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Kennigit
Canada19447 Posts
<font size = "4">Top 48 Changes</font>
As part of an ongoing investigation to make sure the most worthy and legitimate players are part of the TSL top 48, we have run into a number issues surrounding players "abusing" or taking advantage of iCCup policy with regards to the number of games they can play against competitors. iCCup's current policy is 9 games per day per player maximum and unfortunately as we saw at the end of the ladder this resulted in some less than credible matches being played between friends. TSL admins have been forced to walk a fine line with what is fair and what is justifiable with regards to our rulings. They are as follows
Ultraling -> 22 games played over 2 days vs the same player. Ultraling immediately popped up on everyone's radar for blatantly taking advantage of iccup policy. Unfortunately for him, with the very small point difference between the top 48 players, the removal of 4 of his games (to make it 18, 9 per day) removes him from the standings of the top 48.
G5 -> G5 played 3 games near the end of the ladder vs a second iccup account started by LzGaMeR where he won all 3 games (pvz, pvp, pvt). While this alone would not warrent a ban, G5 has come up on the TSL abuse radar far too often for one tournament and the evidence compounds so greatly that we cannot ignore it. This includes 2 disconnect complaints against him, 3 noted abuse games at the end of the ladder and some underhanded and deceitful complaint requests long after their play dates. TSL admins have done nothing by try to be fair in the situations that have arisen, especially with G5 but the evidence against him leaves us with little choice but for his removal from the top 48.
Replacements
As per TSL policy the players next in line, Machine and Testie will replace those removed from the top 48. An updated schedule with replacements will follow this post.
We would like to thank all players who made our lives easier by playing fairly and following the rules set in place. We have had relatively few problems thus far given the scale of this event and thank you for bearing with us as we have had to make some tough but necessary decisions
TSL Staff
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intrigue
Washington, D.C9934 Posts
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Poor Fenix  So good, and so close.
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is awesome32277 Posts
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United States7166 Posts
oh if I could only post the conversation testie and I just had on msn...
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Wow. While I'm glad testie and machine make it through... the G5 decision seems harsh. Can't say that TL hasn't done a great job so far... and I trust their judgment.
Can't wait til second leg of TSL~~~~~~~~
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i'm guessing
you: blah blah blah you're in top 48 TSL
testie: DOTA
you: aren't you excited?
testie: ASDF
testie: DOTA
you: going to win that 5k?
testie: dota bbl
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United States7166 Posts
no that's how most of our other convo's go though lol.
and the conversation we had started before this thread was posted.
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Kennigit
Canada19447 Posts
Unless Testie forfeits there is nothing to discuss.
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Braavos36390 Posts
On April 22 2008 11:28 ilbh wrote:
what happened to fenix?
He was banned by ICCup admins for abusing.
edit: unrelated to the spam bot.
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FUCK YES TESTIE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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United States7166 Posts
He can't forfeit, Kennigit...else he will let a little Canadian hospitalized girl die
YOU HEAR ME NICK () ???????
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
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so this only counts multiple games versus someone near the end? because I think white ra and mondragon even went at each other for like 17 games straight or something in one day, although clearly neither was abusing.
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Braavos36390 Posts
On April 22 2008 11:31 talismania wrote:
so this only counts multiple games versus someone near the end? because I think white ra and mondragon even went at each other for like 17 games straight or something in one day, although clearly neither was abusing.
The ICCup admins simply remove the point values for the games played over the specified limit. For Ultraling it was 9 games a day and for Mondragon/White-Ra it was 13 games in a day. The effect was negligible on Mondragon and White-Ra (virtually no point difference) but on Ultraling it'd push him out of the Top 48.
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Why are machine and testie placed as #31 and #36 in the R1 schedule?
they should be #47 and #48... do not?
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
because players are already geared for their mu's etc. Anyways these guys that were brought in were brought in as replacements so as to fill the void not shift the entire schedule.
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Those are some interesting changes.
(That's a neutral comment, for those of you ready to read into the lines).
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
like if someone in a day or two gets caught hacking they will be replaced not have the entire draw shift.
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I feel no remorse for G5 because he's a jerk.
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G5 played 3 games near the end of the ladder vs a second iccup account started by LzGaMeR where he won all 3 games (pvz, pvp, pvt). While this alone would not warrent a ban, G5 has come up on the TSL abuse radar far too often for one tournament and the evidence compounds so greatly that we cannot ignore it. This includes 2 disconnect complaints against him, 3 noted abuse games at the end of the ladder and some underhanded and deceitful complaint requests long after their play dates. TSL admins have done nothing by try to be fair in the situations that have arisen, especially with G5 but the evidence against him leaves us with little choice but for his removal from the top 48.
Sry for my question, but isnt LzGaMeR an abuser too when hes helping other to abuse?
Shouldnt he get a punishment for this?
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Braavos36390 Posts
Unfortunately, there was no rule stated that you were not allowed to play TSL players with a second, non-TSL account. In fact, I know that many of the Top 48 used alternate, non-TSL accounts to play against TSL players. A frantic hunt for aka's and past games is unfair to the players and impractical in scope.
As for G5, Kennigit already explained that this was simply the last straw in a series of bad incidents. We have been more than fair and accommodating to him, spending countless hours resolving messes that he created.
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Austin10833 Posts
On April 22 2008 11:52 Hot_Bid wrote:
Unfortunately, there was no rule stated that you were not allowed to play TSL players with a second, non-TSL account. In fact, I know that many of the Top 48 used alternate, non-TSL accounts to play against TSL players. A frantic hunt for aka's and past games is unfair to the players and impractical in scope.
Did they notify mods of their smurf akas before they started playing?
I guess at this point it doesn't really matter.
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Amazingly proffesional and well handled, I seriously cannot express how much TSL owns everything else at the moment. Keep the good work going guys, we (me) really appreciate it.
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TESTIE YOU CAN TOUCH MY TESTIE TONIGHT WHILE I PLAY WITH YOUR JAEDONG
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testie miraculously squeezes in? dun dun dunnnn
anyway, those near the 48 definitely worked for it, and it sucks that a handful of points decided who moves on and who doesnt. congrats~
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heh i beat quite a few ppl on my other account.. like Leg(pvp) handy ect.. i didnt know i was not supose to do it.. since i seen other tsl gamers doing it from the beginning >_>
(monkey see monkey do) T.T
Sorry again
-Lz
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Thx for your quick answer Hot_Bid, keep up the good work!
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Braavos36390 Posts
On April 22 2008 11:54 BroOd wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2008 11:52 Hot_Bid wrote:
Unfortunately, there was no rule stated that you were not allowed to play TSL players with a second, non-TSL account. In fact, I know that many of the Top 48 used alternate, non-TSL accounts to play against TSL players. A frantic hunt for aka's and past games is unfair to the players and impractical in scope.
Did they notify mods of their smurf akas before they started playing? I guess at this point it doesn't really matter.
It wasn't really a smurf because the second account wasn't registered in the TSL team. I agree, next time we will make a rule against playing with a separate, non-TSL account and interacting with the TSL ladder. But this time so many players were doing it that it'd be unfair and impossible to go back and try to fix all of it.
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Austin10833 Posts
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TESTIE! DON'T LET ANYONE DOWN NOW! WE LOVE YOU.
Oh yeah and G5 is a huge bm asshole so glad he's out  Good job TSL Admins and Mods. Doing a wonderful job!!!
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Good decision. At least everyone who was saying Ultraling got Flaf to drop games will shut the hell up now.
Good luck testie. If you lose R1 you have to play techies for an entire day.
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testie will lose .... really i dont think he cares too much about sc anymore
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
On April 22 2008 12:32 CubEdIn wrote:
Good decision. At least everyone who was saying Ultraling got Flaf to drop games will shut the hell up now.
Good luck testie. If you lose R1 you have to play techies for an entire day.
WTf?
Will you shut the hell up those people were RIGHT your defending of him was WRONG.
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greatmeh, that was unnecessary negativism... everyone here is being optimistic and happy for the fact that testie made top 48, dont ruin it with ur thoughtless comments
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kool! I saw Testie at 49 and I was like aww that sux, but now Im happy.
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man, its like every post i see by inc he's yelling at someone. in bold.
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
It increases the chances that I will be regarded as "yelling." bingo
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???????????
You don't even ask for the reps you just see america vs america 3-0 and u ban me? To be quite honest I don't even care at this point. I think I would care more (actually I would be fucken furious) if it wouldn't mean Machine being kicked out since he is easily my best friend from sc or if the TL Admins didn't so strongly express how much they don't want me around for causing them to do some work. Not even asking for the replays and banning me is just proof of this. If any admins want the replays I will send them to be viewed but oops that would require another 15 minutes of work.
But let me be very clear about this, LzGaMeR is my friend (hang me now! what a crime!) and the only reason I asked him to game was because all B guys were dodging me with only 30 minutes or w/e to go. He told me when I asked him that he would feel bad if he knocked me out (ret said this to me too when I played him 1 or 2 days ago, lets all say I abused and took a free win vs him also) and I told him all dodge me and I need to play. So he agree'd and we played. Maybe there was a silent notion of giving me wins and he didn't try as hard but we never arranged anything and the games were legit as far as I'm concerned. So don't even talk about banning Lz.
Secondly - yes I made a mistake vs MIStrZZZ and I am sorry for that.
Thirdly - and I am VERY sick of hearing this, so let me make this clear. I did not drop hack anyone and I did not intentionally disc vs anyone. And I am assuming the 2 disc complaints were 1. MIStrZZZ which we covered and 2. The kid who got me reset for nothing.
Fourthly - I made the 2 complaints before the ladder ended and 1 after the ladder ended and the 1 which was accepted by HOTBID, KENNIGIT and a ICCup Admin was submitted before ladders end so I don't see why I am being held accountable for that either?
So basically I got banned for 2 things which were already dealt with (which unfortunately caused you admins to do your jobs, oh my gosh lets get out the hammer now) then playing my friend 3 times. I will admit that there was a feeling (especially when he went T) that he wasn't going to be trying to hard and I did/do feel a little dirty about that but I tried hard and so did he in w/e race he played (T being his only off-race). It's like KeSPa saying "lets ban sAviOr for going off-race vs ChoJJa. Obviously a free win!". once again let me make this clear that there was no pre-game arrangement of him giving me free wins. Simply that we were playing cuss I couldn't get a game and I think he was happy to play B+.
It's clear you guys don't like me so I will just go back to gaming outside of TSL and watch from the sidelines as I am now required to do so w/e.
Just stop with the "We have been more than fair and accommodating to him" and "TSL admins have done nothing by try to be fair in the situations that have arisen". From what I hear you were going to ban me immediately when the drop hack accusations came up if it wern't for Artosis defending me and telling u to talk to me 1st. I guess there was no 1 to tell you guys this time that maybe you should look at the replays before jumping to the ban wagon. I guess thats 1 thing your good at though.
And no need to say the good ol' "get lost" post because you simply don't care about me / spending time doing your "job". I am out of here, this was the worst ladder experience I have ever had. Yes a part of it was my fault but the others were simply having admins run the ladder who get a kick out of punishing / banning people and getting praise by mindless kids on a forum. What I learned in the MIStrZZZ case was that if you guys would actually spend as much time working on the individual problems in this ladder as you do trying to enhance reputation, do damage control and make fancy "look who we banned" posts to please the general audience, you guys would actually be good admins. Right now your just normal admins who handle situations with the attitude of "how will this affect us?" which isn't good. I won't look at this disgusting page again, so you are free to say w/e you want about what happened in our convo's and how "fairly" you treated me and not get called on it. Have fun.
Once again, I would care more if it wasn't Machine taking my spot. So I will end this with a good ol 1 2 3 Bryce "Machine" Bates FIGHTING!!!!!!!!!!!! SHOW EM WHAT CALI'S GOT!
C ya~
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Braavos36390 Posts
On April 22 2008 13:09 G5 wrote:
???????????
You don't even ask for the reps you just see america vs america 3-0 and u ban me? To be quite honest I don't even care at this point. I think I would care more (actually I would be fucken furious) if it wouldn't mean Machine being kicked out since he is easily my best friend from sc or if the TL Admins didn't so strongly express how much they don't want me around for causing them to do some work. Not even asking for the replays and banning me is just proof of this. If any admins want the replays I will send them to be viewed but oops that would require another 15 minutes of work.
But let me be very clear about this, LzGaMeR is my friend (hang me now! what a crime!) and the only reason I asked him to game was because all B guys were dodging me with only 30 minutes or w/e to go. He told me when I asked him that he would feel bad if he knocked me out (ret said this to me too when I played him 1 or 2 days ago, lets all say I abused and took a free win vs him also) and I told him all dodge me and I need to play. So he agree'd and we played. Maybe there was a silent notion of giving me wins and he didn't try as hard but we never arranged anything and the games were legit as far as I'm concerned. So don't even talk about banning Lz.
Secondly - yes I made a mistake vs MIStrZZZ and I am sorry for that.
Thirdly - and I am VERY sick of hearing this, so let me make this clear. I did not drop hack anyone and I did not intentionally disc vs anyone. And I am assuming the 2 disc complaints were 1. MIStrZZZ which we covered and 2. The kid who got me reset for nothing.
Fourthly - I made the 2 complaints before the ladder ended and 1 after the ladder ended and the 1 which was accepted by HOTBID, KENNIGIT and a ICCup Admin was submitted before ladders end so I don't see why I am being held accountable for that either?
So basically I got banned for 2 things which were already dealt with (which unfortunately caused you admins to do your jobs, oh my gosh lets get out the hammer now) then playing my friend 3 times. I will admit that there was a feeling (especially when he went T) that he wasn't going to be trying to hard and I did/do feel a little dirty about that but I tried hard and so did he in w/e race he played (T being his only off-race). It's like KeSPa saying "lets ban sAviOr for going off-race vs ChoJJa. Obviously a free win!". once again let me make this clear that there was no pre-game arrangement of him giving me free wins. Simply that we were playing cuss I couldn't get a game and I think he was happy to play B+.
It's clear you guys don't like me so I will just go back to gaming outside of TSL and watch from the sidelines as I am now required to do so w/e.
Just stop with the "We have been more than fair and accommodating to him" and "TSL admins have done nothing by try to be fair in the situations that have arisen". From what I hear you were going to ban me immediately when the drop hack accusations came up if it wern't for Artosis defending me and telling u to talk to me 1st. I guess there was no 1 to tell you guys this time that maybe you should look at the replays before jumping to the ban wagon. I guess thats 1 thing your good at though.
And no need to say the good ol' "get lost" post because you simply don't care about me / spending time doing your "job". I am out of here, this was the worst ladder experience I have ever had. Yes a part of it was my fault but the others were simply having admins run the ladder who get a kick out of punishing / banning people and getting praise by mindless kids on a forum. What I learned in the MIStrZZZ case was that if you guys would actually spend as much time working on the individual problems in this ladder as you do trying to enhance reputation, do damage control and make fancy "look who we banned" posts to please the general audience, you guys would actually be good admins. Right now your just normal admins who handle situations with the attitude of "how will this affect us?" which isn't good. I won't look at this disgusting page again, so you are free to say w/e you want about what happened in our convo's and how "fairly" you treated me and not get called on it. Have fun.
Once again, I would care more if it wasn't Machine taking my spot. So I will end this with a good ol 1 2 3 Bryce "Machine" Bates FIGHTING!!!!!!!!!!!! SHOW EM WHAT CALI'S GOT!
C ya~
Savior offraced vs GoRush.
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On April 22 2008 13:11 Hot_Bid wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2008 13:09 G5 wrote:
???????????
You don't even ask for the reps you just see america vs america 3-0 and u ban me? To be quite honest I don't even care at this point. I think I would care more (actually I would be fucken furious) if it wouldn't mean Machine being kicked out since he is easily my best friend from sc or if the TL Admins didn't so strongly express how much they don't want me around for causing them to do some work. Not even asking for the replays and banning me is just proof of this. If any admins want the replays I will send them to be viewed but oops that would require another 15 minutes of work.
But let me be very clear about this, LzGaMeR is my friend (hang me now! what a crime!) and the only reason I asked him to game was because all B guys were dodging me with only 30 minutes or w/e to go. He told me when I asked him that he would feel bad if he knocked me out (ret said this to me too when I played him 1 or 2 days ago, lets all say I abused and took a free win vs him also) and I told him all dodge me and I need to play. So he agree'd and we played. Maybe there was a silent notion of giving me wins and he didn't try as hard but we never arranged anything and the games were legit as far as I'm concerned. So don't even talk about banning Lz.
Secondly - yes I made a mistake vs MIStrZZZ and I am sorry for that.
Thirdly - and I am VERY sick of hearing this, so let me make this clear. I did not drop hack anyone and I did not intentionally disc vs anyone. And I am assuming the 2 disc complaints were 1. MIStrZZZ which we covered and 2. The kid who got me reset for nothing.
Fourthly - I made the 2 complaints before the ladder ended and 1 after the ladder ended and the 1 which was accepted by HOTBID, KENNIGIT and a ICCup Admin was submitted before ladders end so I don't see why I am being held accountable for that either?
So basically I got banned for 2 things which were already dealt with (which unfortunately caused you admins to do your jobs, oh my gosh lets get out the hammer now) then playing my friend 3 times. I will admit that there was a feeling (especially when he went T) that he wasn't going to be trying to hard and I did/do feel a little dirty about that but I tried hard and so did he in w/e race he played (T being his only off-race). It's like KeSPa saying "lets ban sAviOr for going off-race vs ChoJJa. Obviously a free win!". once again let me make this clear that there was no pre-game arrangement of him giving me free wins. Simply that we were playing cuss I couldn't get a game and I think he was happy to play B+.
It's clear you guys don't like me so I will just go back to gaming outside of TSL and watch from the sidelines as I am now required to do so w/e.
Just stop with the "We have been more than fair and accommodating to him" and "TSL admins have done nothing by try to be fair in the situations that have arisen". From what I hear you were going to ban me immediately when the drop hack accusations came up if it wern't for Artosis defending me and telling u to talk to me 1st. I guess there was no 1 to tell you guys this time that maybe you should look at the replays before jumping to the ban wagon. I guess thats 1 thing your good at though.
And no need to say the good ol' "get lost" post because you simply don't care about me / spending time doing your "job". I am out of here, this was the worst ladder experience I have ever had. Yes a part of it was my fault but the others were simply having admins run the ladder who get a kick out of punishing / banning people and getting praise by mindless kids on a forum. What I learned in the MIStrZZZ case was that if you guys would actually spend as much time working on the individual problems in this ladder as you do trying to enhance reputation, do damage control and make fancy "look who we banned" posts to please the general audience, you guys would actually be good admins. Right now your just normal admins who handle situations with the attitude of "how will this affect us?" which isn't good. I won't look at this disgusting page again, so you are free to say w/e you want about what happened in our convo's and how "fairly" you treated me and not get called on it. Have fun.
Once again, I would care more if it wasn't Machine taking my spot. So I will end this with a good ol 1 2 3 Bryce "Machine" Bates FIGHTING!!!!!!!!!!!! SHOW EM WHAT CALI'S GOT!
C ya~ Savior offraced vs GoRush.
His Jaedong! His Jaedong! I must touch it!
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And savior got raped? :>
Relying on suspicion alone is hardly fair, solid proof is what makes decisions respectable. But hey, you guys run the show, G5 looked a like cool player to begin with anyways...
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Osaka27166 Posts
Its amazing that some people are able to play BW and have no problems whatsoever, yet it is those that cause problems and create drama that accuse organizers of incompetence.
G5, what do you think was different for you than the other 45 gamers that required no babysitting?
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On April 22 2008 13:11 Hot_Bid wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2008 13:09 G5 wrote:
???????????
You don't even ask for the reps you just see america vs america 3-0 and u ban me? To be quite honest I don't even care at this point. I think I would care more (actually I would be fucken furious) if it wouldn't mean Machine being kicked out since he is easily my best friend from sc or if the TL Admins didn't so strongly express how much they don't want me around for causing them to do some work. Not even asking for the replays and banning me is just proof of this. If any admins want the replays I will send them to be viewed but oops that would require another 15 minutes of work.
But let me be very clear about this, LzGaMeR is my friend (hang me now! what a crime!) and the only reason I asked him to game was because all B guys were dodging me with only 30 minutes or w/e to go. He told me when I asked him that he would feel bad if he knocked me out (ret said this to me too when I played him 1 or 2 days ago, lets all say I abused and took a free win vs him also) and I told him all dodge me and I need to play. So he agree'd and we played. Maybe there was a silent notion of giving me wins and he didn't try as hard but we never arranged anything and the games were legit as far as I'm concerned. So don't even talk about banning Lz.
Secondly - yes I made a mistake vs MIStrZZZ and I am sorry for that.
Thirdly - and I am VERY sick of hearing this, so let me make this clear. I did not drop hack anyone and I did not intentionally disc vs anyone. And I am assuming the 2 disc complaints were 1. MIStrZZZ which we covered and 2. The kid who got me reset for nothing.
Fourthly - I made the 2 complaints before the ladder ended and 1 after the ladder ended and the 1 which was accepted by HOTBID, KENNIGIT and a ICCup Admin was submitted before ladders end so I don't see why I am being held accountable for that either?
So basically I got banned for 2 things which were already dealt with (which unfortunately caused you admins to do your jobs, oh my gosh lets get out the hammer now) then playing my friend 3 times. I will admit that there was a feeling (especially when he went T) that he wasn't going to be trying to hard and I did/do feel a little dirty about that but I tried hard and so did he in w/e race he played (T being his only off-race). It's like KeSPa saying "lets ban sAviOr for going off-race vs ChoJJa. Obviously a free win!". once again let me make this clear that there was no pre-game arrangement of him giving me free wins. Simply that we were playing cuss I couldn't get a game and I think he was happy to play B+.
It's clear you guys don't like me so I will just go back to gaming outside of TSL and watch from the sidelines as I am now required to do so w/e.
Just stop with the "We have been more than fair and accommodating to him" and "TSL admins have done nothing by try to be fair in the situations that have arisen". From what I hear you were going to ban me immediately when the drop hack accusations came up if it wern't for Artosis defending me and telling u to talk to me 1st. I guess there was no 1 to tell you guys this time that maybe you should look at the replays before jumping to the ban wagon. I guess thats 1 thing your good at though.
And no need to say the good ol' "get lost" post because you simply don't care about me / spending time doing your "job". I am out of here, this was the worst ladder experience I have ever had. Yes a part of it was my fault but the others were simply having admins run the ladder who get a kick out of punishing / banning people and getting praise by mindless kids on a forum. What I learned in the MIStrZZZ case was that if you guys would actually spend as much time working on the individual problems in this ladder as you do trying to enhance reputation, do damage control and make fancy "look who we banned" posts to please the general audience, you guys would actually be good admins. Right now your just normal admins who handle situations with the attitude of "how will this affect us?" which isn't good. I won't look at this disgusting page again, so you are free to say w/e you want about what happened in our convo's and how "fairly" you treated me and not get called on it. Have fun.
Once again, I would care more if it wasn't Machine taking my spot. So I will end this with a good ol 1 2 3 Bryce "Machine" Bates FIGHTING!!!!!!!!!!!! SHOW EM WHAT CALI'S GOT!
C ya~ Savior offraced vs GoRush.
Yeah I can't believe he got that wrong -_-
And to G5, don't think that your whiny, bitchy post is going to get you anything here: pity, sympathy, or a place back in the top 48. All you've done is lose even more respect. Does anyone want to listen to a nerdy bad manner dick who doesn't know how to follow the rules? Insulting the TSL admins and teamliquid in general is just going to justify that you SHOULD be removed from the top 48. If you just calmed down, didn't act like a rude little bitch and at least appreciated the TSL admin's work and consideration you might get a bit more leniency. But so far you have proved that you are uncapable of being anything other than something that no one likes.
Seriously. No one cares about your opinion, no one cares that you think this was the worst ladder experience you've ever had, and no one cares about YOU. I know I'm sucking up here, but I have to say, so many people appreciate what TSL and the people who have organized TSL have done that your bitching won't change anything. So, in your own words, "get lost".
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On April 22 2008 13:19 Superiorwolf wrote:Yeah I can't believe he got that wrong -_-
Yeah, I can't believe that's the one thing you get out of this.
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On April 22 2008 13:16 Manifesto7 wrote:
Its amazing that some people are able to play BW and have no problems whatsoever, yet it is those that cause problems and create drama that accuse organizers of incompetence.
G5, what do you think was different for you than the other 45 gamers that required no babysitting?
agreed
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On April 22 2008 13:11 Hot_Bid wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2008 13:09 G5 wrote:
???????????
You don't even ask for the reps you just see america vs america 3-0 and u ban me? To be quite honest I don't even care at this point. I think I would care more (actually I would be fucken furious) if it wouldn't mean Machine being kicked out since he is easily my best friend from sc or if the TL Admins didn't so strongly express how much they don't want me around for causing them to do some work. Not even asking for the replays and banning me is just proof of this. If any admins want the replays I will send them to be viewed but oops that would require another 15 minutes of work.
But let me be very clear about this, LzGaMeR is my friend (hang me now! what a crime!) and the only reason I asked him to game was because all B guys were dodging me with only 30 minutes or w/e to go. He told me when I asked him that he would feel bad if he knocked me out (ret said this to me too when I played him 1 or 2 days ago, lets all say I abused and took a free win vs him also) and I told him all dodge me and I need to play. So he agree'd and we played. Maybe there was a silent notion of giving me wins and he didn't try as hard but we never arranged anything and the games were legit as far as I'm concerned. So don't even talk about banning Lz.
Secondly - yes I made a mistake vs MIStrZZZ and I am sorry for that.
Thirdly - and I am VERY sick of hearing this, so let me make this clear. I did not drop hack anyone and I did not intentionally disc vs anyone. And I am assuming the 2 disc complaints were 1. MIStrZZZ which we covered and 2. The kid who got me reset for nothing.
Fourthly - I made the 2 complaints before the ladder ended and 1 after the ladder ended and the 1 which was accepted by HOTBID, KENNIGIT and a ICCup Admin was submitted before ladders end so I don't see why I am being held accountable for that either?
So basically I got banned for 2 things which were already dealt with (which unfortunately caused you admins to do your jobs, oh my gosh lets get out the hammer now) then playing my friend 3 times. I will admit that there was a feeling (especially when he went T) that he wasn't going to be trying to hard and I did/do feel a little dirty about that but I tried hard and so did he in w/e race he played (T being his only off-race). It's like KeSPa saying "lets ban sAviOr for going off-race vs ChoJJa. Obviously a free win!". once again let me make this clear that there was no pre-game arrangement of him giving me free wins. Simply that we were playing cuss I couldn't get a game and I think he was happy to play B+.
It's clear you guys don't like me so I will just go back to gaming outside of TSL and watch from the sidelines as I am now required to do so w/e.
Just stop with the "We have been more than fair and accommodating to him" and "TSL admins have done nothing by try to be fair in the situations that have arisen". From what I hear you were going to ban me immediately when the drop hack accusations came up if it wern't for Artosis defending me and telling u to talk to me 1st. I guess there was no 1 to tell you guys this time that maybe you should look at the replays before jumping to the ban wagon. I guess thats 1 thing your good at though.
And no need to say the good ol' "get lost" post because you simply don't care about me / spending time doing your "job". I am out of here, this was the worst ladder experience I have ever had. Yes a part of it was my fault but the others were simply having admins run the ladder who get a kick out of punishing / banning people and getting praise by mindless kids on a forum. What I learned in the MIStrZZZ case was that if you guys would actually spend as much time working on the individual problems in this ladder as you do trying to enhance reputation, do damage control and make fancy "look who we banned" posts to please the general audience, you guys would actually be good admins. Right now your just normal admins who handle situations with the attitude of "how will this affect us?" which isn't good. I won't look at this disgusting page again, so you are free to say w/e you want about what happened in our convo's and how "fairly" you treated me and not get called on it. Have fun.
Once again, I would care more if it wasn't Machine taking my spot. So I will end this with a good ol 1 2 3 Bryce "Machine" Bates FIGHTING!!!!!!!!!!!! SHOW EM WHAT CALI'S GOT!
C ya~ Savior offraced vs GoRush.
oh SNAP!!
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ya I was feeling for ya machine, especially when you were like "I'm so nervous"... congrats!
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Canada7170 Posts
AWESOME.
I thought Machine's internet was down though?
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United States5262 Posts
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On April 22 2008 12:37 {88}iNcontroL wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2008 12:32 CubEdIn wrote:
Good decision. At least everyone who was saying Ultraling got Flaf to drop games will shut the hell up now.
Good luck testie. If you lose R1 you have to play techies for an entire day. WTf? Will you shut the hell up those people were RIGHT your defending of him was WRONG.
ROFL.
What I said from minute ONE was that the only thing he could have done wrong was play more than the allowed number of games. Please re-check my posts if you beg to differ. YOU (as well as others) were implying that Flaf lost on purpose to Ultraling, which would make it a clear case of abuse.
However, after the admins checked the replays, they didn't say anything about the games not being legit (as you and others stated over and over), but that he only played more games than he allowed.
That whole theory with Deathangel losing to Flaf who in turn lost to Ultraling, all on purpose is untrue. Your theory of "abusing a friend who wouldn't qualify anyway" was proven to be untrue.
So no, I won't shut the hell up. I was right when I said the games were legit. You were wrong when you implied Flaf dropped them on purpose. Capisci?
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Damn the Kill:death ratio's in G5's 3 games are WtF. I guess replay analysis is required to ensure there was no purposeful game dropping, but if in fact everyone was dodging him like he claims, then as long as he didn't join the games with the intent to rig the results....
While it does seem like abuse, he didn't break any rules. Maybe LZ tried to experiment or something in those games and didn't want to risk his TSL account or something. At any rate, although smurfs should be banned in future tournaments, there was in fact nothing banning it in this one, and it feels weird banning someone for that.
And as for the previous "abuses", I was under the impression that they were all resolved as per the usual procedures. Complaining about use of the ladder's anti-abuse system seems :-/ if the end consensus was that there was no abuse in game. I mean, if I appeared to have been drop hacked in a tournament where every game counts and I was winning, I would complain too. Sure it turned out to be a mistake, but thats why the anti-abuse people exist...why compain about them being put to use
Also simply because there were complaints against you does not mean that should be a reason to ban unless the complaints were checked and found to be legit (aka he actually was abusing, as per the complaint said). I don't know what happened to the 3 complaints mentioned in the OP, but all that was stated was that there were complaints against him, not that he was determined to be guilty as charged, and I was under the impression that people are innocent until proven guilty. Otherwise organizing compaints against competitors would be a nice way to ensure a better chance at winning 
So yea, I don't think G5 should've been banned unless the games are determined to be purposefully lost (which is not stated either way in the OP, although from the game summary on ICCUP they sure look that way).
EDIT: LZ played a few games on that smurf during TSL, including one against Naz and Inc, so it's not like he randomly revived that account for the sole purpose of playing G5...although the games are spread out thinly and there's not that many of them.
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is awesome32277 Posts
On April 22 2008 15:17 Dinosaur wrote: meep ... meep
HAHAHAAHAHHA i was not expecting this hahahahah thank you
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is awesome32277 Posts
On April 21 2008 22:21 3D.TemujiN wrote:
Smuft has just resetted his account ;/
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Great organisation from admins, good luck to all!
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is awesome32277 Posts
On April 22 2008 15:35 jimminy_kriket wrote:
what place was he in?
He was 46 like 1 day before ladder closing or so. But it's hard what place he would end because people played a lot towards the end. Also:
On April 21 2008 22:30 Hot_Bid wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2008 22:21 3D.TemujiN wrote:
Smuft has just resetted his account ;/ yeah his last few games he went 0-2 vs Notforu, 0-2 vs Kr, 0-2 vs Lazur and probably decided he couldn't qualify
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YOU CALL THIS SLEEPING ITW?!?!
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On April 22 2008 15:40 MYM.Testie wrote:
YOU CALL THIS SLEEPING ITW?!?!
Addicted never sleep :D, gratz Nick and don´t try to be lazy 
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On April 22 2008 11:16 Kennigit wrote:
<font size = "4">Top 48 Changes</font>
G5 -> G5 played 3 games near the end of the ladder vs a second iccup account started by LzGaMeR where he won all 3 games (pvz, pvp, pvt). While this alone would not warrent a ban, G5 has come up on the TSL abuse radar far too often for one tournament and the evidence compounds so greatly that we cannot ignore it. This includes 2 disconnect complaints against him, 3 noted abuse games at the end of the ladder and some underhanded and deceitful complaint requests long after their play dates. TSL admins have done nothing by try to be fair in the situations that have arisen, especially with G5 but the evidence against him leaves us with little choice but for his removal from the top 48.
So basically you ban him, because you don't like him - I neither care about him (i don't know who he is), not play the ladder myself, but this is clearly unprofessional.
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No, it's not. G5 clearly abused and tried to get away with it. Getting a friend to play his off race vs you is akin to a free win. Maybe it takes a bit longer and looks more legit, but the outcome is still the same. Admins did the right thing here.
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On April 22 2008 15:54 RowdierBob wrote:
No, it's not. G5 clearly abused and tried to get away with it. Getting a friend to play his off race vs you is akin to a free win. Maybe it takes a bit longer and looks more legit, but the outcome is still the same. Admins did the right thing here.
On April 22 2008 11:16 Kennigit wrote:
While this alone would not warrent a ban ....
This latter quote here just means, that they are not banning him in accordance with any of the rules, but rather for some reason decided that a bunch of half-proofs is proof enough. To repeat myself - I don't care about the particular individuals involved, but this is people's court style.
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On April 22 2008 13:19 Superiorwolf wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2008 13:11 Hot_Bid wrote:On April 22 2008 13:09 G5 wrote:
???????????
You don't even ask for the reps you just see america vs america 3-0 and u ban me? To be quite honest I don't even care at this point. I think I would care more (actually I would be fucken furious) if it wouldn't mean Machine being kicked out since he is easily my best friend from sc or if the TL Admins didn't so strongly express how much they don't want me around for causing them to do some work. Not even asking for the replays and banning me is just proof of this. If any admins want the replays I will send them to be viewed but oops that would require another 15 minutes of work.
But let me be very clear about this, LzGaMeR is my friend (hang me now! what a crime!) and the only reason I asked him to game was because all B guys were dodging me with only 30 minutes or w/e to go. He told me when I asked him that he would feel bad if he knocked me out (ret said this to me too when I played him 1 or 2 days ago, lets all say I abused and took a free win vs him also) and I told him all dodge me and I need to play. So he agree'd and we played. Maybe there was a silent notion of giving me wins and he didn't try as hard but we never arranged anything and the games were legit as far as I'm concerned. So don't even talk about banning Lz.
Secondly - yes I made a mistake vs MIStrZZZ and I am sorry for that.
Thirdly - and I am VERY sick of hearing this, so let me make this clear. I did not drop hack anyone and I did not intentionally disc vs anyone. And I am assuming the 2 disc complaints were 1. MIStrZZZ which we covered and 2. The kid who got me reset for nothing.
Fourthly - I made the 2 complaints before the ladder ended and 1 after the ladder ended and the 1 which was accepted by HOTBID, KENNIGIT and a ICCup Admin was submitted before ladders end so I don't see why I am being held accountable for that either?
So basically I got banned for 2 things which were already dealt with (which unfortunately caused you admins to do your jobs, oh my gosh lets get out the hammer now) then playing my friend 3 times. I will admit that there was a feeling (especially when he went T) that he wasn't going to be trying to hard and I did/do feel a little dirty about that but I tried hard and so did he in w/e race he played (T being his only off-race). It's like KeSPa saying "lets ban sAviOr for going off-race vs ChoJJa. Obviously a free win!". once again let me make this clear that there was no pre-game arrangement of him giving me free wins. Simply that we were playing cuss I couldn't get a game and I think he was happy to play B+.
It's clear you guys don't like me so I will just go back to gaming outside of TSL and watch from the sidelines as I am now required to do so w/e.
Just stop with the "We have been more than fair and accommodating to him" and "TSL admins have done nothing by try to be fair in the situations that have arisen". From what I hear you were going to ban me immediately when the drop hack accusations came up if it wern't for Artosis defending me and telling u to talk to me 1st. I guess there was no 1 to tell you guys this time that maybe you should look at the replays before jumping to the ban wagon. I guess thats 1 thing your good at though.
And no need to say the good ol' "get lost" post because you simply don't care about me / spending time doing your "job". I am out of here, this was the worst ladder experience I have ever had. Yes a part of it was my fault but the others were simply having admins run the ladder who get a kick out of punishing / banning people and getting praise by mindless kids on a forum. What I learned in the MIStrZZZ case was that if you guys would actually spend as much time working on the individual problems in this ladder as you do trying to enhance reputation, do damage control and make fancy "look who we banned" posts to please the general audience, you guys would actually be good admins. Right now your just normal admins who handle situations with the attitude of "how will this affect us?" which isn't good. I won't look at this disgusting page again, so you are free to say w/e you want about what happened in our convo's and how "fairly" you treated me and not get called on it. Have fun.
Once again, I would care more if it wasn't Machine taking my spot. So I will end this with a good ol 1 2 3 Bryce "Machine" Bates FIGHTING!!!!!!!!!!!! SHOW EM WHAT CALI'S GOT!
C ya~ Savior offraced vs GoRush. Yeah I can't believe he got that wrong -_- And to G5, don't think that your whiny, bitchy post is going to get you anything here: pity, sympathy, or a place back in the top 48. All you've done is lose even more respect. Does anyone want to listen to a nerdy bad manner dick who doesn't know how to follow the rules? Insulting the TSL admins and teamliquid in general is just going to justify that you SHOULD be removed from the top 48. If you just calmed down, didn't act like a rude little bitch and at least appreciated the TSL admin's work and consideration you might get a bit more leniency. But so far you have proved that you are uncapable of being anything other than something that no one likes. Seriously. No one cares about your opinion, no one cares that you think this was the worst ladder experience you've ever had, and no one cares about YOU. I know I'm sucking up here, but I have to say, so many people appreciate what TSL and the people who have organized TSL have done that your bitching won't change anything. So, in your own words, "get lost".
Hello and excuse me for being no one: I care. I do appreciate TSL but get your head around the fact that that doesn't make it godlike anyhow.
This guy made a long explanative post as to why he thought he was "cheated" upon. He acknowledges his wrongs. The fact that the best answer a leading admin in this event can come up with is "Savior offraced vs GoRush" tells a lot, although the reasons stated in this thread justifying the ban seemed weak enough.
(Your post on the other hand is filled with dick, bitch and ... dick. Good side is I'm sure I don't care about your opinion.)
I believe admins are making this guy's point. This look like a simple "I just don't want to care about you and I don't like you". Very un-admin like.
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If you guys can read the first post, its made perfectly clear why he was banned.
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is awesome32277 Posts
On April 22 2008 15:40 MYM.Testie wrote:
YOU CALL THIS SLEEPING ITW?!?!
Sleep = browsing tl for a while, then going to sleep. I though that was a given. (Don't check the time).
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On April 22 2008 16:23 Cesar2000 wrote:
If you guys can read the first post, its made perfectly clear why he was banned.
If you can read 0z' and mine, you'll notice that the thing we question is how legitimate (or weak) those clear reasons were.
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Australia4514 Posts
smuft lost a lot of games in the last day. then reset.
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leg how do you think you are going to do?
it's hard to tell what kind of shape you are in from your record. but seeing as how it seems like you didn't have to mass play, im guessing you're in at least decent shape?
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Very unprofessional. I thought G5 was being a bit of a dick when he tried to get MistrZZZ banned, but how is making an accusation that turns out to wrong against the rules?
Look at the replays; if they look fishy then maybe you have a case, but he certainly isn't the only person to get last minute wins. Even Legionnaire has wins against C players. If you had wanted to justify bans like this, you should have made some explicit rules about abuse at the start of the ladder stage, because right now, basically no one you have banned has broken the rules.
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On April 22 2008 12:21 Hot_Bid wrote:
It wasn't really a smurf because the second account wasn't registered in the TSL team. I agree, next time we will make a rule against playing with a separate, non-TSL account and interacting with the TSL ladder. But this time so many players were doing it that it'd be unfair and impossible to go back and try to fix all of it.
I'm sure this would be really hard to do. Just a thought, why don't you start a possible TSL2 at the start of a iccup season? Would make things a lot easier.
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9 games per day vs the same opponent?!?!? Maaaaan u are incouraging ABUSING on your ladder!
I strongly advise this limit to be set a 3 MAXIMUM x day vs same opponent! There are a milion kids to play with, outhere ... don't need to play your best friend 9 times and share points ... really this is not a good parameter.
Do something
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The number allowed increases for higher ranked players. There really AREN'T a "million kids" out there to play with for the B+ and A- players. But D players for instance cannot play 9 games I'm fairly sure.
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On April 22 2008 17:09 IH4t3z3rg wrote:
9 games per day vs the same opponent?!?!? Maaaaan u are incouraging ABUSING on your ladder!
I strongly advise this limit to be set a 3 MAXIMUM x day vs same opponent! There are a milion kids to play with, outhere ... don't need to play your best friend 9 times and share points ... really this is not a good parameter.
Do something
9 is ok, in B level its so hard to find opponents...
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Come on people... Playing against your friend while he off races 1 hour out from qualifying deadline when you desperately need points to get top 48?
This isn't a court of law - you take into account the balance of probabilities which point to abuse. Imagine if the cases were reversed and Testie was playing P against Mondi's T. Do you think G5 wouldn't be kicking up a stink then?
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GJ guys, i shouldn't have doubted you're going to make the right decision.
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On April 22 2008 11:54 HotZhot wrote:
Amazingly proffesional and well handled, I seriously cannot express how much TSL owns everything else at the moment. Keep the good work going guys, we (me) really appreciate it.
I agree. Especially when you think of the fact that it is the first big event in this caliber and then its often a tightrope walk when there are not yet exact rules and definitions for every possible situation where players can take dubois or unfair advantages.
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Machine played after ladder finished i dont understand, fenix must be instead Machine.
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so the rule is max 9 games... if there are 10 u remove the 10th game, yes ? then remove chosen's last game vs david where he won. they played 10 games in the same day. he will get disqualified if u follow the same policy as in ultraling's case.
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Seriously, this could be settled by having admin or whoever look at replay. I'm sure the game itself is fucked up handed over. One of the games had a 85-8 kill ratio according to ICCUP ffs, but still, the reasons given to ban G5 are just bs -.-
Much ezier to just watch replay imo...they look pretty fucked up.
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On April 22 2008 17:39 RowdierBob wrote:
Come on people... Playing against your friend while he off races 1 hour out from qualifying deadline when you desperately need points to get top 48?
This isn't a court of law - you take into account the balance of probabilities which point to abuse. Imagine if the cases were reversed and Testie was playing P against Mondi's T. Do you think G5 wouldn't be kicking up a stink then?
It is important how the ban is worded - they did not say - his friend offraced against him - hence the ban, they said in effect, he is a whiny little bitch, that causes trouble - while this last statement may be true, I don't see how it makes him more bannable, epsecially in a tournament, which tries to make things profesinal, and esp. where money is involved.
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[ i was typing up a longer reply, but its late and im not as articulate with my words, so ill just leave the last lines i had ]
imagine trying to run a league if everyone dicked around (for example, look at bw's former ladders) - nothing would get done, and it would fail. thats why TSL's success hinges on the community
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why ban only g5 ? ban lz too.. they "abused" togheter
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Braavos36390 Posts
G5, Shiv, 0z, are people that simply disagree with our judgment.
Shiv and 0z are spectators, bitching from the comfort of their own chairs with little to no experience actually dealing with what we have to. They and G5 think the ban reasons were weak, we in the administration know the reasons were strong.
We just disagree, and fortunately for we are the ones making the decisions, not them. This is the last thing I'm saying about this subject. Far too much of my life in the last week has been wasted resolving and caring about a small number of people who cause a disproportionately large amount of trouble.
We didn't HAVE to ban G5, just like we didn't have to spend 10 hours a day pro-actively seting up a cross-site catching of hackers through flag's method, or spend countless hours investigating abuse incidents on the ladder. All of that would be much easier to just ignore, let everyone play, and ban noone. Surely nobody would have blamed us if that was the case, given how much effort had to be expended to do all of that.
There will always be people completely dissatisfied, who will find complaints and whine about virtually anything. Be glad these people are not running your tournament, because true improvement and progress will never come from them.
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hot bid
answer this " so the rule is max 9 games... if there are 10 u remove the 10th game, yes ? then remove chosen's last game vs david where he won. they played 10 games in the same day. he will get disqualified if u follow the same policy as in ultraling's case."
and why not disq lzgamer also ?
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So what G5 is basically saying is that he could find noone to play with?
Even the koreans dodged him?
I find that hard to believe...
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On April 22 2008 18:38 Ota Solgryn wrote:
So what G5 is basically saying is that he could find noone to play with?
Even the koreans dodged him?
I find that hard to believe...
shiiiiiiiiit
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@tehsex
i dont know how you are positioned to this cases. put try to put this exact rule phrase away for one moment and go inside yourself and think if the situation of chosen is comparable with that from ultraling. chosen an american progamer played 10 times vs squall an spanish progamer. both win and loses vs eachother. do you really think there is one possible reason for abuse or rule breaking to intentionally play 10 games instead of 9 vs squal ?!
how is this comparable with someone who played on the first and second page almost every game vs a obvious weaker compatriot and clanmate beside some rule jumping? in a german forum we ones talked about mondragon played often vs white_ra and one was a iccup admin. he explained to us this rule is more a guideline than an exact rule phrase. So if there is a looking for an abuse it also always depends on the situation and discretion of the admin.
dont know if i can explain it good in english but even in front of court the judge got discretionary powers till one day there might be cases in the past that they can use as guideline.
so in ultraling there is a logic to consider a intentionally abuse. in chosen vs david this doesnt make any sense. but thats just my opinion.
for me is enough that i can see hotbid and all the staff take decisions very serious and i am thankful to all the energy they spend to make this event as fair as possible. so i could also live with decisions i couldnt agree as i see they really took it serious.
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On April 22 2008 18:14 Hot_Bid wrote:
G5, Shiv, 0z, are people that simply disagree with our judgment.
Shiv and 0z are spectators, bitching from the comfort of their own chairs with little to no experience actually dealing with what we have to. They and G5 think the ban reasons were weak, we in the administration know the reasons were strong.
We just disagree, and fortunately for we are the ones making the decisions, not them. This is the last thing I'm saying about this subject. Far too much of my life in the last week has been wasted resolving and caring about a small number of people who cause a disproportionately large amount of trouble.
We didn't HAVE to ban G5, just like we didn't have to spend 10 hours a day pro-actively seting up a cross-site catching of hackers through flag's method, or spend countless hours investigating abuse incidents on the ladder. All of that would be much easier to just ignore, let everyone play, and ban noone. Surely nobody would have blamed us if that was the case, given how much effort had to be expended to do all of that.
There will always be people completely dissatisfied, who will find complaints and whine about virtually anything. Be glad these people are not running your tournament, because true improvement and progress will never come from them.
Wait up here. I made remarks about this decision. I "complained" over a moronic comment made by superiorwolf over G5's statement that i found educated and deserved. Now here's an other remark: I found it very comfortable to go with the "we've done so much good", "people like us for that" hence "everybody agrees on our every decision" kind of logic.
I personnally respect no one more than the TL.net administration for the amount of work they've done all these years and have thanked it many times, but I simply disagree with this decision. I'm pretty sure we're not happy fews on this case either. I expressed myself with moderation, now if you want to label this as "bitching", me as a "completely dissatisfied" whiner, do as you please. That's cheap, ad hominem and probably a good way to not paying attention to people's points.
I intend to keep expressing myself whenever it pleases me on these matters. If you can't sort moderate comments from rants then yes, administration on this site must be hell for you. The day TL.net only wishes for comments that agree with its every staff members, I won't be a burden for long.
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Basically Hot_Bid's argument is: we work a lot, thanks us, don't look for mistakes.
Fine, the ladder looks great until now (really). No further comments from me. Just think if maybe improvement and progress don't somtimes come from people who don't just say 'Bravo' all the time.
And yeah, i have a comfortable chair, I hope that's not a problem.
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South Africa4316 Posts
Shiv, don't throw a hissy fit about this. I don't want to bring personal lives into this, but HotBid has sacrificed way too much to keep this tournament under control, and he probably just didn't have time to read through your comment properly, so I apologize if you got labeled unfairly.
Understand that our decisions here concern much more than what the public is aware of. G5 has repeatedly shown himself to be an abuser of the system, and that will not be allowed in this tournament. His "framing" of Mistrzzz itself should be enough to warrant a ban, but we decided that perhaps our initial judgement was overly harsh so we should give him another chance. He repayed this by constantly trying to find ways to give himself an unfair advantage in the tournament.
He is fortunate that this is only a disqualification, and not a permanent ban from all future TL events. If the opening post does not make this clear, I apologize.
tehsex, we are looking into the matter, but don't worry, our rules apply equally to all players, no matter who they are.
0z, as I explained earlier, we did not ban G5 because we do not like him. What you are doing is pointless though, and I suggest that you stop using our wording to find secondary meanings to what we said. The abuse at the end alone "does not warrant a ban" according to Kennigit, but the sum of all G5's actions do. He has shown that he will use any way possible to qualify for the ladder, and there has been many minor abuses by him in the past.
I ask that you stop trying to "interpret" our words, and simply take them at face value. All of us are heavily swamped with work (both for the TSL and in private), and we cannot spend hours making sure that all our posts can only be interpreted in one way. Accept our posts on face value, and trust that we do not make any decision lightly.
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Thanks for the explanation and sorry for the trouble!
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This is bullshit, what the fuck guys? What the FUCK?
How can we have an awesome money ladder/tourney and STILL manage to fag this shit up with hacks/abuse/overall shadiness/stupidity?
Maybe the next TSL should be fucking invite only.
Another thing, does abuse have to be EXPLICITLY mentioned as a reason for ban? REALLY? I feel bad for G5 honestly, he played all those games only to get kicked for a reason he himself knew he would get in trouble for (among other things). Maybe the ban is too harsh or maybe isn't harsh enough, I'm going to have to trust the TL staff on this one.
In addition, as far as I'm concerned whatever Mani says is fucking set in stone.
Edit: so it wasn't a ban, like I said trust TL.
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Abuse in inevitable. Most players do the right thing by the system, but there are always going to be those who ruin it for the many.
G5 did what he did, it has been dealt with. Whether or not people think it was the right thing is irrelevant now. A decision has been made, so it's time to move on.
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Osaka27166 Posts
On April 22 2008 19:09 0z wrote:
Basically Hot_Bid's argument is: we work a lot, thanks us, don't look for mistakes.
Fine, the ladder looks great until now (really). No further comments from me. Just think if maybe improvement and progress don't somtimes come from people who don't just say 'Bravo' all the time.
And yeah, i have a comfortable chair, I hope that's not a problem.
No, HB's argument was we work really hard, thus we have a lot more information and experience dealing with these issues than you do. The decisions you are questioning are a result of a long and exhaustive process in which we analyzed all the possibilities. You are welcome to your opinion, but the TSL team has made the decision that it felt was best for the ladder.
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Braavos36390 Posts
Constructive, informed criticism is great. We actually fixed a lot of the problems with the ladder this way. Many of the top players spent time suggesting and discussing things with our staff, along with several others who volunteered their time and effort (flag being the most notable right now). Many others contributed by finding us music, writing interview questions, talking about format, donating art, or even something as small as finding grammatical or format or timing errors.
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Belgium9950 Posts
Lol G5, 3 games vs an offrace playing friend that all last under 10 minutes (for TvP thats quite unusual I guess). And having that happen after numerous complaints..
I don't know why people doubt this decision
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Anyone with an ounce of common sense can see what G5 did.
Maybe he thought it wasn't against the rules, but the admins have found that it was.
Case closed people, move on!
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People constantly confunse the right to play with a freeride to being a bitch.
It's the same when some people jump at iccup staff for being to slow or incompetent for whatever reason.
It's truly wonderfull how the majority of players are able to just play and have a good (or hard) time climbing the ladder. Lot's of excitement here and there and a league that, without a doubt, generates a ton of work for the admins but keeps on riding the path of success.
Some players need to just enjoy the game, maybe take a step back and think about why they're allways in the line of fire.
With eager i await the next step of tsl.
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"tehsex, we are looking into the matter, but don't worry, our rules apply equally to all players, no matter who they are." daigomi
if theres no discrimination then i really dont see whats taking so long to penalize chosen and lz...
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Ideally all players should play with only sportsmanship in mind. This means always playing your best, winning through fair means (by this I mean no cheating), not handpicking opponents or matchups, not using friendships to exploit tournament rules. I feel that several players have faltered to live up to this ideal. And I am not sad at all to see some of these players get punished for it.
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South Africa4316 Posts
On April 22 2008 21:17 tehsex wrote:
"tehsex, we are looking into the matter, but don't worry, our rules apply equally to all players, no matter who they are." daigomi
if theres no discrimination then i really dont see whats taking so long to penalize chosen and lz...
Because I'm not in control of looking at abusers, and unfortunately everyone is very busy. HotBid is writing his finals this week, which is why he hasn't had the time to spend listening to every complaint.
All I can say is that we are handling it. I don't think you would have the dedication to spend 10 hours looking at abusers the day before your finals began, so just appreciate what our admins are putting into this, and have faith that we will address all issues as they are brought to our attention.
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Kennigit
Canada19447 Posts
Hotbid and i spent 10 hours straight on TSL yesterday....actually sorry, 10 hours after the ladder ended. Cut us some slack
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Thanks to the Staff for the great job, give them love not shouts
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Calgary25993 Posts
On April 22 2008 21:17 tehsex wrote:
"tehsex, we are looking into the matter, but don't worry, our rules apply equally to all players, no matter who they are." daigomi
if theres no discrimination then i really dont see whats taking so long to penalize chosen and lz...
They're looking into it. Jesus.
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i didn't have the time to read through all 6 pages, so i'm sorry if it was mentioned before! but, what about mistrzzz games vs hannigan....he played 13 in a row while being rank "b" - according to the rules this isn't allowed, too - or am i mistaken?
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God if I hear one more person ask why X player hasn't been adjusted for too many games yet or why they haven't announced the top 48 yet I'm going to suicide. They've already said clearly that it will take them a little time. They aren't machines (outside of the bedroom).
G5 knew better than to play his friend for 3 wins to get him in the top 48. I'm sure he knew while he was doing it that it was going to be a problem.
I understand why some people would want something to be specifically in the rules in order for it to warrant a DQ, but sometimes you have to just let people use their god given ability to reason.
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life would be not life without drama. TSL admins are doing a great job. Congratulations are in order for them. Thanks for doing such events for the foreign community!
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you guys act like i used the account only to play g5... i played on my other account quite a few other games while TSL was going on (WITH MY OFF RACES SO YALL CALL THEM) far as i knew everyone was playing with multi accounts, didnt hear i was not supose to... allrdy said i was sorry that i played g5 in legit games...in the last hour with my terran and protoss.. had no idea it woulda turned out like this, it was simply a bo5 on maybe.. my worst map ever.. KATRINA or maybe we should just call that map *Auir* since thats what it is =D
here's you guys a rep from my other "account" beating leggionair pvp 30 min game.. since my off race is now considered a free win~ enjoy ^^
http://www.sendspace.com/file/d5y6vh
whats done is done.. admins have mad there ruleing or call so~ thats that; and i wont argue with it. as im sad to see g5 go.. becasue he is such a good gamer.. just wasnt smart enough to dodge the koreans on the last week :p im happy to see machine get to qual~ he's a real good friend of mine~ ^^
gOgO Machine Fighting!!~~~
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Norway28747 Posts
really.. you're his friend.. you're not a terran player.. he needs a couple hundred points to get top 48.. you play best of 3 against him tvp katrina with a nick where you don't care too much.......
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i only played terran 1 game =)
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G5 Why don't you just drop the matter when you know playing 3 games vs a friend who offraced vs you in the last 30 minutes is not gonna fool anyone. You've got a lot of guts trying to defend yourself after that.
It's not that they removed you because they don't like you, it's that you got yourself removed because you always get yourself into shit when others don't. See the pattern here? You're the problem. It's funny how some people think that G5 got removed for being nothing but trouble, his troublemaking skills just make it more believable that G5 is the kind of guy who would do this sort of thing. In the end it's those 3 games that got him set back, and very rightfully so.
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Hi, Ultraling asked me to put together this post for you guys.
Oh and btw the rule with "no more than 9 games in same day vs same play" was written by LRM)Scythe on iccup.com like few hours ago. See this link, post #75.
Scythe saying "Thanks for remind me, let me go update the rules"...
Also many players played more than 9 games vs same person in same day and if you would delete all games of them too, this would happen:
TSL-Redeemer out of top 48:
Look how redeemer beat TSL-Oystein 9-3 in the last day of ICCup, so if last 3 games would be deleted redeemer would have 8708 (current) - 291 points, that would be 8417, out of top 48.
So, iNc, how do you like them apples? You go around yelling that people are abusing their friends to get an advantage in the last day and you play TWELVE games vs Oystein? 9-3 at B+ level is pretty much the same amount of points gained as Ultraling's 7-1 games. And since all of the games were probably legit (yours and his) then you should both be reduced to 9 games per day. Correct?
Also,
White-Ra, Mondragon, Boxerz, Hannigan, Xiaozi, Strelok, all have over 10 games a day at one point or another, and some (like White-Ra) would fall out of top16 if you remove all games over 10. Now these games were not played in the last day, but if the rule sticks then it should apply to everyone. Right?
Either way, while others might get away, you should definitely check out Redeemer's games. I guess he thought that the "blame everyone else and hope nobody will notice you" tactic will work.
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Hmm i would understand if the admins would remove those games, but if you think about it the case is quite different.
Ultraling played against Flaf who doesn't participate in TSL, or at least not with that account. So he probably didn't really mind losing points so that his teammate gets into top48.
Oystein and Inc on the other hand weren't far from each other before those games. Both wanted to qualify and oyestein lost points in that session, so that he missed the top48 later on.
The White-ra and mondragon case is even more different. They were both aiming for top16 and the games were on A-. You can't abuse on A- in a way that both players benefit.
They need need a clearer rule regarding this for the next season, but getting fast wins against a friend who is not competing for the top48 himself right before the end of the ladder is suspicious.
If they wouldn't do anything about games looking so suspicious then it would be too easy to abuse if you need a few more points at the end of the qualification.
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On April 23 2008 02:09 DTF-ZeRo wrote:
Hmm i would understand if the admins would remove those games, but if you think about it the case is quite different.
Ultraling played against Flaf who doesn't participate in TSL, or at least not with that account. So he probably didn't really mind losing points so that his teammate gets into top48.
Oystein and Inc on the other hand weren't far from each other before those games. Both wanted to qualify and oyestein lost points in that session, so that he missed the top48 later on.
The White-ra and mondragon case is even more different. They were both aiming for top16 and the games were on A-. You can't abuse on A- in a way that both players benefit.
They need need a clearer rule regarding this for the next season, but getting fast wins against a friend who is not competing for the top48 himself right before the end of the ladder is suspicious.
If they wouldn't do anything about games looking so suspicious then it would be too easy to abuse if you need a few more points at the end of the qualification.
You are right, Mondragon, White-Ra and others probably had nothing to benefit from playing more than 10 games. And regarding the Oystein and Inc both wanted to qualify, that's irrelevant. I never said the games were not legit. They probably are. But so are Ultraling's.
And as long as the rules say you can play vs whoever you want, and the games are fair, then the only rule that was broke was the match limit per day rule. And both iNc and Ultraling broke this rule. So they should be both penalized. No question about it.
I mean seriously, are you going to defend inc by saying "they were both in TSL so it's ok?". You either respect rules or you don't.
Please don't let this degenerate back to "X let Y win" that's not the issue here, that's for admins to decide by watching replays. The only issue here is the game limit rule.
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Replace an abuser, with an ex hacker ^^
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hmm i saw this post on gg.net , by one of the crewmembers : ehm, haypro got "caught" hacking less than a year ago. Why ain't he banned?
And got confused my self ?
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On April 23 2008 02:31 raga4ka wrote:
hmm i saw this post on gg.net , by one of the crewmembers : ehm, haypro got "caught" hacking less than a year ago. Why ain't he banned?
And got confused my self ?
Because he was using Oblivion as an observer to a game. He said he's done it so he could see people's mineral count/supply/etc. IIRC there are no replays of him using oblivion in an actual game.
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drama~~!
But you gotta expect that after such a tough ladder with a lot of time and effort spended for the top players.
I think the admins has done an awesome job so far, thanks for doing this!
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On April 23 2008 02:15 CubEdIn wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2008 02:09 DTF-ZeRo wrote:
Hmm i would understand if the admins would remove those games, but if you think about it the case is quite different.
Ultraling played against Flaf who doesn't participate in TSL, or at least not with that account. So he probably didn't really mind losing points so that his teammate gets into top48.
Oystein and Inc on the other hand weren't far from each other before those games. Both wanted to qualify and oyestein lost points in that session, so that he missed the top48 later on.
The White-ra and mondragon case is even more different. They were both aiming for top16 and the games were on A-. You can't abuse on A- in a way that both players benefit.
They need need a clearer rule regarding this for the next season, but getting fast wins against a friend who is not competing for the top48 himself right before the end of the ladder is suspicious.
If they wouldn't do anything about games looking so suspicious then it would be too easy to abuse if you need a few more points at the end of the qualification. You are right, Mondragon, White-Ra and others probably had nothing to benefit from playing more than 10 games. And regarding the Oystein and Inc both wanted to qualify, that's irrelevant. I never said the games were not legit. They probably are. But so are Ultraling's. And as long as the rules say you can play vs whoever you want, and the games are fair, then the only rule that was broke was the match limit per day rule. And both iNc and Ultraling broke this rule. So they should be both penalized. No question about it. I mean seriously, are you going to defend inc by saying "they were both in TSL so it's ok?". You either respect rules or you don't. Please don't let this degenerate back to "X let Y win" that's not the issue here, that's for admins to decide by watching replays. The only issue here is the game limit rule.
Ok as i think about that again you are right.If we believe that the games were legit and as both ultraling's and incontrol's games were played on the B Ranks (I think the amount of games gets higher from D to A) that would be the same case and so all of those games >9 on one day have to be removed.
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While I don't necessarily agree with the Administrations reasoning, I do respect their authority as the Administrators and have confidence that they are making the right decisions, no matter the reasoning behind them.
I am resigned to not dispute their decisions in an event of this magnitude, but do pray for maturity to be upheld by everyone.
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Sorry to bump this, but has any official seen this? I mean, I'd like to hear a reply from someone in the staff. Does the rule apply to everyone or not?
I'm not saying that the admins aren't doing their job, I know you guys worked hard for this, and situations like these are piling up the crap. But it's an honest question, and it deserves an honest response. There are many players who broke the 9 games/day rule, and yet only one was sanctioned. How come?
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On April 23 2008 05:14 CubEdIn wrote:
Sorry to bump this, but has any official seen this? I mean, I'd like to hear a reply from someone in the staff. Does the rule apply to everyone or not?
I'm not saying that the admins aren't doing their job, I know you guys worked hard for this, and situations like these are piling up the crap. But it's an honest question, and it deserves an honest response. There are many players who broke the 9 games/day rule, and yet only one was sanctioned. How come?
In the thread that was deleted, I think I remember that they said they also took off 4 game's worth of points from a match between White-Ra and Mondragon but the point difference wasn't big enough to really matter. But it's a lot tighter at the bottom of the ladder so you notice it a more.
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I didn't read much into the babbling back and forth, but It's a sad inevitability that people will ALWAYS find a way to dance around the rules, so when their asses get caught they can always point out the discrepancies.
It is obvious what happened, and why, and I find it mind-boggling that some people can actually talk like they know what happens behind-the-scenes. I'm sorry, but if ONE PLAYER brings so much goddamn trouble to the table, cheater or not, kick his sorry ass to the curb because he wasn't going to win or even place in the money.
I will hand it to G5 for at least providing a semi-logical explanation for his actions, although there are no justifications for this blatant abuse.
Cheers
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This is getting interesting .... with this new rule (i guess it can be called new since it showed up on the list some 8 hours ago) stating clearly what is the max number of games one can play during a day - D/C levels: 5, B level: 9, A level: 13 - and beeing applied retroactively. I guess we could see even more shifts in the rankings.... more drama .... possibly even changing the brackets. And i'm out of popcorn.....
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Thing is I remember in the ladder thread in the first weak or so of the ladder a couple of people mentioned this rule (Don't recall if it was Hotbid or an ICCUP admin.) So it can't be a completely new rule. (It had to do with testie playing 12 games vs the same person at D+)
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the admins have made their decisions so deal with it. this is the best that can be done. A truely fair ladder would require an auto matching system.
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Well, iCCup.Scythe was "rushing" to add it / update it some hours ago.... that's why i said it's new...
Anyway, it doesn't really matters since it seems that quite a number of players didn't follow it and are about to lose points. Koreans never get this kind of drama ... they have no idea what they'r missing.
ps: had no idea about testie .... wow ... 12 games lol. well, i guess it was an honour for TSL_Nosu to play that many games against the best foreign random player.
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Belgium9950 Posts
On April 23 2008 01:41 CubEdIn wrote:Hi, Ultraling asked me to put together this post for you guys. Oh and btw the rule with "no more than 9 games in same day vs same play" was written by LRM)Scythe on iccup.com like few hours ago. See this link, post #75. Scythe saying "Thanks for remind me, let me go update the rules"... Also many players played more than 9 games vs same person in same day and if you would delete all games of them too, this would happen: TSL-Redeemer out of top 48: Look how redeemer beat TSL-Oystein 9-3 in the last day of ICCup, so if last 3 games would be deleted redeemer would have 8708 (current) - 291 points, that would be 8417, out of top 48. So, iNc, how do you like them apples? You go around yelling that people are abusing their friends to get an advantage in the last day and you play TWELVE games vs Oystein? 9-3 at B+ level is pretty much the same amount of points gained as Ultraling's 7-1 games. And since all of the games were probably legit (yours and his) then you should both be reduced to 9 games per day. Correct? Also, White-Ra, Mondragon, Boxerz, Hannigan, Xiaozi, Strelok, all have over 10 games a day at one point or another, and some (like White-Ra) would fall out of top16 if you remove all games over 10. Now these games were not played in the last day, but if the rule sticks then it should apply to everyone. Right? Either way, while others might get away, you should definitely check out Redeemer's games. I guess he thought that the "blame everyone else and hope nobody will notice you" tactic will work.
theres a huge difference between the two and that is that UltraLing played his friend, and incontrol played a guy he doesnt really know.
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On April 23 2008 05:57 RaGe wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2008 01:41 CubEdIn wrote:Hi, Ultraling asked me to put together this post for you guys. Oh and btw the rule with "no more than 9 games in same day vs same play" was written by LRM)Scythe on iccup.com like few hours ago. See this link, post #75. Scythe saying "Thanks for remind me, let me go update the rules"... Also many players played more than 9 games vs same person in same day and if you would delete all games of them too, this would happen: TSL-Redeemer out of top 48: Look how redeemer beat TSL-Oystein 9-3 in the last day of ICCup, so if last 3 games would be deleted redeemer would have 8708 (current) - 291 points, that would be 8417, out of top 48. So, iNc, how do you like them apples? You go around yelling that people are abusing their friends to get an advantage in the last day and you play TWELVE games vs Oystein? 9-3 at B+ level is pretty much the same amount of points gained as Ultraling's 7-1 games. And since all of the games were probably legit (yours and his) then you should both be reduced to 9 games per day. Correct? Also, White-Ra, Mondragon, Boxerz, Hannigan, Xiaozi, Strelok, all have over 10 games a day at one point or another, and some (like White-Ra) would fall out of top16 if you remove all games over 10. Now these games were not played in the last day, but if the rule sticks then it should apply to everyone. Right? Either way, while others might get away, you should definitely check out Redeemer's games. I guess he thought that the "blame everyone else and hope nobody will notice you" tactic will work. theres a huge difference between the two and that is that UltraLing played his friend, and incontrol played a guy he doesnt really know.
THIS DOES NOT MATTER.
Are you saying that Ultraling's friend threw the games? The replays state otherwise. Is the 9-games-a-day rule only viable for people who are friends?
And how the hell do you know Ultraling and Flaf are friends. They're in the same clan, yes, but that's about it. Way to speculate your ass off.
But that's ok I get it. The rule only applies in certain cases. That's fine.
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Austin10833 Posts
Do you have the replays cube?
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Awwww, aint this cute.
Friends till the end.
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Another problem is that people were complainign about the lack of opponents so they would just keep on rematching so that they didn't have to sit in the channel for 20-30 mins for the next game... and really, if the other guy is playing his best, getting creamed but still offering a rematch, why not give it to him?
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On April 23 2008 06:35 BroOd wrote:
Do you have the replays cube?
No, but I could get them. Why would it matter though. It's the admin's decision even if you agree with me or not.
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Austin10833 Posts
On April 23 2008 06:44 CubEdIn wrote:No, but I could get them. Why would it matter though. It's the admin's decision even if you agree with me or not.
What I meant was, I was wondering who reviewed the replays, since I couldn't find anywhere that an admin says they viewed them, just that they deleted points for playing too many games.
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Guys, don't be thick! Even in a court, you know a guy can get nailed not for breaking a rule per se, but for breaking the spirit of that rule.
Of course, it would be better if a godly admin could create the ultimate set of rules that could not be abused and that would prevent anyone from cheating. But we all know that will never happen.
Yet I think we all know fishy behavior when we see it. Some guys just keep playing on the edge, and when they get caught, defend by saying they did nothing against the rules. What is fairer to those who play with sportsmanship? Letting a bunch of guys play with the rules? Or take action even if there is no strict offense?
I believe TSL admins haven't spent so much time on this ladder to see everything be jeopardized by a hasty decision. They have tons of data to analyze, a lot of experience, and real pro admins to help them in their task. So if they say X or Y abused, why doubt them?
Besides, they have been doing their "job" thoroughly so far, so I am convinced they will catch all the best ranked abusers. No need to shout or point your finger. Work is in progress.
PS : Congrats admins and all those who help. Your dedication is admirable.
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On April 23 2008 05:50 OnCoke wrote:Well, iCCup.Scythe was "rushing" to add it / update it some hours ago.... that's why i said it's new... Anyway, it doesn't really matters since it seems that quite a number of players didn't follow it and are about to lose points. Koreans never get this kind of drama ... they have no idea what they'r missing. ps: had no idea about testie .... wow ... 12 games lol. well, i guess it was an honour for TSL_Nosu to play that many games against the best foreign random player.
new? i saw that rule (i guess it wasnt very explicit) very soon after the ladder started.
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Why do reps matter? Incontrol played the same guy 12 times in one day, so the last 3 games should be removed. That being said, I don't think he will be because he just seems like the type of person to think that he deserves some special privileges. Anyway, nice job catching the hypocrisy CubEdIn. It seems more and more like they just wanted to get Testie in.
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Now we have a regular of TL.net, who contributes to the site (replay section) getting a pass when he is caught abusing the rules? Do the rules apply to everyone or not? You can't pick and choose so you can populate the tournament with people you like. Putting up 10k and running an event doesn't make it respectable or legit if you're blatantly unfair.
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It's not about getting testie in. I want testie in also. And even if iNc would lose the last 4 games he'd still probably make #48 if nothing else changes.
The problem is that he was pointing fingers all around while he broke the rule himself. I fully support the admin decision on Ultraling, I just hate it that when it comes to a more popular figure we're sweeping the whole thing under the rug. You only enforced this rule for one person, even though many others broke it, because there was much bitching about it on the forums/iccup/etc. Now that someone else has done the exact same thing, but there's only me posting around, it will go unnoticed.
That's not fair no matter how you look at it.
I'm done posting about this.
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Braavos36390 Posts
This is the last time I'll say this. The game limit per rank is not a hardline rule. It's a discretionary rule. The admins use their judgment and make a decision. After reviewing all the complaints, the current positions are now finalized.
Everyone stop talking about it, because nothing is changing.
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On April 23 2008 05:57 RaGe wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2008 01:41 CubEdIn wrote:Hi, Ultraling asked me to put together this post for you guys. Oh and btw the rule with "no more than 9 games in same day vs same play" was written by LRM)Scythe on iccup.com like few hours ago. See this link, post #75. Scythe saying "Thanks for remind me, let me go update the rules"... Also many players played more than 9 games vs same person in same day and if you would delete all games of them too, this would happen: TSL-Redeemer out of top 48: Look how redeemer beat TSL-Oystein 9-3 in the last day of ICCup, so if last 3 games would be deleted redeemer would have 8708 (current) - 291 points, that would be 8417, out of top 48. So, iNc, how do you like them apples? You go around yelling that people are abusing their friends to get an advantage in the last day and you play TWELVE games vs Oystein? 9-3 at B+ level is pretty much the same amount of points gained as Ultraling's 7-1 games. And since all of the games were probably legit (yours and his) then you should both be reduced to 9 games per day. Correct? Also, White-Ra, Mondragon, Boxerz, Hannigan, Xiaozi, Strelok, all have over 10 games a day at one point or another, and some (like White-Ra) would fall out of top16 if you remove all games over 10. Now these games were not played in the last day, but if the rule sticks then it should apply to everyone. Right? Either way, while others might get away, you should definitely check out Redeemer's games. I guess he thought that the "blame everyone else and hope nobody will notice you" tactic will work. theres a huge difference between the two and that is that UltraLing played his friend, and incontrol played a guy he doesnt really know.
dont really care for either player, but the rules are the rules isnt it? as long as someone checks the replays and sees that one side wasnt throwing games, both inc and ultraling should be penalized equally for breaking the 9 games a day vs same person rule. it just would be showing favoritism for one player and that isnt very professional.
i am just curious how TSL staff will respond to this because cubedin does bring up a good valid point when it comes to the rules applying to everyone in the B level range equally, and not just against one person and not the other...
intriguing...
*edit*
sorry, didnt read the post hotbid made before posting this, hotbid like posted while i was typing this up lol
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On April 23 2008 07:31 Hot_Bid wrote:
This is the last time I'll say this. The game limit per rank is not a hardline rule. It's a discretionary rule. The admins use their judgment and make a decision. After reviewing all the complaints, the current positions are now finalized.
Everyone stop talking about it, because nothing is changing.
Can you explain what went on in making the decision to allow Incontrol to keep his games? Both him and Ultra played them at B and above rankings, so there's really not much difference. It's not like Ultra did his at C- and Incontrol at B+, where the rule is more lax because it's much harder to find games.
It looks bad when a TL.net staff member (replay section) is allowed to break the rules, and then when called on it, the only explanation is it's a staff decision.
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On April 23 2008 07:54 FamousRobot wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2008 07:31 Hot_Bid wrote:
This is the last time I'll say this. The game limit per rank is not a hardline rule. It's a discretionary rule. The admins use their judgment and make a decision. After reviewing all the complaints, the current positions are now finalized.
Everyone stop talking about it, because nothing is changing. Can you explain what went on in making the decision to allow Incontrol to keep his games? Both him and Ultra played them at B and above rankings, so there's really not much difference. It's not like Ultra did his at C- and Incontrol at B+, where the rule is more lax because it's much harder to find games. It looks bad when a TL.net staff member (replay section) is allowed to break the rules, and then when called on it, the only explanation is it's a staff decision.
christ man,
THERE IS NO RULE. DO YOU NOT UNDERSTAND?
do you think they would keep incontrol in if they thought he was cheating in any way or form?
jesus motherfucking unholy shitting christ
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Inc isn't staff. No one here even likes him.
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
It wasn't breaking the rules like hot_bid said. That "rule" is just a discretionary guideline so that players know there in abouts how m any games they should play. Personally I didnt even know there was a limit and what that limit was. I gave re's everytime someone asked me and Oystein wanted to continue playing evidently.
Cubedin you didnt find anything revolutionary or anything sorry. If you look at any of my posts and actually read them this time never once did i complain about the # of games they played alone, but rather that two friends played games MINUTES before the deadline and low and behold, the player capable of qualifying won almost every single one of them wow! Just like with g5 and lzgamer, the player on the actual TSL account ended up winning, that looks really fucking bad and one of them got banned. Oystein won 3 games against me and he made every other game go 30 minutes or so on my best map. I had never even known he existed before htat series. My problems are hardly hypocritical. I did these games the day before hte deadline too so even on a timeline the issue is moot.
Also I am not staff so dont for a second hint towards some kind of bias that is laughable. I upload replays cause I been around forever and asked if I could do that. I dont view any secret mod forums and I dont have any decision making power. I am an asset to this community through my experiences and contributions through that, you should try and do the same. Not sit here and cry injustice because a fucking abuser like ultraling got held accountable. I am not an abuser no matter how you paint it.
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Travis, check the ICCup rule page lol...
It isn't about cheating, it clearly states you cannot play over a certain limit.
- Freewins are not allowed. Any wins/points received in this manner are deducted. If the abuse consists of over 5 games, it will result in the reset and lock of all accounts involved.
- Avoiding a loss is not allowed. Repeated drop hack, intentional disconnection and/or flying away with buildings will be punished with a reset and lock.
- You may play the same player only a limited number of times per day, regardless whether the games are legit or not. The system is as follows:
1) D and C level: 5 games per day
2) B level: 9 games per day
3) A level: 13 games per day.
This is because it's progressively harder to find a variety of opponents at higher ranks, because there are less high-ranked players overall, and because abuse is less likely in the higher ranks (risk, effort). However, in a suspicious case, replays will be demanded.
Although I'm not sure if TSL follows that rule, as it is not run by ICCup - the rules are made and revised by TSL administration. I'm assuming TSL is just using the rules on ICCup as a general guideline. The only problem I have is they should have publicized this rule, because no one really even knew about it, and if TSL wants to make this discretionary, they should have atleast included it initially so people would actually know why they are losing points.
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Just because Incontrol doesn't have a blue name doesn't mean he's not staff. He works for this site (he uploads replays). How can you argue that someone who is allowed to make direct contributions that normal users cannot and edit the site directly is not a staff member?
Second:
On April 23 2008 07:59 travis wrote:
christ man,
THERE IS NO RULE. DO YOU NOT UNDERSTAND?
do you think they would keep incontrol in if they thought he was cheating in any way or form?
jesus motherfucking unholy shitting christ
Here's the rule:
http://www.iccup.com/info/ladder_rules/
ABUSE
- Freewins are not allowed. Any wins/points received in this manner are deducted. If the abuse consists of over 5 games, it will result in the reset and lock of all accounts involved.
- Avoiding a loss is not allowed. Repeated drop hack, intentional disconnection and/or flying away with buildings will be punished with a reset and lock.
- You may play the same player only a limited number of times per day, regardless whether the games are legit or not. The system is as follows:
1) D and C level: 5 games per day
2) B level: 9 games per day
3) A level: 13 games per day.
This is because it's progressively harder to find a variety of opponents at higher ranks, because there are less high-ranked players overall, and because abuse is less likely in the higher ranks (risk, effort). However, in a suspicious case, replays will be demanded.
THIS is the reason why Ultraling was reduced to 9 games allowed per day as stated in the first post. It's in accordance with the rule I quoted above.
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On April 23 2008 08:02 SCC-Faust wrote:Travis, check the ICCup rule page lol... It isn't about cheating, it clearly states you cannot play over a certain limit. Show nested quote +- Freewins are not allowed. Any wins/points received in this manner are deducted. If the abuse consists of over 5 games, it will result in the reset and lock of all accounts involved.
- Avoiding a loss is not allowed. Repeated drop hack, intentional disconnection and/or flying away with buildings will be punished with a reset and lock.
- You may play the same player only a limited number of times per day, regardless whether the games are legit or not. The system is as follows:
1) D and C level: 5 games per day
2) B level: 9 games per day
3) A level: 13 games per day.
This is because it's progressively harder to find a variety of opponents at higher ranks, because there are less high-ranked players overall, and because abuse is less likely in the higher ranks (risk, effort). However, in a suspicious case, replays will be demanded. Although I'm not sure if TSL follows that rule, as it is not run by ICCup - the rules are made and revised by TSL administration. I'm assuming TSL is just using the rules on ICCup as a general guideline. The only problem I have is they should have publicized this rule, because no one really even knew about it, and if TSL wants to make this discretionary, they should have atleast included it initially so people would actually know why they are losing points.
there is a thread with the TSL rules and it says nothing about ICCup's rules
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uploading replays is not "working for the site"
does everyone who makes interesting threads "work for the site" ?
incontrol is not able to "directly edit the site". all he can do is upload replays and put in a description for them.
and iccup rules are iccup rules, why aren't you complaining on the iccup forums.
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On April 23 2008 08:08 travis wrote:
there is a thread with the TSL rules and it says nothing about ICCup's rules
Yeah, which is why I edited my post (sorry if you only read my original version) - that they may have used ICCup's rules as a possible guideline. The mentioning of over-the-play limit in the original post was:
"Unfortunately for him, with the very small point difference between the top 48 players, the removal of 4 of his games (to make it 18, 9 per day) removes him from the standings of the top 48."
So if they aren't using the iCCup rules, and they never mentioned this before, I think it is appropriate to not even allow this rule to be used. How is a player to assume they are going to make this rule up right when TSL ends? Otherwise, if they did use the iCCup rules, they should penalize everyone equally. If they view Ultralings games as abuse, then I assume they did the right action. But just for playing over the limit; that is not right. Unless I am missing something and this rule was stated in TSL beforehand?
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
ty travis
Pretty clear that the situation is discretionary. Had those 12 games been against a friend of mine the day of the deadline or had any other circumstance that was questionable I could see room for complain (as people did with G5/Ultraling/Ex/Fenix etc). I did not know oystein and I even said as much to him in one of our games. All my games are uploaded and near 30 minutes each (he's a nice player). I know you'd love to see me get removed or something cause I made a big deal of ultraling but the fact is I do not have the same factors as ultraling and you are trying to draw comparisons that do not exist.
And for the last damn time even if I worked for the site it wouldn't matter. The TSL rules specifically don't say "same as ICCUP rules" or w/e. The 9 games at B is a measure so as to look towards when someone grossly oversteps that. Playing 3 games more the day before when everyone is dodging against someone I have no relation to is NOT abuse stop trying to paint me an abuser.
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
On April 23 2008 08:12 SCC-Faust wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2008 08:08 travis wrote:
there is a thread with the TSL rules and it says nothing about ICCup's rules Yeah, which is why I edited my post (sorry if you only read my original version) - that they may have used ICCup's rules as a possible guideline. The mentioning of over-the-play limit in the original post was: Show nested quote +"Unfortunately for him, with the very small point difference between the top 48 players, the removal of 4 of his games (to make it 18, 9 per day) removes him from the standings of the top 48." So if they aren't using the iCCup rules, and they never mentioned this before, I think it is appropriate to not even allow this rule to be used. How is a player to assume they are going to make this rule up right when TSL ends? Otherwise, if they did use the iCCup rules, they should penalize everyone equally. If they view Ultralings games as abuse, then I assume they did the right action. But just for playing over the limit; that is not right. Unless I am missing something and this rule was stated in TSL beforehand?
LOOK AT THE BOLD
NO
I didnt game my teammate/countrymen/friend MINUTES before the deadline and magically win them all in under 10 minutes. THAT is the situation ultraling finds himself in NOT ME.
CAN YOU SEE THIS?
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On April 22 2008 11:16 Kennigit wrote:
<font size = "4">Top 48 Changes</font>
As part of an ongoing investigation to make sure the most worthy and legitimate players are part of the TSL top 48, we have run into a number issues surrounding players "abusing" or taking advantage of iCCup policy with regards to the number of games they can play against competitors. iCCup's current policy is 9 games per day per player maximum and unfortunately as we saw at the end of the ladder this resulted in some less than credible matches being played between friends. TSL admins have been forced to walk a fine line with what is fair and what is justifiable with regards to our rulings.
it's not about iccup's rule. it's about whether or not the staff think the players were abusing the system. and no, there is no better way to deal with it.
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the dramaaaa.
Faust, some games are under the category "abuse", just as ultralings games. You have to see it as it really is, not just look at the number of games, as it's only a small part of how the admins judgde each case...
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Even if the rule was applied to the TSL as stringently as it appears in the ICCup page at this moment:
I don't know if anyone actually looked at the numbers to back up the claim that Incontrol would be out, but its not the case.
He would lose 291 points, which would place him firmly between Testie and Machine (which, with G5 and UltraLinG's removal, is a spot in the top 48). Ultraling would have lost 263 points from his series on the second to last day (his last series was only 8 games), which would have dropped him to 8322 points, a position well out of the top 48 (which in turn causes the rankings to shift up, which is what keeps Testie, Inctronl, and Machine safe).
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It's pretty obvious TSL's rules are just an extension of Iccup's rules and where they slightly overlap, there are minor additions. Just because it's not explicit stated in TSL's rules doesn't mean it doesn't apply. If it didn't apply why did first post follow it to the letter (9 games per day at B ranking on Ultraling). You do realize TSL's rankings are just ICCUP points of TSL members in a sorted list? If an ICCUP admin found Incontrol's situation before the ladder was locked and removed 300 points (for example) from him, it would immediately be reflected in his TSL standings. TSL's rules are not above Iccup's rules, they're an extension.
Making a thread in the forums is not the same thing as Incontrol being allowed to upload a replay to the section. Can ANYONE upload a replay anytime they want to that section? Incontrol has special privileges that allow him to edit this site in ways normal users cannot. THEN he breaks the same rule as another TSL player and is not punished.
I don't care for either player, but the whole situation is shady. The goal of TSL was to emulate the professional Korean leagues. Keyword being professional. This is nowhere near professional.
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Calgary25993 Posts
How's it shady? So we bump inc down 300 points, he still qualifies. Hot_Bid has said we're not going to shuffle the draw around every time we find 30 points here or there.
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oh yes clearly you have a deeper understanding of TSL's rules than the TSL staff
and you also clearly have a deeper understanding of how the korean leagues are ran, than the TL staff (which includes people who have been involved with the korean leagues, including a couple people who actually played in them)
someone just ban this troll plz
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Calgary25993 Posts
You should see his post history hahha
Let's just say it's no accident that he only started posting once Inc got mentioned in this thread
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On April 23 2008 08:31 Chill wrote:
How's it shady? So we bump inc down 300 points, he still qualifies. Hot_Bid has said we're not going to shuffle the draw around every time we find 30 points here or there.
Good point lol.
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South Africa4316 Posts
FamousRobot, unfortunately the only good explanation here is a staff decision, as the rule is a judgement rule and not a hard rule. Remember that it is not iNcontroL that is being advantaged by this decision, but rather Machine.that is being given a chance to play in the tournament.
The decision was made after considering many influencing factors, of which some of the most important ones were the connection between the two players, the position of the players, and the gains by each player.
Looking at all these factors we made a decision that Ultraling played against his clanmate specifically with the intention of gaining a position in the top 48 through unfair methods. This cost his clanmate no position in the tournmanet, while there is no way Ultraling would have qualified without the games against FlaF, as he gained an astonishing 863 points against FlaF over the course of two days.
iNcontroL on the other hand has no personal connection with Oystein, and probably cost Oystein a shot at qualifying by beating him. Furthermore, iNcontroL and Oystein were breaking fairly even until the end of their match, with iNcontroL only gaining 88 points. It is only in the last four games (which average 22 minutes in length) that iNcontroL managed to extend his lead to 475 points. In the match, after which Oystein gave in. As mentioned earlier, these matches probably cost Oystein his position in the TSL.
Looking at these two examples it cannot be said that they were in similar situations concerning the rule. The admins decided that Ultraling's case constituted abuse of the system, while iNcontroL's simply constitute a case of having played too many games. Furthermore, even if iNcontrol's games were subtracted from his total score, he would only lose 291 points and still remain in the top 48 players, while Ultraling's 388 points would cause him to drop from the top 48.
For these reasons, and other smaller ones, we have removed the games from Ultraling's score but not from iNcontroL's. Remember, this rule has always been enforced only in cases deemed abuse by the admins.
We apologize if this caused any inconvenience for those following the league and for the players, and we will make sure the rules are more clear on this next season. We hope you understand our decision on this matter though, and that you appreciate the difficult choices we have been forced to make. We will not revert this decision.
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i dont understand how u can qualify ultralings games as being an abuse since u didnt even ask for replays.
"I didnt game my teammate/countrymen/friend MINUTES before the deadline and magically win them all in under 10 minutes. THAT is the situation ultraling finds himself in NOT ME. " puhlease...
its zvz and ... maybe ultraling is simply better then flaf ?
how about u guys simply ask for the replays? u made saving reps mandatory... make some use of that.
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Osaka27166 Posts
You dont understand a lot of stuff.
The issue has been settled. We have 100 other things that demand our attention and are more important than this. We will now focus our energies on preparing for a tournament rather than explaining our decisions.
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the guy played 271 games in TSL to qualify
its just u take this decision too easy imho
anyway... whatever
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how would you possibly have any clue how much thought they have given to this decision?
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Artosis
United States2140 Posts
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Look, Shiv, I don't know if you know this but - This is not a public website, this is a ladder being hosted by teamliquid and what they say GOES. No exceptions. If the stuff they say isn't fair, deal with it. Life isn't fair, you have to get what you have and do what you can with it. And just to clarify, the stuff they say is 99% of the time fair anyways. Research some of G5's history and you'll probably understand better why the admins are making this decision.
By far, the recent TSL drama has been quite surprising. Especially with famous players caught hacking and two new people kicked out of top 48, G5 and Ultraling. Sure, if I had been kicked out I would have been pissed, but G5 took it to a whole new level. The best course of action would be to apologize for the mistakes he did... or even the mistakes he didn't do. I have found that saying sorry is always the best way to regain some lost composure. People look at you better than when you, in a spontaneous rage, flame everything and everybody.
People have their own problems in life. So really, do you believe that they wish to add your complaining to their list? As Manifesto said, no one wants to babysit you. Had you, G5, apologized, you may have been given a second chance. Had you apologized, you would AT LEAST be able to participate in the next TSL (if there is one) with some dignity, and wouldn't be so looked down upon as you are now. Had you just apologized, you wouldn't look like the complete retard you do now.
I find it funny. You're so immature, and though I am still immature I still know when it's the right time to take responsibility and own up to what you've done. You don't even care to realize the work put into this by the TSL admins. You added on work to their shoulders because you couldn't play honestly, such as foul play. I think you'll regret the words you said in the future. By insulting everyone, you have shown your true face of a lying, bad mannered idiot. Though you had already shown signs of it before, it's finally been confirmed. Your inability to take responsibility for your own trouble-causing is the cause of your punishment, and yet you still cannot grasp that concept. So be happy, knowing the fact that whenever you participate in any event, that I, and several others, now fully understanding the mask of lies you hid beneath, having shown your true colors, will be the first to root against you. I'm not speaking for EVERYONE... *ahem*Shiv*cough*cough*... but I don't believe anyone would even care now had you disappeared off the face of the Earth and never came back. So quit Starcraft for all I care. In my books, you're not welcome here.
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lol
as for korean professionality.. try playing in some of their online qualifiers, when you start it's all map hackers when you end it's all abusers
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Everyones forgetting the main conspiracy here.. Testie wanted to fool everyone into thinking he's not playing then attained super saiyan and is now going to win this freaking ladder.Forget everyone, only Mondragon awaits the throne for the random pro.
+ Show Spoiler +That was a joke ffs, don't get gung-ho on me.
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hackers should be put in jail for the sake of the community and we'll see if there's anyone else who dares to hack
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On April 23 2008 15:09 Ash wrote: hackers should be put in jail for the sake of the community and we'll see if there's anyone else who dares to hack
It´s a game, remember?
And if your rule would work the jails would be empty, but ppl still steal, kill and abuse
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good job TSL admins you are doing a great fucking job. G5 was just a drama bomb and no matter what, every cheater has excuses. and this combined with the mistrzzz unbanning thing, even though i think mistrzzz is a piece of shit, has shown that they do exhaustive research, weigh all options, and decide what is truly best for the ladder.
unfortunately, it's a real shame that they hate doing their job so much that they can't spend 15 minutes dealing with a crybaby cheater ERRR fair player
keep up the good work
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I didn't participate in the ladder, but I have an inkling of the time and effort needed to pull it off. All I can do is take off my hat 1.3 million times to approximate the level of respect the staff deserves. Great, great job, guys, keep it up! I'm looking forward to the final tournament, it'll be a blast.
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I dont understand how all these faggots are bitching about the admins decisions.
Team Liquid has been generous enough to let anyone try to qualify for their tourny.
If you don't like there rules then get out.
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On April 24 2008 06:11 Kingsp4de20 wrote:
I dont understand how all these faggots are bitching about the admins decisions.
Team Liquid has been generous enough to let anyone try to qualify for their tourny.
If you don't like there rules then get out.
Shut the hell up.
I'm sick of all you guys saying it's free so take it or leave it.
First of all, the guys who are mad, are probably mad because they dedicated a lot of their time to this. I haven't, and don't get me wrong, I do admire the admins for the time they put into this and how smooth everything went so far. But that's because they truly dedicated themselves to this. If it were people like YOU doing this it would all be crappy, because you go by the rule "it's free so it doesn't have to be good". No. Everything worth doing is worth doing well.
It's not THEIR tourney. It's a tourney for everyone who's playing and/or watching and loving it. However, the admins are doing the hard labor, and that's something to admire and be grateful for, I don't think otherwise, but please get the hell out of here with name calling. The only faggot here is you, calling people names without even being involved in this. This is good BECAUSE the players are allowed to speak and be heard. This is good BECAUSE everyone is allowed to qualify. This is good BECAUSE it's more like a Democracy than a Dictatorship.
So yeah, thank you TeamLiquid.
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Kennigit
Canada19447 Posts
Next flame is ban. You've been warned (all of you).
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United States37500 Posts
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
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On April 24 2008 09:05 NeoIllusions wrote:
For some reason I was reminded of Hot_Bid.
OH damn I'm such a romanian, it's his icon....ANyways gogoGOGOG R1!
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and Daigomi swoops in with the level headed response to save the day!
TL does what TL has to do! Thanks guys for all the hard work ^^
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lol , maybe lots of TL people aren't used to the foreign scene.... but, the rule is, no matter what you do (as an administrator), no matter how much of your time you slave away to do things for the benefit of random people you will never see, without getting any compensation... people are going to bitch and complain about everything you do. It's the life of an admin. People will love you, and people will hate you.. you can never make everyone happy.
<3 tl staff for TSL.
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honestly guys its obvious nothing is going to change and when you think about how the admins took hours on end to look over a decision, well even if you think its bad or not they took a hella long time to look over one decision. obviously they just didnt go oh its g5 wtf he did that? and decided but took initiative to look into it, well far as i know and have read so give them a break
and yeah machines lucky =D goodluck
btw
i would have qualified if i didnt have school HMPH!
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Testie Fighting
That's all that need be said.
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imo, Daigomi > all, great answer
that is the way to answer all these (imo mostly legit) complains, much love @ tl :>
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![[image loading]](http://staff.science.uva.nl/~bobd/tvbs/payments/thanks_1.gif)
![[image loading]](http://img408.imageshack.us/img408/2964/motivator2879088wr3.jpg)
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