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[M] (4) Core Delta - Page 2

Forum Index > SC2 Maps & Custom Games
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Walls
Profile Joined May 2011
United States172 Posts
May 22 2011 16:59 GMT
#21
thanks for the effort you put in this map, but I would like to see less and less of rotational symmetric maps as they improve the effect of luck on the game and that is never a good thing.
SlayerS_Eve's third fan, in the time of hatred... very very proud of that.
Meltage
Profile Joined October 2010
Germany613 Posts
May 22 2011 22:14 GMT
#22
@Walls - thats noted, although I belieeve that ppl say that beacuse of a principle rather than having their own experience backing up. There are many cases when rotational symetry scr*ws up close position spawns. The idea is to keep the map as well balanced as possible regardless of spawns BUT still a different game in all spawn possibilities - the benefits of rotational symetry. That's why there are two possible thirds on this map, so that you can alsways choose the one that suits you best depending on player spawns.
http://mentalbalans.se/aggedesign
Exstasy
Profile Joined August 2010
United Kingdom393 Posts
May 22 2011 22:29 GMT
#23
Loving this!, please don't chamnge the natural layout, it's fine, and definately don't add destructible rocks, 4th bases are good!

great job!
Gfire
Profile Joined March 2011
United States1699 Posts
May 22 2011 22:37 GMT
#24
I agree with walls that there is no need to have a rotational spawn map... There really are few benefits other than making it easier for the mapper, when it comes to having equal rush distances in all positions and such. I sure hope they are phased out of map pools in the future.

I don't really like how there is only a tiny gap on those small ramp areas... I'd rather you could bring a larger group through there, more like on backwater gulch. Especially with rocks in the central area, the pathing is really restricted. On backwater gulch if you have a small force it is easy to go across it but here it's almost never useful, and it's almost always faster to go around.

all's fair in love and melodies
Meltage
Profile Joined October 2010
Germany613 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-05-25 07:31:56
May 23 2011 08:23 GMT
#25
@Exstasy Thanks, cool. Why shoudl I not add destructible rocks? do you mean those in the centre? What is it you like about the 4th bases?
I'll probably won't add that small ramp and rocks to the nat, unless players feel the nat is too safe... can a nat be too safe?


@Gfire - That there are few benefits to rotational symetry is not really an argument. Big imbalances beacuse of base layout and such are. Smaller imbalances, some says matters so little, it just demands more skill from the players to adapt. SC2 is still a game with 3 distinct races with balance ever shifting. You could look at a map the same way you look at the races. Different makes more fun, as long as it as balanced as possible, right? Well, that's what I think is worth pursuing here and what I want to achieve with every feature.

Thanks for your feedback on the high ground. I supose Backwater Gulch is a valid comparision, but is it a good example of how it should be made? Some would say T and P are imba on that map beacuse of the narrow areas around the nat AND beacuse of that high ground by the third. I thought I rather make a narrow path on high ground that making a hole or a wall, in this case. That it won't be used much is OK I think - it's far better than being abused

Are the destructible rocks by the centre really restricting movement? I mean, you can break them - if they are in the way, well thats how rocks should be used - they shoudl be in the way so you have a good reason to destroy them. The XNT can see if any of the rocks are being destroyed (one feature encourages the use of another feature). Also, the rocks being there encourages players to use the middle more and the shortest path cross positions goes through the middle early game, but once the rocks are destroyed you prob use that path instead.
http://mentalbalans.se/aggedesign
Meltage
Profile Joined October 2010
Germany613 Posts
June 06 2011 09:45 GMT
#26
Update:

- Remade tileset. Aesthetics are about 40% done (texturing and doodads).

- Added a bunch of DSRs to middle (blocking the shortest path)

- Added a DSR backdoor to the nat.

All points open for feedback and discussion, of course. Nothing is set in stone.

BTW - the lack of respne is disturbing (see my wall of text the rprev post).
I really want feedback and I don't expect wall-of-text replies, just some elaboration on the topics.
http://mentalbalans.se/aggedesign
Zaphid
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Czech Republic1860 Posts
June 06 2011 10:59 GMT
#27
This is as pretty as some of those GSL maps, real props for that, really nice on the eye
I will never ever play Mech against Protoss. - MVP
Gfire
Profile Joined March 2011
United States1699 Posts
June 06 2011 14:27 GMT
#28
I think you could open up the data editor and change those cliffs so they are ground cliffs and not space cliffs, so you wouldn't have to use all the rocks to cover everything up.
all's fair in love and melodies
Meltage
Profile Joined October 2010
Germany613 Posts
June 06 2011 14:53 GMT
#29
@Gfire - That's possible? Thanks.. how do you change cliffs in Data?
http://mentalbalans.se/aggedesign
Gfire
Profile Joined March 2011
United States1699 Posts
June 06 2011 15:38 GMT
#30
Well, I haven't tried that exact thing. I'm not sure if it's tied to the model or what, I'm sure it's possible but I don't know how deep you have to go to do it.

You can use the data types Terrain Cliff and Terrain Cliff Mesh

From viewing the models, it doesn't seem to be tied to that, so it should be able to be done in the editor, but I haven't yet figured out how.
all's fair in love and melodies
Qegixar
Profile Joined May 2011
United States46 Posts
June 06 2011 18:26 GMT
#31
I noticed that the map analyzer says that every base has 2.5K resources instead of 17.0K, is this a glitch with the analyzer?

Also, to get natural cliffs, use the "same level cliff" tool and make sure that natural cliffs are selected instead of man-made cliffs. By default, the editor does not allow the two types of cliff to touch each other, but if you go to tools->brush->allow cliff merging, this restriction will be removed.
Meltage
Profile Joined October 2010
Germany613 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-06-06 20:39:45
June 06 2011 20:36 GMT
#32
@Qegixar - no idea why the analyser says more resoruces. But I'll double check those, thanks!
It's not the natural cliffs I want, but the avernus manmade cliffs are made for space (as low ground), not ground, so when painting it, there are holes in the ground were the cliffs rise from, as you can see on the overview image.
I havn't figured out how to change this and I rather cover the holes with doodads than changing into another manmade
http://mentalbalans.se/aggedesign
WniO
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States2706 Posts
June 06 2011 20:51 GMT
#33
ugh i dont like how theres a double ramp thing like how most maps are going.
Kinetik_Inferno
Profile Joined December 2010
United States1431 Posts
June 06 2011 21:46 GMT
#34
I feel that this map favors zerg a lot because the zerg can easily take his natural and his third without having to worry about backdoor entrances or openness. Also, the only places where a terran can be an asshole with tanks is on those designated places in the center, and there is no way that tanks can shoot mineral lines freely.

On another note it needs about 8 more destructible rocks blocking the expansions before it's blizzard enough to be worthy of the map pool.
WarSame
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
Canada1950 Posts
June 06 2011 22:52 GMT
#35
It looks great to me. It's a large map like TDA, but the chokes make it actually balanced for TvZ. The only real complaint I have is that the natural for the third should be slightly wider open. Other than that it looks sick. I'd definitely be willing to at least try it.
Can it be I stayed away too long? Did you miss these rhymes while I was gone?
WarSame
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
Canada1950 Posts
June 06 2011 22:53 GMT
#36
On May 23 2011 01:59 Walls wrote:
thanks for the effort you put in this map, but I would like to see less and less of rotational symmetric maps as they improve the effect of luck on the game and that is never a good thing.

Rotational symmetry doesn't really affect it when the mains are at the corners of the maps. You would have the exact same with reflected anyways.
Can it be I stayed away too long? Did you miss these rhymes while I was gone?
Meltage
Profile Joined October 2010
Germany613 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-06-07 18:28:17
June 07 2011 18:24 GMT
#37
WhinO - not a valid argument, IMO Is it a good feature for this map or no? Why/why not?

Peterblue -
the natural for the third should be slightly wider open


I'm glad you like it and would try it. What is 'the natural for the third'? Do you mean the ramp between natural and third?

@ Kinetik_Inferno

I feel that this map favors zerg a lot because the zerg can easily take his natural and his third without having to worry about backdoor entrances or openness. Also, the only places where a terran can be an asshole with tanks is on those designated places in the center, and there is no way that tanks can shoot mineral lines freely.


I can't help but feeling this is not a thorough analysis of the map. There are features that favours T and P as well. Just analyse the map from those perspectives too. For instance, T has a lot of space behind mineral lines to drop, P have lots of places to proxy pylon. T and P are quite safe early game with small main and nat on higher ground, etc.

On the other hand, it is easy to make a map overbalanced for T by making the map too narrow or have too much high ground ... I'm avoiding that, and then it becomes easy to overdo it. Your points are certainly noted. Thanks!

On another note it needs about 8 more destructible rocks blocking the expansions before it's blizzard enough to be worthy of the map pool.


Please, would you like to elaborate on this? And I'm not even being sarcastic. Must I block all possible thirds to prevent fast 3 bases .. why? Is it really a good thing to 'make a map blizzard enough for ladder'?
http://mentalbalans.se/aggedesign
WniO
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States2706 Posts
June 07 2011 18:28 GMT
#38
oh very clever

every map doesnt need to be the same. that small of an entrance is just asking for macrofest 6 trillion and leaves no room for aggression.
Meltage
Profile Joined October 2010
Germany613 Posts
June 07 2011 21:40 GMT
#39
Stop whin(o)ing and be constructive, thanks
http://mentalbalans.se/aggedesign
WniO
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States2706 Posts
June 07 2011 21:52 GMT
#40
lower both the main and the nat so the main is on a cliff and the natural has a open choke instead of a ramp.
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