0,8 - Fixed some pathing issues were 3 small units could be dropped upon the ovie-scout-pods in natural and third. - Added more doodads (rocks, some cactus) to clearly indicate what small areas are pathable and not. The only intended drop zones (small pathable areas) are those shown in detail images (see above) where you can drop tanks and similar. - There were also small pockets were small units could be dropped between the south main and the map borders. They are no longer pathable (this is not an issue in the official GSTL version). 0,7 - Extended playble size from 158x128 to 158x124, so there's is SLIGHTLY more airspace behind main nat and CW third. - Publiced for HotS.
Published on EU (WoL, version 0,7) and HoTS Beta (version 0,8) as GSL TPW Silver Sands On NA (WoL) as TPW Silver Sands (version 0,6)
Well this is pretty sweet. I like the texturing and the position of the watchtowers with the LOS blockers on the outskirts of their vision. Lots of nifty little places to drop too. I noticed that the LOS blockers at the 3rd aren't in the analyzer pics. Wouldn't those combined with the outward facing third mineral line make the DRG "dragon breath" style roach/muta very strong against P? Just trying to find something to complain about here
Pretty. Could you post close-ups and your fog-settings?
I really don´t think many players would go muta on this map. There is litterally no air-space behind the main judging from the analyzer. Mutas are kind of out of fashion anyway.
I love your aesthetics. I think pretty much every map you make looks amazing. Most of the map looks solid except I don't like the mineral placements on the two corner lowground bases and I would like if the forward third bases minerals were tucked in a little more. I know you want some space to maneuver units around behind it but I think there is already plenty.
Have you thought of just having 1 watchtower in the direct middle instead of having the 2 where they are now? Only reason I dislike is now is because if any early game 1 or 2 base pressure is going to happen it's coming straight through the middle which isn't covered by watchtowers. Just a thought.
Given the chokiness of all the routes at the equator, I don't think you need that doodad clump outside the natural next to the LosB. Also, you might want to scoot the towers one square closer to the middle. Not for coverage reasons, but because you can activate them from the ramp (I think). Not sure if this is intended or if it matters to you, but seems to go against the spirit of the placement.
I'm not sure, but isn't the fourth (12 and 6) base really easy to defend as T ? And very hard to defend as Z in ZvP if your opponent goes for a sentry drop ?
I don't really like the central low grounds. They aren't on important pathways and don't have anything really useful in them besides a watchtower that doesn't really see to much. Have you considered kicking them up to high grounds? Because I think that would make them much more used and fun.
This map I kinda neat, and I do like the two third options given here. However, I think you might have forgotten about the age only mapmkaing plague known as circle syndrome. I think removing the high ground bases at 2:30 and 5:30 would solve this problem.
Though, I still desire more interesting positioning conflicts as I mentioned on the Crystarium thread, but I suppose this is fine as you do have to move your army around a little bit. Though, adding an additional entrance into the third would certainly make it much, much better. Even if it's just blocked by rocks. Though, not sure if this would fit your intentions with the third design, so I could see why you would opt not to do this. Otherwise, this is a solid map that I might find myself playing at some point in the future. Well done!
On May 10 2012 05:21 Timetwister22 wrote: This map I kinda neat, and I do like the two third options given here. However, I think you might have forgotten about the age only mapmkaing plague known as circle syndrome. I think removing the high ground bases at 2:30 and 5:30 would solve this problem.
I don't think there's any problem. Circle Syndrome isn't necessarily a problem in and of itself, and it depends on the context. For example, if Ohana had CS, it would be terrible, since Ohana only has 4 expansions on each side, and the 2 players would almost always have bases near each other. However, most rotational 4p maps have nearly complete CS, but are however fine, because there are so many bases. If the conflict associated with CS happens on one of those maps, it's usually more exciting, because the battles are being held over 2 late-game bases. If there are 5 or more expansions per side, it's more likely this will also occur on a 2p map.
The original conversations regarding Circle Syndrome prefaced it by saying that's it not good or bad on its own, I figure it appropriate to dispel any misconceptions that it is.
Nifty layout though, I'm just sorta bored by the aesthetic. I think, to run with the name "Silver Sands", some more of Valhalla Sand/Cracked Dirt might help to differentiate it from, say, Arid Plateau. Think about it. Right now, it's sorta the same, sans the grass.
And actually, now that I think of it, maybe some monlyth dunes would be neat. Mixing the blue and grey sands should really strike an observer as silver, which should be cool.
And of course, if you think I'm spewing nonsense and don't want to change your textures at all, that's fine too.
On May 10 2012 05:21 Timetwister22 wrote: This map I kinda neat, and I do like the two third options given here. However, I think you might have forgotten about the age only mapmkaing plague known as circle syndrome. I think removing the high ground bases at 2:30 and 5:30 would solve this problem.
Though, I still desire more interesting positioning conflicts as I mentioned on the Crystarium thread, but I suppose this is fine as you do have to move your army around a little bit. Though, adding an additional entrance into the third would certainly make it much, much better. Even if it's just blocked by rocks. Though, not sure if this would fit your intentions with the third design, so I could see why you would opt not to do this. Otherwise, this is a solid map that I might find myself playing at some point in the future. Well done!
It's not that I didn't consider giving the CW third a backdoor - I wanted to avoid promoting horizontal split, to avoid CS!
Intended worst case by design (vertical split): + Show Spoiler +
But on the other hand, even if you DO expand horizontal it's not likely one player would have the CCW third still, when the other player gets the last horizontal base?
Also, I think the CW third gives the map some characteristics the way it is. BTW, thanks, glad you like it!
On May 10 2012 02:42 EatThePath wrote: Also, you might want to scoot the towers one square closer to the middle. Not for coverage reasons, but because you can activate them from the ramp (I think). Not sure if this is intended or if it matters to you, but seems to go against the spirit of the placement.
Well observed. I tested and you were right. I'll move the tower some from the ramp, beacuse as you guess it wasnt intentional.
On May 10 2012 01:36 Aunvilgod wrote: Pretty. Could you post close-ups and your fog-settings?
I really don´t think many players would go muta on this map. There is litterally no air-space behind the main judging from the analyzer. Mutas are kind of out of fashion anyway.
I will post close-ups later. The airspace is a concern for me too, regarding the main. I think the nat and both thrids are nicely vulnerable to air. Mutas, for instance, could ping-pong between nat and CW third. Above the CW third there is some airspace. Adding more would be an easy fix if air harass really would prove too weak.
On May 10 2012 02:21 SidianTheBard wrote: I love your aesthetics. I think pretty much every map you make looks amazing. Most of the map looks solid except I don't like the mineral placements on the two corner lowground bases and I would like if the forward third bases minerals were tucked in a little more. I know you want some space to maneuver units around behind it but I think there is already plenty.
Have you thought of just having 1 watchtower in the direct middle instead of having the 2 where they are now? Only reason I dislike is now is because if any early game 1 or 2 base pressure is going to happen it's coming straight through the middle which isn't covered by watchtowers. Just a thought.
Thanks man!
Yes, I might relayout the 2 and 8 oclock around the mineral lines, and the CCW third is supposed to have much space for units, or I fear it would be both too vulnerable to air, given it's position and layout. Drops might be stronger, though. It's an easy fix if I'm wrong.
The middle blind to watchtowers is intentional. It forces players to actually scout the middle with units and use the watchtowers for scouting flanks / pushing high ground. Also, they still play a role later in the game this way.
On May 10 2012 04:41 RumbleBadger wrote: I don't really like the central low grounds. They aren't on important pathways and don't have anything really useful in them besides a watchtower that doesn't really see to much. Have you considered kicking them up to high grounds? Because I think that would make them much more used and fun.
I simply disagree. The towers would be too strong, the area too open and bland and flat. You use the low ground for the towers but also your armies or harassing units go there when flanking the CCW third, or when avoiding the shortest, most narrow middle path. It's also quite trafficed by air (and thus anti-air) for harrass on CCW third or bold, fast drops in main.
I think the map would be much cooler if the center was highground, as RumbleBadger suggested.
The towers wouldn't really be too strong, its not like there's much benefit from holding them in that location. It just gives vision which you'll probably have anyway. A contain isn't a good strategy there. If somehow it is too powerful (it won't be, I garuntee it- there is no imbalance it creates), you could just remove them. Definitely not a reason not to make it highground.
Highground would just make things a lot more dynamic around the expansions. They're all so spread out and have highground advantage that its kinda boring like this imo. A highground center would still allow the expansions to be taken, but it would introduce contain strategies, harassment, and easier ways to attack expos. Please do it, it'll make the map so much better BTW check out some of the replays of Afterglow in the Korean Weekly and see how some of the pros like Taeja use it. Its absolutely sick and makes gameplay a ton more interesting
My least favorite part of the map are the corner expos in top right and bottom left. They feel too packed in to me. You can take both by just controlling one corner of the map. There's lots of potential for this area though. To kill two birds with one stone, I'd do this http://i.imgur.com/kCMcs.jpg. You essentially fix the CS problems and reduce turtling/boring gameplay in the corner.
[edit] Super glad to see a new TPW map I like this one a lot!
I totally misread Rumble's suggestion on high grounds and thought he meant middle ground. It makes a lot more sense now. I ruled out high ground pods quite early, thinking it might be too powerful, but testing it now it seems fine, and probably even better.
I do think the highgrounds make a better map. Keep working. ;D
This is what I would do:
If you make it easier to take the clockwise 3rd (little quick path in black), there will be more tension in the decision. Right now the 3rd against the main is a lot safer. No big deal either way, I just like choices. ^^
If you make it easier, maybe also the base should have a slightly increased vulnerability -- narrow path drawn in white. This would also increase mobility, and allow a way to dodge the tower vision to get around in a clockwise path around the outside.
Highground in orange -- strictly more interesting than doodads. However, I deleted void space (increasing the ground connection to the natural) to make space for it. I would just say trash the doodad clump, the map could use the open space imo, which is somewhat out of style for no reason these days.
I'm glad this map is evolving. It seems to be getting up to the awesome level.
With the new tower placement, there is space for sneaking by the tower vision + Show Spoiler +
.
The reason the path to the CW third is to increase its cost/risk because its safer than the CCW third, and it has no backdoor because I don't want to promote horizontal expanding past the CW base, because of the CS case it would create. At least that's my reasoning atm. But when wiser men speak, I have been known to change my mind ^^
Open space and doodad clump .. hmm, still thinking.
On May 12 2012 16:23 Meltage wrote: With the new tower placement, there is space for sneaking by the tower vision + Show Spoiler +
.
The reason the path to the CW third is to increase its cost/risk because its safer than the CCW third, and it has no backdoor because I don't want to promote horizontal expanding past the CW base, because of the CS case it would create. At least that's my reasoning atm. But when wiser men speak, I have been known to change my mind ^^
Open space and doodad clump .. hmm, still thinking.
Ah okay should have checked analyzer first. ><
Yes I agree with your reasoning. imo the circularity wouldn't be so bad here; perfectly valid choice to avoid it though. Just my thoughts as usual. =)
This is one of the best maps ever made (for SC2), at this point. I'd like to see it on ladder/in tournaments at it's current point.
I have a few suggestions, though, all to further balance the expansion desirability between CCW and CW.
Yellow: Reapers and Colo should be able to move up and down here, and tank dropping there would most likely have no effect on the map.
Red: These LOS blockers currently punish players for rallying further towards center when on 2 bases / taking a third.
Orange: Like the LOS blockers @ 3 and 9 o'clock, would make players walk a bit further for vision, as well as making the low ground bases harder to hold in a horizontal split.
Teal: LOS blockers here on highground rewards players for army movement further onto the map, and promotes vertical split. In base ones are just simple hiding spots.
Green: Provides Terran more strategic options into 4 vs. 4 base scenarios.
Fuchsia: 3 of my suggestions would make these bases (TR and BL) harder to control in a horizontal split. This is to counterbalance that.
Imo you should make the highground as big as possible. It feels pretty small and puny right now. I'd like if it took up more area and was more important to the map itself, because atm its not that crucial for map control, engagements, etc.. Just make it as big as possible in places by making highground instead of the lvl 0 wasted space. Of course watch out for siege tank range on the third.
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