|
On April 23 2008 05:57 RaGe wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2008 01:41 CubEdIn wrote:Hi, Ultraling asked me to put together this post for you guys. Oh and btw the rule with "no more than 9 games in same day vs same play" was written by LRM)Scythe on iccup.com like few hours ago. See this link, post #75. Scythe saying "Thanks for remind me, let me go update the rules"... Also many players played more than 9 games vs same person in same day and if you would delete all games of them too, this would happen: TSL-Redeemer out of top 48: Look how redeemer beat TSL-Oystein 9-3 in the last day of ICCup, so if last 3 games would be deleted redeemer would have 8708 (current) - 291 points, that would be 8417, out of top 48. So, iNc, how do you like them apples? You go around yelling that people are abusing their friends to get an advantage in the last day and you play TWELVE games vs Oystein? 9-3 at B+ level is pretty much the same amount of points gained as Ultraling's 7-1 games. And since all of the games were probably legit (yours and his) then you should both be reduced to 9 games per day. Correct? Also, White-Ra, Mondragon, Boxerz, Hannigan, Xiaozi, Strelok, all have over 10 games a day at one point or another, and some (like White-Ra) would fall out of top16 if you remove all games over 10. Now these games were not played in the last day, but if the rule sticks then it should apply to everyone. Right? Either way, while others might get away, you should definitely check out Redeemer's games. I guess he thought that the "blame everyone else and hope nobody will notice you" tactic will work. theres a huge difference between the two and that is that UltraLing played his friend, and incontrol played a guy he doesnt really know.
THIS DOES NOT MATTER.
Are you saying that Ultraling's friend threw the games? The replays state otherwise. Is the 9-games-a-day rule only viable for people who are friends?
And how the hell do you know Ultraling and Flaf are friends. They're in the same clan, yes, but that's about it. Way to speculate your ass off.
But that's ok I get it. The rule only applies in certain cases. That's fine.
|
Austin10833 Posts
Do you have the replays cube?
|
Awwww, aint this cute.
Friends till the end.
|
Another problem is that people were complainign about the lack of opponents so they would just keep on rematching so that they didn't have to sit in the channel for 20-30 mins for the next game... and really, if the other guy is playing his best, getting creamed but still offering a rematch, why not give it to him?
|
On April 23 2008 06:35 BroOd wrote:
Do you have the replays cube?
No, but I could get them. Why would it matter though. It's the admin's decision even if you agree with me or not.
|
Austin10833 Posts
On April 23 2008 06:44 CubEdIn wrote:No, but I could get them. Why would it matter though. It's the admin's decision even if you agree with me or not.
What I meant was, I was wondering who reviewed the replays, since I couldn't find anywhere that an admin says they viewed them, just that they deleted points for playing too many games.
|
Guys, don't be thick! Even in a court, you know a guy can get nailed not for breaking a rule per se, but for breaking the spirit of that rule.
Of course, it would be better if a godly admin could create the ultimate set of rules that could not be abused and that would prevent anyone from cheating. But we all know that will never happen.
Yet I think we all know fishy behavior when we see it. Some guys just keep playing on the edge, and when they get caught, defend by saying they did nothing against the rules. What is fairer to those who play with sportsmanship? Letting a bunch of guys play with the rules? Or take action even if there is no strict offense?
I believe TSL admins haven't spent so much time on this ladder to see everything be jeopardized by a hasty decision. They have tons of data to analyze, a lot of experience, and real pro admins to help them in their task. So if they say X or Y abused, why doubt them?
Besides, they have been doing their "job" thoroughly so far, so I am convinced they will catch all the best ranked abusers. No need to shout or point your finger. Work is in progress.
PS : Congrats admins and all those who help. Your dedication is admirable.
|
On April 23 2008 05:50 OnCoke wrote:Well, iCCup.Scythe was "rushing" to add it / update it some hours ago.... that's why i said it's new... Anyway, it doesn't really matters since it seems that quite a number of players didn't follow it and are about to lose points. Koreans never get this kind of drama  ... they have no idea what they'r missing. ps: had no idea about testie .... wow ... 12 games lol. well, i guess it was an honour for TSL_Nosu to play that many games against the best foreign random player.
new? i saw that rule (i guess it wasnt very explicit) very soon after the ladder started.
|
Why do reps matter? Incontrol played the same guy 12 times in one day, so the last 3 games should be removed. That being said, I don't think he will be because he just seems like the type of person to think that he deserves some special privileges. Anyway, nice job catching the hypocrisy CubEdIn. It seems more and more like they just wanted to get Testie in.
|
Now we have a regular of TL.net, who contributes to the site (replay section) getting a pass when he is caught abusing the rules? Do the rules apply to everyone or not? You can't pick and choose so you can populate the tournament with people you like. Putting up 10k and running an event doesn't make it respectable or legit if you're blatantly unfair.
|
It's not about getting testie in. I want testie in also. And even if iNc would lose the last 4 games he'd still probably make #48 if nothing else changes.
The problem is that he was pointing fingers all around while he broke the rule himself. I fully support the admin decision on Ultraling, I just hate it that when it comes to a more popular figure we're sweeping the whole thing under the rug. You only enforced this rule for one person, even though many others broke it, because there was much bitching about it on the forums/iccup/etc. Now that someone else has done the exact same thing, but there's only me posting around, it will go unnoticed.
That's not fair no matter how you look at it.
I'm done posting about this.
|
Braavos36390 Posts
This is the last time I'll say this. The game limit per rank is not a hardline rule. It's a discretionary rule. The admins use their judgment and make a decision. After reviewing all the complaints, the current positions are now finalized.
Everyone stop talking about it, because nothing is changing.
|
On April 23 2008 05:57 RaGe wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2008 01:41 CubEdIn wrote:Hi, Ultraling asked me to put together this post for you guys. Oh and btw the rule with "no more than 9 games in same day vs same play" was written by LRM)Scythe on iccup.com like few hours ago. See this link, post #75. Scythe saying "Thanks for remind me, let me go update the rules"... Also many players played more than 9 games vs same person in same day and if you would delete all games of them too, this would happen: TSL-Redeemer out of top 48: Look how redeemer beat TSL-Oystein 9-3 in the last day of ICCup, so if last 3 games would be deleted redeemer would have 8708 (current) - 291 points, that would be 8417, out of top 48. So, iNc, how do you like them apples? You go around yelling that people are abusing their friends to get an advantage in the last day and you play TWELVE games vs Oystein? 9-3 at B+ level is pretty much the same amount of points gained as Ultraling's 7-1 games. And since all of the games were probably legit (yours and his) then you should both be reduced to 9 games per day. Correct? Also, White-Ra, Mondragon, Boxerz, Hannigan, Xiaozi, Strelok, all have over 10 games a day at one point or another, and some (like White-Ra) would fall out of top16 if you remove all games over 10. Now these games were not played in the last day, but if the rule sticks then it should apply to everyone. Right? Either way, while others might get away, you should definitely check out Redeemer's games. I guess he thought that the "blame everyone else and hope nobody will notice you" tactic will work. theres a huge difference between the two and that is that UltraLing played his friend, and incontrol played a guy he doesnt really know.
dont really care for either player, but the rules are the rules isnt it? as long as someone checks the replays and sees that one side wasnt throwing games, both inc and ultraling should be penalized equally for breaking the 9 games a day vs same person rule. it just would be showing favoritism for one player and that isnt very professional.
i am just curious how TSL staff will respond to this because cubedin does bring up a good valid point when it comes to the rules applying to everyone in the B level range equally, and not just against one person and not the other...
intriguing...
*edit*
sorry, didnt read the post hotbid made before posting this, hotbid like posted while i was typing this up lol
|
On April 23 2008 07:31 Hot_Bid wrote:
This is the last time I'll say this. The game limit per rank is not a hardline rule. It's a discretionary rule. The admins use their judgment and make a decision. After reviewing all the complaints, the current positions are now finalized.
Everyone stop talking about it, because nothing is changing.
Can you explain what went on in making the decision to allow Incontrol to keep his games? Both him and Ultra played them at B and above rankings, so there's really not much difference. It's not like Ultra did his at C- and Incontrol at B+, where the rule is more lax because it's much harder to find games.
It looks bad when a TL.net staff member (replay section) is allowed to break the rules, and then when called on it, the only explanation is it's a staff decision.
|
On April 23 2008 07:54 FamousRobot wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2008 07:31 Hot_Bid wrote:
This is the last time I'll say this. The game limit per rank is not a hardline rule. It's a discretionary rule. The admins use their judgment and make a decision. After reviewing all the complaints, the current positions are now finalized.
Everyone stop talking about it, because nothing is changing. Can you explain what went on in making the decision to allow Incontrol to keep his games? Both him and Ultra played them at B and above rankings, so there's really not much difference. It's not like Ultra did his at C- and Incontrol at B+, where the rule is more lax because it's much harder to find games. It looks bad when a TL.net staff member (replay section) is allowed to break the rules, and then when called on it, the only explanation is it's a staff decision.
christ man,
THERE IS NO RULE. DO YOU NOT UNDERSTAND?
do you think they would keep incontrol in if they thought he was cheating in any way or form?
jesus motherfucking unholy shitting christ
|
Inc isn't staff. No one here even likes him.
|
iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
It wasn't breaking the rules like hot_bid said. That "rule" is just a discretionary guideline so that players know there in abouts how m any games they should play. Personally I didnt even know there was a limit and what that limit was. I gave re's everytime someone asked me and Oystein wanted to continue playing evidently.
Cubedin you didnt find anything revolutionary or anything sorry. If you look at any of my posts and actually read them this time never once did i complain about the # of games they played alone, but rather that two friends played games MINUTES before the deadline and low and behold, the player capable of qualifying won almost every single one of them wow! Just like with g5 and lzgamer, the player on the actual TSL account ended up winning, that looks really fucking bad and one of them got banned. Oystein won 3 games against me and he made every other game go 30 minutes or so on my best map. I had never even known he existed before htat series. My problems are hardly hypocritical. I did these games the day before hte deadline too so even on a timeline the issue is moot.
Also I am not staff so dont for a second hint towards some kind of bias that is laughable. I upload replays cause I been around forever and asked if I could do that. I dont view any secret mod forums and I dont have any decision making power. I am an asset to this community through my experiences and contributions through that, you should try and do the same. Not sit here and cry injustice because a fucking abuser like ultraling got held accountable. I am not an abuser no matter how you paint it.
|
Travis, check the ICCup rule page lol...
It isn't about cheating, it clearly states you cannot play over a certain limit.
- Freewins are not allowed. Any wins/points received in this manner are deducted. If the abuse consists of over 5 games, it will result in the reset and lock of all accounts involved.
- Avoiding a loss is not allowed. Repeated drop hack, intentional disconnection and/or flying away with buildings will be punished with a reset and lock.
- You may play the same player only a limited number of times per day, regardless whether the games are legit or not. The system is as follows:
1) D and C level: 5 games per day
2) B level: 9 games per day
3) A level: 13 games per day.
This is because it's progressively harder to find a variety of opponents at higher ranks, because there are less high-ranked players overall, and because abuse is less likely in the higher ranks (risk, effort). However, in a suspicious case, replays will be demanded.
Although I'm not sure if TSL follows that rule, as it is not run by ICCup - the rules are made and revised by TSL administration. I'm assuming TSL is just using the rules on ICCup as a general guideline. The only problem I have is they should have publicized this rule, because no one really even knew about it, and if TSL wants to make this discretionary, they should have atleast included it initially so people would actually know why they are losing points.
|
Just because Incontrol doesn't have a blue name doesn't mean he's not staff. He works for this site (he uploads replays). How can you argue that someone who is allowed to make direct contributions that normal users cannot and edit the site directly is not a staff member?
Second:
On April 23 2008 07:59 travis wrote:
christ man,
THERE IS NO RULE. DO YOU NOT UNDERSTAND?
do you think they would keep incontrol in if they thought he was cheating in any way or form?
jesus motherfucking unholy shitting christ
Here's the rule:
http://www.iccup.com/info/ladder_rules/
ABUSE
- Freewins are not allowed. Any wins/points received in this manner are deducted. If the abuse consists of over 5 games, it will result in the reset and lock of all accounts involved.
- Avoiding a loss is not allowed. Repeated drop hack, intentional disconnection and/or flying away with buildings will be punished with a reset and lock.
- You may play the same player only a limited number of times per day, regardless whether the games are legit or not. The system is as follows:
1) D and C level: 5 games per day
2) B level: 9 games per day
3) A level: 13 games per day.
This is because it's progressively harder to find a variety of opponents at higher ranks, because there are less high-ranked players overall, and because abuse is less likely in the higher ranks (risk, effort). However, in a suspicious case, replays will be demanded.
THIS is the reason why Ultraling was reduced to 9 games allowed per day as stated in the first post. It's in accordance with the rule I quoted above.
|
On April 23 2008 08:02 SCC-Faust wrote:Travis, check the ICCup rule page lol... It isn't about cheating, it clearly states you cannot play over a certain limit. Show nested quote +- Freewins are not allowed. Any wins/points received in this manner are deducted. If the abuse consists of over 5 games, it will result in the reset and lock of all accounts involved.
- Avoiding a loss is not allowed. Repeated drop hack, intentional disconnection and/or flying away with buildings will be punished with a reset and lock.
- You may play the same player only a limited number of times per day, regardless whether the games are legit or not. The system is as follows:
1) D and C level: 5 games per day
2) B level: 9 games per day
3) A level: 13 games per day.
This is because it's progressively harder to find a variety of opponents at higher ranks, because there are less high-ranked players overall, and because abuse is less likely in the higher ranks (risk, effort). However, in a suspicious case, replays will be demanded. Although I'm not sure if TSL follows that rule, as it is not run by ICCup - the rules are made and revised by TSL administration. I'm assuming TSL is just using the rules on ICCup as a general guideline. The only problem I have is they should have publicized this rule, because no one really even knew about it, and if TSL wants to make this discretionary, they should have atleast included it initially so people would actually know why they are losing points.
there is a thread with the TSL rules and it says nothing about ICCup's rules
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
