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On June 12 2009 02:59 tree.hugger wrote:Yeah, after JWD's comments I'm anticipating the following: 1.  EffOrt2. Jaedong3.  BisuTo be honest, it's getting harder and harder to justify EffOrt not being #1. Beginning on April 19th, this guy has won 25/28 games. That's an 89% winning percentage. That's insane. In that streak, he has now beaten Jaedong, Stork, and Flash, as well as Luxury, Mind, July, and UpMaGiC. His wins against lesser players have been utterly dominant (see: SangHo) and his wins against stronger players have been gutty (see: Jaedong and Mind). The PR are an expression of who is playing the best SC right now, and I've always given a personal edge to established players like Bisu and Jaedong, because I know that they'll come back, and step it up when they need to. But at this point, even I'm not sure I'd take another player over EffOrt. I said a page ago that I think EffOrt will win a starleague soon. At this point, I think EffOrt might be the favorite to win OSL or MSL this season. Hell, I'd give him a fair chance of beating Jaedong in GOM. So honestly, why not #1?
I expect JWD will put him above Bisu/Jaedong, but I believe this to be a mistake.
I can't help but notice it's two CJ fans who roll in here and insist Effort #1.
At Effort's age Bisu was a double MSL winning, match-up defining genius.
And Jaedong was an OSL and an MSL winner being described as the best BW player ever.
What has Effort been doing all this time?
There is no way Effort is the favourite in a Bo5 against Bisu or Jaedong, don't make me laugh. So at the moment he's on a really nice streak but he hasn't had to play any high pressure games. He's also being protected by a very strong CJ team.
Effort might turn out to be an amazing player, but at the moment he isn't better than the two modern day Bonjwas.
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Effort's macro was utterly insane in that game versus Hiya. His game sense with the + Show Spoiler +patience with stop lurker
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Yeah, the Effort who lost against Bisu isn't the same Effort who is playing now, even though that was like only three weeks ago?
He is a beast in EVERY matchup
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On June 12 2009 02:59 tree.hugger wrote:You know, after JWD's comments I'm anticipating the following: 1. EffOrt2. Jaedong3. BisuTo be honest, it's getting harder and harder to justify EffOrt not being #1. Beginning on April 19th, this guy has won 25/28 games. That's an 89% winning percentage. That's insane. In that streak, he has now beaten Jaedong, Stork, and Flash, as well as Luxury, Mind, July, and UpMaGiC. His wins against lesser players have been utterly dominant (see: SangHo) and his wins against stronger players have been gutty (see: Jaedong and Mind). The PR are an expression of who is playing the best SC right now, and I've always given a personal edge to established players like Bisu and Jaedong, because I know that they'll come back, and step it up when they need to. But at this point, even I'm not sure I'd take another player over EffOrt. I said a page ago that I think EffOrt will win a starleague soon. At this point, I think EffOrt might be the favorite to win OSL or MSL this season. Hell, I'd give him a fair chance of beating Jaedong in GOM. So honestly, why not #1?
it's simple, without a title you cannot be nr 1, really. Only exception were, Jangbi, because everyone sucked big time at that point, and the PR still recieved shitstorm and lasted for 14 days or so (and Jangbi at least had some silvers). And Mainfesto's Leta, but he explained what was his criteria, which is somewhat different from what we used to (and hell, it's still Manifesto, and produced some of the most awesome reasoning of the PR overall in the history, and still recieved a lot of critisism)
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On June 12 2009 03:09 Klive5ive wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2009 02:59 tree.hugger wrote:Yeah, after JWD's comments I'm anticipating the following: 1. EffOrt2. Jaedong3. BisuTo be honest, it's getting harder and harder to justify EffOrt not being #1. Beginning on April 19th, this guy has won 25/28 games. That's an 89% winning percentage. That's insane. In that streak, he has now beaten Jaedong, Stork, and Flash, as well as Luxury, Mind, July, and UpMaGiC. His wins against lesser players have been utterly dominant (see: SangHo) and his wins against stronger players have been gutty (see: Jaedong and Mind). The PR are an expression of who is playing the best SC right now, and I've always given a personal edge to established players like Bisu and Jaedong, because I know that they'll come back, and step it up when they need to. But at this point, even I'm not sure I'd take another player over EffOrt. I said a page ago that I think EffOrt will win a starleague soon. At this point, I think EffOrt might be the favorite to win OSL or MSL this season. Hell, I'd give him a fair chance of beating Jaedong in GOM. So honestly, why not #1? I expect JWD will put him above Bisu/Jaedong, but I believe this to be a mistake. I can't help but notice it's two CJ fans who roll in here and insist Effort #1. At Effort's age Bisu was a double MSL winning, match-up defining genius. And Jaedong was an OSL and an MSL winner being described as the best BW player ever. What has Effort been doing all this time? There is no way Effort is the favourite in a Bo5 against Bisu or Jaedong, don't make me laugh. So at the moment he's on a really nice streak but he hasn't had to play any high pressure games. He's also being protected by a very strong CJ team. Effort might turn out to be an amazing player, but at the moment he isn't better than the two modern day Bonjwas.
I am not a CJ fan and a die hard Bisu fan and I think Effort should take the #1 spot. You really can`t argue against his results vs a wide range of opponents including lots of very good ones, while the 2 other contenders for the #1 spot are losing games at a much higher rate. Also he have cruised into the RO16 of both leagues. The only thing we can hold against him is the fact that he is rather unproven in BOx series.
Who knows how he will do in a BOx vs Bisu or Jaedong however we do know that he has what it takes to take games from both (yeah hes never beaten Bisu but he made a very close game).
Also why does the age matter? Some people are late bloomers.
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Philadelphia, PA10406 Posts
On June 12 2009 03:09 Klive5ive wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2009 02:59 tree.hugger wrote:Yeah, after JWD's comments I'm anticipating the following: 1. EffOrt2. Jaedong3. BisuTo be honest, it's getting harder and harder to justify EffOrt not being #1. Beginning on April 19th, this guy has won 25/28 games. That's an 89% winning percentage. That's insane. In that streak, he has now beaten Jaedong, Stork, and Flash, as well as Luxury, Mind, July, and UpMaGiC. His wins against lesser players have been utterly dominant (see: SangHo) and his wins against stronger players have been gutty (see: Jaedong and Mind). The PR are an expression of who is playing the best SC right now, and I've always given a personal edge to established players like Bisu and Jaedong, because I know that they'll come back, and step it up when they need to. But at this point, even I'm not sure I'd take another player over EffOrt. I said a page ago that I think EffOrt will win a starleague soon. At this point, I think EffOrt might be the favorite to win OSL or MSL this season. Hell, I'd give him a fair chance of beating Jaedong in GOM. So honestly, why not #1? I expect JWD will put him above Bisu/Jaedong, but I believe this to be a mistake. I can't help but notice it's two CJ fans who roll in here and insist Effort #1. At Effort's age Bisu was a double MSL winning, match-up defining genius. And Jaedong was an OSL and an MSL winner being described as the best BW player ever. What has Effort been doing all this time? There is no way Effort is the favourite in a Bo5 against Bisu or Jaedong, don't make me laugh. So at the moment he's on a really nice streak but he hasn't had to play any high pressure games. He's also being protected by a very strong CJ team. Effort might turn out to be an amazing player, but at the moment he isn't better than the two modern day Bonjwas.
Easy there, I think I'm being pretty fair. Yesterday I argued that EffOrt's win over JD did not justify him going over him in the rankings. But in the interest of full disclosure:
EffOrt is my favorite player.
That said, I think this has become incredibly close. I'm looking forward to EffOrt's series against JD in GOM, because I think both players have a sense of what's at stake. They both know that they're the top two zergs at this point, and I doubt either player will take it lightly. That will be something to watch. The way they've played lately, I actually don't think anyone could say with 100% certainty who would win.
EffOrt has also certainly played high-pressure games. His PL game against Jaedong for example. While I acknowledge that JD played (and lost) the most pressure filled match of the month, (v. Bisu in ACE) I submit that EffOrt has played plenty of elimination games and ACE matches, and crucial sets in the last month. And he's pretty much won them all. CJ has won plenty of 3-2 games recently, it's silly to assert that EffOrt's games are irrelevant.
On June 12 2009 03:14 Geo.Rion wrote:
it's simple, without a title you cannot be nr 1, really. Only exception were, Jangbi, because everyone sucked big time at that point, and the PR still recieved shitstorm and lasted for 14 days or so (and Jangbi at least had some silvers). And Mainfesto's Leta, but he explained what was his criteria, which is somewhat different from what we used to (and hell, it's still Manifesto, and produced some of the most awesome reasoning of the PR overall in the history, and still recieved a lot of critisism)
Is it so simple? It's not unheard of...
And since there was no title this month, I think that's an unfair argument, while I like pedigree as much as the next guy, I'm always skeptical of the relevence of the past in sports. I think their pedigree is what keeps a player like fantasy on the PR- we know he's better than how he's played most recently.
EDIT: I'm not saying that EffOrt should be #1, I'm pointing out that it's not so absurd now. If JWD, puts EffOrt at #1, I'm suggesting a rational.
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On June 12 2009 03:21 Oystein wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2009 03:09 Klive5ive wrote:On June 12 2009 02:59 tree.hugger wrote:Yeah, after JWD's comments I'm anticipating the following: 1. EffOrt2. Jaedong3. BisuTo be honest, it's getting harder and harder to justify EffOrt not being #1. Beginning on April 19th, this guy has won 25/28 games. That's an 89% winning percentage. That's insane. In that streak, he has now beaten Jaedong, Stork, and Flash, as well as Luxury, Mind, July, and UpMaGiC. His wins against lesser players have been utterly dominant (see: SangHo) and his wins against stronger players have been gutty (see: Jaedong and Mind). The PR are an expression of who is playing the best SC right now, and I've always given a personal edge to established players like Bisu and Jaedong, because I know that they'll come back, and step it up when they need to. But at this point, even I'm not sure I'd take another player over EffOrt. I said a page ago that I think EffOrt will win a starleague soon. At this point, I think EffOrt might be the favorite to win OSL or MSL this season. Hell, I'd give him a fair chance of beating Jaedong in GOM. So honestly, why not #1? I expect JWD will put him above Bisu/Jaedong, but I believe this to be a mistake. I can't help but notice it's two CJ fans who roll in here and insist Effort #1. At Effort's age Bisu was a double MSL winning, match-up defining genius. And Jaedong was an OSL and an MSL winner being described as the best BW player ever. What has Effort been doing all this time? There is no way Effort is the favourite in a Bo5 against Bisu or Jaedong, don't make me laugh. So at the moment he's on a really nice streak but he hasn't had to play any high pressure games. He's also being protected by a very strong CJ team. Effort might turn out to be an amazing player, but at the moment he isn't better than the two modern day Bonjwas. I am not a CJ fan and a die hard Bisu fan and I think Effort should take the #1 spot. You really can`t argue against his results vs a wide range of opponents including lots of very good ones, while the 2 other contenders for the #1 spot are losing games at a much higher rate. Also he have cruised into the RO16 of both leagues. The only thing we can hold against him is the fact that he is rather unproven in BOx series. Who knows how he will do in a BOx vs Bisu or Jaedong however we do know that he has what it takes to take games from both (yeah hes never beaten Bisu but he made a very close game). Also why does the age matter? Some people are late bloomers.
Oystein while i recpect you a lot as a player, i could not disagree more. As an established player you should know how different a bo5 is from a bo1 or (bo3 agaisnt lesser opponents). A player who did not even reach the point to have a bo5 series, and is not the constant ace of his team, isnot qualified for the nr 1 rank. He might show the strongest performance right now, but it could be misleading. I'm fine with Effort on 1st next month if he keeps up like this, but a hot streak + strong performance is not enough in my opinion.
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On June 12 2009 03:27 Geo.Rion wrote:
I'm fine with Effort on 1st next month if he keeps up like this, but a hot streak + strong performance is not enough in my opinion.
This.
Jaedong is 14-3, with clutch wins over Leta and Skyhigh.
Bisu is 11-3 with a clutch win over Jaedong.
Both of them are playing quality Starcraft and look very strong doing so.
Effort was not expected to win this much so we haven't seen him under real pressure.
We saw the same thing with Leta until suddenly he was recognised as a great player and people took him more seriously. Then he struggled to maintain his form.
You've also got to take into account that random variance occurs too and for some reason it appears to affect Zerg players a lot. What if Hiya puts his proxy rax on the low ground? etc...
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Effort is unbelievable good right now. But by putting him #1 JWD would fall to the same trap as when Leta became #1 (I somehwat agreed on that back then but in retrospect I feel it was not justified).
The guy has never played in a Ro8 of a Starleague or something similar. He beat great competition but so did Leta back then. Top-Players will start to analyze Efforts style more closely and prepare for it. And then he will start dropping games. Again, the same with Leta.
If Effort is going to win a Starleague (or makes it really far) this season I will happily eat my words. But I do not see that happening right now. Bisu and JD are at the top of the foodchain although everyone is analyzing them all the time. The same cannot be said for Effort until now.
He should remain #3 and if he continues winning like this, there is always a new PR. Just do not put him between Bisu and JD, that would make no sense at all.
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On June 12 2009 03:27 Geo.Rion wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2009 03:21 Oystein wrote:On June 12 2009 03:09 Klive5ive wrote:On June 12 2009 02:59 tree.hugger wrote:Yeah, after JWD's comments I'm anticipating the following: 1. EffOrt2. Jaedong3. BisuTo be honest, it's getting harder and harder to justify EffOrt not being #1. Beginning on April 19th, this guy has won 25/28 games. That's an 89% winning percentage. That's insane. In that streak, he has now beaten Jaedong, Stork, and Flash, as well as Luxury, Mind, July, and UpMaGiC. His wins against lesser players have been utterly dominant (see: SangHo) and his wins against stronger players have been gutty (see: Jaedong and Mind). The PR are an expression of who is playing the best SC right now, and I've always given a personal edge to established players like Bisu and Jaedong, because I know that they'll come back, and step it up when they need to. But at this point, even I'm not sure I'd take another player over EffOrt. I said a page ago that I think EffOrt will win a starleague soon. At this point, I think EffOrt might be the favorite to win OSL or MSL this season. Hell, I'd give him a fair chance of beating Jaedong in GOM. So honestly, why not #1? I expect JWD will put him above Bisu/Jaedong, but I believe this to be a mistake. I can't help but notice it's two CJ fans who roll in here and insist Effort #1. At Effort's age Bisu was a double MSL winning, match-up defining genius. And Jaedong was an OSL and an MSL winner being described as the best BW player ever. What has Effort been doing all this time? There is no way Effort is the favourite in a Bo5 against Bisu or Jaedong, don't make me laugh. So at the moment he's on a really nice streak but he hasn't had to play any high pressure games. He's also being protected by a very strong CJ team. Effort might turn out to be an amazing player, but at the moment he isn't better than the two modern day Bonjwas. I am not a CJ fan and a die hard Bisu fan and I think Effort should take the #1 spot. You really can`t argue against his results vs a wide range of opponents including lots of very good ones, while the 2 other contenders for the #1 spot are losing games at a much higher rate. Also he have cruised into the RO16 of both leagues. The only thing we can hold against him is the fact that he is rather unproven in BOx series. Who knows how he will do in a BOx vs Bisu or Jaedong however we do know that he has what it takes to take games from both (yeah hes never beaten Bisu but he made a very close game). Also why does the age matter? Some people are late bloomers. Oystein while i recpect you a lot as a player, i could not disagree more. As an established player you should know how different a bo5 is from a bo1 or (bo3 agaisnt lesser opponents). A player who did not even reach the point to have a bo5 series, and is not the constant ace of his team, isnot qualified for the nr 1 rank. He might show the strongest performance right now, but it could be misleading. I'm fine with Effort on 1st next month if he keeps up like this, but a hot streak + strong performance is not enough in my opinion.
I see the point all you guys who don`t think he should be #1 are making, and I sort of agree and as you saw I wrote that the fact that hes unproven in BOx series is really the only thing we can hold against him because he is bringing in wins everywhere and beating the big names on his way. I guess you can also say that he don`t look as dominant in most of his wins as Bisu\JD looks when they are playing their best, but while it might not look as pretty it is at the moment more effective. Both JD and Bisu are at 14-3 for their last 3 losses while Effort is at 25-3, that is like Flash at his best win rate.
The thing is we are in the off season right now so there are not any BO5s as of now, but hes stomped on everyone hes faced in BO3s and are in RO16 of both the big leagues and GOM. Also the fact that hes not the sole ace of the team should not be held against him, not every team gives their players an inhumane workload, because there is no doubt that he is CJs best player atm.
I guess in the end its all about what kind of PR you like, the safe one where the great players are given a bit leniency and in general the benefit of the doubt or one that gives a good indication of who is playing the best starcraft these days regardless of who you are. I know I like my PR with a bit of spice and controversy 
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Maybe JWD wants 1000 posts before he updates. There has certainly been some talking points this month... especially with the last ranking.
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On June 12 2009 04:01 Malinor wrote:
The guy has never played in a Ro8 of a Starleague or something similar. He beat great competition but so did Leta back then. Top-Players will start to analyze Efforts style more closely and prepare for it. And then he will start dropping games. Again, the same with Leta. Arguably (and put simplistically), the #1 player is the one whom all others need to study. So this argument can be taken to justify Leta's position back then, and possibly Effort becoming #1 now.
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If you really put Effort at #1, you are making a PR absolutely based on monthly performance. One of the staff here said that the #1 player on the PR is the person who will become a favorite against anyone else right now, although it does include monthly performance. Effort is NOT a favorite against Bisu or Jaedong.
Sure Effort has been getting great results but Bisu and Jaedong receive the benefit of the doubt since their past dominance has been proven, shown, and people recognize them for it.
If you put Effort at #1, a crappy player like Rock can be #1 the next month if he gets the same results that Effort has gotten this month?
Therefore, PR should not be strictly about monthly performance although it should include it partially.
Effort should be #3 until he wins an OSL / MSL or beat Bisu / Jaedong in a BO5. Otherwise, just no.
Zero was placed above Jaedong last PR strictly based on positive results and look how temporary and ill-ranked that was.
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On June 12 2009 04:38 AzureEye wrote:If you put Effort at #1, a crappy player like Rock can be #1 the next month if he gets the same results that Effort has gotten this month?
If Rock actually manages to produce the same kind of result over an extended time then yeah they should be given a good power rank, you make it seem like its something everyone can do. 25-3 is pretty much unheard of beside for people like Flash\JD etc (at their PEAK I might add) make no doubt holding an almost 90% winrate over almost 30 games is CRAZY.
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On June 12 2009 04:38 AzureEye wrote:
Zero was placed above Jaedong last PR strictly based on positive results and look how temporary and ill-ranked that was.
Zero wasn't anywhere Effort's insane streak though (and his placement was indeed way off). It'd be more accurate to compare Zero with, say, Violet.
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Philadelphia, PA10406 Posts
On June 12 2009 04:38 AzureEye wrote:
If you really put Effort at #1, you are making a PR absolutely based on monthly performance. One of the staff here said that the #1 player on the PR is the person who will become a favorite against anyone else right now, although it does include monthly performance. Effort is NOT a favorite against Bisu or Jaedong.
Eh, I reluctantly agree with you there. But it's a helluva lot closer than it was a week ago no? At most it's 55-45%. I think it's even closer. We'll see in GOM- I can't wait for that.
Basically, I completely understand why most people say that JD and Bisu should be ahead of EffOrt. But I've been watching the games too, and I see the PR a little differently; a judgement call about who the best players are in the game right now, based on results, past results, and... (the greatest variable, and the one we're all really arguing about) opinions on the strength of their play. And I've seen EffOrt wreck opponents, and I've seen him grit out wins. In my mind, there isn't anybody he couldn't beat right now. Watch his game against JD, watch his games against Much. EffOrt does what he needs to do to win, and has in the past brought his level up to the best. He doesn't need to do that anymore, he is among the best.
(I hope he gets even better, he's the most exciting player in the game right now.*)
*There's my alloted bit/passionate defense as a EffOrt fan.
* And my contribution to 1000 posts...
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On June 12 2009 05:04 Oystein wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2009 04:38 AzureEye wrote:If you put Effort at #1, a crappy player like Rock can be #1 the next month if he gets the same results that Effort has gotten this month? If Rock actually manages to produce the same kind of result over an extended time then yeah they should be given a good power rank, you make it seem like its something everyone can do. 25-3 is pretty much unheard of beside for people like Flash\JD etc (at their PEAK I might add) make no doubt holding an almost 90% winrate over almost 30 games is CRAZY.
I think you'll find it's the best 28 game record EVER.
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oh how I wished he just published the old PR...
and thanks to Avidkeystamper for explaining, you have a point there
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On June 12 2009 04:01 Malinor wrote:
Effort is unbelievable good right now. But by putting him #1 JWD would fall to the same trap as when Leta became #1 (I somehwat agreed on that back then but in retrospect I feel it was not justified).
The guy has never played in a Ro8 of a Starleague or something similar. He beat great competition but so did Leta back then. Top-Players will start to analyze Efforts style more closely and prepare for it. And then he will start dropping games. Again, the same with Leta.
If Effort is going to win a Starleague (or makes it really far) this season I will happily eat my words. But I do not see that happening right now. Bisu and JD are at the top of the foodchain although everyone is analyzing them all the time. The same cannot be said for Effort until now.
He should remain #3 and if he continues winning like this, there is always a new PR. Just do not put him between Bisu and JD, that would make no sense at all.
I think this is the most telling. Effort's playstyle hasn't been scrutinized as heavily as some of the other bigger names and he's never played a Bo5 in his entire career. While he may be #1 on the PR (as Leta was), it's very risky seeing how Leta was just as hot for waaaaay longer and he fell really hard once he actually got a taste of what the individual leagues were like.
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Russian Federation1381 Posts
As far as how they performed in a month period, there is no denying EffOrt should easily be #1.
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EPT
