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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
Your suggestion. I just think it will ruin alot, because on maps with many cliffs. Slowlings can never reach the reapers. It makes it even more mandatory to upgrade fast speed just because of threat of reapers, since zerg have much less larva here. Can only make one queen each hatch. No extra speed on creep. Also now queens have to spend mana on attack. I dont see any good come out here. | ||
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
If protoss dont fire it away, it dies after 10~ seconds(?) | ||
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
On November 08 2013 09:59 Foxxan wrote: I forgot about one important thing with the sphere. Remove the last for ever thing? If protoss dont fire it away, it dies after 10~ seconds(?) But I like the map control aspect of it. Control locations, ramps, place traps to catch enemy Mutas, drops and other stuff. Otherwise its merely a combat spell. And Storm already is the combat spell. Null ward lasts 90 sec atm. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9447 Posts
Making it attack in a line requires a !@#$%^&*-ton of editor work, at least for me since I am not gosu. I had it like that earlier and it was really bugged. So I prefer to let it be kinda like it is, but maybe with different range, damage and time values etc. I do kinda like the manual target though. Remove auto-cast altogether? Lazy Protoss gets everything served for them. But a line attack might indeed make it more microable and fun though... Hmm.. Ahhhhh stupid editor and stupid limited life timeeeee Without straight-line I think the best solution is to increase splash damage --> increases importance of spltting units after sphre is going into your units. That would be a fair adjustment giving my suggestion of increasing energy cost to 50. | ||
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
25mana nocooldown, yes. It will get spammy. If it lasts forever. Well i would love if it was a combat spell. But alright With a cost of 50mana, the damage needs to get up. It doesnt feel very micro for me if the range is 9 on it. It outtargets every single ground unit in the game. And air also. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9447 Posts
Feels so weak atm. I really want my SV's to be powerful if opponent has suboptimal micro. Therefore I would like to see these changes; - 50% radius buff - Sligthly easier to target the "thing" (maybe increase physical size) - Perhaps increase set-up time from 3 to 4 seconds (not sure that's neccesary though). This will make the SV feel really powerfull in situations where Irradiate isn't usefull. This is neccesary as EMP feels very circumstancial (I guess only worth it vs important energy-units). I just think it will ruin alot, because on maps with many cliffs. Slowlings can never reach the reapers. Well point here is that slow-lings can get hit offs when reaper kites (which they can't if movement speed is like 3.5 or more). Not sure why you think cliffs are a concern - Since Reapers don't have have vision up cliffs, lings can therefore easily position them selves to kill reapers attempting to jump into the base (with a bit of overlord spreading). Further, with these changes will also take a reaper 5 shots to kill a zergling which should open up for a lot of micro battles (in previous starbow version it was just 4 shots + reaper moved a lot faster). It doesnt feel very micro for me if the range is 9 on it. It outtargets every single ground unit in the game. And air also. I kinda like the idea though of having a higher range with manual target. Maybe 9 is a a bit overkill though. It is, however, a neccesary condition that you can't "smart-cast" manual attack. For instance if you have 4-5 nullsphres in one location --> You select all Nullsphres --> You left click 5 times on opponents units --> Then manual targetting scales too well in high numbers. Im not sure how it works now, but I like the idea of manual targetting without smart cast + a range boost. But I like the map control aspect of it. Control locations, ramps, place traps to catch enemy Mutas, drops and other stuff. Otherwise its merely a combat spell. And Storm already is the combat spell. I think the most awesome units/abilities have utility in both combat and harass (e.g. Mutalisks, Vultures, even Psy Storm). So giving it a larger/more important role during battles wouldn't hurt IMO. | ||
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LaLuSh
Sweden2358 Posts
I would rather see smartcasting removed to maintain a case for strong spells in Starbow. | ||
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
Not sure why you think cliffs are a concern Because zerg would need to build realtively high amount of lings to stand a chance in direct combat versus reaper, while at the same time they can abuse cliffs. Why this is a concern is it will most likely give an edge to terran cuz he still produces scvs, while zerg delays his tech/eco just for a chance to fend it off | ||
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JohnnyZerg
Italy378 Posts
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Xiphias
Norway2223 Posts
On November 08 2013 09:47 Meerel wrote: well i usually dont read the discussion here so my knowledge is not deep enough to understand everything obviously, just a rdm observation. Texas Map: i think its cool, maybe a little bit too turtlish. and a little bit too small. i can send you the final mapfile becasue i finished it for tlmc3. i will try to make better maps for starbow in the future i promise^^ and maybe you should use pathfinder and polaris rhapsody without the lava stuff According to BW rush distances then Texas is actually a bit too large. All our other maps have editor distance from natural base entrance of 100 (ctrl+m tool for ground distance). Texas has 122 atm. If you could rework it to 100 it would work better for Sbow I think. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9447 Posts
On November 08 2013 10:40 Foxxan wrote: Because zerg would need to build realtively high amount of lings to stand a chance in direct combat versus reaper, while at the same time they can abuse cliffs. Why this is a concern is it will most likely give an edge to terran cuz he still produces scvs, while zerg delays his tech/eco just for a chance to fend it off I think 2 pairs of lings with some micro can hold it off (those fuckers have sick dps). Further, remember that zergs still have queens to deal with them. Ofc. if you only rely on them (no zerglings) to hold of the reapers, you will eventually have less energy for energy. But initialy, you can use 1-2 activations to deal with the reaper, while getting 2-4 pair of lings out. The only opportunity cost of that is only less creep/less energy for speed'ing up morphing buildings, which isn't that significant. Especially as terran also delays his tech by going reaper. I don't think spells should channel for so long as they do now. A fraction of a second would maybe be acceptable (not sure if I even like that), but no 1 second or more as they do now. I would rather see smartcasting removed to maintain a case for strong spells in Starbow SV casts Nerve Jammer instantly. However, the time it takes for NJ to be activated is 3 seconds. Previously we had it where it was instantly, and it was absolutely broken as it messed up the AI of the opponents units very severely. Since then it has been nerfed multiple times and IMO it is close to useless now. Therefore I want to make it a lot stronger, but also more practical to target down the "thing" so it deactivates. Atm. I think its a bit too difficult (its too small probably) so most people can't realistically kill it during mid/larger sized battles. I don't think smartcast really matters here. In a lot of scenarios you may have just 1-3 SV's and thus smartcast doesn't make it that much harder to deal to use. I also believe that the best way of balancing spell is to reward remicro after the spell has been casted (repicating the succes formula of Psy Storm). So by making it more practical to target down the "thing", it should balance it but also add to lots of fun micro battles. Reaper suggestion might work yes. Especially if Reapers are useless at this point. Though, their bomb-ability upgrade already gives them a speed upgrade. It does feel a bit unclean to have 2 seperate upgrades for a niche unit. So maybe we could just combine them? So the cost of the upgrade could be 100/100, 180 seconds. Increases movement speed from 3.1 to 3.8 and gives Reapers the ability to plant bombs. Would that work out? Someone need to try them to see how the timings feel. I think its difficult to get players to use them when its so hard to imagine any scenarios where it is worth getting. Basically there are two types of openings terran can do; 1) Fast expansion. Reaper opening here will delay your expansion by a lot since you need a geyser, less scv's mining minerals and a tech lab before you throw down the expansion. Further, vs protoss you can't deal any damage at all. Rather you will probably just die straight up to heavy Dragoon-opening. 2) Factory tech opening. Typically you use barrack for the addon and switch it with the factory. Then you can upgrade speed/mines/siege to your units. If you get Reaper here you delay all your tech (both in terms of units and upgrades). Especially if you want to open Vultures, this makes no sense at all to get a reaper out before since the Reaper only gets marginally faster out than the Vulture. Thus due to the high opportunity cost of getting the techlab-reaper and since the damage it deals is very limited and unrealibly, it just feels dominated in almost every single way. I can't really imagine any type of scenario where I see it usefull to get out a Reaper in the early game. | ||
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
I will not replace any of the spells in the game. But I am ofc willing to tweak them both for balance and to the increase microability and fun of them. Regarding the Nerve Jammer, if the radius of the effect is increased by too much, units will not be able to shoot the Nerve Jammer in the middile. Now units with range 4 can stand outside and barely shoot it. On the other hand, once players get more used to the game, it will be very easy to neglect the effect of Nerve Jammer. As soon as Terran casts it, focus fire it down with your army. A very easy thing to do. Most people seem to not know that is possible to do though. Im not saying yes or no. Just pointing at some factors to consider. It does feel a bit unclean to have 2 seperate upgrades for a niche unit. So maybe we could just combine them? So the cost of the upgrade could be 100/100, 180 seconds. Increases movement speed from 3.1 to 3.8 and gives Reapers the ability to plant bombs. Would that work out? This is exactly how it works now. Even the values you suggest are already in the game. Except Reapers require Tech lab. If Reapers remain at Tech lab, maybe make them slightly stronger so they are still useful to get. But can´t hit the game super early. Or just skip tech lab requirement and be weaker/slower from start. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9447 Posts
This is exactly how it works now. Except Reapers require Tech lab. If Reapers remain at Tech lab Yeh but I think Reapers start with a higher movement speed. Like 3.4-3.5 right? That's enough to make slowlings close to useless vs them. I think its a much more interesting tradeoff if you reduce starting movement speed to 3.1 and remove the techlab-requirement. Basically the only reason to add the techlab-requirement is due to slow-lings. In all other situations, its fine. So shouldn't we just attempt to fix the core-problem here (slowlings), which I believe can be done by reducing starting movement speed. maybe make them slightly stronger so they are still useful to get. But can´t hit the game super early. Or just skip tech lab requirement and be weaker/slower from start. I prefer the option of making them faster to get initially but slower/weaker is that it makes the build-order opening more different from that of getting Vultures out fast. With the techlab requirement you can maybe just get a Reaper out 10-20 seconds before a Vulture. Without it, it can be out 40-50 seconds faster which means that a Reaper opening forces it different response than a Vulture opening. @ Protoss core units So I know this isn't your highest priority atm. But I still think its a good idea that we think about how to proceed. My stance is that we need to rework core units a bit. These are my suggestions; - Faster slow zealots --> So slowzealots are better early game (so you don't just rely on Dragoons or Cannons) - More fragile Dragoons + slightly faster attack speed --> Makes it less of an allround-unit --> Opens up a role for the Immortal - Immortal at Robo --> Less mobile, lower range - Decent flat DPS + Lots of HP. - Cost of Robo tech reduced from 200/200 to 150/150 --> so you can actually afford to get them for unit-production purpose. Obviously it should be done on test map as there is a lot of balance work needed to get them right. However, on paper this feels really clean (aka well refined roles) and intutive (it makes sense that Immortal has lots of HP). In terms of effects on gameplay, it should add more build order variety, a strong but balanced straight-up protoss army and a different feeling than from playing protoss in BW. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9447 Posts
Regarding the Nerve Jammer, if the radius of the effect is increased by too much, units will not be able to shoot the Nerve Jammer in the middile. Now units with range 4 can stand outside and barely shoot it. Im not sure I am following you here. Why would you kill the NJ when you aren't even inside it? Why not just wait the 12 seconds for it to expire and then move in with your army. For me the important thing is to make it practical to target it down when it is casted on top of your units. On the other hand, once players get more used to the game, it will be very easy to neglect the effect of Nerve Jammer. As soon as Terran casts it, focus fire it down with your army. A very easy thing to do. Most people seem to not know that is possible to do though. Im not saying yes or no. Just pointing at some factors to consider. I don't think its very easy to kill the NJ-thing. I see 3 factors which makes it time-consuming before it is killed; 1) The time it takes before you recognize exactly where it is 2) The time it takes before you group a small amount of units and select them to target the "thing" 3) The projectile-delay So I think it is easy to underestimate the impact of the first factor and assume that players just know where it is instantly. But in reality it takes time for people to be cognitive aware of it. So in reality, it is just a lot more simple/safe to move out of the area instead of targetting it. Making the model larger will have two effects; 1) Make it easier to regognize exactly where it is --> Reduces the time of the first factor 2) Makes it easier to target fire it down --> Reduces the time period of the 2nd period Making the "thing"-model larger will make it more simple/practical for normal (aka non korean players) to micro against it. If we again look a Psy Storm, its charm is that it is simple and intutivie to micro against it. Silver league players as well as Grandmasters can micro against it (though obviously with a different success rate). So therefore I don't think micro should only be something that is possible for very experienced player, and atm. that seems to be the case for NJ. Zerg core units reflections One problem I see related to PvZ, and I guess a huge part of why forge-first opening is neccasary is the way speedhydras rape Slow-zealots. Speedhydra upgrade is tier 1 and legspeed is tier 2, which create a balancewise assymmetry. While I don't think there is anything wrong with assymetry per se, it can IMO be a problem when it limits gameplay option if you in order to play safe needs to use a very restricted build order. I feel that's the case currently for PvZ and I want to improve upon it. First of all, I think slow-zealots should be faster since they are generally useless in all matchups (and it also allows us to reduce HP of Dragoons), but what about also reworking how Hydra's work a bit (?). Something like this could work; - Increase slow-Hydra movement speed --> Makes slow-Hydras vs slow-zealots exciting and fair as speedhydra vs speedlots - Make Hydra speed-upgrade tier 2 --> In "normal" games it is researched at roughly the same time as legspeed --> Removes upgradewise assymmetry The intention here is to remove all the "I have upgrade X --> Aka I own you badly"-concepts from the game. This could possibly make it feel less coinflippy, which will make it possible for Protoss to open gateway-expand and still survive against an early Hydralisk attack --> More build order variety. Would this create any huge balance-problems that can't possibly be fixed? At Tier 2, I guess the Roach could come, which would be the main meatshield for the Zerg-Player (since Protoss also has received a boost with the Immortal). Unlike in Sc2, The Roach here can actually tank shots well vs my suggested Immortal. It is however a bit weak vs lots of Dragoons. But If opponent is heavy Dragoon/Immortal, then mixing in Speedlings is a strong option. | ||
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
I still think in many unit combat. Its a very nice ability to cast. 20 units+. If toss just backs away, well he will take hits from siegetanks alot and vultures. Also againset zerg, if they go hevy ling/lurk which is a common strategy, they cant kill it at all. The ability is not weak initself imo, it can be quite strong. Hm, not strong initself, more strong in the spam thing. In a combat if terran lays 5nerve jammer. This will affect quite alot here. Especially against protoss, since dragoons shoot rather slow and have projectile. I understand the concern here. Since its usually not very good to lay 1-2. But it can be very good to lay 5+ with many units around @Reaper The movementspeed set to slower than slowling is quite nice, but i still feel it givess terran the upperhand by a big margin even tho they cost 50gas. They give mapcontrol, pressure and a safe expansion. Good eco overall. Zerg needs to spend larva on zerglings, and even if he spend larva here on this. It is a chance he will not take down the reapers cuz of the cliff abuse, and also if the number reaches a good amount. Lets say 6-8 reapers. He will most likely need fast movementspeed to. Even if the reapers go down, terran is in a very good spot. | ||
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
It runs a few risks though(deponds how fast they get). Against terran siegetanks in the opening. Against early marines. Early rush against zerg. Besides, one big reason toss goes FFE against zerg is because of the economy, and scout. They get two geysers,better economy and they get to scout zerg(corsair) and they if they want gets +1 for zealots. Safe against everything if reacting properly. Compare that to 2gate opening into speed->nexus->templar tech. They do not die to zerg here, but they get behind. And they are in the dark. Not sure what slowzealots will accomplish against zerg. It takes zerg 140seconds to get the speedupgrade done. It takes protoss 193 seconds to get his speedupgrade done. Not counting gateway, spawningpool here. Zerg just keeps building hydras while protoss needs to get other expensive gas stuff(templars, corsairs). Dont forget, speedlings -> speedzealots. Hm, but its all in context ofcourse. Speedzealots with 1archon is good against speedlings(the archon do alot). Iam curious, what would happen if instead of buffing slowzealots. We give them easier access to their speedupgrade? Seems like easier balance in my eyes. But it doesnt necessarily fix the FFE protoss will do so it just buffs that further maybe. | ||
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CutTheEnemy
Canada373 Posts
Thanks for the extensive reply, I appreciate it  If I wanted to try a few games here or there, what times do people usually turn up? Is there a chat channel to meet in or is it a clan or something? | ||
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Hider
Denmark9447 Posts
On November 09 2013 03:18 CutTheEnemy wrote: @Kabel Thanks for the extensive reply, I appreciate it If I wanted to try a few games here or there, what times do people usually turn up? Is there a chat channel to meet in or is it a clan or something? Starbow channel EU. | ||
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CutTheEnemy
Canada373 Posts
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Fishgle
United States2174 Posts
RIP Safeguard | ||
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