Been experimenting with this main/nat layout and this is the result. Trying out a few new ideas/techniques here, partially inspired by Ohana. Critique welcome.
Looks like a really interesting map to play on. Can't really comment on balance though. I like the natural and 3rd along with the 2 ramps into the main. Really cool idea.
Definitely an interesting idea, I think it would probably work in most situations... especially since you can just wall off the ramp not going to the natural after fast expanding if you feel like you need to.
I personally think the LOS blockers in the middle might be a little over the top, fights would get pretty weird. Although that could be good
Aesthetics are definitely cool. The color scheme and lighting has a "night elf" feel to it.
Middle is pretty interesting. I feel like LOS blockers are super underused in maps right now. Or at least, they aren't used in interesting ways when they are used.
I think a problem with the mid is that someone just can't engage there at all if the other person has the watchtower because the disadvantage from not having LOS of their army (while the other player is unaffected by the LOS blockers) will be huge. Basically I think the middle would be 20x more interesting if there wasn't a watchtower there, because then -both- players would have to use the LOS blockers to their advantage.
The main/nat/third is obviously quite unique, it's hard to say without testing but I actually think it works. FFE'ing is slightly more difficult to do than in some maps but not impossible at all.
I think the rocks blocking the natural are interesting. But they look like they will be too easily defend-able from the high ground - unless you have Banshee/Muta/Voids, in which case walls don't matter much. Although, as you take your third, you will probably want the rocks to be broken so you can move quickly between the third and nat to defend.
Well done. I do kind of agree with what Fatam said about the watchtower in the middle. I wish there was a better place to put them on the edges of the map. Then it'd turn into take the outside edges of the map, which are longer and provide watchtowers, or go through the center which is dangerous and covered with lots of LoSB.
I'm wondering how it'd work if you made high ground in the middle like this: + Show Spoiler +
Definitely one of the better more unique 2p maps that has been posted recently. Keep up the great work!
Aesthetics. I always wanted to create a map looking like that, but i never achieved it. Great job! Im curious what it would look like if you add a little bit more blue textures instead of only green in the centre, maybe it would be even more great.
Natural layout is unique, but fine - from my point of view. First 3 bases are pretty easy to defend too, but thats kind of standard nowadays. I really like the transition from 3base to 4base, it reminds me of Cloud Kingdom. The middle is kind of unique, have to see how it plays out. Could be a brilliant feature - with the LOS-blockers the Xel Naga Tower gets even more important.
I hope it gets picked up by some tourneys or something. Would love to see it get played.
Is that a full-gas inbase natural? I'm not sure how much I like that. It wasn't the only reason Jungle Basin was a bad map, but it certainly didn't help. If the Jungle Basin rocks were never knocked down fast enough to stop fast expansions, then these rocks certainly never will. Middle of the map is hard to spread creep through, but I'm guessing you knew this already. Engagements there will probably favor Terran due to Medivacs. Siege Tank wars in that area should be wicked fun, though. Nothing else to comment on. The inbase nat is clearly the biggest thing about this map. However, I think that having that available would shake things up enough that it would end up being beneficial. Not every game needs to be on Daybreak, after all...
I feel this map allows protoss to more safely open gateway expand. You can protect the main ramp that way and hopefully react fast enough to zerg breaking down rocks with lings/roaches.
Zerg on the other hand, would probably take the third as their natural followed by the natural (not that there is much time difference there usually. This allows them to hide if they went 2 base or three base, meanwhile zerg can scout the natural easily with an overlord. Furthermore, the initial 4 lings can easily cover all ground paths. If the toss does an ~8 minute timing, you only have one area to defend. Muta's are also an option with the air around the natural/third.
ZvZ, can you wall off the big ramp to the natural with evos and a spine crawler or two? If so, such that you only have one real entrance I can see this making more zvz's going to a later game. The issue with opening roach is the ling player goes a fast third and tries to deny yours / ling runbys if you move roaches to defend it. But that would be solved here with a walloff be-tween the big ramp and the small ramp.
Very pretty map - I'm actually busy on something that looks startlingly similar - it's very uncanny . I like the experimentation, but it seems with the treacherous lowground middle might make this a rather splitty map? Perhaps not - it's a rather small map with a base layout that encourages long term play, I think we could see great if somewhat crazy games on this. Nice work.
Thank you for all the comments. I have made a couple of tiny tweaks and finally sorted out the publishing issues so it is up on in the arcade section of EU! Search for Uncanny.
If you play on it I would love the replays. Specific the 3rd/4th for zerg need testing, and feedback on how people feel about the overall size and rush distances would be really useful.
An Idea I have been playing with in my head is having the XNT decay something like 5/6 minutes in to the game. Xel'Naga Fortress was a map that had this feature and I think it might work well here.
I think the middle half-base is too vulnerable. Waht if a bigger part of the closest LOSB line was solid wall or gap instead?
If this map is still valid in HotS, you could have collapsable rocks clsoe tot he tower, so that players may choose to make it unavailable (at least I hope this might work - perhaps two collapsable rocks are needed for it?)
On August 20 2012 22:03 Meltage wrote: I love the setting.
I think the middle half-base is too vulnerable. Waht if a bigger part of the closest LOSB line was solid wall or gap instead?
If this map is still valid in HotS, you could have collapsable rocks clsoe tot he tower, so that players may choose to make it unavailable (at least I hope this might work - perhaps two collapsable rocks are needed for it?)
Cheers Meltage. I have some ideas for improving the half base area. The XNT is certainly a conundrum, will need testing to see if it provides too much of a positional advantage currently.
I'm liking this map a lot. Beautiful implementation of the new natural. I like all of the LOS blockers on the side that you have them on, so the defender can still get out to see.
I was trying LOS blockers on the other side to prevent the placement of a pylon near enough, which seemed cruder than your solution.
The aesthetics are also gorgeous and I like the middle LOS blockers, though I agree that the half base is so vulnerable as to not really be worth it.
There is also a hint of circle syndrome but still very nice.
I've got a couple balance concerns/gameplay concerns that I'll list here, but I must preface by saying this is a very good looking map and looks well made.
So my first point is a minor one, and it is that the main looks very small. Lategame TvZ and TvP can sometimes get up to 15+ barracks or so. It's important to have somewhere to build them, and usually the main the is the most comfortable and logical spot. On this map, there is a little bit of space near the third and a tiny bit of room in the inbase natural, but not quite enough total. I think the main needs to be enlarged- you could almost double the size now and it would be fine. For my suggestion how to do this, I have to talk about my other concerns.
My second point of concern is the the fourth, fifth, and sixth (if needed) bases are nearly impossible for zerg to take in ZvP, and to a lesser extent in ZvT. This is because the distances between the players are very short- similar to Ohana. These days, Zerg can almost never take a fourth or fifth expansion against P/T on Ohana because the opponent's pushes come so quickly that there is no time to react or get into position. Ohana has some previous stats that help it be balanced on TLPD, but I believe it is going to become worse and worse for balance. Also the gameplay strongly discourages comebacks and encourages being highly aggressive.
The white lines show pushes coming from Protoss, but it could be Terran also. The distances are all very short and don't give Zerg much time to react, build spines, get in position, counter attack, etc. On top of that, the push paths are very very small and choked which will make any PvZ just that much stronger until Zerg has brood lords.
Daybreak has a similar lategame style, where the expansions are along the left and right sides of the map in a linear fashion. However there is a major difference between the maps- Daybreak is MUCH larger cross map, because the map is longer horizontally than vertically. I believe that Uncanny Valley is going to need to be stretched in order to make the gameplay work. Widening the map by simply enlarging the middle would work wonders imo. Even 12-16 hexes would help the problems, but you could probably go up to 24 hexes increase if you want. Essentially you could leave the main/nat where they are and move the rest of the map outwards, which will allow you to increase the main size.
Note: The push distances become even shorter as the game progresses (5th to natural is short and the middle bases are seconds from the opponent).
[edit]
My final concern with the map is that these areas are too easy to hide units below, because the double cliffs with overshadow units on the lowground if they are positioned correctly. The same problem occurs with the middle expos on Shakuras, except minerals block most of the spots that units can be hidden. A simple solution is to raise the lowground harassment areas to middleground.
I've got a couple balance concerns/gameplay concerns that I'll list here, but I must preface by saying this is a very good looking map and looks well made.
So my first point is a minor one, and it is that the main looks very small. Lategame TvZ and TvP can sometimes get up to 15+ barracks or so. It's important to have somewhere to build them, and usually the main the is the most comfortable and logical spot. On this map, there is a little bit of space near the third and a tiny bit of room in the inbase natural, but not quite enough total. I think the main needs to be enlarged- you could almost double the size now and it would be fine. For my suggestion how to do this, I have to talk about my other concerns.
My second point of concern is the the fourth, fifth, and sixth (if needed) bases are nearly impossible for zerg to take in ZvP, and to a lesser extent in ZvT. This is because the distances between the players are very short- similar to Ohana. These days, Zerg can almost never take a fourth or fifth expansion against P/T on Ohana because the opponent's pushes come so quickly that there is no time to react or get into position. Ohana has some previous stats that help it be balanced on TLPD, but I believe it is going to become worse and worse for balance. Also the gameplay strongly discourages comebacks and encourages being highly aggressive.
The white lines show pushes coming from Protoss, but it could be Terran also. The distances are all very short and don't give Zerg much time to react, build spines, get in position, counter attack, etc. On top of that, the push paths are very very small and choked which will make any PvZ just that much stronger until Zerg has brood lords.
Daybreak has a similar lategame style, where the expansions are along the left and right sides of the map in a linear fashion. However there is a major difference between the maps- Daybreak is MUCH larger cross map, because the map is longer horizontally than vertically. I believe that Uncanny Valley is going to need to be stretched in order to make the gameplay work. Widening the map by simply enlarging the middle would work wonders imo. Even 12-16 hexes would help the problems, but you could probably go up to 24 hexes increase if you want. Essentially you could leave the main/nat where they are and move the rest of the map outwards, which will allow you to increase the main size.
Note: The push distances become even shorter as the game progresses (5th to natural is short and the middle bases are seconds from the opponent).
[edit]
My final concern with the map is that these areas are too easy to hide units below, because the double cliffs with overshadow units on the lowground if they are positioned correctly. The same problem occurs with the middle expos on Shakuras, except minerals block most of the spots that units can be hidden. A simple solution is to raise the lowground harassment areas to middleground.
Thanks for the feedback monitor, once again proving that you are the boss when it comes to understanding maps. If I'm honest with myself, I kind of knew that it wasn't wide enough but having already widened it once, and knowing what a pain it would be fixing all the aesthetics, I've been reluctant. The main size issue is also something I was aware of, having already made it as large as I could within the bounds I was working with. My plan for the next update is to move the nat gas nearest to the main to the other side so that there is a larger area there to expand the main. This will also mean that zergs get a much easier overlord scout on the nat gasses, hopefully this will be counteracted slightly by the fact that the main gasses are much harder to scout, any thoughts on this? The other change I was considering is moving the rocks from the ramp they are currently on to the ramp between the main/nat/3rd but I'm much more hesitant on that one and I don't want it to be too passive plus players seem to be able to hold the 3-wide ramp on entombed just fine.
The point about hiding units behind the double cliff is not something that I had thought of. Luckily it's an easy fix
I've got a couple balance concerns/gameplay concerns that I'll list here, but I must preface by saying this is a very good looking map and looks well made.
So my first point is a minor one, and it is that the main looks very small. Lategame TvZ and TvP can sometimes get up to 15+ barracks or so. It's important to have somewhere to build them, and usually the main the is the most comfortable and logical spot. On this map, there is a little bit of space near the third and a tiny bit of room in the inbase natural, but not quite enough total. I think the main needs to be enlarged- you could almost double the size now and it would be fine. For my suggestion how to do this, I have to talk about my other concerns.
My second point of concern is the the fourth, fifth, and sixth (if needed) bases are nearly impossible for zerg to take in ZvP, and to a lesser extent in ZvT. This is because the distances between the players are very short- similar to Ohana. These days, Zerg can almost never take a fourth or fifth expansion against P/T on Ohana because the opponent's pushes come so quickly that there is no time to react or get into position. Ohana has some previous stats that help it be balanced on TLPD, but I believe it is going to become worse and worse for balance. Also the gameplay strongly discourages comebacks and encourages being highly aggressive.
The white lines show pushes coming from Protoss, but it could be Terran also. The distances are all very short and don't give Zerg much time to react, build spines, get in position, counter attack, etc. On top of that, the push paths are very very small and choked which will make any PvZ just that much stronger until Zerg has brood lords.
Daybreak has a similar lategame style, where the expansions are along the left and right sides of the map in a linear fashion. However there is a major difference between the maps- Daybreak is MUCH larger cross map, because the map is longer horizontally than vertically. I believe that Uncanny Valley is going to need to be stretched in order to make the gameplay work. Widening the map by simply enlarging the middle would work wonders imo. Even 12-16 hexes would help the problems, but you could probably go up to 24 hexes increase if you want. Essentially you could leave the main/nat where they are and move the rest of the map outwards, which will allow you to increase the main size.
Note: The push distances become even shorter as the game progresses (5th to natural is short and the middle bases are seconds from the opponent).
[edit]
My final concern with the map is that these areas are too easy to hide units below, because the double cliffs with overshadow units on the lowground if they are positioned correctly. The same problem occurs with the middle expos on Shakuras, except minerals block most of the spots that units can be hidden. A simple solution is to raise the lowground harassment areas to middleground.
Thanks for the feedback monitor, once again proving that you are the boss when it comes to understanding maps. If I'm honest with myself, I kind of knew that it wasn't wide enough but having already widened it once, and knowing what a pain it would be fixing all the aesthetics, I've been reluctant. The main size issue is also something I was aware of, having already made it as large as I could within the bounds I was working with. My plan for the next update is to move the nat gas nearest to the main to the other side so that there is a larger area there to expand the main. This will also mean that zergs get a much easier overlord scout on the nat gasses, hopefully this will be counteracted slightly by the fact that the main gasses are much harder to scout, any thoughts on this? The other change I was considering is moving the rocks from the ramp they are currently on to the ramp between the main/nat/3rd but I'm much more hesitant on that one and I don't want it to be too passive plus players seem to be able to hold the 3-wide ramp on entombed just fine.
The point about hiding units behind the double cliff is not something that I had thought of. Luckily it's an easy fix
Heh, thanks. I know its a massive pain, and ultimately it is your map so any changes are your decision of course. I often won't change my maps because its too much of a nuisance once I've finished the aesthetics. The gas move sounds good but I doubt it will fix the small size completely. I always like encouraging scouting, and I don't mind if its easy. I kind of prefer easy to scout gasses in both the main and natural. Scouting the gases is especially important in ZvP and ZvT, but Zerg can usually sack an ovie to scout the main. I wouldn't be too concerned about it, its kind of a minor thing.
Updated! Changed a bunch of things. Will do some aesthetics shots tomorrow. Somehow I've been mapping with my texture settings set to low this whole time, I was wondering why my maps looked so different in game to in the editor. Now that's fixed expect my screenshots to be much better.
It's published to the melee section on EU if anyone fancies playing on it.
Yay, you got rid of the unnecesary LOS blockers ^_^ The map is on the small side, and not all the expos will be taken, but small map + back expo is interesting.
On September 11 2012 15:02 Semmo wrote: Yay, you got rid of the unnecesary LOS blockers ^_^ The map is on the small side, and not all the expos will be taken, but small map + back expo is interesting.
Yeah you've touched on the concept there. I figured SC2 is mostly a 2 base game now, with the exception of PvP. So, if players are going to get up to 2 bases anyway, why not give them the second base for free? Well in the past this has lead to turtley, deathbally games, so this map is my attempt at countering that. The nat is harassable but difficult to attack head-on. This means you have some interesting decisions on when to break down your own rocks once you have your 3rd base. Breaking down the rocks makes for easier harass defence as you can park your army at the top of the ramp and move to the 3rd/nat/main easily but makes your nat more vulnerable. I imagine most players will break down the rocks once the 3rd is established but may choose to keep them if they feel certain timing attacks are coming. The map emphasises control of the middle which should also help break up turtley games, especially as it is a small map so seeing your opponent coming is very important. The middle is quite open though so you have to be wary of flanks and being caught out of position. The outer LoS blockers denote the radius of the XNT meaning you can't see in but they can't see out, which should encourage scouting. The centre bases also help control of the middle but at the sacrifice of a slightly lower economy (6m1hg) and less obvious expansions. The 4ths being double high ground and roughly the same distance from the opposition as the 3rd should make them easier to defend but taking them does change the area you have to defend considerably. With the 4th (and subsequent 5th) and the nat being open to harass I can see this being a good tactic whilst pushing the 3rd. As you rightly said, I doubt all of the bases will be taken in 1 game, the forward bases would be extremely difficult to hold whilst the opposition has their 4th/5th but I feel every bases has a use and is important in different situations/matchups.
My main worry with the map in it's current guise is the 3rd. I'm unsure exactly how this will play out and whether the choke or the main 3x ramp need tweaks. Would love to get some high level games on it as there is only so much I can learn from getting rolled by ArcticRaven's mech build every game
Hey I played a couple PvZ's, they were way fun. I will add some comments and some links to the replays later. For now:
One of the geysers is unbuildable, the left one at the 4 oclock base. Double check there's no doodad or something?
Also you can blink over the rocks into the natural, despite the LosB. Not sure if this is intended behavior. If you want to prevent blink-ins you'd need to put the LosB inside the rocks. Can't decide if I like the ability to blink in or not. It's cool so I guess it should stay, but it allows an extra aggressive option in PvP for blink all-ins to be so much stronger.
On September 18 2012 07:36 EatThePath wrote: Hey I played a couple PvZ's, they were way fun. I will add some comments and some links to the replays later. For now:
One of the geysers is unbuildable, the left one at the 4 oclock base. Double check there's no doodad or something?
Also you can blink over the rocks into the natural, despite the LosB. Not sure if this is intended behavior. If you want to prevent blink-ins you'd need to put the LosB inside the rocks. Can't decide if I like the ability to blink in or not. It's cool so I guess it should stay, but it allows an extra aggressive option in PvP for blink all-ins to be so much stronger.
On September 18 2012 20:13 eTcetRa wrote: Map looks stunning, good work!
Cheers man. I played on Orbit Brutus the other day, holy shit it is even better looking in-game! Seriously nice map.
In regards to the blinking over the rocks issue, what are people's thoughts on this? Baring in mind that if they had an observer they would be able to blink there anyway.
I think I will have to change it as it intuitively feels like you shouldn't be able to do this. I will do some testing in this area regardless.
I agree intuitively it feels like you shouldn't be able to. And I'm surprised that this prevents warp in if it doesn't prevent blink, as both of those require vision of the area you're targeting, no?
On September 19 2012 02:15 RFDaemoniac wrote: I agree intuitively it feels like you shouldn't be able to. And I'm surprised that this prevents warp in if it doesn't prevent blink, as both of those require vision of the area you're targeting, no?
I'd imagine if the area that you can see is small enough you would be able to blink in but not have enough room to warp. Stalkers can probably blink to even the smallest speck of space (just as you can or could drop units into small areas,) and then they are further into the losb.
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Great job! Im curious what it would look like if you add a little bit more blue textures instead of only green in the centre, maybe it would be even more great.
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