Old pictures - in no particular order or naming: I'm just saying for those who need to be careful about a lot of images, there are loads in the spoiler below. + Show Spoiler +
You need something blocking one of the routes into the natural. Starting it off with two openings makes it hard for protoss/terran to fast expo against zerg.
The 3rd and 4th are way too close. That's the biggest problem.
As you say, this is basically just Daybreak. Except you have a lot of proportion issues (open space, closeness -- chokes are somewhat okay). Your map differs from Daybreak how? In that it is worse. What does it do differently? It puts the rocks on the side paths, the towers are on the sides, and there's no center base. Why do you want it this way? Unless you redesign some major elements of the map, you'll have to directly compare it to Daybreak (which is a fine map to compare to generally) and come up with real reasons for why you want something else. Then you have to think about what effect this has in all the matchups at all points in the game, and compensate for anything you didn't foresee at first. I'm not saying these are insignificant changes; nor am I saying the above is why it's worse. It's worse for a lot of reasons, mostly use of space (bad proportions). What I'm talking about is thinking intentionally about what kind of map you are trying to make and a really helpful way to get this thought process started is compare it to other maps you know intimately (like ladder/tournament maps).
Also... just pick a name. You can change it later, the mods are pretty quick about especially with a PM. We are in double digits "no name WIP" threads.
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Not a bad effort but it lacks raison d'etre and refinement.
If you stick your army in that open field and turtle up (walling off the far ramp to the 4th), you defend all 4 bases from one position. That's really dangerous.
Hey! Thanks for all the replies! I was actually not sure if it was worth it posting on here first. Mega feedback :D
On August 19 2012 05:06 EatThePath wrote: The 3rd and 4th are way too close. That's the biggest problem.
As you say, this is basically just Daybreak. Except you have a lot of proportion issues (open space, closeness -- chokes are somewhat okay). Your map differs from Daybreak how? In that it is worse. What does it do differently? It puts the rocks on the side paths, the towers are on the sides, and there's no center base. Why do you want it this way? Unless you redesign some major elements of the map, you'll have to directly compare it to Daybreak (which is a fine map to compare to generally) and come up with real reasons for why you want something else. Then you have to think about what effect this has in all the matchups at all points in the game, and compensate for anything you didn't foresee at first. I'm not saying these are insignificant changes; nor am I saying the above is why it's worse. It's worse for a lot of reasons, mostly use of space (bad proportions). What I'm talking about is thinking intentionally about what kind of map you are trying to make and a really helpful way to get this thought process started is compare it to other maps you know intimately (like ladder/tournament maps).
Also... just pick a name. You can change it later, the mods are pretty quick about especially with a PM. We are in double digits "no name WIP" threads.
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Not a bad effort but it lacks raison d'etre and refinement.
Pfft I had to google "raison d'etre"! You're right though its basically a crummy version of daybreak atm. I just wanted to make a map with some of the similar features to daybreak - as its an awesome map. I'll deffo have to start thinking of how I can make some of the changes, but also why they are needed. Thanks! :D
So from what I can gather to apparent main issues are:
- too much openess ~ maybe add some form of high ground or move the 4th a bit more to the center.
- two entrances to the natural being bad ~ I assume rocks wont be such a terrible fix
- 3rd and 4th are too close together ~ will look at re-arranging both (probly move 5th about as well, though not sure)
- the mid choke needs changing ~ probably make it bigger I guess lol
- no reason for existence Q_Q ~ maybe learn french to think of an appropriate comeback
On August 19 2012 09:19 BreakfastBurrito wrote: You should call it... Nightfall.
I've tried to add some of the changes and it's starting to look better, I think anyway. Not sure if moving the 4th to where it currently is, is a good or bad thing. Also wondering if I should bring the 3rd a bit closer as well.
Anyway thanks for the help guys! IMO its really improved thanks to your replies, if possible any more would be highly appreciated! On a less map related note, who do you PM for a topic change? And is it possible to label spoilers? So that it doesn't just say "+ Spoiler +" but something like "+ Old Pictures+" or something.
On August 21 2012 07:08 Scurvy wrote: Looks much better with the high ground in the middle areas. Thats just my untrained, complete map-making noob thoughts
I must be an untrained, complete map-making noob too, because I agree
Fix the mineral lines at the 5ths, right now they are asymmetrical.
Also, I'm curious as to why you put rocks on the ramps at the 5ths. Personally I'd probably remove them since they don't seem necessary, but maybe you had a good reason for doing it.
For me it seems like the 4th is still kind of in a strange spot (idk if it's just from this angle but it seems too far out in the middle of the map and yet too much of a choke from the third or the front of your other bases and seems like your opponent would have you in a choke no matter which angle you attack from to protect the 4th). Other than that it looks good. Maybe put a ramp up to the high ground behind the 4th? I like the upper and lower attack paths (nice and open good placement for tanks and things of that nature) also as long as the other high grounds in the middle areas is big enough to put a tank on I dig it.
On August 21 2012 07:56 -NegativeZero- wrote: Fix the mineral lines at the 5ths, right now they are asymmetrical.
Also, I'm curious as to why you put rocks on the ramps at the 5ths. Personally I'd probably remove them since they don't seem necessary, but maybe you had a good reason for doing it.
The rocks were one of the first things I added when I first started messing around, they dont really belong anymore your'e right. And thanks for the mineral misplacement notice! =p
I've added newer pics. Made some tiny changes here and there. Mostly just smoothing out the edges of cliffs to make it look a bit more natural. Still not so sure what to do with the 4th but I think it will have to stay there for now. I also started messing with the textures and trying some doodads ~ man it's hard to decorate this texture set =o
I think I shall claim Nightfall! I just don't know who to PM to change the topic title.
On August 21 2012 07:56 -NegativeZero- wrote: Fix the mineral lines at the 5ths, right now they are asymmetrical.
Also, I'm curious as to why you put rocks on the ramps at the 5ths. Personally I'd probably remove them since they don't seem necessary, but maybe you had a good reason for doing it.
The rocks were one of the first things I added when I first started messing around, they dont really belong anymore your'e right. And thanks for the mineral misplacement notice! =p
I've added newer pics. Made some tiny changes here and there. Mostly just smoothing out the edges of cliffs to make it look a bit more natural. Still not so sure what to do with the 4th but I think it will have to stay there for now. I also started messing with the textures and trying some doodads ~ man it's hard to decorate this texture set =o
I think I shall claim Nightfall! I just don't know who to PM to change the topic title.
I think Aunvilgod makes some good suggestions but I might keep some of that high ground around the 4th and simply put a ramp on one of the two ends for strategic drop/air harass and defense. If you just push the base back over to the edge of the map you get something that is less unique incomparison daybreak. A ramp toward the third is better for surprise drop/nydus play earlier in the game and is more conducive to harass type units; a ramp toward the fifth is better for siege and cliff abuse and it would help to pull the army further out of position for a backstab at the natural.
EDIT: I forgot to add that you can ask Barrin to rename your map as I think he is still the mod for this forum (send him a PM). I think Plexa has done this before, too, since he has been known to frequent this forum.
Right now some tanks on the highground shut down the entire flank of the map and you can´t do anything about it. It needs to be out of range of that ramp.
On August 21 2012 07:56 -NegativeZero- wrote: Fix the mineral lines at the 5ths, right now they are asymmetrical.
Also, I'm curious as to why you put rocks on the ramps at the 5ths. Personally I'd probably remove them since they don't seem necessary, but maybe you had a good reason for doing it.
The rocks were one of the first things I added when I first started messing around, they dont really belong anymore your'e right. And thanks for the mineral misplacement notice! =p
I've added newer pics. Made some tiny changes here and there. Mostly just smoothing out the edges of cliffs to make it look a bit more natural. Still not so sure what to do with the 4th but I think it will have to stay there for now. I also started messing with the textures and trying some doodads ~ man it's hard to decorate this texture set =o
I think I shall claim Nightfall! I just don't know who to PM to change the topic title.
I think Aunvilgod makes some good suggestions but I might keep some of that high ground around the 4th and simply put a ramp on one of the two ends for strategic drop/air harass and defense. If you just push the base back over to the edge of the map you get something that is less unique incomparison daybreak. A ramp toward the third is better for surprise drop/nydus play earlier in the game and is more conducive to harass type units; a ramp toward the fifth is better for siege and cliff abuse and it would help to pull the army further out of position for a backstab at the natural.
Hmm I'm not even sure what I had in mind for that highground but I like the idea of a ramp. Not sure which side though! Maybe if I make the highground smaller it will be clearer.
@ Aunvilgod: Thanks for the mega pic dude! If I make that highground smaller - like the pic suggests - is it still playable? Also a bit confused with the moving of the 5th ramps - do you reckon only make them wider or make them wider and move them?
It seems like the picture is saying to both move the ramp back toward the watchtower and make it wider. This makes sense given the comment about the tanks on the highground above. Also, it makes the path that goes by the watchtower more of a direct route instead of going around that little niche (this may have the side effect of forcing a purposeful scout of the fifth instead of being able to catch a glimpse regardless while the army skirts by -- of course this is moot if the watchtower can see the fifth). If the niche goes away and you just shift the ramp back (as if you were shoving South America and Africa together in a demonstration of tectonic plates) and make it wider, then I think you have decisions regarding what to do with the highground behind the fourth, whether that is leave it, add a ramp, remove it and push the base back, or whatever.
Just me playing around a bit. I think you will need to cut the corner bases to 6m1hyg in order to make them no free bases. Thus you will need another base. Note that this is not necessarily better than the other suggestions.
Woah thanks for the pic =o. I hadnt really thought about "6m1hyg" bases as you call them. Will have a look! Tbh when I was playing some games vs AI I noticed that there might be need for another base. I was thinking oposite the nat ramp, but I have to admit I like your place better!
The only concern with making the middle bit more open, like some suggest, is that it becomes TO open. I'll have a look though.
Hey! I started decorating the outer parts a bit, trying to make it look like an old city of sorts got its assed kicked many moons ago. Its just... is there a way to get rid of this sudden blackness? I've not managed to achieve anything with fiddling with the map bounds. Q_Q
Right now some tanks on the highground shut down the entire flank of the map and you can´t do anything about it. It needs to be out of range of that ramp.
Agreed. What is with all the unreachable high ground anyways? Terran can just drop tanks on there and pretty much control the whole map. My suggestion to make it at least a bit more balanced: make the outer high grounds accessible as a ramp. That way the (fourth) won't be untakable by zerg, and may double as another counterattack path. Also make the center high grounds untraversable with some doodads or whatnot. That's pretty much all I can think of at the moment.
The low ground behind the sight blockers in the main is also too strong imo. T cound leapfrog tanks all the way to your mineral line. I believe it's been a problem on some blizz maps before. I know Antiga has a similar feature but it's nowhere as strong. It's much further from the mineral line, and the low ground is in the open and you can only access it from the center of the map. Here you have three levels to leapfrog - just too imba imo.
Also, feel free to paint up the terrain a little bit, as right now the map looks to one-toned and plain. Toss some doodads around the place too. And drop some aestherics between the actual "island" part of the map and the outlying lowground.
Dunno, that's just what I thought of when I took a look at it, hopefully you'll be able to draw out something helpful from what I said. GL
Right now some tanks on the highground shut down the entire flank of the map and you can´t do anything about it. It needs to be out of range of that ramp.
Agreed. What is with all the unreachable high ground anyways? Terran can just drop tanks on there and pretty much control the whole map. My suggestion to make it at least a bit more balanced: make the outer high grounds accessible as a ramp. That way the (fourth) won't be untakable by zerg, and may double as another counterattack path. Also make the center high grounds untraversable with some doodads or whatnot. That's pretty much all I can think of at the moment.
The low ground behind the sight blockers in the main is also too strong imo. T cound leapfrog tanks all the way to your mineral line. I believe it's been a problem on some blizz maps before. I know Antiga has a similar feature but it's nowhere as strong. It's much further from the mineral line, and the low ground is in the open and you can only access it from the center of the map. Here you have three levels to leapfrog - just too imba imo.
Also, feel free to paint up the terrain a little bit, as right now the map looks to one-toned and plain. Toss some doodads around the place too. And drop some aestherics between the actual "island" part of the map and the outlying lowground.
Dunno, that's just what I thought of when I took a look at it, hopefully you'll be able to draw out something helpful from what I said. GL
Hey, thanks for the feedback! After speaking with a couple of people about it I've kind of gone for the whole "none playable high grounds". Still busy adding doodads but none of the high grounds are accessible atm. Don't know about the back door bit It was honestly a suggestion from a friend and it seems to link in nicely, haven't really had a chance to see just how evil it might be. It was originally just for a bit of extra harassment, but your siege tank point is true :c
- have updated OP with new pics! :D Started decorating the outer parts and what not. I put buildings inside buildings, hopefully it doesnt look as weird as it sounds lol
Now I just need to figure out who to PM to change the topic name for me Q_Q
That backdoor is no problem. If a terran flys tanks around over there he is super exposed.
However I think the map is still too choked in the center. Also, you should make the ramp we already discussed face the center of the map, not the edge. :D
Have done a couple of doodad changes + fiddled with the lighting a bit. Also messed around with the editor to see how cameras work - and its surprisingly simple! :O
Did a quick video earlier showing the main features of the map:
Its easy enough to do that every time a major update happens I can just do a new vid, kind of handy lol. Rather tempted to do this with some of my older maps as well; the vid imo shows way more than ss's ever could... well... apart from the overview.
On a side note, how does publishing work with this new arcade system? I've not spent much time looking into it but first impressions are a bit.. o_O
Ha, nice vid! Map looks best it has so far. This is easily better than every ladder map that came out with the game. (I know that says more about how bad they were but still.) What I mean is, this accomplishes everything that Blizzard maps usually try to, without all the crap design fallout they usually have.
I think the drop ridge above the 4th is too strong for terran. Looking at it, it's like, yeah okay the 4th base can be harassed. But the comparative effect of one medivac of stim marines that can shoot the mineral line vs a similar mineral/gas investment from any other race is really disproportional. Is that fair? Maybe, but it will be a big burden that doesn't really add anything to the map.
If it was a low ground drop space, it'd be fine. But, apart from that it'd be easy to fix by just making a ramp on one side so zerglings and zealots can go handle drops. It's still a better drop spot than most maps have even when you do that, because you can hit the minerals.
Hey thanks! The vid is a bit screwy atm I think. I let youtube auto fix it or something and its made it all smooth/weird looking. It still does the job though so I probably shouldn't complain lol
As for the "drop ridge" - I'm kind of leaning towards none of the "ridges" being dropable atm. Adding more ramps I think is going to take a lot away from it, so might just doo-dad it a bit more to make it clear you cant drop there. Not sure about it yet, at all...
- I updated the OP to make it look a bit nicer! Thanks to barrin for updating topic title <3
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but I like the idea of a ramp. Not sure which side though! Maybe if I make the highground smaller it will be clearer.![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/gMipZ.jpg)
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