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On January 11 2011 03:02 assajocuna wrote:
Woohoo~~
English version is getting a big update before the korean version. 2 new characters will be added soon.
Reason why is because there's a big tournament scheduled on this sunday. So Maxstorm can't update before the tournament is over. He is going to update at US and probably EU version first.
Abel + Arcane coming soon.
awesome cant wait :D
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very interesting map but realy fun
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On January 11 2011 01:39 Serejai wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2011 16:12 justjuice wrote:On January 10 2011 15:30 Serejai wrote:On January 10 2011 15:22 justjuice wrote:On January 10 2011 14:48 Serejai wrote:Since it's been mentioned in this thread, and I have a lot of pubs ask me in my games... here's a replay + rough guide for the Firebat guy. As for the guide part, you start the game like you should every hero by getting +1 ATK UP. This helps you farm the experience crates/trucks faster, which you'll be doing until level 3. Meanwhile, every level up just stick your points into ATK UP. Regardless of what hero you play, you should never really get anything other than ATK UP at the start. Spells are just too weak and too mana intensive to be worthwhile at this point. Once you get low on health or get 800 minerals, go heal and buy the +ATK upgrade. Back to laning until you get 750 minerals, then you want to buy the mana regen upgrade. Again, this applies to pretty much every hero in the game currently. This is by far the most beneficial opening for nearly all of them. From this point on you really need to play it by feel. If the opponent does a lot of damage, you should use your skill points on health. If not, use them on damage. You shouldn't really need anything but health and ATK UP the entire game. Speed isn't very useful for the Firebat due to his teleport+slow. Make sure to pick up his spells at some point... you can usually wait a while for these. Your vespene should go into +mana after you buy +ATK and +mana regen (first one). I would probably buy two +mana, then buy another +mana regen. You shouldn't need to buy health, but can if the other team has a lot of high damage mages. As for actually playing the character... he's pretty weak early game so just focus on farming. Late game he can pretty much instantly kill any mage, and take out most melee in seconds with minimal damage taken. Generally you're going to use your two flamethrower ability things (F and V, I think) from range. Then you teleport in (X) and spam C. You can toss in another V if you have the mana for it. This pretty much kills anything. If it doesn't and they run away, your teleport+snare is really overpowered and broken with it's low cooldown so you can spam it indefinitely and use C every time you land. I'm not sure what else to say... this character is really weak early game, but is an extremely fast leveler and completely dominates late game. It's overly simple to play and honestly borderline overpowered because of the spammable teleport+snare and spammable AOE. Oh, and one other thing that applies to any hero with towers. I can't count the number of kills I get by trapping somebody on a ledge with turrets/spinecrawlers/etc. Use them to control your opponent's movement and you will pretty much dominate high ground fights. As for the replay... this is a 51 minute game but I'd recommend watching it all on 2x at most with camera set to me. I make a lot of stupid mistakes as it's late and I'm tired, but I'm happy with the results. I ended the game something like 24-1 (died once to a lag spike) and was level 25 before anyone else was level 14. It turned into a 2v2 about halfway through, so my kill count is a tad low... both other times I've played as the Firebat I had nearly 30 kills at the end. Replay - http://www.mediafire.com/?y1ap0t45bfl99d5 5 into mana with first cash into mana pot or mana regen is much more powerful I don't entirely understand what you're suggesting but I'll take a shot; If you're suggesting to put your first 5 skill points into mana, that's a terrible idea. You don't need mana at all late game because you get more than enough from the shop upgrades, and you won't be able to max out health +ATK UP if you spend those 5 points on mana. Whatever possible gain you get at the start of the game from doing so is negated in the late game by your lower health or damage, and excess/wasted mana pool. Mana pots (and health) are also wasted income before late game, as that money is much better spent on permanently increasing your health or mana. If you play smart, you have very little risk of dying early game despite how weak the Firebat is. Not to mention without +ATK UP your damage will be too low to kill anyone (or anything - trucks and higher end creeps), so all the mana in the world wouldn't really help you. The idea is to kill someone within 3-4 casts. By going mana too early, it would take you twice as many spells and the Firebat is too fragile early-game to have the luxury of attacking for that long. You have to get in, do your damage, and get out ASAP as you have no defensive capabilities at all. Also, as said above make sure to use the splash damage. The Firebat has a range of 2, so you want to attack the creep behind the one you're trying to damage so you hit 2 rows at a time. Also note that the Firebat cannot attack while moving because of the attack animation. If you try your target will be out of range before the animation has a chance to go off. Sorry mate but with you're build you will not have any mana early and will get crushed early game in a non pub and will not be able to get kills mid game without mana pots Again, without +ATK UP at the start you won't do enough damage to kill anything, including experience crates/trucks. Doesn't matter how much mana you have. Not to mention you're wasting 5 stat points for late game, as you're unable to max health or ATK UP by putting those points into mana, which you will not need. While I'm doing something like 70 DPS at level 3 with my autoattack, plus having stim if needed... you're doing like 50 DPS with spells and relying on your mana to not run out. Firebat is a late game hero so gimping your late game AND early game both by going mana doesn't seem rational at all. I'm curious what your experience level is, though. I play on both the NA and KR servers and have been in a couple non-pub KR matches, and nobody has ever gone mana on Firebat.
Personally I haven`t played Firebat, but you`ll find that the 5 into mana early on is extremely important because 70 dps doesn`t mean anything when you`re going to have champions bursting you for 500+ a shot at lv 3.
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Everyone seems to overlook the fact that Firebat is a late game hero. You're not supposed to engage in the early game. Again, wasting five of your stat points on mana which you won't need at all late game (when your hero matters) instead of on health or damage (which you will need) is just a bad choice.
You won't be getting any early game kills if you go mana, and you'll be gimping yourself for the late game. In addition, you drastically slow down your crate/truck farming (which is all any class should be doing until level 3 anyway, as you will out level your lane opponent if they simply farm).
Mana may work for a few champs, but I've played about 80% of them so far and +ATK UP has always been superior on the ones I've used by far. Like... it's very noticeable.
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On January 11 2011 03:02 assajocuna wrote:
Woohoo~~
English version is getting a big update before the korean version. 2 new characters will be added soon.
Reason why is because there's a big tournament scheduled on this sunday. So Maxstorm can't update before the tournament is over. He is going to update at US and probably EU version first.
Abel + Arcane coming soon.
Oo, is Abel gonna be like the Street Fighter 4 Abel? If so that would be kick ass!
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So, the new version is out on NA. Arcane is rigged as hell. His ult basically does about 15k damage near-instantly to a radius the size of a pancake. I won't even get into his other abilities, or how insanely broken his autoattack is (150+ damage at level 3, line AOE... can wipe out an entire creep wave in mere seconds, plus damage the other player).
I'm about to try out Abel now, but the one in my last game seemed weak. Perhaps it's because I was literally 1v3ing and killing all three of them in one hit without taking any damage (did I mention Arcane has an ability to absorb all damage taken? That + Ult = guaranteed instant kill every time).
Anyway, it's really really broken and doesn't seem like the map maker tested this new hero at all before releasing it. Expecting (hoping) for a severe nerf ASAP. The game just isn't fun to play right now because of him.
Replay in case the new patch isn't up on EU yet - http://www.mediafire.com/?fsubqlby4mrhatb
I was afk/alt-tabbing a lot so I had some stupid deaths and some afk parts... and the last 5 minutes are just blank because I was afking again. But you can clearly see how ridiculous this hero is at the moment.
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On January 11 2011 06:57 Serejai wrote:
Everyone seems to overlook the fact that Firebat is a late game hero. You're not supposed to engage in the early game. Again, wasting five of your stat points on mana which you won't need at all late game (when your hero matters) instead of on health or damage (which you will need) is just a bad choice.
You won't be getting any early game kills if you go mana, and you'll be gimping yourself for the late game. In addition, you drastically slow down your crate/truck farming (which is all any class should be doing until level 3 anyway, as you will out level your lane opponent if they simply farm).
Mana may work for a few champs, but I've played about 80% of them so far and +ATK UP has always been superior on the ones I've used by far. Like... it's very noticeable. Hey man I watched the rep... I really tried to see where you were coming from but there are such huge flaws and it baffles me how you think that you can kill any competent player without mana and how you think getting mana will not help you get kills.
First of all with your build you are standing there for 20 secs killing a truck and hoping it wont get stolen by your opponent or even a jerk ally. Any good player with a nuke will look to steal it and it will be very easy to do so.
Second the players in your rep were obviously horrible and you used your headbutt and they stood there to let you kill them. Against good people they would obviously kite you and spam their nukes on you. They would use their mana pots and you would be dead at lvl 3 no question.
I've played with the korean developers of the map many times and they both advocate 5 points into mana unless you use a specialised build (3points in mana all atk etc) and I really do not see how this is a viable form of play but I'd like to see how you think that against competent players a no mana build would ever work where you've only got 75 mana at level 3. With a mana pot it would be incredibly easy to kill you and you would be using stimpack to fight back.
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On January 11 2011 11:49 justjuice wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2011 06:57 Serejai wrote:
Everyone seems to overlook the fact that Firebat is a late game hero. You're not supposed to engage in the early game. Again, wasting five of your stat points on mana which you won't need at all late game (when your hero matters) instead of on health or damage (which you will need) is just a bad choice.
You won't be getting any early game kills if you go mana, and you'll be gimping yourself for the late game. In addition, you drastically slow down your crate/truck farming (which is all any class should be doing until level 3 anyway, as you will out level your lane opponent if they simply farm).
Mana may work for a few champs, but I've played about 80% of them so far and +ATK UP has always been superior on the ones I've used by far. Like... it's very noticeable. Hey man I watched the rep... I really tryed to see where you were coming from but there are such huge flaws and it baffles me how you think that you can kill any competent player without mana and how you think getting mana will not help you get kills. First of all with your build you are standing there for 20 secs killing a truck and hoping it wont get stolen by your opponent or even a jerk ally. Any good player with a skill in a nuke will look to steal it and it will be very easy to do so. Second the players in your rep were obviously horrible and you used your spell and they stood there to let you kill them. Against good people they would obviously kite you and spam their nukes on you. They would use their mana pots and you would be dead at lvl 3 no question. I've played with the korean developers of the map many times and they both advocate 5 points into mana unless you use a specialised build (3points in mana all atk etc) and I really do not see how this is a viable form of play but I'd like to see how you think that against competent players a no mana build would ever work?
The same developers that let an insanely overpowered hero like Arcane into the game with little to no testing? You should take anything a game dev says with a grain of salt. Nearly all game devs are terrible at their own games.
Also, it's pretty much basic math and theorycrafting. You do not need +mana at all late game. You get more than enough from shop upgrades. Therefore, those five points you spend in mana stats are taking away 1500 health or a few hundred damage on your spells. Living through early game is extremely easy to do if you pay attention and don't try to engage. No hero can kill you by level 3 unless you're just playing really poorly (or if they're Arcane).
If somebody wants to waste points on mana and spend all of their income on mana pots, that's perfect. Not only will I be ahead of them in level AND income, but when it comes to late game I'll be ahead of them in stats, too.
As of now I've played the Firebat a total of 9 times, and I've played against a Firebat probably 4 or 5. Not once have I had any issues like you claim in your post, and neither have the Firebats I've played against. In fact, they all went +ATK UP, too. Most importantly of all, I have yet to lose a match with this setup and have only had three deaths total.
What it comes down to is that starting the game with +5 mana severly gimps your leveling capability and you'll end up being out leveled by your opponent. On top of that, Firebat simply cannot kill anyone early game because a) his skills are designed to be used in rapid succession, which you don't have the mana pool for and b) without any +ATK UP, your spells do too little damage to kill anyway. Firebat is a tank/support, NOT a nuker.
And most importantly of all, that mana does nothing to help your survivability. In fact, +ATK UP helps your survivability by leveling you quicker. Since Firebat has no defensive abilities, if you would get killed by stacking +ATK UP you would get killed even quicker by stacking +mana since your level would be lower and you can't do enough damage to get a kill anyway.
Will this setup work in the CoT World Championship? Who knows. But it's a guaranteed 100% win rate in public matches, and still better odds than going mana in an inhouse match.
You're welcome to upload some of your matches between yourself and the map devs, though. I'd love to see this +mana opening utilized correctly because the math shows it to be inferior in almost every way to +ATK UP openings.
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I think you two should add on friend list and play to see how effective both your builds are 
Either way, this is good seeing various builds and they way Serejai built his build was one of
the old LurCellant build where it optimized his amplying auto attack skill.
ATK up item + amply auto attack kill creeps, trucks in seconds. Never really thought of that
for Force Fire tho... he does have one of the best auto attack properties.
But once the level of play went up on korean pubs, this tactic had so many holes (last hit
stealing trucks with skills from watching what you do from watch tower), hitting from far
range to make you go back to restore center etc. But yeah if u play well it could work.
It just depends on how well you perform it, and who the opposing hero is.
I haven't tried out the new heroes but yeah they get patched instantly from feedbacks.
The first two weeks they are out, it's more like test period. Give me more feedbacks and
i'll tell to Max. I'll try out myself today too.
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On January 11 2011 12:07 Serejai wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2011 11:49 justjuice wrote:On January 11 2011 06:57 Serejai wrote:
Everyone seems to overlook the fact that Firebat is a late game hero. You're not supposed to engage in the early game. Again, wasting five of your stat points on mana which you won't need at all late game (when your hero matters) instead of on health or damage (which you will need) is just a bad choice.
You won't be getting any early game kills if you go mana, and you'll be gimping yourself for the late game. In addition, you drastically slow down your crate/truck farming (which is all any class should be doing until level 3 anyway, as you will out level your lane opponent if they simply farm).
Mana may work for a few champs, but I've played about 80% of them so far and +ATK UP has always been superior on the ones I've used by far. Like... it's very noticeable. Hey man I watched the rep... I really tryed to see where you were coming from but there are such huge flaws and it baffles me how you think that you can kill any competent player without mana and how you think getting mana will not help you get kills. First of all with your build you are standing there for 20 secs killing a truck and hoping it wont get stolen by your opponent or even a jerk ally. Any good player with a skill in a nuke will look to steal it and it will be very easy to do so. Second the players in your rep were obviously horrible and you used your spell and they stood there to let you kill them. Against good people they would obviously kite you and spam their nukes on you. They would use their mana pots and you would be dead at lvl 3 no question. I've played with the korean developers of the map many times and they both advocate 5 points into mana unless you use a specialised build (3points in mana all atk etc) and I really do not see how this is a viable form of play but I'd like to see how you think that against competent players a no mana build would ever work? The same developers that let an insanely overpowered hero like Arcane into the game with little to no testing? You should take anything a game dev says with a grain of salt. Nearly all game devs are terrible at their own games. Also, it's pretty much basic math and theorycrafting. You do not need +mana at all late game. You get more than enough from shop upgrades. Therefore, those five points you spend in mana stats are taking away 1500 health or a few hundred damage on your spells. Living through early game is extremely easy to do if you pay attention and don't try to engage. No hero can kill you by level 3 unless you're just playing really poorly (or if they're Arcane). If somebody wants to waste points on mana and spend all of their income on mana pots, that's perfect. Not only will I be ahead of them in level AND income, but when it comes to late game I'll be ahead of them in stats, too. As of now I've played the Firebat a total of 9 times, and I've played against a Firebat probably 4 or 5. Not once have I had any issues like you claim in your post, and neither have the Firebats I've played against. In fact, they all went +ATK UP, too. Most importantly of all, I have yet to lose a match with this setup and have only had three deaths total. What it comes down to is that starting the game with +5 mana severly gimps your leveling capability and you'll end up being out leveled by your opponent. On top of that, Firebat simply cannot kill anyone early game because a) his skills are designed to be used in rapid succession, which you don't have the mana pool for and b) without any +ATK UP, your spells do too little damage to kill anyway. Firebat is a tank/support, NOT a nuker. And most importantly of all, that mana does nothing to help your survivability. In fact, +ATK UP helps your survivability by leveling you quicker. Since Firebat has no defensive abilities, if you would get killed by stacking +ATK UP you would get killed even quicker by stacking +mana since your level would be lower and you can't do enough damage to get a kill anyway. Will this setup work in the CoT World Championship? Who knows. But it's a guaranteed 100% win rate in public matches, and still better odds than going mana in an inhouse match. You're welcome to upload some of your matches between yourself and the map devs, though. I'd love to see this +mana opening utilized correctly because the math shows it to be inferior in almost every way to +ATK UP openings. Hi my friends and I have tried going 3 medic all mana build to trap my pub enemies in forcefields to make them rage and we won the game "will this setup work in the CoT World Championship? Who knows. But it's a guaranteed 100% win rate in public matches, and still better odds than going mana in an inhouse match"
What I'm trying to say is, all you're arguments all seem to be based on you're experiences with what sounds like horrible players ie Hi I kill trucks at lvl 0 and I've never had problems with people in pub games using a nuke to steal the truck that I'm auto attacking in my games, these same people later lose to me 32-0 See where I'm going?
I'm really perplexed why you seem to be so confident in your strategy when it is afaik very unorthodox. Can I ask who you played with that went only attack and if you made sure that that was the case?
Also if you think that someone cannot kill a player at lvl 3 unless the other player is bad is just so horribly wrong. Any hero with a slowing nuke ultimate, mana pot and a decent build that adds mana will kill someone quite easily. Ulti mana pot nuke nuke.
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This game is so poorly balanced. Some heroes are just amazing (eg that new fire dude, Hades, Sylon) and some are just crap.
It's fun, but needs a serious look at balance.
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Arcane got nerfed now. We are testing more.
Sylon is bottom tier in hero fights. Hades is a little above average.
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On January 11 2011 13:28 assajocuna wrote:
Arcane got nerfed now. We are testing more.
Sylon is bottom tier in hero fights. Hades is a little above average.
ah, just observing what I've seen in pubs. Still, the game is poorly balanced.
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On January 11 2011 13:51 0mar wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2011 13:28 assajocuna wrote:
Arcane got nerfed now. We are testing more.
Sylon is bottom tier in hero fights. Hades is a little above average. ah, just observing what I've seen in pubs. Still, the game is poorly balanced.
Hi first of all this map is played in big tournaments in Korea this shows that there is obviously some amount of balance to the game. Second the mapmaker works very hard on the map to balance and make the game more fun, which he is doing. You're first post was proven completely untrue and so shows that you need a better understanding of the game and or need to be much more skilled to claim imbalance about the game. You're post not only is a empty one that provides nothing to the thread but undermines the effort that the mapmaker and his helpers such as Assajocuna are making in not only creating the map but also in bringing the map to foreigners in the US and EU servers.
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Thanks for this great map but I do find one major problem. Some characters, when using a skill, actually deselects your own character. I find this annoying because it makes skill chaining very hard.
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That happens when the skill u tried to do was on cool down. When you get used to it, it won't be a problem. I used to have that problem when i started playing the game, but after i played for few days, i never had that problem.
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On January 11 2011 16:27 assajocuna wrote:
That happens when the skill u tried to do was on cool down. When you get used to it, it won't be a problem. I used to have that problem when i started playing the game, but after i played for few days, i never had that problem.
Oh I see now. Thanks very much, this definitely helps
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Oh wow the new arcane hero is very strong 0.0
His autoattack can be used to farm and all his skills except curse have a huge range and damage... just his ultimate is enough to kill it seems
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would love to see this on SEA server, can anyone help? i've played in at NA server and its fun
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Arcane got nerfed once more. It should be pretty balanced now. His skills are strong but need more mana to perform now. The slow effect on ulti is shortened. His auto attack range shortened.
Ulti cooldown longer. Should be enough now.
Sorry we do not have any more plans for publishing on other servers.
Is there a way to just use one map and publish that same map to EU/US/KR and make the text come out in that client's language automatically? It's taking long time for Max to update every single one
of them.
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EPT
