I think you're right in that the 2 base layout with DSR backdoor is booring, since it's so common on Bliz maps, but doesn't the nearby expansions (third and fourth) change this and make the map different?

A Z who has problem attacking a T or P on that ramp will simply get 3 or 4 bases and defend those quite easily, then prevail by numbers or air.

I've been suggesting crevasse style nat ramp (partly beacuse I'm afraid the DSR backdoor may be in favour for one player only in close positions), but ppl prefer the DSR backdoor.. I'm not sure why

WniO

United States2706 Posts

June 08 2011 21:21 GMT

#42

exactly! so basically what you're saying is that a zerg cant attack in there so the zerg is forced into playing a certain style. (macro fest)

im not trying to be negative nancy because overall the map is good its just i dont like ones that produce the same types of games over and over... like python or destination.

Meltage

Germany613 Posts

June 08 2011 21:36 GMT

#43

Yeah. But is it a bad thing to force the game into a three or four base game? I want to watch logner matches. Consider this map in a map pool where players choose maps... will Z discard this map beacuse there is disadvantage early game? Why, if the map is fine and maybe even advantageous once you move from two base play?

I'm mentally moving away from the backdoor. I see more pros than cons right now. What about Sanctuarium-style or Crevasse-style nat ramp layout? I'll keep lowering height levels an option (in the back of my head, before my eyes).

Edit: Sanctuarium nat ramp-layout:

+ Show Spoiler +

Sanctuarium, full:
+ Show Spoiler +

Meltage

Germany613 Posts

June 10 2011 23:21 GMT

#44

I've got a new suggestion on a feature. It's a reaper backdoor betwen one player's third and the other player's main. It goes along the shoet air distance path and allows siege tanks only to reach the area BEHIND the mineral line. Large utnis can only move in the part of the path that is closest to the main.

The high ground around the path is unpathable .. you can only drop on the path.

Meltage

Germany613 Posts

June 28 2011 20:28 GMT

#45

Planned change:

- left third closer to main, so that the forward choke and distances to nat ramp becomes about the same for both thirds. Also, the small high ground is bigger. Now you can hide a building on it and pass with a small army. Camping on it wont do much, though.

Do you like this change or no, and why?

New detail images, showing off each of the reaper backdoors. They go between the right hand third and the other player's main. Which one do you like best and why? Which one looks least appealing and why?

The other three:

+ Show Spoiler +

Also updated OP with new overview image. The lighting is wrong, though. Don't know what galaxy was thinking when extracting.

lefix

Germany1082 Posts

June 28 2011 22:23 GMT

#46

i'm liking the changes, improves the map balance alot, imho

Quotidian

Norway1937 Posts

June 28 2011 23:12 GMT

#47

it's a beautiful map. Makes me think of Alien, with the foggy lunar landscape. I have a feeling that it's simply too big for 1v1 though.

PandaBlunt

United States292 Posts

June 29 2011 00:19 GMT

#48

Looks very well done sir ^_^. Is this map going to be available on NA?

FallDownMarigold

United States3710 Posts

June 29 2011 00:53 GMT

#49

Could be a good map; however, I very much dislike the fact that the center is cluttered with chokes. Would be far better with more open space and less high ground/ramps/etc

Meltage

Germany613 Posts

June 29 2011 09:13 GMT

#50

@FallDownMarigold Thanks for the input, but could you be more specific? I read the centre as several choices of paths some mor enarrow than others, but in general its quite open and the middle pod is very wide. The map in general has a very open feel to it, and you need to diverse that with chokes to make it attractive for all races

@PandaBlunt - Thanks! Dont know yet, but it's likely!

@lefix thanks! Please elaborate

Samro225am

Germany982 Posts

June 29 2011 10:49 GMT

#51

did you try to move the tower strcture between the central cliff/ramps and the nat and third a bit more towards the base? i think there is a bit more space needed at the bottom end of the central ramps.

Meltage

Germany613 Posts

June 29 2011 19:24 GMT

#52

@Samro225am are you afriad an army will be trapped in between the high grounds, or why do you think there should be more space there?
The problem, is, if I alter that space, I also move the forward choke of the left possible third towards the base, which I believe is less good.

Randomaccount#77123

United States5003 Posts

June 29 2011 21:45 GMT

#53

--- Nuked ---

Chargelot

2275 Posts

June 30 2011 01:17 GMT

#54

This is a good looking map. If you need someone to host it on the US servers send me a PM, I'd gladly do it for you.

EatThePath

United States3943 Posts

June 30 2011 02:01 GMT

#55

Melt, I'm not sure what purpose the reaper path serves. Is that to balance reaper scouting time? Is it mainly for tank drops? Just a random spot that might or might not get used? Maybe I'm being stupid but please explain. =D

I think it's fine aesthetically and you should have them look different in each corner--some are dilapidated with rocky edges and some still have their metal sides with buildings on top, etc etc. One problem I have is that they are totally useless for getting blink stalkers into a main, and I think you should make them slightly less convoluted, aka slightly more open and direct, in order to facilitate a 2-phase blink pathway.

As for the map, I haven't checked it out for a while! I'm glad you're still working on it! I really like it, even though it still seems big.

I have a sick sick idea for an alternative to the DSR backdoor. I'm also growing tired of that trend an I think it should be avoided where possible. Honestly, I don't think this map needs it at all. There is plenty of incentive to just go down and take a rather safe 3rd. If a player wants to turtle at their natural... fine whatever, their loss, lol. SC2 will be less and less about the first ten minutes as strategy and execution continues to develop.

Anyway, you should have a slowly unobstructing backdoor. It's not blocked by rocks but some kind of obstruction that will be removed after a certain time period, say 10 minutes. This will be an immediate, binary change but you can make it appear like some sort of cool process has gradually occured, like flooding has finally drained, or a fire has burnt itself out, or a glowing wall of light has powered down, or a mechanical wall has been lowered.

This will help players see the progress of the event and know how soon until the door is open. You can even have text/audio messages display to warn about it.

I have very little experience playing with the data editor and a slightly better amount of experience using triggers, but I would love to work on this with you if you like the idea. Maybe we can get ihasaKAROT to help.

This is like the tower on Xel'Naga Fortress btw. We can spearhead trigger-based events in melee maps.

Meltage

Germany613 Posts

June 30 2011 08:54 GMT

#56

@Barrin - understand your general concern and appreciates it!

@Chargelot - Thanks, I'll think about it

@EatThePath - wow you're crazy

1. DSR timed backdoor - It's great that you want to, but I don't dare do anything like this for this map, at least not yet

Not sure how you would do that with the data editor (my knowledge is kinda limited), although I'm sure it can be done. The problem I see with the concept is that it takes control away from the players. Why not just have a DSR with higher HP than usual?
I wanted to do a Creavasse DSR nat ramp, but no one seems to like it. What if I made the ramp twice the size and added DSRs to each side of it. Then you could open your own in the direction of the third you choose, but if the enemy breaks them both down, you have a superwide ramp into your nat.

2. Reaper backdoor. Of course it helps reapers scout and not much else. Tanks can be dropped there, but only siege the area behind the mineral line. Beacuse of rotational symetry, I dont want to give one player to much of an advantage by using this feature, so blinking stalkers support is out, I think. I realize it's a feature that hardly will be used, although I like adding harrassing possibilities as much as possible. Rather have this backdoor than a gap.

Update

- Moved the left hand thirds and changed the high ground next to it, mostly according to the suggestion a few posts back (originally suggested by lefiix, thanks mate!). The possible third's distance to nat ramp and forward choke shoudl be more similar. Also, the small highg round is no longer so close to teh left hand third's CC placement. + Show Spoiler +

Lefix noticed that once on e had expanded there, the CC would prevent an army to move from nat to defend it effectively.

Close ups:

+ Show Spoiler +

- added 3 square big shelf for reapers/collossi between left hand third and main.
It allows for blinking stalkers or tank drops, but not very effectively. 3 squares limits it's use quite a lot, although it's a perfect collossi or reaper eleveator.

Meltage

Germany613 Posts

July 04 2011 12:23 GMT

#57

Reworked the right-hand thirds. Beacuse of rotational symetry and non-turnable mineral fields, they look different in horizontal and vertical bases. I found some good examples on bliz' Terminus and used those. Edit: realized thsoe were 7 minerals not 8! So now its a modded 8 patch-variant.

Here's pics with pathing and all

Left hand third

Horizontal

Vertical

I also filled some of the gap behind the mineral line with non-pathable high ground. Some love for mutas and the like.

Also, this map was submitted to MotM #7 . Wish it good luck, beacuse it's gonna need it. This month is crazy.

I've been working on aesthetics + Show Spoiler +

and made a logo for the thread. OP is updated.