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Keep our forum clean! PLEASE post your WIP melee maps in this thread for initial feedback. -Barrin |
On October 14 2012 14:28 EatThePath wrote:
Well, why do any of these changes improve it? It seems like you don't understand the major problems with WNC and added a bunch of random stuff. I kept what I liked, removed what I didn't. In my opinion, XNC is superior to about 75% of modern tournament maps as in 'I can blindly decide to expand without scouting whatsoever into 3base turtling and keep my army on one hotkey in between my 3 bases and defend it without proactively splitting my army."
XNC is pretty cool because you cannot just defend your natural with 1 bunker/spine/cannon, you actually have to scout and react to stuff coming and react ahead of time.
I realize a lot of people like that kind of stuff, but I personally don't, that's all.
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On October 15 2012 22:42 Barrin wrote:
<testing>
thread renamed to "Work In Progress Melee Maps"
fits nicely on sidebar ^^
good job
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On October 14 2012 12:49 SiskosGoatee wrote:Well, context is that it's basically a new take on Xel'NAga Caverns I'd honestly might just make the entire map wider though. Here's a top view of the first version. I feel XNC was a pretty cool map but not really up to date with today's metagame of course.
Your nat -> backdoor is shorter than nat -> nat. This is probably a huge problem given how far apart your main and backdoor are. It's not a question of splitting your army at that point, it's just pushing your forces way out of position.
Also the two entrances to the main will probably force 4gate in PvP.
You also don't have very much open space (only at the middle bases, really). This will make zerg ground armies substantially weaker, which may be necessary because of how open the nat is and how hard the 3rd is, but I'm still not sure about it.
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On October 15 2012 23:37 Barrin wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2012 23:01 Samro225am wrote:On October 15 2012 22:42 Barrin wrote:
<testing>
thread renamed to "Work In Progress Melee Maps"
fits nicely on sidebar ^^ good job Thank Semmo too ^^
Consider the both thunked. 
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On October 15 2012 23:07 RFDaemoniac wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2012 12:49 SiskosGoatee wrote:Well, context is that it's basically a new take on Xel'NAga Caverns I'd honestly might just make the entire map wider though. Here's a top view of the first version. I feel XNC was a pretty cool map but not really up to date with today's metagame of course. Your nat -> backdoor is shorter than nat -> nat. This is probably a huge problem given how far apart your main and backdoor are. It's not a question of splitting your army at that point, it's just pushing your forces way out of position. Also the two entrances to the main will probably force 4gate in PvP. There are rocks at the backdoor. I decided to try something new with a backdoor with rocks which lead to a potential third, you can break it as you take the third or your enemy can break it if you aren't paying attention. You can't warp in over it, it's pretty hard to use it for 4gates unless you first want to break
You also don't have very much open space (only at the middle bases, really). This will make zerg ground armies substantially weaker Indeed, I have currently spaced it up a little:
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/ZiJ1zl.jpg)
which may be necessary because of how open the nat is and how hard the 3rd is, but I'm still not sure about it. Third should be fairly easy, there's no way in for your enemy because it's protected by rocks except first destroying the rocks or going through the natural, he can however put ranged units on the cliff behind it so you have to destroy your own back rocks into the Tastless Secret Hallway to be able to comfortably reach it without walking around which does leave you open more for backstabs
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![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/RP0Y5.jpg)
First ever WIP. Really having fun doing it though. I'm aware this needs major improvements, but I'm not sure what, exactly.
Any and all input is welcome!
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Aesthetics aside, it's not completely impossible to play on honestly as it looks, it has the same set of flaws you often see. What I would list as flaws are:
- ramp too far from the minerals at the expansion, this is something you only see non Zerg players do, ZvZ becomes a giant baneling slugfest without queens being able to protect the expansion and block the ramp at the same time as well as comfortably beinga ble spread creep down there and walk down there from the main. ZvZ becomes very hard with minerals so far from the ramp.
- The layout to the outlier 2 expansions flows very unnaturally, you want to avoid making complicated paths like that for the most part.
Apart from that, except for that it looks pretty clunky, I don't think there are any major gameplay problems with it honestly at first glance, it just looks extremely clunky and badly textured. The amount of straight lines also makes it look not that well.
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On October 16 2012 05:19 Giant_Panda wrote:
First ever WIP. Really having fun doing it though. I'm aware this needs major improvements, but I'm not sure what, exactly.
Any and all input is welcome!
This guy, doing it right. XD
I just spent too much time on TL but I will be back and list some pointers if other don't get to it first. godspeed
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On October 16 2012 05:19 Giant_Panda wrote:First ever WIP. Really having fun doing it though. I'm aware this needs major improvements, but I'm not sure what, exactly. Any and all input is welcome!
Here's just some general stuff that I think you should apply to your map:
-Enlarge everything (mainly the main size); make the whole map bigger
-Try to make mineral lines "normal" like you see on all competitive melee maps
-Avoid use of any cardinal ramps because they cause issues like FFs, wall offs, and more
-Not sure why you have rocks blocking the corner expos!
-Make sure the rush distance, natural to natural, isn't too short
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On October 16 2012 11:35 monitor wrote:Show nested quote +On October 16 2012 05:19 Giant_Panda wrote:First ever WIP. Really having fun doing it though. I'm aware this needs major improvements, but I'm not sure what, exactly. Any and all input is welcome! Here's just some general stuff that I think you should apply to your map: -Enlarge everything (mainly the main size); make the whole map bigger -Try to make mineral lines "normal" like you see on all competitive melee maps -Avoid use of any cardinal ramps because they cause issues like FFs, wall offs, and more -Not sure why you have rocks blocking the corner expos! -Make sure the rush distance, natural to natural, isn't too short
To add to this list, your main/nat ramp is too big!!!, it should be the smallest possible diagonal ramp.
Use NSEW ramps only when you absolutely have to. Players aren't used to them, most people look on them as aesthetically inferior, they behave a little differently for FF and walls as monitor mentioned. This doesn't mean they don't work -- you can still forcefield on them and whatnot of course. I try to choose a map orientation that has east- and west-facing cardinal ramps because the north/south ones are very deceptive in the isometric perspective. It's not the end of the world but you might consider rotating your map 90deg but whatever.
The general design is actually pretty good, the proportions aren't far off and the expanion pattern is okay. The half base is kind of random. This should probably just be a full base. Try to sequester it more so that it is separate from the corner base (NW and SE); this way opposing players could hold each base. The cliff behind it is quite awkward. If you want to do that why not rotate the whole arrangement to use up some of the rather open space and make the high ground less cramped.
Definitely increase the main size a bit.
Not a bad map at all in concept. ^^
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This is the version I'm having right now:
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/sxWpZ.jpg)
Still not completely sure what to do with the centre but I feel I like this version a lot.
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On October 16 2012 19:41 SiskosGoatee wrote:This is the version I'm having right now: + Show Spoiler +Still not completely sure what to do with the centre but I feel I like this version a lot.
As a revision of XNC, I like it, the thing is, this map looks really small in general, to the point that the basic proportions are suffering. The main, for instance, feels very small, I think you should erase the backdoor entrance to the main and raise the middle ground area, making the main larger and giving it more usable space. The expansion by the main will still work just fine. The center also looks really tight, and thinking through how the center plays out really conveys how small the map is, also some of the high ground obstructions can either be made smaller or just removed flat out. It certainly would take some work, but you might want to consider stretching the map both horizontally and vertically - some of the map features could really use some room to breathe. I hate the word stretch, because it makes something very complicated sound very simple, but it's what this map needs.
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On October 16 2012 23:13 NewSunshine wrote:Show nested quote +On October 16 2012 19:41 SiskosGoatee wrote:This is the version I'm having right now: + Show Spoiler +Still not completely sure what to do with the centre but I feel I like this version a lot. As a revision of XNC, I like it, the thing is, this map looks really small in general, to the point that the basic proportions are suffering. The main, for instance, feels very small, I think you should erase the backdoor entrance to the main and raise the middle ground area, making the main larger and giving it more usable space. The expansion by the main will still work just fine. The center also looks really tight, and thinking through how the center plays out really conveys how small the map is, also some of the high ground obstructions can either be made smaller or just removed flat out. It certainly would take some work, but you might want to consider stretching the map both horizontally and vertically - some of the map features could really use some room to breathe. I hate the word stretch, because it makes something very complicated sound very simple, but it's what this map needs. I'm partial to agree honestly, I've stretched the map up a couple of times already and I feel I should do it one more time a way, I didn't want to create a giant map, it is Xel'Naga Caverns after all but it might just be a tad too small still.
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On October 16 2012 19:41 SiskosGoatee wrote:This is the version I'm having right now: + Show Spoiler +Still not completely sure what to do with the centre but I feel I like this version a lot.
I feel this map is really bad for zerg. Everything is much to clamped up. There is no real open space where zerg can engange. I think you need to rework the center again, although it looks nice, it just has to many choke points. Sentry/Immortal seems really strong.
This map doesn't look FFE able at all. Too wide nat + backdoor at nat. Dont know how to change that though. That was one of the main reason XNC was deemed a bad map. But you might want to stick with that since its a XNC remake.
Also, why the backdoor to main? Didn't everyone agree on, that this was much to imbalanced early game? I kinda like the flow of the map should people hit lategame though. Zergs can't sit comfortably on 4 base broodlord because of the two backdoors.
Do you plan on make all those cliff isles along the center pathable? That might be far to good for terrans, but hey it's XNC.
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On October 17 2012 07:14 ulfryc wrote:Show nested quote +On October 16 2012 19:41 SiskosGoatee wrote:This is the version I'm having right now: + Show Spoiler +Still not completely sure what to do with the centre but I feel I like this version a lot. I feel this map is really bad for zerg. Everything is much to clamped up. There is no real open space where zerg can engange. I think you need to rework the center again, although it looks nice, it just has to many choke points. Sentry/Immortal seems really strong. I do share this concern honestly, I'm probably either going to stretch it or just remove some of the chokes.
This map doesn't look FFE able at all. Too wide nat + backdoor at nat. Dont know how to change that though. That was one of the main reason XNC was deemed a bad map. But you might want to stick with that since its a XNC remake.
Not at all: see here. Everything is protected by the cannon from melee attacks, it's walled of with 2 3x3 and 1 2x2 buildings, the first pylon powers all buildings, you can make a completely tight wall with 3 3x3 buildings and the only way to get from one side to the other is to destroy some rocks or destroy parts of the wall.
Also, why the backdoor to main? Didn't everyone agree on, that this was much to imbalanced early game? I kinda like the flow of the map should people hit lategame though. Zergs can't sit comfortably on 4 base broodlord because of the two backdoors. Well, it has rocks so it should be fine, you need to put something to guard it I guess, by the time it's broken down you should be able to deal with it. It provides you easier access to take the outside base as your third and it allows reapers a nice entry path.
Do you plan on make all those cliff isles along the center pathable? That might be far to good for terrans Yap, I like tank drops and I've taken care to allow watchtower vision to cover them all. You can take it out.
but hey it's XNC. http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/sc2-korean/maps/396_Xel%26%23039%3BNaga%20Caverns
XNC was actually fairly balanced, it was in no way ZvT broken, the biggest imbalance as you can see is ZvP with 55% in Zerg's favour.
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Okay, it's stretched out now:
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/ACZpL.jpg)
It became so open that I added some crevasses to make it less open, not completely sure if they are necessary but I need to do some more balanced testing with friends.
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On October 17 2012 15:03 SiskosGoatee wrote:Okay, it's stretched out now: It became so open that I added some crevasses to make it less open, not completely sure if they are necessary but I need to do some more balanced testing with friends.
Still looks kind of choked up - maybe reducing the size of the 2 big high ground pods in the center would help.
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EPT
