On May 02 2012 05:24 DYEAlabaster wrote: Again, yeah, no. Still wondering who the judges are.
Judge lineup for April: Barrin - Author of ‘Breadth of Gameplay in SC2’ Superouman - ESV Mapmaker, creator of Cloud kingdom and Sanshorn Mist lefix - Founder of The Planetary Workshop, creator of Odyssey Nightmarjoo - TLMC Judge, Starcraft BW/SC2 mapmaking scene veteran Ragoo - TPW Mapmaker, creator of Twilight Peaks and Loki II
Seriously stop trolling, it's getting annoying now
On May 02 2012 23:39 Barrin wrote: I have no idea if we've ever asked them to judge (we would expect a "no", tbh), but we've certainly never turned them down.
considering the talk after Dreamhack map pool brouhaha, and how - I think it was Tyler and Incontrol - said "just ask us to give feedback," I think you should ask around and not simply expect a no from everyone. Like KawaiiRice posts a lot on TL, maybe someone like him could be invited. I think it's important to have legit higher level players at least involved in the judging of these kind of things. Maybe not through the entire process, but at least when it comes to top 3/5 or whatever...
Yeah, now that community-made maps are really getting into ladder and tournaments, I think at least some pro players will be willing to give feedback on maps.
I'm really looking forward to hopefully see the criticism on my map, I believe I need it to help me progress as a mapper so thanks in advance. Congrats to the winners, although I don't think the best map won (not saying it's bad!) I'm really happy to see more non ESV and TPW winners. Keep up the great work everyone.
On the other hand, it's not like they could just drop by the Custom Maps section... I mean its only what, like an inch below the Tournament section? How many times have I seen pros streaming and pull up the tourney's pages? If they were interested in giving feedback, it's there to give. Morrow seems like the only one who is really interested, and that's because he's got a little bit more of a vested interest.
Ideally you would want to have at least one pro from each race. I think getting a little bit of feedback from some pro players would be a really good thing - as Barrin said, its two different skill sets to know what a good map is and to know how to play (read: abuse) it. At the very least, it would give a different perspective, which is always a good thing.
Hell, I give my feedback all the time on the winning maps because I love to voice my opinion. I think you can look back at every MoTM results thread and there's probably a pretty long post where I list all the top 5 maps and say what i like and dislike about them.
I think I could be a great judge, but do I really want to judge? No, not really. I'd rather submit maps and then bitch afterwards when I don't win. haha <3
On May 03 2012 02:56 Barrin wrote: Being a judge is a lot more strenuous than simply giving some feedback on a few maps. Actually its almost completely different. When you're a judge you have to weigh multiple maps against each other (a lot harder than it looks), not just look at maps individually and think of how it could be better. Being a good judge is a lot more time consuming than being a good critic. As Hypertonic pointed out, if they want to give feedback on these maps, they don't really have to be part of MotM to do it.
You know... map's makers can just ask them for feedback too, though if you constantly ask them for help and your maps consistently suck you'll probably discourage them from wanting to help. Should MotM go around asking pros for comments on these maps? What would we do with these comments? Surely we should get them before posting results, but how much should we let them affect the judging process? Personally, as far as this goes I think we should only use their feedback to garner insight that the judges themselves use to judge. If they affect the judging process, it's not like we can ask them to look at every single map... we should only ask them for feedback on like the top 9 maps or so? It would be nice if each finalist could get a quote from a progamer who likes it.
Of course if they wanna judge that's great. But judging is more than just "giving some feedback".
The issue of "feedback" was more an example that pros actually seem to be willing to interact with the map making community. I wasn't suggesting that as co-judges, pros would simply be "giving some feedback" as you so reductively put it.
involving pros would be a step towards giving something like MOTM more credibility. Right now it's just something very internal to a very small map making community. And I also don't think that map makers are actually as good as they think they are when it comes to judging if a map plays well or not. People who play the game competitively would probably have a lot of insights into what makes one map better than another, when comparing a shortlist of maps.
Frankly, I'm extremely surprised that anyone even remotely associated with MOTM would have second thoughts about involving pros in the judging...
I like the 1st map, but I think it's just because this map favors a lot the strategies I recently use. But still it seems like it is indeed the best map for place 1.
The 3rd map looks more like it was put there just because the terrain looks beautiful and not because of map balance, in my opinion the expansion placements are some of the most awful I ever seen, would have deserved 4th or 5th place more.
On the other hand even though 5th map isn't that beautiful, I really like the way the expansions are positioned there. More love for map#5 please.
On May 03 2012 00:59 HypertonicHydroponic wrote: On the other hand, it's not like they could just drop by the Custom Maps section... I mean its only what, like an inch below the Tournament section? How many times have I seen pros streaming and pull up the tourney's pages? If they were interested in giving feedback, it's there to give. Morrow seems like the only one who is really interested, and that's because he's got a little bit more of a vested interest.
I think gumiho is renowned for experimenting new maps. I remember beastyqt posting a thread about how the blizz map pool sucks and community maps should be considered more long ago.
Why are people demanding to go get pros to judge this when there is nothing on the line besides pride? I mean I get everyone wants to be the best but let's be real here, players like Tyler said they would help with major tournament map pools, not a competition that has no prize.
I <3 MotM but you guys really expect too much and bitch and whine too much. I could see being more demanding when it had the IEM sponsorship (did anything ever come out of that lol?) but right now I think it's crazy to be asking for people like Gumiho and others to judge this with no benefit. They won't get paid, the maps likely won't hit tournament circuits, and there is not actual prize afaik.
On May 03 2012 05:59 Diamond wrote: Why are people demanding to go get pros to judge this when there is nothing on the line besides pride? I mean I get everyone wants to be the best but let's be real here, players like Tyler said they would help with major tournament map pools, not a competition that has no prize.
I <3 MotM but you guys really expect too much and bitch and whine too much. I could see being more demanding when it had the IEM sponsorship (did anything ever come out of that lol?) but right now I think it's crazy to be asking for people like Gumiho and others to judge this with no benefit. They won't get paid, the maps likely won't hit tournament circuits, and there is not actual prize afaik.
yeah, it's such a horrible thing to see potential for improvement, and to comment on these issues. Shame on us for bitching and whining.
Sigh.. fine, keep your closed off circle jerk to yourselves then
On May 03 2012 05:59 Diamond wrote: Why are people demanding to go get pros to judge this when there is nothing on the line besides pride? I mean I get everyone wants to be the best but let's be real here, players like Tyler said they would help with major tournament map pools, not a competition that has no prize.
I <3 MotM but you guys really expect too much and bitch and whine too much. I could see being more demanding when it had the IEM sponsorship (did anything ever come out of that lol?) but right now I think it's crazy to be asking for people like Gumiho and others to judge this with no benefit. They won't get paid, the maps likely won't hit tournament circuits, and there is not actual prize afaik.
yeah, it's such a horrible thing to see potential for improvement, and to comment on these issues. Shame on us for bitching and whining.
Sigh.. fine, keep your closed off circle jerk to yourselves then
The thing is, the whining is really frustrating to read as a judge because its not like MotM is some superpower, its just 2 guys (lefix mostly, and I) trying to help the community. If you guys want to get involved, actually do something instead of just whining about what we should do. Trust me, we want to get players involved, we want to get tournaments involved, we want to make everybody happy- its just really difficult. Go ahead and contact players and tournaments or us personally if you want to help ^^
EPT
haha <3
