|
On October 28 2012 07:45 hipo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2012 06:49 Freeze967 wrote:
The point is, because of how the bases work now is that you don't need a lot of drones at expansions to maximize income. For max income you want 8 drones mining minerals per base. 11 counting gas. This means a zerg needs extremely few drones, and even if you snipe one base they will just transfer to another base, without losing huge amount of income. Like a zerg on 4 bases, will only want around 32 drones mining minerals, plus like 4-5 mining gas as otherwise it is way to much gas for them. So a total of about 36 drones. This is nothing. Does 32 workers on 4 base actually mines more minerals than 32 workers on 2 base ???
I did a quick test to see if I could get an idea of what the difference was between the mining rates.
Note: I didn't do comprehensive re-trials and did my best to get the average of the fluctuating income rate so take these numbers as such.
All units are in minerals/minute and were done using drones.
1 worker on either near or far patches produce around 48
8 workers around 380
16 workers on 1 base is around 680
16 on 2 bases is around 770
32 on 2 bases is around 1312
32 on 4 bases is around 1600
So to answer the above question, it seems as if 32 on 4 bases mines about 20% more than 32 on 2 bases.
Keep in mind that these numbers are my best effort to get the average of the highly fluctuating income values and should not be viewed as being 100 percent accurate.
|
http://i.imgur.com/E7Si9.jpg
Quite noticeable.
Toss was hovering around 1300, spiked to 1400 occasionally, dipped to 1200 often.
Zerg hovered pretty stable at 1600, spiked to 1700, dipped to 1500 often.
This is why when I play Z I transfer workers to be mining as SOON as my hatch pops.
Pretty sure Capn also splits his workers everywhere.
|
AHHAHAHAAH. Me and Trace posted the same experiment as the same time.
As my witnesses for the experiment I have froggie, canhanrah, and freeze.
|
Well, yours was comparing toss to zerg. Mine was purely about saturation levels.
+ Show Spoiler +Plus I was 1 minutes faster. :D
|
On October 28 2012 08:44 Traceback wrote:Well, yours was comparing toss to zerg. Mine was purely about saturation levels. + Show Spoiler +Plus I was 1 minutes faster. :D
Workers mine identically. They both have the exact same stats for mining and speed. Races were for reference.
Touche about the minute early.
|
On October 28 2012 08:49 decemberscalm wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2012 08:44 Traceback wrote:Well, yours was comparing toss to zerg. Mine was purely about saturation levels. + Show Spoiler +Plus I was 1 minutes faster. :D Workers mine identically. They both have the exact same stats for mining and speed. Races were for reference. Touche about the minute early.
Oh I see, I thought you were trying to show probes vs drones. I see now. Mine still had more detail. =P
But yea, nice to see results corroborated from two sources.
|
I'll re-install SC2 to try this out  Comments later.
|
On October 28 2012 12:41 Ogww wrote:I'll re-install SC2 to try this out Comments later.
Just remember it's a WIP. It will only get better.
|
--- New patch on EU ---
This patch mostly contain changes for Zerg macro but also some minor changes for the other races.
I have used the statements below as a goal for this patch. This is what I am trying to archieve:
- Zerg must have a stronger decision between spending larvas on drones or army.
- Zerg must have reasons and methods to micro his units in combat.
- The Queens energy pool should be used in many important ways for Zerg macro.
I warn you already - the numbers I have adjusted in this patch is my attempt to strengthen these 3 aspects. I can not playtest this without uploading it.
---
First of all, the build time for ALL workers have been increased from 20 to 22 seconds. In return, Chrono boost and Calldown SCV are now slightly better because they can be used more often. (I will come to Inject) This means that even P and T players need to use the macro mechanics more often to get an edge in the economical development.
For details:
+ Show Spoiler +Nexus regenerate energy 10% faster.
Calldown SCV cooldown reduced from 45 seconds to 35
Hatchery now spawn larvas at 22 seconds instead of 18. That is quite an increase... That encourages three things:
- Larvas are more precious and Zerg really must decide how to use them.
- Each unit is more valuable in the early and mid game since they are more "larva expensive."
- Inject is more important for Zerg macro, thus the need for APM is increased to get a big Z army.....
Queen
The Queen has the following abilities:
- Inject target Hatchery/Lair/Hive to make it spawn larvas twice as fast. Lasts 33 seconds. (You get 1 larva every 11 second instead of 22.) The energy cost is 25. You need to use Inject often but it is not always useful since hatcheries can only store 3 larva!
- Creep tumor spreads creep ca 20% faster after they pop. In return, every creep tumor replicates itself slower. It is now 30 seconds cooldown instead of 15. This means that a Queen who places a tumor gets the effect from creep spread faster, compared to the slower replication of tumors.
- Transfuse costs 25 energy and heals 75 life. If you use it on a building that is morphing, you speed up the morph rate for 20 seconds. In reality, you make a building complete itself 15 seconds faster everytime you Transfuse it.
The Queen starts with 50 energy. The Z player can choose two spells to use when the Queen pops. Inject and Tumor? Inject and Transfuse? Double Inject? Etc.
What is the purpose of this?
The Queen can now effect 3 crucial areas of Zerg base management.
- Increase production of units
- Increase production of "technology."
- Increase the strength of base defence due to cheaper Transfuse.
In reality, Inject is the strongest spell. To further strengthen the need of using the energy on something else I have adjusted the following values:
- Spine Crawler has 200 HP instead of 300 and attack range 9 instead of 7. It is not as tanky anymore. Queen need to transfuse it in combat to make it survive better AND Zerg needs to wall of his spine crawlers. Since they have longer range they are able to shoot over buildings protecting them.
- Hydra den BT increased from 40 to 45.
- Evolution chamber BT increased from 35 to 45.
- Baneling nest BT increased from 75 to 80.
- Spore Crawler BT increased from 35 to 40.
- Spine Crawler BT increased from 50 to 55.
- Lurker Den BT increased from 75 to 80.
- Spire BT increased from 100 to 110.
- Lair BT increased from 80 to 90.
- Hive BT increased from 100 to 110.
Since Transfuse can speed all buildings up, I suspect that Z could easily get Spine Crawlers and Spore Crawlers into play in no time when he sees the enemy approaching. Or get Hydra or Baneling busts into play at very early stages in the game. They can still do it if they commit to it! Just not extremely fast.
If Zerg is NOT using neither Transfuse to speed up buildings or Inject he will fall behind. We get this dilemma:
- If Z only uses a lot of Injects early in the game, his tech will come into play slower compared to the other races.
- If Z only speeds up his tech structures, he will not get as much larvas.
- If Z spends all his energy on doing both, he has no energy to Transfuse the Spine crawlers, in case of an attack.
...
Remember what I said above?
+ Show Spoiler + - Zerg must have a stronger decision between spending larvas on drones or army.
- Zerg must have reasons and methods to micro his units in combat.
- The Queens energy pool should be used in many important ways for Zerg macro.
The first and thid statement have been explained. The second one has only been partially explained - larvas spawn slower. Thus, Zerg can NOT replace his units as easily in the early and mid game which makes him more eager to let them survive. But I felt that this was not enough to enchance that statement.
Two weeks ago I introduced the creep regeneration system. Each Zerg unit heals 4 HP per second on creep if they have NOT taken damage for 5 seconds. So.. Micro your units out of combat, heal on the creep for a few seconds, bring them back into the fight. The system would indeed make Zerg more eager to micro when fighting on creep, if the early units actually benefited from it. Thats the problem. The core units die so fast and are so replaceable that there is barely no need to micro them.
Here comes the bomb:
+ Show Spoiler +New stats for Zerglings.
HP 50 <--------------------- !!!
Attack speed 0.65
Speed 3 - Upgraded speed 4.25 - speed 4.75 on creep
They are a little bit larger.
Earlier stats in Starbow
HP 35
Attack speed 0.55
Speed 3 - Upgraded speed 4.25 - speed 4.75 on creep
SC2 Zerglings
HP 35
Attack speed 0.7
Speed 2.95 - Upgraded 4.75 - speed 6 on creep
What is the purpose of this?
- We will see fewer Zerglings in the early and mid game due to the SLOW larva acceleration. (Each one is more valuable)
- Each Zergling will be more deadly.
- Higher HP = a little bit more time to actually control them in combat.
Now Z benefits BOTH from micro Zerglings and Hydras out of combat on creep to heal them.
Note - they will still die quickly! This adds a tiny amount of more life time to them.
Zealots will 4 shot them. With +1 attack upgrade they will 3 shot them. Also remember that its harder to get Zerglings into play in the early game. Each built Zergling equal 1 lost Drone. And that will be more painful now. There are also some other damage interactions between Zerglings and other units that might need to be adjusted.
Thats it for Zerg.
Remember that all of these changes are my way to strengthen the statements presented at the top of this post. This is probably not perfect in terms of balance and actual numbers. Maybe it sucks hard as hell in game. I have no other way of knowing than to try it. But instead of just writing the changes down in a list, I wanted to explain my thoughts and intentions so you know WHY I am doing stuff like I do. I have more stuff I plan to adjust or add to Zerg, but I take it step by step instead of everything at once.
Further reading: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=304955¤tpage=132#2636
--- Changes for the other races ---
All bases on all maps will have 1500 minerals on 4 patches and 1000 minerals on 4 patches. The gas has been increased to 3500 from 3000.
Shield ability now has 2 charges instead of 1. There is 60 seconds cooldown between each charge.
Planetary Fortress has a small splash attack instead of NO splash attack.
Spider mines are larger and accelerates slower towards the enemy. Its a bit easier to focus fire them.
Ghosts cost ha been decreased from 150/150 to 75/150. (I want to encourage more Ghost play)
Lockdown has increased range from 8 to 12. It lasts 30 seconds instead of 20. (I want to encourage this ability more)
Siege tanks, Goliaths and Science Vessels BT have been increased by 5 seconds.
New map uploaded on EU - Daedalus by lefix
+ Show Spoiler +
I will send this patch to NA before I go to bed. I just need to test this on EU first. Maybe there are some crucial flaws in it that most be adressed immideately.
|
Nice patch for JohnnyZerg, balance zerg, buff ghost, buff shield.
thx kabel
|
|
|
Yes. Can´t log in into the map editor.
Laertes, I did not find out how to make the Reaver selectable. I want to fix that bug.
Do you know?
|
B.NET at the moment is down
|
|
|
|
|
Okay, so far, I think I like all of your changes Kabel. This Inject, going back more towards the Breed style, is slightly better, and in fact might not be too bad at all if we can continue to increase the importance of the Queen's other spells. Like I've mentioned before, Supply Calldown on the OC is a spell lacking depth, but given that it shares an energy pool with SCV Calldown and Scan it's perfectly okay that way. It's just that Inject is currently more like Zerg's SCV Calldown...
Only thing I'm against is those Zergling changes... that's pretty out there.
More health than Marines? Especially with the fact that they still cost half as many minerals/supply apiece? I know you're trying to encourage more micro from Zerg players but breaking the flavor of Zerg's most iconic unit is not good. This throws off the dynamic between lings and siege tanks, lings and banelings, lings and zealots... I just know it's going to feel awful. Durability is not what we need to be looking into at least for that particular unit. I don't think it will encourage flanking or sweet micro tricks, people are just going to use Zerglings like they always have except they'll be harder to kill, ergo, even more A-move worthy.
I agree with the sentiment that it's worth a try because we don't really know for sure how it's gonna play out but, that's my prediction, and it just feels wrong regardless. There's going to have to be a drastically visible positive change in Zergling micro for me to come around to this idea.
Let me offer you an alternative for Hydralisks:
- Double the attack cooldown (fires twice as slow).
- Increase the number of spines per shot from 1 to 2. (Use Queen projectile animation if necessary).
Just like the changes with the Stalker, by giving Hydralisks higher burst damage and more time between shots while keeping the same total DPS, they will be more microable with both focus firing and stutter step. But it has another consequence as well - high burst damage leads to more potential overkill with projectile attacks. Therefore, the same number of Hydras against a small surface area of targets will distribute their damage as low as half as optimally as before, and waste a lot more damage overkilling targets. Increasing the surface area of targets per Hydralisk, ie Flanking, will counteract this.
It will also allow Hydras to deal more damage on that first salvo when using burrow ambush tactics, something that they are notorious for in the lore but that is rarely seen in games of SC2. It will also help them against hit-and-run attacks from Mutalisks, since often against fast moving evasive targets you're only going to get a single shot off before they come around again from another angle.
Now since we're increasing the number of spines rather than just doubling the damage, Armor upgrades for the opponent will still retain the same cost-effectiveness, rather than being halved. None of the balance should change, just the micro potential.
Let me know what you think.
|
What is the purpose of the tank, vessle, and goliath BT increase?
|
|
|
|
|
Finally is the patch up at all maps. I eager to try the patch so I will just write a quick answear now ^^
@Zerglings
Yeah I know its a risky change. I just want to see how this effect the way players play with Zerglings. If it is just for the worse I will re-adjust it.
@Hydras
Sounds interesting. Will look further into it
@ tanks vessels goliaths
Its very easy to reach a large mass of tanks quite fast in the game, due to the fast BT. If the BT is a bit higher, tanks in the early game will be a "rarer" thing and not as massable. When Terran gets a couple of factories we can see the high number of tanks.
It might increase the viability of going marines in TvT. The strength of marines is short BT, the weakness of mech is the higher BT.
Edit: this was a shitty answear. In short, tanks are very strong and could be a little "rarer" in the early game
@The fear of Zerg being too slow now due to the larva spawn rate
The Queen is the engine in Zerg. If it come into the game a bit quicker Zerg might get more active stuff to do early. But we need to try it first and see how it feels
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/OEZfc.jpg)
