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[M] (4) Xel'Naga's Folly

Forum Index > SC2 Maps & Custom Games
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HypertonicHydroponic
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
437 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-11-05 04:27:21
October 14 2011 04:07 GMT
#1
Xel'Naga's Folly v.1.00
This map is intended for the TL Mapping Contest instigated by Blizzard.

This map is published on NA.

+ Show Spoiler [Old] +
This map is intended for the TL Mapping Contest instigated by Blizzard. This map needs a fitting name -- please leave a comment with your suggestions.

This map will be published to NA once it is named. That's really the only thing keeping it from being v.1.0 and published. I will edit this post with notification of when that happens.

+ Show Spoiler [Other Contest Maps] +
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=275739 -- Blockbuster
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=279838 -- Trillium Toxicodendron


Creation Details:
+ Show Spoiler +
As this map is intended for the TL Map Contest, I obviously could not attempt one of my "index of features" maps that I have a bunch of innovations and features all crammed together. On the other hand, one could not waste the opportunity to try to bring something new to the table. So I settled on one "no-no" and one "interesting new feature" idea that I've had and put them together in this map, while retaining everything as as Blizzard-like as I could.

But then it happened, as I was shaping my terrain, the aethestic for the map that I was creating leaped out at me, previously undetermined, and I could not help but go with the artistic flow that was compelling me, nay, commanding me to bring it to fruition. One might even go so far as to say, it painted itself. And so, what would have otherwise been a most likely hum-drum, unobtrusive, and perhaps mildly tolerable desert turned into a work of art such that I might want to hang it on my wall if it weren't meant for the gruesomely bloody engagements of war.

As I made the final touches, a story for the terrain began to emerge, and now I present to you the story of this terrain:

Long, long ago, when the Xel'Naga were still young in their knowledge and striving for control over the universe, a particularly experiemental facility was created in this region. Before their techniques became as powerful or refined as they would become in later years, this facility engaged in some strange and very unnatural endeavors to increase their understanding of the universal forces. Unknowingly, they tapped into a particularly virulent primal force, one might say could be likened to an intelligence. When it could no longer bear the burdens being laid upon it, this force railed against these beings and their facility, and the land rose up to swallow it all whole. The remnant towers and small surrounding region, for some reason, were the only things that could not be engulfed by this force... perhaps they contain some secrets still. What has brought you to this region? You are not sure, but you have the sensation that your presence is known.

So there it is, as epic and yet as lame as a paragraph could be -- I hope that helps with map name suggestions.

So, enough drama, time to get informative. The very first thing to note about this map is that it is both rotationally and reflectively symmetrical. Fold it, twist it, flip it, everything should match up.

The "interesting new feature" I mentioned is the "checkerboard" middle or "moguls" if you like skiing. As often happens what I think will not take too much space often takes up more space, so there are only nine (9) "moguls" and they are a bit more spread out than one might see on an actual checker board. If there were corner ramps, this might have worked more like I orginally planned, but then, the inspiration for the aesthetic might not have taken shape before my very eyes. Five (5) are actually mogul-like in that they are little hills, and four (4) are actually inverted moguls, or little valleys. The valleys contain the Xel'Naga watchtowers.

This middle area fairly wide open except for the broken corners of the ramps of the moguls. It is also surrounded by a large ravine. This ravine contains a gold base with rocks on the expansion location (as opposed to on top of the resources) at each of the cardinal direction limits of the map (so 3, 6, 9, 12). This ravine is a continuous loop, has eight (8) line of sight blocker walls separating the gold base regions, and twenty eight (28) ramps out of it, twenty (20) into the middle and eight (8) are into the expansions (naturals).

The main bases are located in the very corners of the map. Each main is approximately thirty (30) CC in area, insofar as the orginal land form I started with actually had thirty (30) CCs smooshed into it, and then I shaped it from there. There is not much to say about the main per-se, it most distinguishable feature is the "no-no" which in a way is sort of a two-in-one "no-no". There are two (2) exits out of the main into two (2) identical naturals. The "more than one main choke" is the first part of the "no-no". The second part of the "no-no" is the fact the ramps are cardinal direction ramps. (Part of?) The reason I understand about why the having more than one enterence to the main is a "no-no" is that it makes the early part of the game too accessible for/vulnerable to certain cheese strategies. (Part of?) The reason I understand about why using cardinal driection ramps is a "no-no" is the fact that normal wall-off configurations cannot be applied. The reason that this two part "no-no" is viable (and dare I say, a "yes-yes") is because it solves both objections in one stroke: it is configured such that it essentially comes to one choke point and that choke point allows for a standard wall-off configuration.

The naturals each have one ramp out into the ravine. Almost directly across from these ramps are ramps into the middle section of the map. An interesting thing to note is that the rush distance from the ramp of a natural to the "close natural" of the next base is nearly the same via the ravine and via the middle. This can allow for some very interesting tactics. There are three parallel, single-width, cardinal-direction ramps from the middle directly in front of the gold base, which allows for some intercept play between two passing armies, as well as a means of sneak attacking the gold base.

Finally, the asthetics: after completing the moguls in the middle, I started to work on what would become the ravine. Essentially, I was trying to find some way to make the otherwise straightfoward single pathway from one "close natural" to the next more interesting, and I didn't feel I should expand on the mogul theme any more than had already been done. As the ravine took shape and was copied from one quadrant to the next I noticed the uncanny resemblance of a face in each of the cardinal directions. A few ramps, and a bunch of textures later, voila, the quartet of interlocking beast/demon heads formed by the earth itself. What makes this ever more cool is the fact that the watchtowers have those little eye icons on the mini-map in game, and when you control two adjecent towers, it looks as though that face it looking out at you.

And that's really all there is two it, I hope this goes way beyond what people expect of 16 base rotational map -- in a good way!!!

(All that and I couldn't think up a name, right?)


Map Pics:
+ Show Spoiler +
Overview
(90 degrees)
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+ Show Spoiler [old] +
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(Game angle, full map)
+ Show Spoiler [old] +
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Analyzer (not significantly changed by the update, approximately 2 less than shown here for all nat-to-nat distances -- not worth re-posting new pictures)
+ Show Spoiler +

Summary
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Rush distances
+ Show Spoiler +

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Other Rush distances and variant routes (rocks used to force routes)
+ Show Spoiler +

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Details
+ Show Spoiler ['Beauty' shots] +

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+ Show Spoiler [Wall-offs] +

Terran
Main
[image loading]

Nat
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Protoss
Main (Standard block)
[image loading]

Main (full block -- either pylon full blocks)
[image loading]

Nat
[image loading]

Forge Fast Expand (opening toward Main -- 1 zealot block)
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Forge Fast Expand (opening away from Main -- 1 zealot & 1-2 probe block)
[image loading]

+ Show Spoiler [Creep connections] +

First tumor
[image loading]

Second tumor (expansion is connected -- you can see the edge of both bases on one screen)
[image loading]

Third tumor (both expansions are connected -- there is even a small strip of creep on the low ground connecting both Nats)
[image loading]

+ Show Spoiler [Siege range] +

Into the Nat
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Into the Nat/Main
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"Conatining" the Nat(s)
[image loading]

Into the Gold
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+ Show Spoiler [Mini Map] +

[image loading]



Map Specifications:
  • Size -- 150x150 playable (176x184 full)
  • Tileset -- All Mar Sara
  • # Players -- 4
  • Main Locations -- 1:30 /4:30 /7:30 /10:30
  • # Bases -- 16
    • 12x 8min, 2gas {main & x2 natural} (standard min/gas amount)
    • 4x 6min, 2gas {wide ravine sections} (standard min/gas amount)
    • Total Resources -- 260,000
    • Saturation -- 11.5555~

  • Rush Distance Timings
    • Close (these will be from the point of view of the 7:30 base to the 4:30 base)
      • Main Clockwise Ramp to Main CCW Ramp -- ~34sec
      • Main Clockwise Ramp to Main Clockwise Ramp (through middle) -- ~41sec
      • Nat CCW Ramp to Nat Clockwise Ramp -- ~27sec
      • Nat Clockwise Ramp to Nat Clockwise Ramp (or CCW to CCW) -- ~33sec to ~36sec depending on the route the pathing takes
      • Nat Clockwise Ramp to Nat CCW Ramp -- ~38sec

    • Cross
      • Main Clockwise Ramp to Main CCW Ramp -- ~51sec
      • Main Clockwise Ramp to Main Clockwise Ramp (through middle) -- ~52sec
      • Nat CCW Ramp to Nat Clockwise Ramp (or CW to CCW) -- ~43sec
      • Nat Clockwise Ramp to Nat Clockwise Ramp (or CCW to CCW) -- ~45sec


  • # Xel'Naga Watchtowers -- 4
    • One in each valley/eye in the middle section

  • Line of Sight Blockers -- 8
    • One on each side of the 3/6/9/12 gold bases separating the area from that in front of the natural ramps

  • Destructible Rocks -- 4
    • Covering each gold base expansion location -- 1

  • Unpathable terrain -- None especially noteworthy


Change Log:
version 0.90 posted -- OP
version 1.00 posted -- map named and published to NA

Final comments:
Once again, this map is heavily influenced by my Brood War affinities, at the very least insofar this map is quite, quite fully square... but I feel it's safe to say that the Brood War map Beltway may have subconsciously influenced the direction of this map now that I step back and look at it. Anyway, I hope you find this map, fun, balanced, and the best in the pool! Please keep all criticism to objective specifics after having playtested and confirmed a potential problem -- speculation will not be considered given what limited time I have (left) to put into these maps (unless it is an obvious oversight, of course). And please suggest a fitting name!!! It has name! (sorry for zigging when you thought I would zag, but I just felt like I had to keep up the Blizzard lore somehow... thanks for all the great suggestions!)

Edit1: (10/15/11) Added Zerg creep connection pictures and Protoss Forge Fast Expand pictures.
Edit2: (10/15/11) See Change Log version 1.00 update.
Edit3: (10/18/11) Added analyzer images
Edit4: (11/05/11) Updated overview picture, added some analyzer notes
[P] The Watery Archives -- http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=279070
Gl!tch
Profile Joined December 2010
United States573 Posts
October 14 2011 04:11 GMT
#2
Include analyzer theres alot going on here.

Also, i would include "Skull" or "Skulls" in the name, as they circle the center.
“I mean, they say you die twice. One time when you stop breathing and a second time, a bit later on, when somebody says your name for the last time.” ― Banksy
HypertonicHydroponic
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
437 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-10-14 04:31:30
October 14 2011 04:13 GMT
#3
I would have included analyzer shots, but I have not been able to get the latest versions to work.

Edit: lol, I guess I should give up now, they were supposed to be more like demon/beast heads than skulls. But I'll keep that in mind.

Edit2: here's a pic with the art mostly removed and most of the ramps highlighted. I hope that helps!
+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]
[P] The Watery Archives -- http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=279070
Namrufus
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
United States396 Posts
October 14 2011 05:28 GMT
#4

Long, long ago, when the Xel'Naga were still young in their knowledge and striving for control over the universe, a particularly experiemental facility was created in this region. Before their techniques became as powerful or refined as they would become in later years, this facility engaged in some strange and very unnatural endeavors to increase their understanding of the universal forces. Unknowingly, they tapped into a particularly virulent primal force, one might say could be likened to an intelligence. When it could no longer bear the burdens being laid upon it, this force railed against these beings and their facility, and the land rose up to swallow it all whole. The remnant towers and small surrounding region, for some reason, were the only things that could not be engulfed by this force... perhaps they contain some secrets still. What has brought you to this region? You are not sure, but you have the sensation that your presence is known.


+ Show Spoiler [suggestions] +

Dead Gaze? (watchtower eyes and "your presence is known")
Dread Icon? (land formed into frightening image)
Watchlands?
<something> of Ancients? Ancient <something>
Mark of Transgression? (xel-naga overstep bounds, leaving lasting mark of the pain they have caused)

(or any combination of the above)


I won't comment on the layout too much except to say that the two-natural idea is interesting, it will probably make it very hard to do an FFE on this map though, having to defend those two seperated chokes. how many buildings does it take to block off both one of the main entrances and one of the natural entrances?
This is it... the alpaca lips.
prodiG
Profile Blog Joined January 2010
Canada2016 Posts
October 14 2011 05:34 GMT
#5
Skull Mountain~~~~~~~~~~
ESV Mapmaking Team || http://twitter.com/prodiGsc || Real talk, I don't have time to sugar-coat it for you sir
Karellen
Profile Joined June 2011
United States50 Posts
October 14 2011 06:39 GMT
#6
Necropolis of the Xel'naga? Or maybe Xel'naga Necropolis? idk, just an idea.
Alpino
Profile Joined June 2011
Brazil4390 Posts
October 14 2011 08:30 GMT
#7
Name it Youkai, it kinda remembered me those japanese demons :D.
20/11/2015 - never forget EE's Ember
TheAmazombie
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States3714 Posts
October 14 2011 09:07 GMT
#8
How about Scorched Valley?
We think too much and feel too little. More than machinery, we need humanity. More than cleverness, we need kindness and gentleness. Without these qualities, life will be violent and all will be lost. -Charlie Chaplin
HaXXspetten
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
Sweden15718 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-10-14 09:18:31
October 14 2011 09:18 GMT
#9
Ultimate Chasm of Death and Destruction!!!


+ Show Spoiler +
Now don't take that too seriously
risk.nuke
Profile Joined May 2010
Sweden2825 Posts
October 14 2011 09:42 GMT
#10
Laughing Ravine
Neo.G Soulkey, Best, firebathero. // http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/index.php?show_part=31
The_Templar
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
your Country52797 Posts
October 14 2011 10:54 GMT
#11
This map is a bit complicated for blizzard to consider using. Also, your natural is far away from the main choke(s). Also, you are forced to take a fourth with rocks unless you take a distant expo.
I would also suggest pushing all the bases a little closer, removing all the fancy stuff, and making 2 of the golds blue bases with no rocks.
Moderatorshe/her
TL+ Member
mikiao
Profile Joined May 2010
United States161 Posts
October 14 2011 11:08 GMT
#12
Brahma's Valley.

Brahma is a four headed (or faced) god in Hindu. And your map looks like it has 4 faces, to me at least.
"I must rule with eye and claw — as the hawk among lesser birds. "-Duke Leto Atreides
BatCat
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Austria630 Posts
October 14 2011 11:35 GMT
#13
Skullpunk, 'cause it kinda reminds me of steampunk.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Azzur
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Australia6257 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-10-14 11:58:23
October 14 2011 11:54 GMT
#14
Scorched Ravine
HypertonicHydroponic
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
437 Posts
October 14 2011 12:25 GMT
#15
@ Namrufus -- I have to get out the door right now (work, you know ) but I will edit in tonight a pic showing a possible FFE configuration. Also, it takes only a single Pylon/Supply Depot to completely block off a main ramp, either at the top or bottom of the ramp (and still leave room to get out the other side!).

@ TehTemplar -- How did I know you would be my example of speculation? You are just mad I used textures. :p Too complicated for what? Early decisions? Attack routes? Winning the game? This is not a specific nor playtested comment. What is wrong with a fourth that has rocks? No one is forcing you to break them. It may not be optimal mining, but it is also a gold base.

And the big one... Natural is too far away for what? FFE as Namrufus said? Zerg fast hatch? I think it is a fine distance for either. Again, I will edit in tonight some zerg pics demonstrating how with two creep tumors you can connect the main to the nat, and with three you can connect all three with even a little strip of creep on the low ground making a second connection of the bases. Why does the main ramp have to be right on top of the nat building?
[P] The Watery Archives -- http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=279070
Hassybaby
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United Kingdom10823 Posts
October 14 2011 13:29 GMT
#16
Bath-tile?

Ber seriously, I like Mark of Transgression that Namrufus suggested
"These guys are mindfucking me into a sex coma" | "Mayonnaise is a must-have lubricant when performing necrophilia"
Asday
Profile Joined November 2010
United Kingdom388 Posts
October 14 2011 16:58 GMT
#17
"Gruntfuttocky McButtockbuttocks".

Not really to do with the map, but if it made it into tournament play and the casters had to say that, I'd die happy.
The_Templar
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
your Country52797 Posts
October 14 2011 17:51 GMT
#18
@ TehTemplar -- How did I know you would be my example of speculation? You are just mad I used textures. Too complicated for what? Early decisions? Attack routes? Winning the game? This is not a specific nor playtested comment. What is wrong with a fourth that has rocks? No one is forcing you to break them. It may not be optimal mining, but it is also a gold base.

And the big one... Natural is too far away for what? FFE as Namrufus said? Zerg fast hatch? I think it is a fine distance for either. Again, I will edit in tonight some zerg pics demonstrating how with two creep tumors you can connect the main to the nat, and with three you can connect all three with even a little strip of creep on the low ground making a second connection of the bases. Why does the main ramp have to be right on top of the nat building?

Oh come on, I use textures too! The map is too complicated for attacking. If you go from top left to top right, for example, there are like 6 attack routes possible. This heavily favors zerg, in conjunction with how vast and open the center is.
Rocks- In high level play, generally rocks to the gold will be destroyed in the late game, unless it's an insane macro game, which maps like this almost force. Basically, a fast 4th from zerg is annoying to take because you must take a gold. (Don't ask me, this is feedback I have gotten )
The natural is "too far away" in a sense because, to Forge FE or 1 rax expand, etc, you must block all entries into your natural, and the natural does not protect both entrances into the main base, just one. Basically, taking and defending your natural leaves your main open to attack.
Also, if I'm not mistaken, the (both) natural(s) is (are) seigable. (Man it's confusing when you have two naturals ) This is often really bad for zerg. Finally, taking a fast expansion is generally a good idea when the nat to nat distances are far. They are only far when you take the expansion away from your opponent, so in positions that are not across from each other, you must scout your opponent before taking an expansion so you don't take your first expansion near your opponent.

However, this is much less complicated than your previous maps. Good job!
Moderatorshe/her
TL+ Member
HypertonicHydroponic
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
437 Posts
October 14 2011 23:40 GMT
#19
Thank you all who have doled out their wisdom on map name suggestions so far. I like a bunch of the ideas you have brought to the table and have been considering using some of them.

The top three I am toying with are:

"Brahma's Revenge" - playing more toward the story, the four-faces of Brahma was a great call
"Skullduggery" - playing upon the tricksy-ness of how combat can flow and the skull theme that people seem to see in the map
"Ancient's Transgression" - play toward the story with slightly less reference to a specific religion

I think if there were a Norse version of Brahma I would easily settle on that name given the sway Blizzard allows norse mythology to have in the SC universe (at least as far as naming stuff goes). However, my Norse is a little weak, so I have no idea if there is such a thing. The only thing I think that is stopping me from going with that right away, besides holding out for the Norse version, is the fact that it is religion specific in a sci-fi universe. I could still be pursuaded to go this direction though. What do you think of these three? Is there something better that combines the lore/art and combat flow?

I will have chosen a name and published the map by the end of this weekend.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

@ Asday -- "Well guys, our double map for today is..." ::sigh:: as much as I like to find the humor in life, I can't even bring myself to copy and paste that, much less re-type it, much less really sound out in my head Artosis or someone saying that... Wow, just, wow.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

@ TehTemplar -- so by "far" you really mean "split attention"? I believe that in the little section that you left out in that post of mine that you quoted, I mention the fact that you can wall off that other "enterence to the natural" (which really is the other enterance to the main) with a single Pylon -- this may change the timing slightly for a fast expand, but only testing is going to determine whether its game breaking for that opening on this map. I have other counterpoint I'd like to add, but first I need to update the OP.
[P] The Watery Archives -- http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=279070
greggy
Profile Joined October 2010
United Kingdom1483 Posts
October 14 2011 23:43 GMT
#20
Cloverfield.
HypertonicHydroponic
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
437 Posts
October 15 2011 06:25 GMT
#21
Edit1: (10/15/11) Added Zerg creep connection pictures and Protoss Forge Fast Expand pictures.

OP updated.

@ greggy -- You know, I like "Cloverfield" in that it is a great reference (also, the clover shape the dark face regions make) and I'm sure somewhat fitting but I didn't see it. =X I know, lame, right?

@ Hassybaby -- I misread this one before, but once I understood what you were saying I literally lol'ed. I think I'd have to shower with my clothes on in *that* bathroom! Ain't the hot water give'n me shivers, if ya know what I mean.

---------------------------------------------------

@ TehTemplar -- Now that I've updated the OP, just briefly my thoughts on some of those other points of consideration about the map and how it plays/conforms to the norm/etc.

Fast Expansions -- see the edited OP. If the pictures should explain this.

Attack routes -- I think these boil down more simply than you think; you have through the middle, and around the ravine. Sure you can dance around the middle, but, the towers pretty well keep tabs on the whole area. In close positions, the most direct route through the middle or the ravine are pretty comparable, so this makes things interesting, but not unmanageable. Going around the ravine the long way from close positions... well your opponent can pretty much just kill you, so you probably don't want to do that. Cross positions, you are pretty much going through the middle. You *can* go around, but it is much longer. Of course, if the game goes on, routes to the golds, etc. start to come into play, but at that point, you should have a much better handle on where things are on the map.

Golds -- I think that complaining about a quick fourth when a quick-ish third exists, sounds a little zerg qq. If zerg really want the base that bad, and let's face it, zerg expand for the gas, they can 2-hatch to the sides of the rocks not only mitigating the suboptimal mineral mining, but negating any suboptimal gas mining (which there *will* be even if you break down the rocks because of the way the gas is laid out -- one will always be one tile further to the base than the other) and also increasing production, *and* control over the base. Should one be sniped, the other might not be. But at this point, why could something not be dedicated to break down the rocks? You're on three bases already most likely.

All of this is really to say... you are gonna help me play test it right?

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Callynn
Profile Joined December 2010
Netherlands917 Posts
October 15 2011 16:48 GMT
#22
It looks really cool but the two golds on the far east and far west seem to be out of mapbounds. I did not actually try, but it looks like you won't be able to mine them like that. If that's the case just modify the map bounds a bit.

As for the name: Façade (fake expression on a face, referring to treachery or underlying evil)
Comparing BW with SCII is like comparing a beautiful three-master sailing ship with a modern battlecruiser. Both are beautiful in their own way, both perform the same task, but they are worlds apart in how they are built and how they are steered.
Randomaccount#77123
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States5003 Posts
October 16 2011 01:01 GMT
#23
--- Nuked ---
HypertonicHydroponic
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
437 Posts
October 16 2011 03:22 GMT
#24
@ Callynn -- I think you are referring to the yellow map bounds which are the camera bounds and not the play area bounds, those are blue. Since the camera is in the center of the screen there is playable/buildable/mineable area that extends past the camera boundaries. Thanks for the heads up though, and for the name suggestion.

@ Barrin -- You run a tight ship, thank you, sir!
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docvoc
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
United States5491 Posts
October 16 2011 05:13 GMT
#25
i don't see how one could attack with melee units on this map, their are so many chokes and no open areas it seems like. There is a lot going on here and it seems like some of the holes could be take away like maybe 1/2 going diagonally are holes and the other 1/2 is peidmonts. I just don't see a clear way to use archon/ht/zealot here. PvP this would be a nightmare it seems like because it would clearly favor collosus play and not the robo-twilight we see a lot of now
User was warned for too many mimes.
Blazinghand *
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States25550 Posts
October 16 2011 11:51 GMT
#26
Did some playtesting on this map. It's quite pretty, and I like the innovative design elements in it and the "2 natural expansions" deal. A few thoughts:
  • The high ground in the main can be walled with 2 2x2 or 1 2x2 and 1 3x3 building-- which means terran can wall off with just a depot + rax, denying early scouting quite effectively.
  • The ramps into the nats, as you know are blockable by 2x2 buildings. There's some potential for abuse with autoturrets there, but not any worse than a normal ramp.
  • I don't like the high grounds near the nats-- seems a lot like Tal'Darim Altar minus the need for a high-ground spotter. The ability to deny a nat that way expands the strength of builds like 1/1/1 in TvP and fast tank pushes in TvZ. In TvT it could also be an issue, but such is the nature of TvT.
  • The 3:00 and 9:00 golds have room in between the minerals for marines to move. The 12:00 and 6:00 golds do not-- and if you build turrets, you can completely block off access to the high ground. There's not much room behind the min lines, which is understandable, but the fact that there's more or less ability to have AA depending on which of the golds it is is a problem. Consider bringing the minerals closer together or further apart on the expos so the ability to move marines around is the same at each gold base.


Here's me talking through my playthrough of this map against an easy AI: http://www.twitch.tv/blazinghand/b/297605811

I think I've included everything in that video in written form here. I think this map is pretty cool and look fowards to more maps from you, and more improvements to this map.
When you stare into the iCCup, the iCCup stares back.
TL+ Member
HypertonicHydroponic
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
437 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-10-17 04:29:22
October 17 2011 04:20 GMT
#27
@ blazinghand -- First of all happy birthday. Thank you for sharing it with me like this, although you should be the one getting presents.

I appreciate the thoughtful feedback, and especially the playtest video. That was very awesome of you to do! Although, I did have trouble making out everything you said in it because of the music/game sounds, you might need to turn up your mic a bit. I will have to listen to it again later to try and catch some of what you said.

I will have to think about these points in more depth, but I'd like to offer my initial reactions:

~ T wall-off -- while it is the case that T can wall-off as you mention (and there are other configurations than the one that you used in video) it is also the case that P could do the same sort of thing. And as mentioned earlier in this thread there was concern about P's forge fast expand not being viable, to which I posted pictures demonstrating a method to fast expand, but it depends on the ability to block off the ramp with a single 2x2 building (which means that at the very least T or P could fully wall with just 2 depots or pylons). Do you think that the solution to fix T's 2-building wall off is worth sacrificing P's FFE? (I ask this from a balance perspective, and not T's perspective of course.) This is in case I cannot come up with another way to arrange this to allow a FFE and require a 3 building T wall.

~ Does the fact that most ranged units can hit most of the top of the ramp (thus having the potential to kill off sieging units without having to leave the nat) not even this ledge out a bit? I was trying to make the nat a good mix of safe and attackable to balance out the fact that there are two right there. I'm pretty sure spines/cannons can hit all of the high ground part where vision is gained.

~ I lol'ed a bit in the video where you mentioned the positional imbalance here, because to me (maybe I'm the only one) it is infuriating that you cannot rotate minerals to "completely" balance the symmetry of the map. So I tried to balance the mining time of the differences of the golds above all. But you are right, they are slightly different since each patch *must* be 2x1 horizontally. I will have to think about how to fix this and keep the symmetry as close as possible, but do you think this is something that will really break the map? My thought is that in general, in a 1v1, each race will likely take an opposing gold, and that as such they are balanced since they each will have to deal with the same manueverability issues. Maybe in cross positions the two sides might wind up expanding toward adjacent golds, but if there is a known positional advantage to going to one of the golds over the other, it seems like that would be the one even cross positions would be likely to go to first. So in that way, there may not be a problem really -- what do you think?

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

On October 16 2011 14:13 docvoc wrote:
i don't see how one could attack with melee units on this map, their are so many chokes and no open areas it seems like. There is a lot going on here and it seems like some of the holes could be take away like maybe 1/2 going diagonally are holes and the other 1/2 is peidmonts. I just don't see a clear way to use archon/ht/zealot here. PvP this would be a nightmare it seems like because it would clearly favor collosus play and not the robo-twilight we see a lot of now

Have you tried this out (the map, the tactics)? I suggest you please do, because a diamond zerg friend of mine was thinking the opposite concerning lings. He thought there were not enough chokes for P to funnel zerg into and that it would make it very Z favored since you could easily surround with lings. His though was to actually add holes or "pillars" instead of just ramps which is the opposite of your suggestion it seems.
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Blazinghand *
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States25550 Posts
October 17 2011 06:27 GMT
#28
Hey, sorry for the sound balance on the video. I'm still trying to work my microphone stuff out.

As far as the wall thing goes, I get that protoss needs an easy way to wall out the other natural when they FFE-- but I don't know the solution to that. As far as the 2-building main wallin goes, it's much more viable for terran because you can lower the depot or raise the rax; protoss has no equivalent solution. I'm not really sure how to solve the FFE problem D:

Being able to shoot units on the ramp is cool, but again, this is something that's possible on tal'darim altar as well-- the defender on the high ground can always shoot down, and this is still a problem. It might be possible that the naturals are already vulnerable enough with the "2 nat chokes" as it is.

Yeah the lack of mineral rotation is lame D: I feel like if you spread out the minerals or arched them a little more on the 12:00 and 6:00, just enough to allow a square for marines to walk through, that would solve the problem. It might not even factor in in regular play-- I haven't played enough games on the map to know if the difference between 12/6 and 3/9 has an impact.
When you stare into the iCCup, the iCCup stares back.
TL+ Member
Callynn
Profile Joined December 2010
Netherlands917 Posts
October 17 2011 09:37 GMT
#29
I wish there would be a tester community that comments on melee maps with constructive feedback vocally on all maps posted here

Pity I can't play this map, because I am EU. =(
Comparing BW with SCII is like comparing a beautiful three-master sailing ship with a modern battlecruiser. Both are beautiful in their own way, both perform the same task, but they are worlds apart in how they are built and how they are steered.
Hassybaby
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United Kingdom10823 Posts
October 17 2011 09:45 GMT
#30
On October 15 2011 15:25 HypertonicHydroponic wrote:
@ Hassybaby -- I misread this one before, but once I understood what you were saying I literally lol'ed. I think I'd have to shower with my clothes on in *that* bathroom! Ain't the hot water give'n me shivers, if ya know what I mean.



Holy crap, I just saw the beauty shots...ok I take it back, I don't want that as a tile
"These guys are mindfucking me into a sex coma" | "Mayonnaise is a must-have lubricant when performing necrophilia"
RubiksCube
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
Germany259 Posts
October 17 2011 10:50 GMT
#31
Something pirate or death related would be great for a name.

(4)Dead Man Laughing
(4)Death Valley
(4)Jolly Roger
Blazinghand *
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States25550 Posts
October 17 2011 11:17 GMT
#32
After thinking about it a bit, shifting all the gold minlines (including gasses and rocks) 1 square away from the edge, actually, might solve the minline AA problem, since there will be more room behind for turrets or marines.
When you stare into the iCCup, the iCCup stares back.
TL+ Member
HypertonicHydroponic
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
437 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-10-18 03:52:45
October 18 2011 03:48 GMT
#33
@ Blazinghand -- I've been thinking about the wall in, and I think I can force a three building (2 supply/rax) wall in on the high ground without ruining the pathing of that area. And technically, Protoss is still able to FFE because they can still pylon at the bottom of the ramp of the opposite side. However, this still doesn't technically stop T from fully walling in with just two buildings because I think they could simply follow suit and build the depot/rax to block the low ground part of the ramp instead of on the high ground. Now, this adds a bit more risk to it because it does not have the added advantage of being on the high ground and thus is more susceptible to pressure. On the other hand, technically, you still have the same problem you are referring to where T can block scouting more easily. So, at the moment, I'd like to see how the map plays out a bit more in this regard before making any changes, especially, since I still do not see a way to keep the FFE ability while preventing a T two building block.

As far as the ramp (tooth) goes, would you say that the problem is the vision it yields or the siegability of the nat primarily (or is it the combination)? If it is the easy vision, I can simply lose the ramp and lower that patch of ground or something. If it is the siege, then I need to do something completely different with that section so that siege isn't as strong. The problem then, in my mind, though, is that it becomes much more difficult (in theory) to harass the either or both of the two naturals, at least by ground. As it is already fairly easy to take both (even if it means expanding toward your opponent), I was trying to avoid the three base play being too safely able to turtle, as I mentioned. Even though there are the two nat chokes, once you have both bases established, you still only have to worry about two chokes, which can both be walled fairly easily. What I've been thinking about as a potential fix, depending on what you think is the real problem (vision vs siege) is extending the natrual to wrap around the ramp a bit more so that the entire ramp can be surrounded which reduces siege area that can hit the natural to just the ramp, and allows for a certain level of defense without having to leave the base. Maybe this is a better mix of attack/defendability?

About the golds, yeah, I was thinking the same thing after looking at it a bit, I think I can simply move the minerals up a square on both sides and it should be fine, although, the 6/12 will still have solid minerals whereas the 3/9 will have gaps. There is a way to remedy that easily, but I'm not sure the mineral formation I'm thinking of is considered a "Blizz standard" even though I think it still has the same mining time/distance.

Do you think you might be able to play an actual game on this with your friend like you did on my other map? i hate to say it, but I think the Very Easy computer had you outmatched. Also, I've been wondering, most of your comments have been T/P related, my friend who is a diamond zerg thought my maps were very zerg favored, do you have any thoughts on that?

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

@ Callynn -- I'd love to let you play this on EU. The map contest mentions something about the maps being published on NA and EU near the end of the contest for play testing but that might only be the finalists or the ones for the tournament... I'll have to go back and look at that again. Anyway, in lieu of that maybe we could do some sort of temporary publishing exchange. You can PM me if that interests you.
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HypertonicHydroponic
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
437 Posts
October 19 2011 03:04 GMT
#34
OP updated, added analyzer images.
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Xenocryst
Profile Joined December 2010
United States521 Posts
October 19 2011 03:07 GMT
#35
very strange map
HypertonicHydroponic
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
437 Posts
October 20 2011 06:24 GMT
#36
Version 1.3 uploaded to NA.
Changes:
~ Main choke added pathable but unbuildable doodads to force 3 building terran wall-off (protoss ffe still possible with pylon blocking bottom of ramp)
~ Modified natural spotting ramp to 1 diagonal width from 2 allowing for range 6 units to hit the entire ramp to pick off spotters, range 5 can hit large units anywhere on ramp.
~ High ground added at natural spotting ramp for overlord (unpathable)
~ High ground added between naturals in middle for overloard (pathable)
~ Gold base resources moved toward center 1 tile and mineral pattern modified to allow for better and more even pathing despite mineral shape based asymmetry
~ Natural extended slightly around spotting ramp to allow better defensive coverage of siege spotter
~ Natural resources moved toward center one tile (so north if in south, etc.) to accommodate boundary resizing
~ Natural terrain at back edge moved in one tile
~ Playable bounds resized back to 150x150 from 152x152 now that the correct playable/buildable area of the naturals has been fixed
~ Re-textured relevant modified terrain

[image loading]

OP edit will come as soon...
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Blazinghand *
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States25550 Posts
October 20 2011 06:54 GMT
#37
On October 20 2011 15:24 HypertonicHydroponic wrote:
Version 1.3 uploaded to NA.
Changes:
~ Main choke added pathable but unbuildable doodads to force 3 building terran wall-off (protoss ffe still possible with pylon blocking bottom of ramp)
~ Modified natural spotting ramp to 1 diagonal width from 2 allowing for range 6 units to hit the entire ramp to pick off spotters, range 5 can hit large units anywhere on ramp.

These two changes are excellent and should be great for TvX on this map :D



~ Gold base resources moved toward center 1 tile and mineral pattern modified to allow for better and more even pathing despite mineral shape based asymmetry

I'll go test this out. sounds like the problems have been fixed though.

I'll get some people together to test this map a little later today or tomorrow.
When you stare into the iCCup, the iCCup stares back.
TL+ Member
Blazinghand *
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States25550 Posts
October 23 2011 11:25 GMT
#38
Hi HypertonicHydroponic,
I did some playtesting on this map, mostly trying to figure out if there are problems with the double-natural situation.

Replays:
http://drop.sc/46575
http://drop.sc/46576

VoD:
My stream stopped working due to internet issues around this time ._.

Findings:
Basically, I think the ramps at the front of the naturals need to be slightly re-shaped due to "sweet spotting" and also the need to not actually have a shared ramp.

Here's a classic example of a Sweet Spot:
[image loading]
On Blistering Sands, the attacker was able to outmaneuver a similar-speed defending army because of the shape of the area between the two chokes. This was, in a word, pretty lame, and was part of the reason Blistering Sands was generally disliked.

This is not a problem for 2 base play on your map:
[image loading]


But, once both naturals have been taken, there is a Sweet Spot.
[image loading]

Generally, maps take two routes regarding third bases-- some thirds, like the Xel'Naga caverns gold third, are along existing attack routes. Other maps, like Typhon Peaks, Tal'Darim Altar, or the old Bel'shir Beach, have thirds that don't occupy the primary exit to the Natural:
[image loading]

Your map falls into this latter category. The big thing worth noting is that on these maps, although the thirds are generally attackable, it's slightly easier for the defender to get into position to defend them than attack them. Typhon Peaks is a little different with the vulnerability low-ground third, but the rocks blocking the path in as well as the general "closedness" of the third make it a bit safer.

The main rule is that the third base should be more accessable to a defending army than an attacking army. On a map with a "double natural" this is a unique challenge, since you can't have a shared choke for the double nat, since that would make certain openings (Forge FE and its ilk) unbelievably strong for taking quick thirds without worrying about any pressure.

The alternative, that each natural have a choke, is superior, but you have to watch out for what happens on 3 base play with the possibility of a mobile attacking army. Although the obvious solution is to put your own defending forces in the sweet spot, this is a dangerous proposition given the fact that it's on the low-ground, since the naturals are on a high-ground.

My thought would be to rotate the ramps away from each other, rather than towards each other, to increase the attacker choke-to-choke distance a little, or maybe have a destructable rock splitting the main ramp down into the two naturals in two or something, to make it a bit more defensible. Not sure though-- this will have to be your call.
When you stare into the iCCup, the iCCup stares back.
TL+ Member
HypertonicHydroponic
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
437 Posts
October 23 2011 19:01 GMT
#39
@ Blaizinghand -- Thanks again, for play testing one of my maps.

I watched the replays, but unless I'm missing something, they each seemed a little like one player just wasn't prepared in some manner or another. The zerg player seemed like his economy could have supported many more units much more quickly against you in the first game. And in the second game, the protoss player just seemed to give things away with an Artosis pylon. If there was more nuance than that which indicates a flaw of the map you would have to explain it to me.

Neither of the replays particularly seemed to demonstrate the point you are making above about the sweet spot. I thought that the I would see it in the attack you made between the naturals, but it seemed like the zerg player just didn't have enough regardless of which way you attacked initially or decided to continue the attack (that is, into the main or the other natural).

One of the big reasons I have my ramps facing the way they do has to do with the rush distance. If I were to face them away from each other, the rush distance through the gold base area would be that much faster, which may prove to be too fast. Plus, in it's current positioning, enemy untis coming through the gold area can be bombarded as they wrap around the edge of the mid-ground formation. Swinging the ramp around, even to a 45 degree angle, loses some of this defensibility.

Secondly, even though the "sweet spot" can certainly favor the enemy to a degree, I think it is much more circumstantial than on a map like blistering sands. The "sweet spot" there was bad too be sure, but there were three things that made it different and much more abhorent than my configuration:

1) The back door was actually closer to the enemy's resupply line which means that a backdoor attack was actually somewhat more deadly than an assault on the natural.

2) The sweet spot was generally not very scoutable. It was quite difficult to determine the intention of the enemy army's movements, and so even if you were to stick your army directly in the middle of the route between the natural choke and the backdoor (i.e. somewhere near the top of your ramp in the main) your opponent was almost garaunteed to do *some* damage because you would at least have to move into place to defend.

3) The distance of the sweet spot was generally not short enough to be used as a flanking opportunity.

Also, and I'm not sure this couldn't be a fourth point, but this "sweet spot" has to do with the nat-to-third, and not the main-to-nat. And seeing how the third in most cases on this map is also going to be a technical natural as well, whatever disadvantage comes from this sweet spot should probably be counterbalanced by the fact that it is a little more safe in general than most thirds.

Now in counterpoint:

1) While the natural that is the backdoor will technically be closer to the enemy resupply route, it is not also directly into the main, it is an expansion. While losing an expansion is never fun and may certainly herald the end of the game, it is by no means as devestating as losing the main (in most cases).

2) The route between the two natruals is very visible from both naturals as well as the main choke area to a degree. It is not very difficult to see whether the attack is going to continue on the opposite side or if the enemy is in retreat.

3) The slightly short distance between the naturals can be used defensively for flanks and as such is not simply a tool of the enemy. While it may not be the most ideal to have a split army, a flank from behind cutting off an attacking army's retreat can wind up being a huge boon to the defender in what would have otherwise been most certainly a loss of some kind.

If the ramps are turned away from each other, you shorten the rush distance and lose the potential for a defensive sweet spot. So as far as your two solutions go, I am more inclined to go with a rock-based solution. But I will have to think about that a little more, because I'm not sure I like the idea of shrinking that low ground area and allowing a third/"more direct" path between the two naturals.
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