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Power Rank 05/15/2009 - Page 17

Forum Index > Polls & Liquibet
Post a Reply
Prev 1 15 16 17 18 19 48 Next All
3clipse
Profile Blog Joined September 2008
Canada2555 Posts
May 16 2009 23:10 GMT
#321
Calm just beat gogo and is now #6 elo, second only to jaedong for zerg.

:/
JWD
Profile Blog Joined October 2007
United States12607 Posts
May 16 2009 23:29 GMT
#322
On May 17 2009 08:10 3clipse wrote:
Calm just beat gogo and is now #6 elo, second only to jaedong for zerg.

:/

Awesome, maybe he'll be in next month's PR!
✌
Avidkeystamper
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
United States8556 Posts
May 17 2009 00:03 GMT
#323
On May 17 2009 07:40 JWD wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 17 2009 02:05 Avidkeystamper wrote:
On May 17 2009 01:33 Mogwai wrote:
why are people so adamant about wanting a somewhat static power rank? if we just always saw Bisu, Jaedong @ 1/2, Fantasy, Flash, Leta, Jangbi, Stork @ 3-8 and then random others at 9-10, what purpose do the 1-8 slots hold? what use does it serve if the power rank just reinforces your views of who the best players are? A power rank that shows you, at a glance, recent trends in who's continually kicking ass, and who's starting waves in the progaming scene is much better than one that just tell us who the sc community thinks are the best 10 players in the world, because it tells you something you may not have known and creates discussion,

I haven't read the last five pages but this response is for those saying that if "we don't judge by purely results, and instead by who is potentially better, then Bisu/Flash/JD will always be on top."
Isn't that a dune argument though, the kind banned from SC2 section because it's
1) a logical fallacy and
2) really stupid and narrow.
The power ranks in the past have been a mixture of both results and potential, so I don't see why people are dissing any power rank that considers the name value.
Things are never absolute, it doesn't have to be black and white.

Also, SKT T1 fans generally have a slight bias against Jaedong and vice versa for Oz fans since a large portion of their fanbase is because of that star player.
That was a repost. Spot using the Dune argument.

I'm not sure what exactly in Mogwai's post you're referring to as a logical fallacy, Avidkeystamper (I guess this is a disadvantage of copy/pasting previous posts you've made in this thread). While it of course would be ridiculous to seriously claim that a ranking of the "best" gamers would always contain Bisu/JD/Flash/etc., Mogwai only used "always" in the figurative sense to illustrate his point.

His point is extremely valid, and as I've mentioned previously it's one of the main reasons I decided to write the PR this way. You have to concede that, if my PR was based more on a general sense of "the best players" than on recent performance, it would be a lot less useful as a refresher on recent comings and goings in the BW scene. Part of what I'm trying to get readers to do is understand recent trends in individual performance and debate them - unfortunately, the many posters in this thread seem to want to challenge the basis for my rank rather than start a serious, fact-based argument over who really has been the most powerful Zerg since mid-April (an argument which I think would be much more interesting than the one's we've been busy with instead).

He's saying that if people don't agree with this PR, then they want a static power rank, which is a dune argument that assumes no middle ground.
Jaedong
JWD
Profile Blog Joined October 2007
United States12607 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-05-17 00:19:37
May 17 2009 00:19 GMT
#324
On May 17 2009 09:03 Avidkeystamper wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 17 2009 07:40 JWD wrote:
On May 17 2009 02:05 Avidkeystamper wrote:
On May 17 2009 01:33 Mogwai wrote:
why are people so adamant about wanting a somewhat static power rank? if we just always saw Bisu, Jaedong @ 1/2, Fantasy, Flash, Leta, Jangbi, Stork @ 3-8 and then random others at 9-10, what purpose do the 1-8 slots hold? what use does it serve if the power rank just reinforces your views of who the best players are? A power rank that shows you, at a glance, recent trends in who's continually kicking ass, and who's starting waves in the progaming scene is much better than one that just tell us who the sc community thinks are the best 10 players in the world, because it tells you something you may not have known and creates discussion,

I haven't read the last five pages but this response is for those saying that if "we don't judge by purely results, and instead by who is potentially better, then Bisu/Flash/JD will always be on top."
Isn't that a dune argument though, the kind banned from SC2 section because it's
1) a logical fallacy and
2) really stupid and narrow.
The power ranks in the past have been a mixture of both results and potential, so I don't see why people are dissing any power rank that considers the name value.
Things are never absolute, it doesn't have to be black and white.

Also, SKT T1 fans generally have a slight bias against Jaedong and vice versa for Oz fans since a large portion of their fanbase is because of that star player.
That was a repost. Spot using the Dune argument.

I'm not sure what exactly in Mogwai's post you're referring to as a logical fallacy, Avidkeystamper (I guess this is a disadvantage of copy/pasting previous posts you've made in this thread). While it of course would be ridiculous to seriously claim that a ranking of the "best" gamers would always contain Bisu/JD/Flash/etc., Mogwai only used "always" in the figurative sense to illustrate his point.

His point is extremely valid, and as I've mentioned previously it's one of the main reasons I decided to write the PR this way. You have to concede that, if my PR was based more on a general sense of "the best players" than on recent performance, it would be a lot less useful as a refresher on recent comings and goings in the BW scene. Part of what I'm trying to get readers to do is understand recent trends in individual performance and debate them - unfortunately, the many posters in this thread seem to want to challenge the basis for my rank rather than start a serious, fact-based argument over who really has been the most powerful Zerg since mid-April (an argument which I think would be much more interesting than the one's we've been busy with instead).

He's saying that if people don't agree with this PR, then they want a static power rank, which is a dune argument that assumes no middle ground.

OK I agree, but his post still does a good job of highlighting the shortcomings of what posters like tfeign are arguing is "the true basis for PR".
✌
Avidkeystamper
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
United States8556 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-05-17 00:29:05
May 17 2009 00:21 GMT
#325
Yeah, I know, but many people in this thread that lean one way or another are labeled as only favoring potential or only favoring gameplay by other people, which is untrue.
Jaedong
Linx_101
Profile Joined November 2008
Canada166 Posts
May 17 2009 01:08 GMT
#326
How is Flash descending lower on the PR every month. How is he 8th. To me, that's just ridiculous. Zero has one more win in the Proleague and he's ranked 2nd. Zero just beat a Kal (who is .500 since taking off his glasses) a few times. Flash on the other hand is still doing amazing going 9-4 since the last PR. Some of his losses were to Skyhigh, where he bounced back in their next encounter and to Battle Royal, the most imbalanced map known to SC (Zerg 100% win rate).

Sorry, but I just hate everyone hating on Flash
An eye for an eye will make the whole world blind - Mahatma Gandhi
disciple
Profile Blog Joined January 2008
9071 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-05-17 01:42:20
May 17 2009 01:41 GMT
#327
hey mate, thats untrue! if there is a common thing between 95% of the TL members, besides the boxer fanboysm and the toss girl fetish, is that we all think Flash is the most talented sc player ever. Ppl just have very high expectations for him. We all know the titles will come, the only question is when...
Administrator"I'm a big deal." - ixmike88
Lebesgue
Profile Joined October 2008
4542 Posts
May 17 2009 02:18 GMT
#328
On May 17 2009 10:41 disciple wrote:
hey mate, thats untrue! if there is a common thing between 95% of the TL members, besides the boxer fanboysm and the toss girl fetish, is that we all think Flash is the most talented sc player ever. Ppl just have very high expectations for him. We all know the titles will come, the only question is when...


I think Jaedong and Bisu have more fans at TL than 5%
brjdrb
Profile Blog Joined November 2007
United States577 Posts
May 17 2009 02:25 GMT
#329
On May 17 2009 07:11 disciple wrote:
Bisu has been the best pvp-er for over a year now, I cant understand why ppl even mentioned this MU as BeSt or Storks playground. It takes a simple click on the TLPD to see that KTY is somewhere around 75% in PvP after his 0-3 loss vs stork in Ever OSL... which is a long period of time.


i don't agree with this. go back and watch best's pvp games before incruit and the best vs stork series. it wasn't until after that series that their pvp dropped off enough for bisu to take the crown. i will admit that he's had the best pvp since then, but not for a whole year. sorry if i'm just being a bit nit-picky
Stork's biggest fan
Oystein
Profile Blog Joined December 2004
Norway1602 Posts
May 17 2009 03:01 GMT
#330
On May 17 2009 11:25 brjdrb wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 17 2009 07:11 disciple wrote:
Bisu has been the best pvp-er for over a year now, I cant understand why ppl even mentioned this MU as BeSt or Storks playground. It takes a simple click on the TLPD to see that KTY is somewhere around 75% in PvP after his 0-3 loss vs stork in Ever OSL... which is a long period of time.


i don't agree with this. go back and watch best's pvp games before incruit and the best vs stork series. it wasn't until after that series that their pvp dropped off enough for bisu to take the crown. i will admit that he's had the best pvp since then, but not for a whole year. sorry if i'm just being a bit nit-picky

I guess Stork was the best PvP player up until after Incruit. However Bisu have been an absolute beast in the matchup for a long time now.

Since the EVER series vs Stork hes 42-13 for a 76% winrate PvP that is since February 08 more than a year ago. If we go closer in time, since July after his loss vs chalrenge hes 36-9 for an 80% winrate and that is closing in on a year.

To further strengthening his case for the best PvPer hes never lost a BOx vs anyone but Stork (whom he is 1-2 vs in BOx) and a total of 8-8 in games vs Stork (winning the 2 latest) and hes 3-0 vs Best, including a BO3. Also kind of like Jaedong in ZvZ he seems to constantly overcome build order deficits in PvP (look at how hes defended vs 4gate vs Kal, Jangbi and Free)

Dunno but I would say that hes at least as scary opponent now that Stork\Best ever was when they where at their PvP peaks.
God Hates a Coward
fusionsdf
Profile Blog Joined June 2006
Canada15390 Posts
May 17 2009 03:21 GMT
#331
Best definitely deserved his reputation as a PvP master. 16 wins in a row in a mirror matchup is absolutely insane
SKT_Best: "I actually chose Protoss because it was so hard for me to defeat Protoss as a Terran. When I first started Brood War, my main race was Terran."
Oystein
Profile Blog Joined December 2004
Norway1602 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-05-17 03:56:30
May 17 2009 03:51 GMT
#332
On May 17 2009 12:21 fusionsdf wrote:
Best definitely deserved his reputation as a PvP master. 16 wins in a row in a mirror matchup is absolutely insane

Sure he does, but hes failed every time hes gone up against his hardest opponents Bisu\Stork tho I have to say that without the god damn imba positions on Fantasy he probably would have beaten Stork in Bacchus.

Edit : Come to think of it he did beat Stork with that 2gate proxy on andromeda in OSL group stages, and recently in proleague (but stork have sucked in PvP since incruit) But both time they met in BOx for OSL hes lost.
God Hates a Coward
fusionsdf
Profile Blog Joined June 2006
Canada15390 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-05-17 03:57:43
May 17 2009 03:56 GMT
#333
if stork hadn't forgot range bisu might have lost that series

There was a point where best was dominant PvP. Then there was a period where Stork was dominant PvP. Now Bisu is dominant PvP.
SKT_Best: "I actually chose Protoss because it was so hard for me to defeat Protoss as a Terran. When I first started Brood War, my main race was Terran."
Oystein
Profile Blog Joined December 2004
Norway1602 Posts
May 17 2009 04:03 GMT
#334
On May 17 2009 12:56 fusionsdf wrote:
if stork hadn't forgot range bisu might have lost that series

There was a point where best was dominant PvP. Then there was a period where Stork was dominant PvP. Now Bisu is dominant PvP.

Forgetting range is something you can do something about, being royally fucked on map positions is out of your control.
God Hates a Coward
Geo.Rion
Profile Blog Joined October 2008
7377 Posts
May 17 2009 04:27 GMT
#335
haha, fate always shows if the PR writer is wrong about sg like Luxury losing to everyone after being named the best ZvP now+ Show Spoiler +
, Zero (nr 1 ranked Z) is the first zerg to lose on BR against a T
"Protoss is a joke" Liquid`Jinro Okt.1. 2011
Jaeden
Profile Joined September 2008
Romania1489 Posts
May 17 2009 05:55 GMT
#336
On May 17 2009 11:18 Lebesgue wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 17 2009 10:41 disciple wrote:
hey mate, thats untrue! if there is a common thing between 95% of the TL members, besides the boxer fanboysm and the toss girl fetish, is that we all think Flash is the most talented sc player ever. Ppl just have very high expectations for him. We all know the titles will come, the only question is when...


I think Jaedong and Bisu have more fans at TL than 5%

I dunno about Bisu fans, but JD fans don`t dislike Flash. I for one am a "little" fan of him, he`s a great player and I`m sure he will come back to the top
Boxer: " Lee Jae Dong is the best player. He`s all about the micro; he`s the player which has the most amazing control"
Jaeden
Profile Joined September 2008
Romania1489 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-05-17 06:00:39
May 17 2009 05:58 GMT
#337
Anyyyyway JWD, what I am trying to say is that this PR have the most significant bias from any other PR , even if you agree with this or not
even the fact of placing thezerg at #10 spot is an argument for my statement.

edit: ohh and sorry for being such an ass, you are a nice guy overall, you're just trying to defend ur work :D

edit2: don't get me wrong, that's what all PR writers should do!
Boxer: " Lee Jae Dong is the best player. He`s all about the micro; he`s the player which has the most amazing control"
SerpentFlame
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
418 Posts
May 17 2009 06:15 GMT
#338
On May 17 2009 13:27 Geo.Rion wrote:
haha, fate always shows if the PR writer is wrong about sg like Luxury losing to everyone after being named the best ZvP now+ Show Spoiler +
, Zero (nr 1 ranked Z) is the first zerg to lose on BR against a T

This is a silly argument that has nothing to do with how well players performed last month.
I Wannabe[WHITE], the very BeSt[HyO], like Yo Hwan EVER Oz.......
Avidkeystamper
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
United States8556 Posts
May 17 2009 06:22 GMT
#339
so? The power rank should, by definition, be a good indicator of future performances. Again, see Lucifer vs Pure.
Jaedong
Jaeden
Profile Joined September 2008
Romania1489 Posts
May 17 2009 06:22 GMT
#340
On May 17 2009 15:15 SerpentFlame wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 17 2009 13:27 Geo.Rion wrote:
haha, fate always shows if the PR writer is wrong about sg like Luxury losing to everyone after being named the best ZvP now+ Show Spoiler +
, Zero (nr 1 ranked Z) is the first zerg to lose on BR against a T

This is a silly argument that has nothing to do with how well players performed last month.

that wasn`t even an argument for nothing, read carefully: "FATE"
Boxer: " Lee Jae Dong is the best player. He`s all about the micro; he`s the player which has the most amazing control"
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