A 1v1 rotationally symmetrical map with 4 starting bases. I had four goals for this map: 1) Make it my most balanced work yet 2) Make it my most detail map in terms of textures/doodads 3) Attempt to remove the typical 4-base rotational issues 4) Win MotM #8 and get it into a tournament map pool
I feel I've accomplished 1 and 2 (Thanks to monitor for your help in correcting some layout issues). Item #3 is debatable when you look at a map like Sanctuarium. Item #4, well we'll just have to wait and see how I do.
Side Note: There are a few secret messages around the map. If you can determine all 3 of them and PM me with the right answers, you'll win a nice little prize...
P.S. iGrok, I'm going to be upset if this doesn't meet next months criteria ;p
Map Info: Size: 144x144 playable Bases: 4 mains, 8 full expansions, 4 single gas expansions Xel'Naga Towers: 4 Available for Play: NA Tileset: + Show Spoiler +
Castanar Mesh Braxis Alpha Plates Castanar Grating Port Zion Tiles Castanar Metal Monlyth Dirt Braxis Alpha Metal Detail
Avernus Manmade Cliffs Braxis Alpha Skybox/Parallax Port Zion Ambience Ulnar Lighting
-removed terrain "spikes" near the middle -moved several LOS blockers around the edges to more functional areas -moved several other doodads. -fixed minerals in main bases so probes can more easily move behind them.
As you can tell below, any of the small raised areas around the map that are largely covered in doodads have been no-pathed. Seige tanks on the low ground cannot hit the minerals lines of the counter-clockwise natural, but can hit just a tad bit of the wall-in at the natural choke.
Now that I see these pictures up online, I'm disappointed with their quality. My computer is old as dirt at 4 years old and will hopefully be replaced soon. There's a lot more detail to the map than I think the pics above show.
I've gotten to play a few games of it online now and it's quite fun. I don't consider the project 100% complete as it still needs further testing, so please leave some feedback!
Quick iGrok, make MotM #8 require shifted symmetry! Seriously though, nice work! My only complaint is that the main-nat-third set-up is bland and very common. Also, the map seems pretty chokey, particularly in the center. Although it is possible that the middle setup will provide interesting battles, flanks seem very difficult and slow pushes seem very strong.
I won't comment on any balance issues because I'd rather play on it first before I do that (I'm on my laptop atm which doesn't have sc2 installed, so I'll probably try it out tomorrow) but I think I would like if you added some more texture variety to the map. The textures are done well but I feel like the ground itself all looks the same no matter where you go. Why not changing up the lowest ground bases to a rocky ground (think Odysses for instance) to make some certain points in this map "pop" out more to the player.
Then again, it might look amazing ingame and just the overview makes it look like it all blurs together. If that's the case, ignore this post and I'll comment on it tomorrow when I actually get some time to play on it.
Personally I'm hoping for 5 player maps this time so everyone's map will be bad and I will have a shot. Really good job though. Does seem somewhat chokey but its really well done.
On July 28 2011 23:49 Holiver wrote: Spoiler Pyramid ftw... NOPE!
Map looks good, buddy.
What floating islands are you referring to, MDKnights23?
Like areas on the edge of maps where units can't be. I'm talking about like the holes in the middle of the maps, and the edges of maps like delta quadrant. Thanks!
On July 28 2011 23:49 Holiver wrote: Spoiler Pyramid ftw... NOPE!
Map looks good, buddy.
What floating islands are you referring to, MDKnights23?
Like areas on the edge of maps where units can't be. I'm talking about like the holes in the middle of the maps, and the edges of maps like delta quadrant. Thanks!
Open a new map of either Avernus or Braxis Alpha. Under the Terrain height tab, select the "down" tool. Click anywhere on the map. Simple as that. Flop Turn had it right above
That middle... a bit of a tower cluster going on there, I hope you put a lot of thought into that.
Overall solid map with nice, solid texturing. It will probably play out well. But nothing really interesting unfortunately I think since Crevasse/Tal'Darim/Terminus are so dominant in tournaments for so long now, new big 4spawn rotational maps have to do something really interesting to be worth it, like Ithaca, Green Harvest, Katrina, Othello etc
On July 29 2011 08:28 Barrin wrote: The minerals at top right and bottom left have 7 mineral patches touching each other so nothing can walk through them (unlike the top left and bottom right). This makes SCV's have a much harder time starting to repair a missile turret that might be placed back there. It also lessens the potential of micro'ing a zealot (with stalkers behind it) or a marine (with more marines/marauders behind it) between the minerals to "filter-AI" zerglings into them (not allowing this lessens skill ceiling IMO).
The 5th bases seem to have 9 mineral fields BTW.
The map was built off a 4 base model, so when you refer to the 5th bases I don't know what you mean. Regardless, there are no bases on the map with 9 mineral fields
And those 4 watch towers are awfully close to each other (but I can tell they were carefully placed ^_^).
At first I wasn't really convinced that the rotational imbalance was gone at all in this map. But as I was writing #2 in the following I started to see that you actually did do #2 to a pretty good extent. But it is still flawed (in the late game)
There are pretty much 3 main ways to deal with rotational imbalance (they can be used in conjunction with each other). (1) Make the third base have less resources (possibly as little as 5 minerals 1 gas). It's really more effective on a style of 12base 4p rotational (and wouldn't really help on this map). (2) Manipulate the layout, openness, distances, and/or vulnerabilities in such a way that the expansion layout is roughly equal (all things considered) for either position, even though it is rotational symmetry. (3) Let one player have an easier to take third while letting the other player have an easier 4th and 5th.
I wouldn't suggest changing resource count in this map. And this map definitely doesn't fall under #3. You actually did #2 better than I thought at first... but I have a concern for the late game. Well, the first 5 bases are actually roughly equal and that is rather impressive. But someone spawning at 4 o'clock has an easier 6th, 7th, AND 8th base than someone spawning at 8 o'clock (etc.). I guess this adds the "flavor" where the 8 o'clock position will want to be more aggressive and/or focus more on map control, I just can't really say I'm a complete fan of it here
Overall this map is quite good, though
I appreciate the feedback. I'll definitely correct the mineral field issue, I tested it last night and it absolutely will not do.
As for the late late-game expansion topic you're right, though that's one of those areas that's extremely difficult to eliminate from 4base rotational maps. Unfortunately, I think the only way to truly correct the recurring issues (that you pointed out) in 4base rotationals is to make them cross-spawn only, and I'm not willing to take that step and make the map that predictable.
Ragoo wrote:That middle... a bit of a tower cluster going on there, I hope you put a lot of thought into that.
Overall solid map with nice, solid texturing. It will probably play out well. But nothing really interesting unfortunately I think since Crevasse/Tal'Darim/Terminus are so dominant in tournaments for so long now, new big 4spawn rotational maps have to do something really interesting to be worth it, like Ithaca, Green Harvest, Katrina, Othello etc
The Towers in the middle were placed very carefully. Take the top left tower for example. If a player holds the top right or bottom left tower, they can't see whether the top left tower is being held based on tower animation, but if the player holding the top left tower had its unit on the bottom side of the tower, it would be revealed. Make sense?
I kept looking at different tower configurations of 1, 2, 3 and 4. Four seems to be the number that keeps things balanced based on spawn locations and still shows a more worthwhile portion of the map. If I remember right, 1 tower only covered like 10.5% of the total map
After further review for the last week, I think I'm going to remove the terrain "spikes" and light doodads in the middle to open it up some more. With the LOS blockers in the middle, it's key to hold as many towers as possible as the area does feel tighter if you don't. I'm also going to add some additional LOS blockers in certain areas.
Thanks for all your feedback community! Please keep it coming!
*Edit: Typo
Oh, and as an announcement of my next project, a map theme based off the creepiest game I've ever played, Doom 3...
was there any positional imbalance spottet regarding the thirds in close position? I think the clockwise position might have a good advantage due to ramps and xwt coverage, cause the ccw-position expanding away has to take a low ground third or a harder to cover (xwt) entry into a cw third.
it is alsways a bit like that with every rotational map. nothing severe. just a thought: maybe change the towers and open up the middle.
Seriously though, winning MotM is hard. Not that I've ever made a valid submission (I really think we should have 1-2 more days to submit, 4 days seems short), but the competition. This map is very good. There is no denying it. But it's very standard-seeming, it's aesthetics are plain and standard (good though), and the layout is nothing new. However, it's solid enough that it will probably make top 5.
Update: -corrected some mineral line issues with probes being able to move more freely. -opened up middle terrain areas by removing terrain spikes -moved LOS blockers to more easily usable areas -submitted for MotM #8, wish me luck!
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I think since Crevasse/Tal'Darim/Terminus are so dominant in tournaments for so long now, new big 4spawn rotational maps have to do something really interesting to be worth it, like Ithaca, Green Harvest, Katrina, Othello etc
