Work In Progress Melee Maps - Page 15

On October 27 2012 02:52 JoFeSboyAT wrote:
Currently the nat can be sieged from the 3rd, this is compounded by the fact that the way to get to the 3rd is ridiculously long. I think the rocks on the ramp should be removed. Overall the layout is pretty simple.

On October 27 2012 02:50 moskonia wrote:
New map I am working on, no aesthetics yet though:



Things to note here;
-Very open map, but there are clear choke points in the terrain to use by those who want chokes.
-Rather large map, 164 x 168 playable bounds.
-The rock in the middle opens up an open path that is not viewed by the watch towers, opening it can make for much easier surprise attacks.
-There is a path through the sides that is not monitored by the watch towers, but it is a long path.
-There are 3 options for a 3rd base, and non of them is an easy one. The choice for each one would be chosen by the style of the player.
-There is a backdoor to the main, which while controversial I think with the current metagame is rather OK.

-Very open map, but there are clear choke points in the terrain to use by those who want chokes.

-Rather large map, 164 x 168 playable bounds.

-The rock in the middle opens up an open path that is not viewed by the watch towers, opening it can make for much easier surprise attacks.

-There are 3 options for a 3rd base, and non of them is an easy one. The choice for each one would be chosen by the style of the player.

-There is a backdoor to the main, which while controversial I think with the current metagame is rather OK.

On October 27 2012 05:00 iamcaustic wrote:

Nope. Expect many 2-base all-ins to exploit the shorter/easier rush distance and superior positioning of this path. I'll be amazed if a single game on this map reaches 3-base vs. 3-base.

On October 27 2012 05:10 SiskosGoatee wrote:
I definitely don't agree with this assesment, why would you ever attack up that small choke if you're doing a 2base all in, it's pretty much suicide, it's like doing a 2base all in trying to break someone on one base. You can never force your way up there through that funnel into his concave. I'd just attack the nice and open and hard to defend third like you normally do with a 2base all in because the defenders advantage is low there, the defenders advantage is huge at the backdoor, close to the main, short re-enforcements for Terran. I just don't see it happening.

On October 27 2012 05:00 iamcaustic wrote:

Hoo boy... I'm having difficulty finding a single positive quality on this map in its presented form.


The chokes are located in areas that make them practically worthless. They don't defend anything, they don't cover major attack paths, and with the map as gigantic as it is they aren't even practical as a general position to hold.


This map is larger than Whirlwind and Terminus (both 4-player maps on the slightly-too-large side), but is only a 2-player map. Why did you make it so huge?


Any decent player will leave a single, cheap unit along any potentially major attack path to spot for such sneak attacks, and will try to take the watchtowers for themselves anyway. I don't understand the purpose of the rocks.


If we're talking style, the only race that's going to ever be concerned about taking a third on this map would be Zerg.


Nope. Expect many 2-base all-ins to exploit the shorter/easier rush distance and superior positioning of this path. I'll be amazed if a single game on this map reaches 3-base vs. 3-base.

On October 27 2012 07:27 moskonia wrote:


The middle is very choky, before you open the rock there are only 4 squares wide paths in the middle, which is pretty small.

About the map size, I might make it smaller, I only made it this big since I normally do not have space for everything I want to do in a map, but I maybe went a bit too much this time.

The middle rocks make it so that in order to have full vision you need to control 3 spots, instead of only the 2 towers, it makes it so that in the lategame there are 3 major points you want to hold, while in the early game there are only 2.

About taking a 3rd only hard for Zerg, I think that is really not true, each race will have a more difficult time to hold a 3rd here, and for a reason. I made the map like this to try and prevent the standard greedy play, I want each race to try and get an army before expanding, instead of just blindly macroing up like most games nowadays.

About the backdoor, I think people do not like it cause they remember the old maps, where rush distance was incredibly short, but here it won't be too hard to defend, as a 2 width ramp it will be as hard to defend as your natural, also unless you take the middle expansion the opponent has to take a very large road from the main to the nat / 3rd and back, making the backdoor not so efficient as you might think. If you are talking about 2base vs 2base, well then the backdoor is near useless, since the natural is further then the main and buildings a wall (PvZ) / some bunkers (TvX) / transfering spines there (ZvX) is not that hard as long as you know the rocks are going to break - scouting.

Personally I think that you should try to give constructive criticism and trying to help the map maker when you comment, instead of just bashing the map.

On October 27 2012 15:40 iamcaustic wrote:
EDIT: Also want to clarify, I said third would be nigh impossible for anyone except Zerg. If you think the backdoor on your base the way it's designed won't be a problem, then by all means leave it and watch as my prophecy unfolds.

On October 27 2012 20:27 SiskosGoatee wrote:
Now now Muhammad...

I still don't think the natural backdoor provides too much of a power for 2base all ins. It takes him longer to re-arrange from one path than the defender if you pick your third right. Attacking up a 2 width ramp like that is definitely very hard to do with a 2base all in. I don't see a 2base sentry immortal have an easy time busting up against spines and roaches there in general.

Not to say that I personally like the map though, I share your concern with that it's waaaaaaaaay too open.

On October 28 2012 03:51 iamcaustic wrote:
It comes down to basic scouting to see where the defender has invested his defences, before moving forward to strike. If you think a Zerg can have enough defences to simultaneously hold those two very distanced chokes against a powerful sentry/immortal all-in (using your example), well, I'd be very interested in seeing how it's done. Even if a Zerg sets up spines at one choke and scouts well enough to see the Protoss going for the other, it still will take quite a bit of time to re-locate and burrow them to be useful and, given the distance between the chokes, I doubt there will be enough creep spread in time.

So, what? Make a bunch of spine crawlers at both chokes and turtle on 2 base? I'm sure Protoss won't mind 2 base vs. 2 base (I think I mentioned that games are very unlikely to get to 3 base vs 3 base on the map).

On October 28 2012 04:44 SiskosGoatee wrote:

It happens all the time, say on daybreak, there are two chokes, the main ramp with the rocks and the one at the third and those chokes are both wider and one of them doesn't give you high ground, this is even more advantageous because he has to travel so much more around than on daybreak and kill rocks as well. I don't see this being a problem. Going through the backdoor is foolish unless your opponent is completely caught of guard, doesn't guard his rocks and suddenly has a massive amount of protoss in his main and a forcefield up his ramp.

Not really, just get the far third and keep an eye out for stuff breaking your rocks and you're fine. You should always know where your opponents army is if he's doing a sentry/immortal anyway because you try to bait forcefields and stall with lings. Apart from that you can take the 'open third' which is easier for Z to hold against a forcefield-based all in probably and just stop him from getting up that ramp towards the backdoor honestly. I agree this map has many problems, but 2base all ins using the backdoor isn't one of them. It was also never a problem on jungle basin because he had to walk so much more around to attack it than you had to defend it. The real problem with Jungle Basin was the impossibility for Zerg to get a third and I'd not mind seeing the occasional map with a jungle-basin style natural return.