EPTWGT12.2v2.29 - Page 2
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Twisted
Netherlands13554 Posts
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SoMuchBetter
Australia10606 Posts
his partner did a great job of holding them off until protoss was strong enough to defend himself (when the guards came) super sexy replay, keep 'em coming. | ||
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Yarertz
Djibouti1891 Posts
nice one hehe | ||
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8882
2718 Posts
On June 23 2005 02:42 Yarertz wrote: omg the sampler[vbk] and hardal[vbk]. the biggest lames in vbk clan, have rep on tl.net nice one hehe your clan  >8882: Zerg had to switch to mutas? Tell me how he'd have won, by breaking through yellow's turret+goliaths, or fighting blue's storms&archons? first of all they could have killed protoss few times later he did not have that much units zerg made like 12(?) lurkers at one point - most die vs tanks IMO muta harass would be much much better, terran did not have that many golies and mutas could own the whole push before toss would have archons (actually he could own the probes too) I believe he could have massed like 16mutas at one point, destroyed protoss probes+1 HT or something like that and then at least stopped the push. Notice that zerg's ally did not put ANY tanks in his mineral expo which could allow him to save it and push too. (actually he put some later, but lost them to dropship+scvs - it was pretty lame, because he had like 4 units at that time...) and toss had like 2 archons 3 hts, which massacred the hydra army anyway, I think muta-hydra army would destroy the protoss with less casualties | ||
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Shiv
France447 Posts
A 2vs2 is not two 1vs1, that may be the real problem. You think orange had a bad unit choice, whereas to me he did the best he could - his hydras were able to react on both fronts, it was as effective as it gets. I happen to think that those two teams' teamplay were fairly good. They were not divine, right. But to me that was a fairly good demonstration. On June 22 2005 16:51 Twisted wrote: Seeing as Trans[action] had 8 scv left in the beginning, and that protoss was dead after some 15~ 20 minutes, I would call it a comeback that they actually won ;D By the time Trans[action] had 8 scv, Sampler had been successfully canon rushed and lost his main. At 15-20, protoss had only his expo running only and was in a bad situation, right, but Trans was producting out of 3 expo (gas+min), all strongly secured, and had 3 dropship flying around. So yeah, maybe they were a bit at disadvantage, but I don't think that was a really "_GREAT_ comeback" anyway.  edit: Oh but yeah, Teal was a real faggot when he hid his bats at the end of the game. Damn idiot. | ||
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8882
2718 Posts
On June 23 2005 04:48 Shiv wrote: >8882: In your reply, you imply that yellow has nearly nothing because they could have "killed protoss a few times". Well, if you actually follow the game flow, you'll notice that yellow smartly goes out, help defend or counter whenever his ally is under attack (or so I recall, I may be wrong though). You said those lurkers orange made were useless. I recall a bunch of lurker killing protoss' nat, and two or three of them defending teal's last expo. As for your claims about Teal, I kind of agree: he was not really good, even though he held the middle during the first part of the game, preventing yellow from any real support to blue who was under orange's constant assaults. are you implying that the zerg lost although he did everything right? they had a great advantage but just played crappily. and not it werent their opponents who played that well, they just struggled like in every typical 2v2 game (real men fight to an end) what I saw, was bad macro at one point (IMO mutas would be great if he made them much, much earlier) and not crushing the protoss few times despite the fact he could be easily killed or at least left without workers A 2vs2 is not two 1vs1, that may be the real problem. You think orange had a bad unit choice, whereas to me he did the best he could - his hydras were able to react on both fronts, it was as effective as it gets. I happen to think that those two teams' teamplay were fairly good. They were not divine, right. But to me that was a fairly good demonstration. from your post it comes out that zerg and terran had no way of winning that despite their HUGE advantage... if he had the right unit mix why did he lose? there was some moment when he could do like 10 mutas, teal terran could take that mineral expo near center and they would easily win. actually if the terran had any brain and would defend his mineral expo, he could secure the center well, not a bit. team play might be good, nothing really impressive IMO,maybe you dont play 2v2, but they did not have good micro or macro and what sucked most was their unit choice, terran could have made tanks instead of vultures at the beggining and they would crush the protoss easily as far as I remember and I dont say the rep was bad, but it is not up to tl.net quality all players had crappy macro (ok maybe not the protoss), teal terran played as if he was asleep (0micro, vultures instead of tanks, lack of cooperation with zerg), zerg had bad unit mix IMO and orange won, because well the other players played bad - not because he played smart what I mean is that it somehow reminds me of my own (crappy) 2v2 replays where I win the game alone vs 2 worse players, not because I am so good, but because they play so cluelessly. Hardal and Sampler arent bad, but in this game they looked as if they were not thinking. Notice that if the orange terran was nada, he would crush them easily much, much faster, without the help of protoss and his HT (tons of minerals in the bank) as for the 2v2 not beeing a 1v1 part.. actually there wasn't that much cooperation between the players, especially at the level of the strats. and the game in fact WAS a 1v1 at some moment, when if was zerg vs the terran push, when the zerg could have massed mutas (equivalent of wraith in tvt whent the opponent overinvests in tanks -but much better), destroyed the push and helped terran to secure an expo - and then the terran would secure center and they would both slowpush/kill toss - and then crush terran with their expo advantage | ||
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Eatme
Switzerland3919 Posts
On June 22 2005 13:56 Musli wrote: Liked those reps. Nice agressive play from zerg. A bit of WanChul over it all since he rocked hard and came down short in the end... But nice and close games.http://www.netwars.pl/download.php?numer=103158 http://www.netwars.pl/download.php?numer=103157 2 great PvZ from WEST. P - eR-Vapur (on friend's acc) Z - ArtOfAngel ~~ | ||
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Shiv
France447 Posts
On June 23 2005 08:56 8882 wrote: are you implying that the zerg lost although he did everything right?[...] I'm implying he didn't do anything wrong. If what you saw was bad macro from the zerg's side, then go check the game again sherlock. A guy with 116 apm overall manage to crush protoss' base, dodge a good part of its storms, keep up with his macro and with its ally's needs, I say bravo. The same guy who did a nine pool and got his own base destroyed by a cannon rush. Mutas as we all know have to be taken care of very intensively, as soon as an archon or a templar gets in the fight, which is not hydra drops cases if done properly. And since you aren't droping that mutas line for the rest of your post, guess what: had he switched to mutas, don't you think that there would have been a slight chance that Trans[action] would have switched tech too? 8882 wrote: from your post it comes out that zerg and terran had no way of winning that despite their HUGE advantage... The very thing I was arguing with Twisted is that they didn't have any kind of big advantage. That's what's very big about this game in my opinion. At the beginning, blue is ruling the place with teal as a contestant. Then, they switch roles, and yellow and orange start ruling the game. At first, teal is still in the game whereas blue is left over, but the latter manages to be such a pain in the ass that the other team cannot concentrate on yellow. Yellow eventually finishes teal, then orange has little chances going on. 8882 wrote: there was some moment when he could do like 10 mutas, teal terran could take that mineral expo near center and they would easily win. actually if the terran had any brain and would defend his mineral expo, he could secure the center well, not a bit. Could, could, could, man, wasn't he doing anything else? Isn't it luckily some part of the 2vs2 gameplay, that to keep the other team from doing anything it could've been doing? Again I'm not saying this went for the very best, but please, less stupid theocrafting. Oh god, that's exactly what you're doing for the rest of your post. Oh, and it suprisingly goes along the "he could have made mutas" line. 8882 wrote: Notice that if the orange terran was nada, he would crush them easily much, much faster, without the help of protoss and his HT (tons of minerals in the bank) You actually wrote: "if the orange terran was nada, he would crush them easily". I mean, do you really think that were the orange terran nada, he would crush them easily? | ||
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Twisted
Netherlands13554 Posts
(on a sidenote, trans[action] and crescentmoon are far from crappy players :p) | ||
Bill307
Canada9103 Posts
 .The way the game progressed was really entertaining, from start to finish (until zerg fell too far behind to recover at the end). The toss could have been dead multiple times, but it was good to see him hanging in there and trying his best anyway in spite of the odds . It was also ironic how he ended up winning the game for that team as well, after his partner disconnected (?). In retrospect, I'm pretty surprised that the P+T team came back to win it in the end.Lastly, good 2v2 reps seem very rare, so this was easily one of the best and one of the longest that I've seen . | ||
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EchoOfRain
United States516 Posts
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jtan
Sweden5891 Posts
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riPPEy.rH
Finland94 Posts
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Holorin
France227 Posts
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8882
2718 Posts
On June 23 2005 14:46 Shiv wrote: I'm implying he didn't do anything wrong. If what you saw was bad macro from the zerg's side, then go check the game again sherlock. Bad macro also means bad unit mix. And if we start accepting games with bad macro, I can send some (lame) replays of me owning esu.blackman with battlecruiser rush or a 2v2 where I win alone. What I meant is that apart from the cool cannon rush and drops the game was not that nice, not up to teamliquidnet standards IMO. I mean I gave few links to rep downloads and all were rejected, so I thought that tl.net takes only ultra high quality reps (like the Bul.T rep (I suggested it ahahahahahaha ))A guy with 116 apm overall manage to crush protoss' base, dodge a good part of its storms, keep up with his macro and with its ally's needs, I say bravo. wtf do you mean? people can win with 40 apm, I think two good 90apm players would easily own protoss and terran. and if low apm vs high apm game is amazing for you, search for a replay of macia vs themarine - 90vs350apm... The same guy who did a nine pool and got his own base destroyed by a cannon rush. Mutas as we all know have to be taken care of very intensively, as soon as an archon or a templar gets in the fight, which is not hydra drops cases if done properly. And since you aren't droping that mutas line for the rest of your post, guess what: had he switched to mutas, don't you think that there would have been a slight chance that Trans[action] would have switched tech too? you seem not to understand 2v2 at all. mutas would allow him to clear the push at some moment (just like wraiths work in tvt when opponent overinvests in tanks -but mutas are a bit better) so teal terran could retake an expo and secure the center. mutas could work at some moments too, if the zerg would micro them - toss had like 1 templar or something. hydra-muta would allow zerg to destroy toss easily - without mutas sniping templars his hydra army got owned by storms The very thing I was arguing with Twisted is that they didn't have any kind of big advantage. That's what's very big about this game in my opinion. At the beginning, blue is ruling the place with teal as a contestant. Then, they switch roles, and yellow and orange start ruling the game. At first, teal is still in the game whereas blue is left over, but the latter manages to be such a pain in the ass that the other team cannot concentrate on yellow. Yellow eventually finishes teal, then orange has little chances going on. after the cannon rush the terran could have killed the protoss alone.. and that rush was nice, but did not hurt THAT much, at least not as much as the destrucion of yellows scvs 8882 wrote: there was some moment when he could do like 10 mutas, teal terran could take that mineral expo near center and they would easily win. actually if the terran had any brain and would defend his mineral expo, he could secure the center well, not a bit. Could, could, could, man, wasn't he doing anything else? Isn't it luckily some part of the 2vs2 gameplay, that to keep the other team from doing anything it could've been doing? Again I'm not saying this went for the very best, but please, less stupid theocrafting. Oh god, that's exactly what you're doing for the rest of your post. Oh, and it suprisingly goes along the "he could have made mutas" line.[/quote] and suprisingly you did not answer why mutas would be a bad option You actually wrote: "if the orange terran was nada, he would crush them easily". I mean, do you really think that were the orange terran nada, he would crush them easily? yup, nada would not keep 4000/1000 in bank so he would have more units faster - so he could do the push without protoss support. not to mention that nada would destroy that unprotected mineral only much faster, so teal would be cut off resources earlier I can send you some of my own 2v2 replays and you could tell me if they amaze you. I macro with 90apm! | ||
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8882
2718 Posts
On June 24 2005 07:09 Holorin wrote: i believe terran jsut left because it was over and that would've been boring with nothing to do I know the terran, he is VERY BM | ||
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Jantje
Netherlands22 Posts
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Twisted
Netherlands13554 Posts
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Shiv
France447 Posts
On June 24 2005 14:58 8882 wrote: you seem not to understand 2v2 at all. That's what I like about TL.net. You're arguing about something, and suddenly someone throw you a "you just don't understand". 8882 wrote: and suprisingly you did not answer why mutas would be a bad option I adressed the point of hydras being a clear better unit choice than mutas when a zerg is confronted to both terran and protoss units. Hydras are cheap, not too much micro-intensive, and you can sacrifice them. They can deal with a protoss army alone, and are also able to deal alone with a mechanic-only terran army, which quite fit the situation. Now I will be honest: instead of just hydras/mutas mix, why not bring up defilers, queens and ultralisks when we are at it? What's the difference between you saying that he should have added mutas, and me saying that he should have added every other zerg unit that cost a lot and that require a lot of micro uh? Wait, if you didn't read my point on hydras, it's useless. 8882 wrote: yup, nada would not keep 4000/1000 in bank so he would have more units faster - I was merely making fun of you. Nobody ever compared this guys to the best progamers. Don't do it. Shall I explain why? | ||
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8882
2718 Posts
On June 25 2005 02:23 Shiv wrote: That's what I like about TL.net. You're arguing about something, and suddenly someone throw you a "you just don't understand". well, I give you arguments. I say "mutas could do this and that" and you say "no mutas are bad" tell me why they would be bad... I adressed the point of hydras being a clear better unit choice than mutas when a zerg is confronted to both terran and protoss units. Hydras are cheap, not too much micro-intensive, and you can sacrifice them. They can deal with a protoss army alone, and are also able to deal alone with a mechanic-only terran army, which quite fit the situation. you seem not to understand what I wrote I said he could make SOME mutas, not pure mutas, to clear the push, kill few HTs, harass the probes so that his ally could secure middle and his hydra army just got totally annihilated by toss+terran (toss had few units...) actually it was crippled by toss alone - with mass storms and Id prefer to see someone who can micro his units, so if you like replays with no micro and no macro, then maybe you should check replays of c6players @ wgt? I dont know what's your point with mutas being so micro intensive? ... At one point he could have just attack moved/shift queued... Now I will be honest: instead of just hydras/mutas mix, why not bring up defilers, queens and ultralisks when we are at it? What's the difference between you saying that he should have added mutas, and me saying that he should have added every other zerg unit that cost a lot and that require a lot of micro uh? Wait, if you didn't read my point on hydras, it's useless. [/quote] because 1. He didnt have hive tech 2.He didnt have enough money to make ultras (he could affor like 6-8) and terran had his tanks spread, so the ultras could have died. Defilers suck with hydra support vs tanks/storm (never noticed that?) and queens are too slow (150mana requirement) and you actually state that mutas are microintensive? interesting. your point on hydras is that they are the best option in such a situation. your best option did not work. 8882 wrote: yup, nada would not keep 4000/1000 in bank so he would have more units faster - I was merely making fun of you. Nobody ever compared this guys to the best progamers. Don't do it. Shall I explain why?[/QUOTE] yea, explain in the tl.net replay section most games are played by pros, or people who are nearly as good as pros, or at least have great micro/macro and so on.. so a replay with someone with bad micro/macro and unit mix is not up to tl.nets standards | ||
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