Work In Progress Melee Maps - Page 157

Keep our forum clean! PLEASE post your WIP melee maps in this thread for initial feedback. -Barrin

JaredStarr

Canada115 Posts

February 12 2015 19:52 GMT

#3121

The debris are there to represent that pathway initially being blocked, I just haven't decided exactly how it will be done.

I'm still debating on putting another gold in the 1:30 position... I feel like the gold would get in the way instead of benefiting that space. I want to create some incentive to expand upwards and give that space in the map more importance. I was also considering taking the current gold out and moving it to 1:30.

[image loading]

Edit: Little bit more messing around: + Show Spoiler +

Antares777

United States1971 Posts

February 13 2015 04:09 GMT

#3122

@JaredStarr: Firstly, I'm giving feedback on the version in spoilers.

The bottom left expansions are too close to each other to be separate expansions. They should be merged into one or pushed further apart from one another. On the opposite side of the map, you have three bases which are separated by practically no terrain changes. These two regions need more planning, though the smiley face is cool.

You currently have four bases behind two chokes since the other chokes require the destruction of two destructible rocks each. I feel that the amount of rocks and the ways that you used them here on this map makes safe play and expansion far too easy.

I really like the location of the center gold base. It's cool that you can attack half of the mineral line and a geyser from either high ground and the whole thing from the watchtower, which is more difficult to get to because of the rocks.

@OtherWorld and EatThePath: I've taken into account both of your suggestions and tried to open the map up more around the gold bases, make the main more resistant to Blink, and pushing the alternate third out a little more. I also added no pathing areas to the high ground so that the layout is more clear (and also so that I can get a more accurate analyzer with Blink range).

[image loading]

+ Show Spoiler [Analyzer with Blink Range] +

Thoughts? I may have made the center too small. The good news about this layout is that there is now one fastest route from main to main (or nat to nat) instead of a split path though.

EDIT: updated the layout slightly: + Show Spoiler [Analyzer Overview] +

OtherWorld

France17333 Posts

February 13 2015 05:53 GMT

#3123

The ramps leading to the space in front of the natural and to the vertical third feel like they could be wider.

Coppermantis

United States845 Posts

February 13 2015 07:54 GMT

#3124

I ultimately ended up not changing the main/nat setup because no matter what I did, it just became...boring. I wasn't too fond of the fifth base though, so I changed that.

I miiiight bring the lower level closer in to the natural to let stalkers blink across.

JaredStarr

Canada115 Posts

February 13 2015 21:46 GMT

#3125

Coppermantis: I like the edges a whole lot more, looks way more appealing for army movements. I like the bridge/rock tower combo. But I think the watchtower can be taken out and that choke can be opened up a lot more. I can see that being a major engagement zone.

WIP:
[image loading]

I will update this post with a analyzer image, just need to draw out the pathing.

Edit:
+ Show Spoiler [Analyzer] +

[AULFL]Khala

12 Posts

February 13 2015 22:44 GMT

#3126

Name: Furious Heights
Size: 140x164

[image loading]

JaredStarr

Canada115 Posts

February 18 2015 01:58 GMT

#3127

Some experimenting ... Air blockers would be in the middle. I'm not 100% sure what the air rush is, but even imagining the air blockers in place seems pretty short so I popped a couple high yields in the main for a little extra defensive boost against gas plays.

Other feature would be 2 completely separated attack paths, one more focused on rush plays has a XNT that catches anything taking that route and the other focused on macro plays ... I'm thinking of pulling the map out to the right a bit more so the macro side could offer something more interesting to the game but I prefer to find a way to do that without increasing the map size.

[image loading]

NinjaDuckBob

184 Posts

February 18 2015 19:03 GMT

#3128

@Jared, I will note that the extra income from 4 workers mining off of the Gold minerals is about 2 and a half more worker's worth. 6 mining off of them is about 3 and a half more worth. Just something to keep in mind.

Antares777

United States1971 Posts

February 18 2015 22:19 GMT

#3129

I don't really like mixed mineral lines, ~~since Mules will give Terran a larger advantage compared to the other races.~~ (nevermind, thanks Templar) This might just be my preference though.

The mains could be made a little larger, but it isn't that big of a deal since the natural is large enough to make up for the small mains.

If the middle is going to have air blockers, make sure you have some aesthetic addition to indicate that units cannot fly over that area, like giant rock spires or something.

I think collapsible rocks would be an excellent addition to the fast path so that it could be blocked off, kind of like on Secret Spring.

I like the two entrance natural and hope that your idea works.

The_Templar

your Country52797 Posts

February 18 2015 22:57 GMT

#3130

On February 19 2015 07:19 Antares777 wrote:
I don't really like mixed mineral lines, since Mules will give Terran a larger advantage compared to the other races. This might just be my preference though.

The mains could be made a little larger, but it isn't that big of a deal since the natural is large enough to make up for the small mains.

If the middle is going to have air blockers, make sure you have some aesthetic addition to indicate that units cannot fly over that area, like giant rock spires or something.

I think collapsible rocks would be an excellent addition to the fast path so that it could be blocked off, kind of like on Secret Spring.

I like the two entrance natural and hope that your idea works.

MULEs mine 30 from gold patches.

Big J

Austria16289 Posts

February 19 2015 01:47 GMT

#3131

WIP Island map idea:

And G style analysis
+ Show Spoiler +

More ideas with it:
The idea behind the main island is to allow for a standard main+natural setup. In my opinion a third base is necessary in any SC2 map to put economic pressure on a 1-2 basing opponent, that's what the third base is there. However, it is very special since it is gold, but it is also blocked in a way that unless you take down the rocks, you are mining from a mineral only gold base.

The fractal layout:
I think this is more interesting than plain dead airspace, since it allows more ground and therefore dropheavy play to unload on the islands if they get pressured by flyers. The units might get stranded however...

The middle:
This is kind of a winners setup. Taking the middle and putting up defenses might allow you to split the map in a favorable way against an opponent. It should further encourage the usage of ground units besides air units and gives those who are willing to leave the one or other little hero behind a lot of extra vision.

The map might require another base per side, which would probably be put on the island under/above the starting location.

The_Templar

your Country52797 Posts

February 19 2015 02:08 GMT

#3132

Interesting stuff Big J. Here's my island map

Analysis, And G style:
+ Show Spoiler +

EatThePath

United States3943 Posts

February 19 2015 06:14 GMT

#3133

@BigJ: Make the tower in the middle on an island and give the connection between the two bases there a donut shape. It's too much of a winners pair of bases now, the distance is ridiculously short between them. Maybe there should be super narrow chokepoints on the connections between them as well. In fact, maybe there should be a very roundabout connected path between the mains using the islands you already have, but with a set of rocks, say 2-4 total.

@Templar: I like the big islands TR and BL. You should put unbuildable bricks on the gold though to prevent flying there or ez gold 3rd for terran. CC into CC anyone?

JaredStarr

Canada115 Posts

February 19 2015 17:02 GMT

#3134

@Templar: I kinda feel like the middle should be debris instead of raised land. T gets a reaper scout advantage plus scanner sweeps Z has the infamous overlord and P has to wait for obs or warpgate tech to warp a unit across the middle gap. I think it would create some cool standoffs in the middle of the map that still ultimately forces airplay dominance.

The debris between 3rd and 4th base is cool, I'm assuming there's a hex of wiggle room between that space. The raise space between the 4th and (potential) 5th is pretty neat too. Looks like to can blink into the gold from mainland ... also very cool.

@BigJ: Blinkstalkers would navigate the map like nothing. Can't say if it's a broken feature, just pointing it out. I also agree with ETP about the center donut/XNT combo

Edit: I took the golds out on my map, going to refine the right side and will post it up when I'm happy.

Antares777

United States1971 Posts

February 19 2015 17:29 GMT

#3135

@Big J
I like the middle of the map. I think since it is an island map, it's okay for it to be a winner's set up. You might want to modify the central tower though. I'm thinking make the tower accessible on both sides, but blocking the path, like what I tried on Ancient Realm but then removed. Since it's an island map, it could totally work!

@The_Templar
I love how Blink Stalkers and cliffwalkers can still traverse the map. I really like the high ground right outside the main before the third.

I'm not going to discuss balance because what is balanced for island maps? Who knows...

Big J

Austria16289 Posts

February 19 2015 18:16 GMT

#3136

Thanks for the input guys. some Update, not sure if you meant this with the "Donut" thing, but that's what I took from it. :D
What I'd like to provide with this map is to make ground based play (like blink stalkers or drop/ground play) somewhat viable, without making it possible to walk across the map in any way, say with cliffwalkers like colossi or reapers).
@reapers: I don't want Terran to be able to open standard reaper here. Because I feel like this would be an unfair advantage, if not balancewise, than at least in terms of "not needing to come up with something out of the ordinary".
@blink stalkers: I'm aware of that. If you warp in onto the lowground island from your main base, it is 3 blinks with highground vision and 4 blinks without it (to the the gold base). That goes back to my general vision of making ground units semiviable. It takes a lot of time to cross with stalkers, but they aren't completely out of the equation.
Regardless, I raised the small island with the base on it one level above the surrounding islands to prevent attacking onto it too easily with stalkers, since it is already very hard to defend anyways with very little building space for statics.

@Templar: I like that you are doing the opposite of what I do with the island idea. You enforce the concept of only having to cross one small gap to play a kind of standard game and let protoss cross it relatively easily with Colossi too, since they have a rather hard time dropping bigger amounts of units compared to Nydus/Overlord or Medivacs-that-you-build-anyways.
Two things I'd change: the gold floating for Terran as natural could be problematic (e.g. CC first gold base. In comparison, the gold base as I use it doesn't give you gas if you take it early and is takeable for every race; yet might still favor Terran/Zerg because Protoss might not want to build 2nexi for one gold base, but T can float and Z can often use a macro hatch later on anyways; but i feel like that kind of stuff is much less clear favoring one race than the ability to float early)
The second one is that I think in the middle you can warp in over the gap.. I feel like that is a problem for PvP and PvZ in particular, allowing you to play very standard allins.
A macro player here might be trying to rush air or drop tech and be very unit light at the time a warpgate allin can hit. In particular in PvP without scouting that just sounds like an aweful metagame.

The_Templar

your Country52797 Posts

February 19 2015 18:27 GMT

#3137

A macro player here might be trying to rush air or drop tech and be very unit light at the time a warpgate allin can hit. In particular in PvP without scouting that just sounds like an aweful metagame.

I don't see why you'd want to necessarily rush air or drop tech since you lose against a very aggressive build (although I think a phoenix or robotics opener is just fine). Playing standard and getting the necessary tech without cutting a ton of corners should be fine.

You can do a 2 base all in in PvZ but it will be much weaker and Zerg has perfectly fine transportation for ground units so it doesn't hurt too much to get them (drops, nydus).

I kinda feel like the middle should be debris instead of raised land. T gets a reaper scout advantage plus scanner sweeps Z has the infamous overlord and P has to wait for obs or warpgate tech to warp a unit across the middle gap. I think it would create some cool standoffs in the middle of the map that still ultimately forces airplay dominance.

I might put destructible ice on top of the raised area, or just remove it altogether

Big J

Austria16289 Posts

February 19 2015 19:02 GMT

#3138

Well, I'm trying to think of BOs for PvP on this map. I'm absolutly not a PvP expert, but I imagine that one might want to open Stargate here. Now say you open stargate with gateway units, you are very behind against stargate without gateway units. If it is oracle vs phoenix it is a major catastrophe for you already. So I initially feel like the standard opening here should be phoenix vs phoenix without any gateway units. And you have no scouting intell at all until your fist stargate unit crosses the map.
At that point your opponent can have a 3-4gate warpin in on your side of the map. A little further away than usual, but still there are mass unit coming and you are probably on 1SG+1gate.
I think without vital scouts like number of gases and where the first chronoboosts go into and without having to wait until the enemies scouting probe leaves, the metagame might be a huge gamble if warpgate rushes are on the table. This is of course all theorycraft, feel free to critizise the bullshit I come up with about a matchup I don't play.

TheRealSpaceCowboy

21 Posts

February 19 2015 21:05 GMT

#3139

On February 18 2015 10:58 JaredStarr wrote:
Some experimenting ... Air blockers would be in the middle. I'm not 100% sure what the air rush is, but even imagining the air blockers in place seems pretty short so I popped a couple high yields in the main for a little extra defensive boost against gas plays.

Love the gold patches in main

Here are two version of another idea of mine, note that the exact mineral placement is just temporary but roughly as it should look like at the end. The small paths left and right of the naturals are blocked by rocks which aren't picked up by the analyzer. I plan to have all spawns enabled. In a scenario where both players are on the same side (top, bottom, left or right) you'd probably expand away from the opponent (unless T maybe?) but if it's cross-spawn it is up to the player to choose a side. Which might end up to be the same side the opponent choose or the opposite. Also allows you to react if the opponents third is scouted and your own not built yet. CC's in Version 2 are just for demo.

Version 1
+ Show Spoiler +

Version 2
+ Show Spoiler +

The_Templar

your Country52797 Posts

February 19 2015 21:09 GMT

#3140

TheRealSpaceCowboy, that's a really small rush map. Especially with those straight paths, I would make the map much larger, more like 144x144 at minimum.
It looks really easy to cannon/bunker rush a zerg natural expansion by walling off the main ramp due to the mineral patches. Alternatively, it's nearly impossible to hold your natural in PvZ and TvZ since there are three wide open entrances.
Edit: Was referring to version 1, didn't see version 2.
Version 2 has way too many bases (24). The absolute maximum is 20. The same natural problems exist in TvZ/PvZ with three entrances.

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