I finally got an account on this site, if only to say that Jaedong doesn't deserve the drop, he's lost the odd game, sure, but he hasn't and won't get eliminated from anything at this stage. After the Titanic/Terrific/Terrible Three at the top, I love the play of the next four Zero/Effort/Skyhigh/Leta. Not sure any of these guys will ever reach #1, but they'll be around for sometime.
On the other hand, seeing as how the tenth spot is a bit of a give-away, Baby should've gone there. He beat Jangbi and Modesty in impressive fashion (Game 2 hinged on one miscue, he was brilliant up until he lost his initial push) and got to the finals of his offline qualifier before losing 2-1 to Effort (no shame in that). His raw talent (fending off Jangbi's game 3 zealot harrass, better-than-leta wraith micro), his incredible knack for doing the exact right thing (ninja CC v. Jangbi, speedy Rax v. Modesty) and his sheer entertainment value should've given him #10. I see Baby could go two ways: this could be the best he ever gets, or this could be the start of a brilliant career. Hope to see him higher up next month.
I wouldnt put Zero on third just yet, probably jaedong 3 leta 4 zero 5 but its a hard call, and i wouldnt put effort on six, probably 6 skyhigh, flash 7, effort 8 calm 9, removing kespa
not sure why calm is not on PR, he is really playing great..
i haven't seen all of thezerg's games (none from this last week), but i don't think he deserves #10. sure, he's gotten results, but that's not what's important in the PR. at least not as much as how they played. and honestly, thezerg hasn't looked that great (osl games especially). i think great deserves the spot instead. he's played really well, and against tough opponents. i definitely don't agree that zero's zvz is close to jaedong's, but he may very well have taken over lux's spot at #2 (good lord lux is playing terribly). besides that, it's a good writeup. i'm glad there was some flair and bias. no offense, but FS isn't exactly neutral on everything either. the point of the PR isn't necessarily to be 100% right, but to create some discussion.
p.s. thanks for stepping up. will you be doing the PR regularly?
edit: i know he hasn't had the best performances, but i liked pure's play this month. hopefully he can at least get a CNBC next time
On May 15 2009 14:22 Avidkeystamper wrote: If you decided to revolutionize how the power rank works, I think that you also expected resistance from the masses. Imo, it would've been a better move to apply a less radical philosophy to some lesser known players so your intent isn't lost in a wave of fury.
Honestly I don't think this PR or the thought behind it is very revolutionary at all. Power Ranking has always been about striking some balance between who we consider to be the "best" players in hypothetical Best-of-99999 series and who we think has played the best over the past month. Previous PR writers have merely put more stress on the former than I do.
This power rank has a complete lack of the benefit of the doubt. Other power ranks stress the name factor which is completely irrevelant in this one. Also, this one says (and shows) that it takes into account only the last month's games, while other power ranks are about the best (not best performing) player at the time the power rank is released. Consider when Hwasin was tearing it up at the beginning of the starleagues, effortly beating players such as Flash, Jaedong, and BeSt. I recall he got a spot like low 7s. He certainly performed better, but people knew from precedent that he was not actually the better player at that time. This power rank is revolutionary, perhaps too much. A good example is Mani's power rank, which heavily emphasizes the name factor or the fact that Bisu and Savior remained on top even after their drubbing in the finals. You're the first one to completely discard every factor except gameplayplayer's stats.
On May 15 2009 14:57 Avidkeystamper wrote: Hey JWD, how close was ZerO and Fantasy to switching spots on this PR? I'd like to hear your thoughts.
The top 5 players in this rank are all absurdly close, so I'm not going to speak in absolute terms here. But ZerO was further behind Fantasy than Jaedong was behind ZerO, by some margin. The main reason for this is (and this is something which separates Fantasy from JD as well) that I see Fantasy as not only an S-class playerwho is in top form in every way, but also the game's biggest threat as a tactical innovator (possibly with the help of oov and boxer at every turn). We see this come out in his games every month, and last was no exception: hidden expo on Outsider vs. Anytime, for example. Fantasy's ability to come up with and execute unique and successful builds just puts him a cut above ZerO and JD at the moment I think, but Bisu had the far more convincing performance over the past month.
rofl are you serious? you "see" fantasy as an s-class player losing to players he shouldnt if he is s-class (hogil/calm). but some kind of tactical innovator? (oh no, hidden expo, we have NEVER seen that before in sc scene)
hell, most of your results is just based on a players stats for the month, nothing else. otherwise, there is no way fantasy would be above zero (im not gonna even go into jaedong, we all know how simply retarded it was that he is below fantasy and zero) zero has won more! shouldn't he be above fantasy by your standards?
thezerg above calm? i dont get your rationale. thezerg got knocked out of the osl and gets rewarded a rank in the top 10. i guess now proleague > msl > osl
On May 16 2009 03:18 tfeign wrote: The power rank is NOT about who has the best last month in Starcraft. If that's what you solely use to determine players in the power rank, then you are wrong again.
It's almost comical that you're willing to speak in such absolute terms about something which is clearly subjective and you have absolutely no control over. Here's a proposition: I wrote this Power Rank, and that gives me the right do determine what it is based on (within reason).
You've come into this thread, claimed the Power Rank is based on criteria which differ from the criteria which I had in mind when I wrote it, and then criticized my ranking based on your claimed criteria. Do you realize how ridiculous that is?
Here's an exaggerated example to help: I decide to rank gamers according to the sexiness of their haircuts. You come along and tell me that my PR is garbage because gamers should be ranked according to the sexiness of their wardrobes, and then proceed to criticize my ranking based on the fact that the 4th-ranked player has a sexier wardrobe than the 3rd-ranked player.
The criteria of the PR has never been in question. I'm telling you that solely and exclusively using the last month of Starcraft results alone to determine players in the power rank is not how it should be. It has never been what the PR is, and it will never be accepted by readers.
People want to know the who are the best players, that's why the PR was created, and the only reason why the PR was created. The PR was not made to list who has the best stats in the last month of Starcraft.
Watch your absolutes. I am not "solely and exclusively using the last month of SC results alone", and I've already covered that several times.
Just saying "the PR was created because people want to know who the best players are" is too simplistic. You need a timeframe - otherwise, every PR would include Boxer, Savior, and iloveoov ("the best players" ever). Because the PR is a monthly affair, the natural thing to do is to set that timeframe to one month. Once again: that's not to say, though, that I think results from previous months should be totally ignored - just substantially downplayed vs. more recent results.
I'm obviously aware that I don't have the reputation of, say, Mani or FS here at TL. This only furthered my desire to slightly change the PR's basis - while Mani or FS might be able to get away with posting the PR as what they think the results of a Bo99999 ladder between every pro SC player would look like (not that they have, this is a hypothetical for argument's sake), I surely wouldn't. Nobody wants to read "some guy"'s opinion of who the scariest progamers are right now, so to make the PR informative and relevant I figured I would need to make its focus a bit more concrete. By stressing recent results I feel like I made the PR worth reading, if only as a refresher on the major trends in individual skill over the past month of SC. Whether you disagree with my rank, I think you have to concede that it would have been a hell of a lot less useful if I wrote it with less focus on recent results and more on my abstract sense of "who is better" at SC right now.
Yes, the PR was created solely for the purpose of listing who are the best players. It has never been just about who's got the best stats in the last month. It was created to list out the best players, based subjectively on many different factors -- the last month's result, though is important, is only one of such factors. There is indeed a timeframe as we all know it. Of course no one in their right mind would put Boxer or oov in the top PR, but at the same time no one in their right mind should put Zero over Jaedong either.
A couple of unimportant games against lower caliber players does not in any way, shape, or form justify him as the best current zerg. It doesn't matter that Jaedong has a couple more losses than Zero, or what kind of leagues Zero is alive in. Zero can never be labeled as the best current zerg until he can prove himself far in a Starleague.
The only way you can somehow make an argument of Zero>Jaedong is if you somehow only solely and exclusively just take into account the last month of results, completely ignoring what kind of games they are, regardless whether they're merely qualifiers or the final of a Starleague, and completely ignore everything beyond the last month. Hell, one can even make a point if in the last month Zero won a Starleague title, or defeated top-ranked Kespa or ELO players in a bo5 of an important league. Zero did none of that. He's accomplished nothing. Nada. Zero. No pun intended. You need to understand that to solidify yourself as the best, it takes a lot more than just a couple of extra wins in games that aren't even important to begin with.
Not only is it that you overconsider the value of recent results, you also overconsider the value of the importance of the games played. A PR that places a big emphasis on just the last month's worth results usually only happens when the last month's of results included the conclusion of a Starleague or two. None of that happened, nothing even close to that happened. You need to understand that a player who loses say, 10 games, but at the same wins a Starleague title, would be considered better than a player who won 10 unimportant games but hasn't gotten anywhere far in the league. Zero has not proven anything in the leagues and until he can start putting up solid results in a Starleague against its stiff competition, labeling him as the best current zerg, on top of an S-class player who's proven himself for years, just won an OSL title, and is still putting up rock-solid results (80% win in his last 10 games), is incomprehensible and inconceivable.
On May 16 2009 07:21 piratebay wrote: hell, most of your results is just based on a players stats for the month, nothing else. otherwise, there is no way fantasy would be above zero (im not gonna even go into jaedong, we all know how simply retarded it was that he is below fantasy and zero) zero has won more! shouldn't he be above fantasy by your standards?
Do you realize how self-contradictory this paragraph is? Come on man, you can do better. I can't make much sense of your arguments, so I'll delay responding to them to give you a chance to clean them up a bit.
rofl are you serious? you "see" fantasy as an s-class player losing to players he shouldnt if he is s-class (hogil/calm). but some kind of tactical innovator? (oh no, hidden expo, we have NEVER seen that before in sc scene)
Knowing when and where to place those made OoV a tactical innovator. Also, every S- class player drops games to lesser players (Jaedong v Ganzi, Bisu v Great?), and Fantasy, unlike some other ex-S-class players, has only dropped 2.
Yes, the PR was created solely for the purpose of listing who are the best players. It has never been just about who's got the best stats in the last month. It was created to list out the best players, based subjectively on many different factors -- the last month's result, though is important, is only one of such factors. There is indeed a timeframe as we all know it. Of course no one in their right mind would put Boxer or oov in the top PR, but at the same time no one in their right mind should put Zero over Jaedong either.
By your logic, Jangbi, Luxury, and Stork still deserve a spot then don't they? PR's wouldn't show changes for years if this indeed was the case.
On May 16 2009 03:18 tfeign wrote: The power rank is NOT about who has the best last month in Starcraft. If that's what you solely use to determine players in the power rank, then you are wrong again.
It's almost comical that you're willing to speak in such absolute terms about something which is clearly subjective and you have absolutely no control over. Here's a proposition: I wrote this Power Rank, and that gives me the right do determine what it is based on (within reason).
You've come into this thread, claimed the Power Rank is based on criteria which differ from the criteria which I had in mind when I wrote it, and then criticized my ranking based on your claimed criteria. Do you realize how ridiculous that is?
Here's an exaggerated example to help: I decide to rank gamers according to the sexiness of their haircuts. You come along and tell me that my PR is garbage because gamers should be ranked according to the sexiness of their wardrobes, and then proceed to criticize my ranking based on the fact that the 4th-ranked player has a sexier wardrobe than the 3rd-ranked player.
The criteria of the PR has never been in question. I'm telling you that solely and exclusively using the last month of Starcraft results alone to determine players in the power rank is not how it should be. It has never been what the PR is, and it will never be accepted by readers.
People want to know the who are the best players, that's why the PR was created, and the only reason why the PR was created. The PR was not made to list who has the best stats in the last month of Starcraft.
Watch your absolutes. I am not "solely and exclusively using the last month of SC results alone", and I've already covered that several times.
Just saying "the PR was created because people want to know who the best players are" is too simplistic. You need a timeframe - otherwise, every PR would include Boxer, Savior, and iloveoov ("the best players" ever). Because the PR is a monthly affair, the natural thing to do is to set that timeframe to one month. Once again: that's not to say, though, that I think results from previous months should be totally ignored - just substantially downplayed vs. more recent results.
I'm obviously aware that I don't have the reputation of, say, Mani or FS here at TL. This only furthered my desire to slightly change the PR's basis - while Mani or FS might be able to get away with posting the PR as what they think the results of a Bo99999 ladder between every pro SC player would look like (not that they have, this is a hypothetical for argument's sake), I surely wouldn't. Nobody wants to read "some guy"'s opinion of who the scariest progamers are right now, so to make the PR informative and relevant I figured I would need to make its focus a bit more concrete. By stressing recent results I feel like I made the PR worth reading, if only as a refresher on the major trends in individual skill over the past month of SC. Whether you disagree with my rank, I think you have to concede that it would have been a hell of a lot less useful if I wrote it with less focus on recent results and more on my abstract sense of "who is better" at SC right now.
Yes, the PR was created solely for the purpose of listing who are the best players. It has never been just about who's got the best stats in the last month. It was created to list out the best players, based subjectively on many different factors -- the last month's result, though is important, is only one of such factors. There is indeed a timeframe as we all know it. Of course no one in their right mind would put Boxer or oov in the top PR, but at the same time no one in their right mind should put Zero over Jaedong either.
A couple of unimportant games against lower caliber players does not in any way, shape, or form justify him as the best current zerg. It doesn't matter that Jaedong has a couple more losses than Zero, or what kind of leagues Zero is alive in. Zero can never be labeled as the best current zerg until he can prove himself far in a Starleague.
The only way you can somehow make an argument of Zero>Jaedong is if you somehow only solely and exclusively just take into account the last month of results, completely ignoring what kind of games they are, regardless whether they're merely qualifiers or the final of a Starleague, and completely ignore everything beyond the last month. Hell, one can even make a point if in the last month Zero won a Starleague title, or defeated top-ranked Kespa or ELO players in a bo5 of an important league. Zero did none of that. He's accomplished nothing. Nada. Zero. No pun intended. You need to understand that to solidify yourself as the best, it takes a lot more than just a couple of extra wins in games that aren't even important to begin with.
Not only is it that you overconsider the value of recent results, you also overconsider the value of the importance of the games played. A PR that places a big emphasis on just the last month's worth results usually only happens when the last month's of results included the conclusion of a Starleague or two. None of that happened, nothing even close to that happened. You need to understand that a player who loses say, 10 games, but at the same wins a Starleague title, would be considered better than a player who won 10 unimportant games but hasn't gotten anywhere far in the league. Zero has not proven anything in the leagues and until he can start putting up solid results in a Starleague against its stiff competition, labeling him as the best current zerg, on top of an S-class player who's proven himself for years, just won an OSL title, and is still putting up rock-solid results (80% win in his last 10 games), is incomprehensible and inconceivable.
tfeign, I'm not really sure what else I can say to you. I've already tried several times to get across the basis for my PR but you keep insisting it's "entirely stats-based" and an attempt at ranking "the best players". If you're just going to refuse to accept the basis for my ranking, there's no possible way for me to debate it with you.
If you think the PR should be written as something other than how I wrote it (a ranking of "the last month's most powerful SC players"), that's fine. Point taken. But please stop trying to insist that there is only one valid basis for a PR, or that nobody has ever challenged that basis, or that that basis means my rank is incorrect. None of those points is valid.
I haven't read the last five pages but this response is for those saying that if "we don't judge by purely results, and instead by who is potentially better, then Bisu/Flash/JD will always be on top." Isn't that a dune argument though, the kind banned from SC2 section because it's 1) a logical fallacy and 2) really stupid and narrow. The power ranks in the past have been a mixture of both results and potential, so I don't see why people are dissing any power rank that considers the name value. Things are never absolute, it doesn't have to be black and white.
Also, SKT T1 fans generally have a slight bias against Jaedong and vice versa for Oz fans since a large portion of their fanbase is because of that star player.
The Power Rankings are a listing of the strongest players in the game right now. What that means, is that they're a hybrid of sorts, obviously a premium is placed on recent results (which is why Luxury's impressive pedigree gets him nowhere this month) because these show the player's current abilities and mentality. But with some players (see: Bisu in last month's rankings) we simply know that one loss or two losses here or there is to be expected but not representative of some major decline. These players have established themselves to be top-flight players and are entitled to hiccups.
Power rankings by this definition are also a rough prediction (based on recent results and history) on how they'll do next month. But obviously that's never perfect.
I think all of the people saying JD should be above ZerO have a point. Boxing has a great rule, the challenger has to convincingly beat the champion in order for the challenger to win a decision fight. In other words, in a close fight, the champ retains the belt. I think that has to be added to the appendix of the new power ranking philosophy.
(Just my 2 cents: Besides, JD is a scarier player and that puts him over the edge, because its a strength that ZerO cannot yet claim.)
That was a good read. Of course, I don't agree with it 100% but I seldom ever do so it's cool it's cool. I'm just waiting for the day an ACE player takes the board. Personally, I'm hoping for either Reach or Anytime, but any will do.
EPT
Bisu
Jaedong
fantasy
