. It seems like this map wants to be about positional anticipation and controlling zones with highground or chokepoints, but always with alternative routes that might be really unfavorable but can be used if the attacker goes unscouted or forces the defender into a position that can't cover them. I think this fits the aesthetic idea too, so if it were me making the map I would play up this feature. Like "main avenues vs geurilla tactics". The new 1ramp on the center highground is already playing with this idea.
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@Timetwister:
I know it's not the way it should work. But it's what usually gets me started to make a new map. Once i'm on it, i think what i want in terms of gameplay and keep changing it until i like the layout. For this map, i want to go for macro map, which also allows for early aggression with a more open natural than usual and two possible 3rds which are very different in terms of vulnerabilities.
I also try to get things right which i'm not yet comfortable with. For example, at the moment i try to incorporate expansions which aren't backed by the map border and look for ways to include 1-tile ramps apart from the main plateau.
@EatThePath
Thank you for the input. I'm not content with the middle as well. I'll try your idea tomorrow.
This is how it looks now:
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/4oRp4AB.jpg)
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That is an obnoxious amount of pathing paint. Using the Dynamic Pathing Fill tool would make things much easier on yourself. You'd have all those no pathing zones done perfectly in about 30 seconds.
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On July 06 2013 08:59 Timetwister22 wrote:
That is an obnoxious amount of pathing paint. Using the Dynamic Pathing Fill tool would make things much easier on yourself. You'd have all those no pathing zones done perfectly in about 30 seconds.
I remember back before I discovered these. I actually went into the units panel and individually placed a ton of "Dynamic pathing blocker" entities.
Was not fun. Would not recommend.
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To be fair, painted pathing + "do not use footprint" doodads is the most reliable way to designate unpathable areas, and precise usage prevents weird pathing issues like with colossus putting their feet onto highground pods or chasms and whatnot, and sometimes even reapers doing the jump dance. But for most of that stuff, yeah, dynamic pathing fill object. 
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Guys, just a quick question, when you load Blizzard maps, how can you make sure, they're updated. I get old Warp Prism 
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On July 06 2013 10:24 EatThePath wrote:To be fair, painted pathing + "do not use footprint" doodads is the most reliable way to designate unpathable areas, and precise usage prevents weird pathing issues like with colossus putting their feet onto highground pods or chasms and whatnot, and sometimes even reapers doing the jump dance. But for most of that stuff, yeah, dynamic pathing fill object.
This actually isn't a problem.
1)+ Show Spoiler +![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/EIEzg3g.jpg) Take that high ground pod with trees. I want to make it completely unpathable, no funny business with Medivacs or Reapers, but for the sake of demonstration I can only use dynamic pathing fillers.
2)+ Show Spoiler +![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/9txgL0v.jpg) This is what the pathing looks like with just 1 pathing filler. Note the blue edge - this is where reapers and colossi trip up.
3)+ Show Spoiler +![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/tt0qplh.jpg) Using a second pathing filler on this region makes the cliff-edge also unpathable. Something previously an issue becomes a non-issue.
So yeah, pathing really is that easy.
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On July 06 2013 17:57 NewSunshine wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2013 10:24 EatThePath wrote:To be fair, painted pathing + "do not use footprint" doodads is the most reliable way to designate unpathable areas, and precise usage prevents weird pathing issues like with colossus putting their feet onto highground pods or chasms and whatnot, and sometimes even reapers doing the jump dance. But for most of that stuff, yeah, dynamic pathing fill object. This actually isn't a problem. 1) + Show Spoiler +Take that high ground pod with trees. I want to make it completely unpathable, no funny business with Medivacs or Reapers, but for the sake of demonstration I can only use dynamic pathing fillers. 2) + Show Spoiler +This is what the pathing looks like with just 1 pathing filler. Note the blue edge - this is where reapers and colossi trip up. 3) + Show Spoiler +Using a second pathing filler on this region makes the cliff-edge also unpathable. Something previously an issue becomes a non-issue. So yeah, pathing really is that easy.
I didn't know you could put a filler in the cliff area, that's cool. Have to make sure you're precise about it though. You do this style in your maps?
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On July 07 2013 03:01 EatThePath wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2013 17:57 NewSunshine wrote:On July 06 2013 10:24 EatThePath wrote:To be fair, painted pathing + "do not use footprint" doodads is the most reliable way to designate unpathable areas, and precise usage prevents weird pathing issues like with colossus putting their feet onto highground pods or chasms and whatnot, and sometimes even reapers doing the jump dance. But for most of that stuff, yeah, dynamic pathing fill object. This actually isn't a problem. 1) + Show Spoiler +Take that high ground pod with trees. I want to make it completely unpathable, no funny business with Medivacs or Reapers, but for the sake of demonstration I can only use dynamic pathing fillers. 2) + Show Spoiler +This is what the pathing looks like with just 1 pathing filler. Note the blue edge - this is where reapers and colossi trip up. 3) + Show Spoiler +Using a second pathing filler on this region makes the cliff-edge also unpathable. Something previously an issue becomes a non-issue. So yeah, pathing really is that easy. I didn't know you could put a filler in the cliff area, that's cool. Have to make sure you're precise about it though. You do this style in your maps?
Yeah man!
You still have to know how to paint it, though, cus when you place doodads on the map for decoration - that aren't on a high ground pod - it's really the only way to make sure it's perfect. I also disable the footprint of every single doodad on my maps - except LoS blockers.
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![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/uhehVHA.jpg)
Map.
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Is it just me or is that a 2 width ramp on the mains? Also rush distance seems pretty big.
I would love to hear some more details on the map: size, rush distance in seconds it takes for a worker to go from ramp to ramp and does the rocks block off the gold.
If the rocks does not block the gold then I like it very much since it gives a unique option for Terran to fly a CC there.
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![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/WP88MIy.jpg)
WIP map. Trying forced paths and 12 bases.
[edit] Syphon that's a sick map but I can't see Zerg doing well with such tight chokes and difficult expos. I'd suggest opening up the map.
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On July 08 2013 09:14 moskonia wrote:
Is it just me or is that a 2 width ramp on the mains? Also rush distance seems pretty big.
I would love to hear some more details on the map: size, rush distance in seconds it takes for a worker to go from ramp to ramp and does the rocks block off the gold.
If the rocks does not block the gold then I like it very much since it gives a unique option for Terran to fly a CC there.
It's just you.
128 x 136 (tall), don't know the rush distance yet but it'll probably be similar to CK based on size. Rocks block the gold.
EDIT
Syphon that's a sick map but I can't see Zerg doing well with such tight chokes and difficult expos. I'd suggest opening up the map.
Which part do you think could do the most more open? I was thinking the 3 and 9 need the most overhauling.
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Monitor, can you show the natural wall off? How many buildings does it take to Nexus wall? seems like this map will play out really aggressively since there is no main ramp and no nat choke. I actually really like it because the map has a theme, which is hard bases, but I think most people would not since this map would require a really different metagame from the standard map.
One thing I don't like is the islands, I would much rather them being semi islands or having 1 width ramps. Imo it would make it better, although I do wonder how it will play out since these feature is so underused but in here you put the islands pretty much in the mid, compared to the 'norm' which is in the sides.
Syphon8, that is shame about the golds, but if you are going to put rocks over them why not make them full gold which is 6 mineral and 2 gas; keeping it a half gold while still having rocks is really not necessary imo. I really don't know why I thought the map was huge, guess just my imagination.
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Very new to making maps in SC2 (though I did mess around with the BW campaign editor). This map was more of a way for me to get the basics of the editor, and there's still so much more to learn. Unfortunately I'm all about the story, and liked the idea of a city under water with a big air space in the middle before I really began piecing together what that meant for a 'balanced' map. Anyways, feel free to write up all criticisms and comments, and I'll look through what everyone else has done It's currently uploaded on the SEA server, mostly so that I can play it against decent bots for testing.
DROWNED CITY
Distance between mains:
Ground: 308
Air: 112
Narrative
+ Show Spoiler +"Harlon Verner, standing before the great windows of the council chambers, cast his gaze up to the sky and found that it was still empty. His call for aid had clearly not been heeded. He cursed; first at that 'sonofabitch 'Emperor', and then at the screeching Zerg that were beginning to stream through the city streets; his city streets. His shining jewel in the wasteland was being taken from him, but he wasn't prepared to share. Striding over to his command station be began, almost casually, to destroy that which he loved most. Verner ignored the adjutant's various warnings as he continued. He heard gunfire in the building, just as he was bringing his protocols to a close; the swarm had reached his level at last. The screams of his men, good men, told him the battle was over, and moments later his door began to cave in. A screeching hydralisk was throwing itself against the titanium, trying to press through the small opening it had already created. More zerg were undoubtedly on their way. Verner threw it a contemptible grimace whilst the hydralisk, unwilling to wait for the door to be fully open, peppered the mayor's right arm with spines. Verner cried out in pain, almost toppling over, but he righted himself; "Engage the protocol, adjutant." There was a beep of recognition, and then a great roar, greater even than the cries of the zerg invaders. It took less than a minute for the crashing waters to pour once again through the valley, taking with them zerg and human alike."
Harlon Verner was a man with a vision; a man who turned a dustbowl into a metropolis. By draining one of the great lakes on Arden, a small, barren planet, he had the necessary break from the howling winds in order to begin mineral mining there in earnest; and rich in minerals the planet was, leading to a very sudden increase in wealth for those who braved the journey with him. With Verner's vision, there weren't only minerals and mines to be found there either; in less than twenty years Arden went from being uninhabited, to the number one holiday destination in the sector, famed in particular for their casinos, clubs and shows. Now, since the destruction of the city, it's a favored spot for scavengers and opportunists, there to pick through the corpse of a great man's dream.
Images
+ Show Spoiler +
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![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/fwc8V4o.jpg)
Playable bounds: 140x140
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@AusBandit : the concept could be good but you have to widen every pathways and reduce the dead space
@-NegativeZero- Good map but the fact that you always have to expand toward your opponent will not please everybody
@ monitor : The rush distance is short and appart from the middle, the direct path is very narrow . I don't think anybody will take the risk to screw up their timing just to use the side paths.
@Syphon8 : Very nice map but isn't it too big ? What are the proportions ?
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@Syphon8 - I like the map conceptually but feel that some areas could still use some work. The middle feels very inaccessible considering how close the 3rd and 4th bases are to the natural. I'd put a bigger ramp leading up to the 2/8 oclock highgrounds from the defensive side, seems like you could get your army stuck up there with the little single ramps.
@monitor - Very nice pathing & flow around the map, which is something many of us seem to ignore. I wonder if some of the side paths being that long will make it tough for Terran & Toss to keep their army in the right position. Why bother leaving the main on the same level as the nat? it doesn't seem to add anything except a tight choke width
@AusBandit - Unfortunately the map is too big and has too many tight chokes, the aesthetics and theme are nicely done though especially for someone new. With some more practice you'll be very good at this mapping thing.
@ -NegativeZero- - Seems like armies pathing from nat to nat might get divided up or confused at those ramps in the middle. Maybe if you moved the natural choke closer to the 3rd, it might make that 3rd more viable for toss as well as help the flow of the map.
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Sypon: Blinking into those mains may be an issue
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I wish one could make an unblinkable wall...
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EPT
