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United States12607 Posts
On May 17 2009 00:45 TwoToneTerran wrote:
Yep. Bisu's only dropped one game and has the best record, #1. Zero and Fantasy have a better record this month than Jaedong, so he obviously drops below both, etc etc. Leta's record is very similar to Jaedong (someone posted a list earlier where they were on the same level), so he goes right beneath...Going by your version of the PR though. I'm not saying you're wrong, I just think that sounds simplistic.
I agree, it's over-the-top simplistic...writing the PR according to records in TLPD would make for a fucking awful PR that requires no explanation and is not interesting to read or nearly as useful for picking up on the last month's big names. That's why I didn't write this PR that way. Isn't this fact obvious from every post I've made here, from the OP right up to now??
And how can you possibly look at this list and go on to insinuate my rank is based exclusively on it?
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I didn't say exclusively (I was being overly simplistic of what you said, ironically, but that was just an example of how it's pretty easy to make your rank sync up with raw data), but if the PR is "only" about whatever happens in one month (instead of just having an obvious preference for the most recent month) and be even more based on records then it seems to undermine players who A)Have a smaller workload for any given month (see my hypothetical) B)Hit a weak series of games only to come back in top dominating form, obviously showing they're the best of the best even with a hiccup and C)Had just shown they're still on top of the game previously, even if one month's results aren't their absolute best.
It also lends to give too much credit to players who have one stellar month in light of a bad history. It lends no buffer for a good player to continue the prove themselves, and instead just up and take a top spot, regardless of what we know of the player.
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why are people so adamant about wanting a somewhat static power rank? if we just always saw Bisu, Jaedong @ 1/2, Fantasy, Flash, Leta, Jangbi, Stork @ 3-8 and then random others at 9-10, what purpose do the 1-8 slots hold? what use does it serve if the power rank just reinforces your views of who the best players are? A power rank that shows you, at a glance, recent trends in who's continually kicking ass, and who's starting waves in the progaming scene is much better than one that just tell us who the sc community thinks are the best 10 players in the world, because it tells you something you may not have known and creates discussion,
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On May 17 2009 01:33 Mogwai wrote:
why are people so adamant about wanting a somewhat static power rank? if we just always saw Bisu, Jaedong @ 1/2, Fantasy, Flash, Leta, Jangbi, Stork @ 3-8 and then random others at 9-10, what purpose do the 1-8 slots hold? what use does it serve if the power rank just reinforces your views of who the best players are? A power rank that shows you, at a glance, recent trends in who's continually kicking ass, and who's starting waves in the progaming scene is much better than one that just tell us who the sc community thinks are the best 10 players in the world, because it tells you something you may not have known and creates discussion,
I haven't read the last five pages but this response is for those saying that if "we don't judge by purely results, and instead by who is potentially better, then Bisu/Flash/JD will always be on top."
Isn't that a dune argument though, the kind banned from SC2 section because it's
1) a logical fallacy and
2) really stupid and narrow.
The power ranks in the past have been a mixture of both results and potential, so I don't see why people are dissing any power rank that considers the name value.
Things are never absolute, it doesn't have to be black and white.
Also, SKT T1 fans generally have a slight bias against Jaedong and vice versa for Oz fans since a large portion of their fanbase is because of that star player.
That was a repost. Spot using the Dune argument.
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On May 17 2009 02:05 Avidkeystamper wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2009 01:33 Mogwai wrote:
why are people so adamant about wanting a somewhat static power rank? if we just always saw Bisu, Jaedong @ 1/2, Fantasy, Flash, Leta, Jangbi, Stork @ 3-8 and then random others at 9-10, what purpose do the 1-8 slots hold? what use does it serve if the power rank just reinforces your views of who the best players are? A power rank that shows you, at a glance, recent trends in who's continually kicking ass, and who's starting waves in the progaming scene is much better than one that just tell us who the sc community thinks are the best 10 players in the world, because it tells you something you may not have known and creates discussion, I haven't read the last five pages but this response is for those saying that if "we don't judge by purely results, and instead by who is potentially better, then Bisu/Flash/JD will always be on top." Isn't that a dune argument though, the kind banned from SC2 section because it's 1) a logical fallacy and 2) really stupid and narrow. The power ranks in the past have been a mixture of both results and potential, so I don't see why people are dissing any power rank that considers the name value. Things are never absolute, it doesn't have to be black and white. Also, SKT T1 fans generally have a slight bias against Jaedong and vice versa for Oz fans since a large portion of their fanbase is because of that star player. That was a repost. Spot using the Dune argument.
Actually, Nada, Savior, and Anytime/Pusan/Nal_Ra would always be on top.
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On May 17 2009 01:33 Mogwai wrote:
why are people so adamant about wanting a somewhat static power rank? if we just always saw Bisu, Jaedong @ 1/2, Fantasy, Flash, Leta, Jangbi, Stork @ 3-8 and then random others at 9-10, what purpose do the 1-8 slots hold? what use does it serve if the power rank just reinforces your views of who the best players are? A power rank that shows you, at a glance, recent trends in who's continually kicking ass, and who's starting waves in the progaming scene is much better than one that just tell us who the sc community thinks are the best 10 players in the world, because it tells you something you may not have known and creates discussion,
I don't think most people here want a static power rank.
- When a dominant player is starting to play bad for more than just a small ammount of games its justified to punnish them for it. For example Stork and JangBi aren't even on the PR this time and I don't see anyone complain about this.
- When players have been dominant for a vast period of time it doesnt matter if he drops 3-4 games during a small period of time, specially if he gets his shit together right after and starts winning again. They deserve the benefit of a doubt more than newer players who still has alot to prove.
The way Bisu and Jaedong has been playing lately, for several months, has given them the right to be positioned on the very top of the PR unless they start playing worse consistantly or if some new player is showing brilliant play consistantly.
For ZerO, who wasn't even ranked in the last months PR, to climb over the arguably best player in the world, would need him to show extraordinay play in important games vs players of high calibre or that Jaedong starts playing worse consistantly.
This month haven't included such games and Jaedong hasn't shown considerably worse play than when he was dominant, and thats why people react.
All I'm trying to say is that you should be so hasty in lowering the very top players based on just a few games, or you wouldn't get an accurate list of who's actually the best players right now.
If you asked me the question, who is the best zerg right now I would answer Jaedong.
However JWD has stated how and why he ranked the players the way he did and his PR is based abit differenly from the past PRs as far as I can tell.
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JWD clarified that he felt that ZerO performed better last month but that Jaedong was still the better zerg player.
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I don't know if it was answered already, but why is fantasy ranked higher than Zero?
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On May 17 2009 03:02 Avidkeystamper wrote:
JWD clarified that he felt that ZerO performed better last month but that Jaedong was still the better zerg player.
I was pretty sure he wrote somewhere that ZerO is the best zerg atm...hmmm
anyway if that's the case it's fine...kinda
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Jaedong HIMSELF said he had a slump recently. Seems to be reason enough to drop a place just for this month i don't know why people are arguing about it.
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On May 17 2009 04:50 infinity2k9 wrote:
Jaedong HIMSELF said he had a slump recently. Seems to be reason enough to drop a place just for this month i don't know why people are arguing about it.
He lost like 3 games in proleague that mattered , thats like the shortest slump ever ... Imo if it was 1 spot it is ok he droped 3 spots . Maybe Jaedong losing 1 ZvZ is a definition of slump don't know . And i know others have been showing great results , but he is still the best zerg and seeing Zero above him because he is on a streak i don't like , because he is inconsistent as hell like Kal or someone else . Also i don't like seeing Fantasy above Jaedong . Fantasy is pretty good , but Jaedong showed that he is the better player after creaming him from being 0-2 behind . I know fantasy's builds are good but if it doesn't go his way his practically dead , thats what you can see just from game 5 of the OSL finals . Not to mention that if the map does not favour his builds he is forced to play standart and is a gonner like his last 2 games against zerg .
Also i can't help , but feel disgusted when i see TheZerg at # 10 spot , Calm or even great are more deserving , better then him skillwise have been carring their teams for a longer time, and TheZerg just now started to do something else then losing to help his team and hasn't impress me with nothing . Not to mention that you can find several better players that are showing as good results as him . I saw your reasonings , but i'm pretty sure that Calm could take a game from leta
or even a series he is ZvT is solid unlike DaZurg's . Also judging great doesn't deserve the 10 spot , because he lost a ZvZ even against ZergBong doesn't deny the fact that he beat strong players in proleague with solid performance and has been the ACE player in Samsung Khan for this round and a solid zerg back up for then all proleague . Stork's been seeded for both leagues and played a few games in PL where he didn't exactly crashed and burned like JangBi so even he can replace TheZerg .
I don't really care since more then half of the month is done and next month i hope it gets more clear of who are the best players right now .
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I'm surprised the PR doesn't mention Bisu's PvP. He's beastly in all three matchups, and certainly a long-time Zerg killer, but PvP has got to be his best one these days, better than even Best during his prime. 22-3 since December, losing only to Jangbi (twice), and that darn spinach dude.
Fantasy's TvP is awesome - how does anyone of ANY race beat Bisu three-zip?? I put Hiya up there too, and maybe Flash, but he struggles a fair bit against the Dragons. (How can Leta be in the top 5 TvP? He gets creamed there with alarming regularity.)
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9071 Posts
Bisu has been the best pvp-er for over a year now, I cant understand why ppl even mentioned this MU as BeSt or Storks playground. It takes a simple click on the TLPD to see that KTY is somewhere around 75% in PvP after his 0-3 loss vs stork in Ever OSL... which is a long period of time.
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United States12607 Posts
On May 17 2009 07:11 disciple wrote:
Bisu has been the best pvp-er for over a year now, I cant understand why ppl even mentioned this MU as BeSt or Storks playground. It takes a simple click on the TLPD to see that KTY is somewhere around 75% in PvP after his 0-3 loss vs stork in Ever OSL... which is a long period of time.
I don't think many people have been saying PvP is BeSt and Stork's domain for some time now...at least not since ClubDay MSL Finals.
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United States12607 Posts
On May 17 2009 02:05 Avidkeystamper wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2009 01:33 Mogwai wrote:
why are people so adamant about wanting a somewhat static power rank? if we just always saw Bisu, Jaedong @ 1/2, Fantasy, Flash, Leta, Jangbi, Stork @ 3-8 and then random others at 9-10, what purpose do the 1-8 slots hold? what use does it serve if the power rank just reinforces your views of who the best players are? A power rank that shows you, at a glance, recent trends in who's continually kicking ass, and who's starting waves in the progaming scene is much better than one that just tell us who the sc community thinks are the best 10 players in the world, because it tells you something you may not have known and creates discussion, I haven't read the last five pages but this response is for those saying that if "we don't judge by purely results, and instead by who is potentially better, then Bisu/Flash/JD will always be on top." Isn't that a dune argument though, the kind banned from SC2 section because it's 1) a logical fallacy and 2) really stupid and narrow. The power ranks in the past have been a mixture of both results and potential, so I don't see why people are dissing any power rank that considers the name value. Things are never absolute, it doesn't have to be black and white. Also, SKT T1 fans generally have a slight bias against Jaedong and vice versa for Oz fans since a large portion of their fanbase is because of that star player. That was a repost. Spot using the Dune argument.
I'm not sure what exactly in Mogwai's post you're referring to as a logical fallacy, Avidkeystamper (I guess this is a disadvantage of copy/pasting previous posts you've made in this thread). While it of course would be ridiculous to seriously claim that a ranking of the "best" gamers would always contain Bisu/JD/Flash/etc., Mogwai only used "always" in the figurative sense to illustrate his point.
His point is extremely valid, and as I've mentioned previously it's one of the main reasons I decided to write the PR this way. You have to concede that, if my PR was based more on a general sense of "the best players" than on recent performance, it would be a lot less useful as a refresher on recent comings and goings in the BW scene. Part of what I'm trying to get readers to do is understand recent trends in individual performance and debate them - unfortunately, the many posters in this thread seem to want to challenge the basis for my rank rather than start a serious, fact-based argument over who really has been the most powerful Zerg since mid-April (an argument which I think would be much more interesting than the one's we've been busy with instead).
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well JWD, the PR should be about who's the strongest player atm, it's the PR. So if u think that JD is stronger that zero, then u should've put him over zero, period.
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United States12607 Posts
On May 17 2009 06:02 raga4ka wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2009 04:50 infinity2k9 wrote:
Jaedong HIMSELF said he had a slump recently. Seems to be reason enough to drop a place just for this month i don't know why people are arguing about it. He lost like 3 games in proleague that mattered , thats like the shortest slump ever ... Imo if it was 1 spot it is ok he droped 3 spots .
raga4ka, the lines I'm quoting here are a perfect example of the type of totally untenable argument that many pro-JD posters have made thus far in this thread. You seem to be suggesting that Jaedong's rank should be based on some non-relative, entirely-JD-dependent measure of skill or "power": if JD plays poorly, he should drop 1 spot. If he plays really poorly, he should drop 3. And if he plays well, he should climb in the rank.
This isn't how a ranking works! The argument that Jaedong should be in some position in this month's rank based solely on a) his position in last month's rank and b) his performance over the past month is totally invalid, because it does not take into account the performance of any other player to appear on the rank!!
One other note: great point infinity2k9, I wish I'd thought of it myself. Jaedong is probably the best source on Jaedong. In case anyone is interested, here is the quote I think infinity2k9 is referring to:
Honestly, it’s true that I was beginning to doubt myself when I started to slump a bit before. Up until now, I’ve been relying too much purely on my skills and been too easy on myself, but recently as I’ve been gaining wins, I believe I’ve regained the confidence I’ve had in the past. There’s a lot of leagues coming up so I’ll become very busy, but I will work my utmost hardest never to show a slumping state again.
From this translation: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=93288 (thanks Smix)
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United States12607 Posts
On May 17 2009 07:48 Jaeden wrote:
well JWD, the PR should be about who's the strongest player atm, it's the PR.
Great if that's your opinion, but if you're not going to justify it whatsoever I don't think it's a useful contribution to this discussion (especially considering how in detail we've focused on this issue thus far).
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