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I forgot this was the Proleague Power Rank. Like I said, your excuse for putting him in the 10th is that he's on a good team instead of a struggling one. I've always found it more impressive for great players to emerge from weaker teams, as they obviously have less resources. It should be a detriment that TheZerg is on the most dominant team this round, not a bonus to his success.
The caliber of players he's gone against isn't specifically better than the others (Great beat your #1, sorry). Using teams as an excuse to rank a player higher than others is a poor one. Might as well put Hiya up there because he beat Flash and other decent players and is on the #1 team, right?
But if the PR is purely about record and nothing else (and you're including team records as well since that's obviously a viable reason now), Jaedong may as well go win another OSL but not get #1 because he dropped 2 games in it. "Sorry, his 4 Losses between those 2 Bo5 series he won were more than X player who only lost 3!"
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United States12607 Posts
On May 16 2009 02:26 TwoToneTerran wrote:
I forgot this was the Proleague Power Rank/
If this is sarcasm, it fails. This pretty much is the "Proleague Power Rank", since the vast majority of games played over the past month were in PL.
Like I said, your excuse for putting him in the 10th is that he's on a good team instead of a struggling one.
You've got the causation the wrong way around. What I said was that Thezerg's performance is what caused him to be on a sickeningly good team this round of PL, not that being on a sickeningly good team caused Thezerg's performance (and thus his PR rank). Obviously the argument "team is good -> player is good" is pretty much worthless, but it's not the one I am making.
Might as well put Hiya up there because he beat Flash and other decent players and is on the #1 team, right?
There's many things wrong with HiyA in 10th (like...for example...he lost to Thezerg) but the most obvious objection to this rhetorical question is: OZ isn't the number one team in R4 of PL...they're actually struggling quite a bit.
But if the PR is purely about record and nothing else
Absolutely no idea where you are getting this idea...from the original text of the PR through all of my responses to comments in this thread, I have consistently weighed other factors besides straight wins-losses.
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On May 16 2009 02:39 JWD wrote:
There's many things wrong with HiyA in 10th (like...for example...he lost to Thezerg) but the most obvious objection to this rhetorical question is: OZ isn't the number one team in R4 of PL...they're actually struggling quite a bit.
And flash is on the worst team of R4, so Hiya>Flash?
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Your only reason for dropping Jaedong is Zero had, technically, a better record. I mean sure, I like the cool infested terran trick, but that's not something that makes him better than Jaedong. I'm personally impressed by his zvz...but he's still weaker than Jaedong in that aspect, too. Oh hey he's qualified for GOM -- so did Jaedong. Well atleast he's seeded for the MSL, ah, wait, Jaedong just finished qualifying in characteristic style -- but hey being seeded should count for something, right? It's hard to get to the top of a league, so I'd give the edge to Zero here.
Ah, yeah, Zero also qualified for the OSL, excellent! Good player that definitely deserves it. Too bad Jaedong is seeded for winning it.
Zero is not as good as Jaedong. He has a better record in the past month because Jaedong dropped games that didn't matter after winning an OSL. Jaedong has done everything that was expected of him, even so much as bringing OZ in a 3 game winning streak recently, but for that he gets dropped 3 places and called second best zerg. If Jaedong is the second best Zerg, then I'm The Emperor himself.
Onto Da Zurg, you literally said:
The primary reason I gave Thezerg the nod over a slew of other players with admittedly similar records is that his recent performance reflects a major turnaround not only in his individual skill, but the strength of his entire team. T1's remarkable dominance in R4 of PL (no this is not blind fandom, I mean for fuck's sake SK Telecom T1 is in SECOND PLACE in Fantasy PL at the moment) would simply not have been possible without Thezerg, and that means that his wins over the past month mean just that much more than those of say, Calm or by.great.
So, if Stork and Jangbi and Firebathero were tearing it up Bisu, Best, and Fantasy style, Great would be 10 because he shows Khan is not the SKT1 look-alike they've been for rounds prior, as now they have a reliably good Zerg who takes big games off top opponents, right?
Samsung would be in even a bigger hole without Great, so what? That doesn't make him somehow better. The names Samsung and SKT1 should mean jack all when it comes to 'who's the better player'. The other SKT1 players' performances shouldn't mean anything. But here you are, saying he's #10 because he rounds out SKT1 well.
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United States12607 Posts
On May 16 2009 02:42 SuperArc wrote:Show nested quote +On May 16 2009 02:39 JWD wrote:
There's many things wrong with HiyA in 10th (like...for example...he lost to Thezerg) but the most obvious objection to this rhetorical question is: OZ isn't the number one team in R4 of PL...they're actually struggling quite a bit. And flash is on the worst team of R4, so Hiya>Flash?
a) KTF isn't the worst team of R4...
b) If you read my post you must know that I'm thoroughly opposed to ranking players based on how their teams are performing independently of those players' individual contributions to that performance, so I'm confused as to what you're getting at with this question.
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United States12607 Posts
On May 16 2009 02:44 TwoToneTerran wrote:
Your only reason for dropping Jaedong is Zero had, technically, a better record.
This is simply false.
On May 16 2009 02:44 TwoToneTerran wrote:
Jaedong dropped games that didn't matter after winning an OSL.
This statement makes you look either totally compromised by an affinity for Jaedong or horribly ignorant. As I covered a few pages back, Jaedong's losses to Movie and Fantasy in the PL are probably what lost Hwaseung its matches against T1 and CJ, who are the very teams it is trying to beat back to maintain its position atop the Proleague. It's beyond foolish to say that match-breaking losses against the #2 and #3 teams in Proleague are "games that didn't matter".
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On May 16 2009 02:52 JWD wrote:Show nested quote +On May 16 2009 02:44 TwoToneTerran wrote:
Your only reason for dropping Jaedong is Zero had, technically, a better record. This is simply false. Show nested quote +On May 16 2009 02:44 TwoToneTerran wrote:
Jaedong dropped games that didn't matter after winning an OSL. This statement makes you look either totally compromised by an affinity for Jaedong or horribly ignorant. As I covered a few pages back, Jaedong's losses to Movie and Fantasy in the PL are probably what lost Hwaseung its matches against T1 and CJ, who are the very teams it is trying to beat back to maintain its position atop the Proleague. It's beyond foolish to say that match-breaking losses against the #2 and #3 teams in Proleague are "games that didn't matter".
You are seriously saying Jaedong should be unbeatable in proleague to be better than Zero?
Let's drop Fantasy down a peg for losing the game to Hite, it's obviously his fault his team can't get three wins without him.
Jeez.
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Calgary26004 Posts
On May 16 2009 02:59 TwoToneTerran wrote:Show nested quote +On May 16 2009 02:52 JWD wrote:On May 16 2009 02:44 TwoToneTerran wrote:
Your only reason for dropping Jaedong is Zero had, technically, a better record. This is simply false. On May 16 2009 02:44 TwoToneTerran wrote:
Jaedong dropped games that didn't matter after winning an OSL. This statement makes you look either totally compromised by an affinity for Jaedong or horribly ignorant. As I covered a few pages back, Jaedong's losses to Movie and Fantasy in the PL are probably what lost Hwaseung its matches against T1 and CJ, who are the very teams it is trying to beat back to maintain its position atop the Proleague. It's beyond foolish to say that match-breaking losses against the #2 and #3 teams in Proleague are "games that didn't matter". You are seriously saying Jaedong should be unbeatable in proleague to be better than Zero? Let's drop Fantasy down a peg for losing the game to Hite, it's obviously his fault his team can't get three wins without him. Jeez.
Let's not oversimplify things and get sarcastic in this discussion, okay?
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Alright, but if he's seriously suggesting that dropping a round or two in proleague are enough to demonize a top player because it 'lost his team the match,' then he should take into account Fantasy dropping against Hogil when SKT lost to Hite, and Zero dropping to Leta in the ace match of all things against Hite. But he doesn't -- these factors only seem to matter to Jaedong. He seems to place higher standards on Jaedong than he does a newer zerg, yet still claims the newer zerg is the better one. The only thing of Zero's that's better is his ultra-recent record.
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Slightly stupid request, but could you please rename "by.Fantasy" to just "Fantasy" and "Thezerg[Alive]" to "Thezerg"? They're screwing up the layout of the PR on the right and it's just been gnawing at me all day..
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United States12607 Posts
On May 16 2009 03:03 TwoToneTerran wrote:
Alright, but if he's seriously suggesting that dropping a round or two in proleague are enough to demonize a top player because it 'lost his team the match,' then he should take into account Fantasy dropping against Hogil when SKT lost to Hite, and Zero dropping to Leta in the ace match of all things against Hite. But he doesn't -- these factors only seem to matter to Jaedong.
Nope...I'm aware of (and have addressed, if briefly in Fantasy's case) both Fantasy's loss to HoGiL and Zero's loss to Leta:
HoGiL is actually Thezerg's stiffest competition for the 10-spot. He's come out of nowhere to go 5-1 in PL R4 including wins over Fantasy (who played a silly game)
I should specify what I mean here: I don't think Fantasy's game against HoGiL was characteristic of his overall performance this past month simply because he tried an extremely unorthodox (even for him) strategy that clearly led to his loss. That doesn't erase the fact that HogiL played a very solid game, though.
Another aspect of JD's play to consider is performance in clutch matches for OZ: his losses to Fantasy and Movie in PL weren't just uncharacteristic, they probably cost Hwaseung its matches against T1 and CJ - the two teams with which OZ is really competing at the top of the PL rankings right now. Bisu, Fantasy, and ZerO have, for the most part, been rock solid in their biggest PL matches (ZerO's fresh loss to Leta in the ace of Hite-WJ comes to mind, but remember he beat Yarnc earlier in the match to give WJ a shot at the 5set in the first place).
On May 16 2009 03:03 TwoToneTerran wrote:He seems to place higher standards on Jaedong than he does a newer zerg, yet still claims the newer zerg is the better one. The only thing of Zero's that's better is his ultra-recent record.
Again, no...I've never anywhere in this thread claimed that ZerO is "a better Zerg" than Jaedong without any qualifiers. My claim, and the reason that ZerO is one spot above JD in this ranking, is that over the past month of StarCraft ZerO has been more powerful than Jaedong. And in supporting that claim, yes, the fact that ZerO has a better "ultra-recent record" goes a long way - though there are plenty of other reasons I've ranked him above JD.
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United States12607 Posts
On May 16 2009 03:10 TwoToneTerran wrote:
Like?
I'm getting tired of quoting myself to you, so I think at this point I'm just going to ask you to please review the text of the original PR and the posts I've made in this thread to see if you can find examples for yourself.
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Calgary26004 Posts
On May 16 2009 03:03 TwoToneTerran wrote:
Alright, but if he's seriously suggesting that dropping a round or two in proleague are enough to demonize a top player because it 'lost his team the match,' then he should take into account Fantasy dropping against Hogil when SKT lost to Hite, and Zero dropping to Leta in the ace match of all things against Hite. But he doesn't -- these factors only seem to matter to Jaedong. He seems to place higher standards on Jaedong than he does a newer zerg, yet still claims the newer zerg is the better one. The only thing of Zero's that's better is his ultra-recent record.
The nice thing about power rank is that it's subjective. Everyone takes into account their own combination of streaks, mentality, team morale, map history, player history as well as countless other factors. That's what makes it fun 
Who knows if losing those games lost OZ the matches? JWD has stated clearly that his analysis is based on the assumption that they affected team morale. I can see why he holds Jaedong to a higher standard because everyone in Starcraft holds him to a higher standard. I don't think it's unreasonable to assume OZ relies on Jaedong more than SKT relies on Fantasy or Woojin relies on Zero. Personally, I don't think that analysis should entire into Power Rank, but I can see JWD's point and it makes sense to me. He's stated his assumptions and I can follow their logic.
There's no reason to be surprised we reached a different outcome because we followed a different path. That's what I like about the Power Rank.
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On May 16 2009 00:00 JWD wrote:I want to address your post first because it's a lot nicer than the others in this thread  . I'm going to keep it short because I think I've already written nearly everything I'd like to write about Zero vs. Jaedong - check out my comment towards the top of page 4 of this thread for an explanation which I think will address the core of the argument you presented in your post here (seems to be "JD hasn't fallen off nearly enough to be in 4th position this month"). The jist is that, while JD is still a monster and his 5 recent losses do not say much about his odds in all of the bazillion SLs he's still alive in, they're still five losses - that's three more than ZerO who, I should remind you, just 4-0d into the OSL Ro16, is alive in GOM, and a MSL seed (how many people can say they're alive in 3 leagues? Not many...ZerO is one too though ^^).
Are you seriously trying to say that THREE more losses in offseason games is enough to consider Zero the new best player? This is an argument so absurd I can't fathom where to even begin with. Again, you are spitting on all of Jaedong's past performance and is somehow valuing a bunch few unimportant games against low caliber players over a recent OSL win, years of absolute dominance, and still a rock-solid record. Did I mention Jaedong is 8-2 in his last 10 games?
And why are some people confused about the definition of the power rank? There has NEVER NEVER EVER been any questions about what the power rank really is. It has always been about who's the best player right now. Obviously recent results matter more, but how anybody can make any kind of sensible argument that recent results have shown that Zero is a currently a better player than Jaedong is completely ridiculous.
A couple more wins in insignificant games don't get you a free pass to be considered the best zerg. Period. If you debate against this, you are wrong. It doesn't matter that Jaedong has 3 more losses than Zero. It doesn't matter what kind of leagues Zero is alive in. Zero is not the best current zerg. Nothing Zero has done justifies him as the best zerg. No reputable Korean e-sports analyst would consider Zero as the best zerg player right now. He has a lot more to prove. Try winning a Starleague, or at least top 3, then we can talk.
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Calgary26004 Posts
On May 16 2009 03:07 dmfg wrote:
Slightly stupid request, but could you please rename "by.Fantasy" to just "Fantasy" and "Thezerg[Alive]" to "Thezerg"? They're screwing up the layout of the PR on the right and it's just been gnawing at me all day..
I also agree. I don't know if it's possible with the Power Rank code, but would you be offended if I changed it JWD? I personally like when it's just their ID and nothing else.
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United States12607 Posts
On May 16 2009 03:14 tfeign wrote:Show nested quote +On May 16 2009 00:00 JWD wrote:I want to address your post first because it's a lot nicer than the others in this thread . I'm going to keep it short because I think I've already written nearly everything I'd like to write about Zero vs. Jaedong - check out my comment towards the top of page 4 of this thread for an explanation which I think will address the core of the argument you presented in your post here (seems to be "JD hasn't fallen off nearly enough to be in 4th position this month"). The jist is that, while JD is still a monster and his 5 recent losses do not say much about his odds in all of the bazillion SLs he's still alive in, they're still five losses - that's three more than ZerO who, I should remind you, just 4-0d into the OSL Ro16, is alive in GOM, and a MSL seed (how many people can say they're alive in 3 leagues? Not many...ZerO is one too though ^^). Are you seriously trying to say that THREE more losses in offseason games is enough to consider Zero the new best player?
NO. See my post just a bit up this page:
On May 16 2009 03:09 JWD wrote:
Again, no...I've never anywhere in this thread claimed that ZerO is "a better Zerg" than Jaedong without any qualifiers. My claim, and the reason that ZerO is one spot above JD in this ranking, is that over the past month of StarCraft ZerO has been more powerful than Jaedong. And in supporting that claim, yes, the fact that ZerO has a better "ultra-recent record" goes a long way - though there are plenty of other reasons I've ranked him above JD.
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United States12607 Posts
On May 16 2009 03:15 Chill wrote:Show nested quote +On May 16 2009 03:07 dmfg wrote:
Slightly stupid request, but could you please rename "by.Fantasy" to just "Fantasy" and "Thezerg[Alive]" to "Thezerg"? They're screwing up the layout of the PR on the right and it's just been gnawing at me all day.. I also agree. I don't know if it's possible with the Power Rank code, but would you be offended if I changed it JWD? I personally like when it's just their ID and nothing else.
Not at all, in fact this is a change I'd like to see too. FakeSteve entered the names this way and I don't have the capability to edit them (or the OP ). So go ahead!
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Calgary26004 Posts
On May 16 2009 03:14 tfeign wrote:Show nested quote +On May 16 2009 00:00 JWD wrote:I want to address your post first because it's a lot nicer than the others in this thread . I'm going to keep it short because I think I've already written nearly everything I'd like to write about Zero vs. Jaedong - check out my comment towards the top of page 4 of this thread for an explanation which I think will address the core of the argument you presented in your post here (seems to be "JD hasn't fallen off nearly enough to be in 4th position this month"). The jist is that, while JD is still a monster and his 5 recent losses do not say much about his odds in all of the bazillion SLs he's still alive in, they're still five losses - that's three more than ZerO who, I should remind you, just 4-0d into the OSL Ro16, is alive in GOM, and a MSL seed (how many people can say they're alive in 3 leagues? Not many...ZerO is one too though ^^). Are you seriously trying to say that THREE more losses in offseason games is enough to consider Zero the new best player? This is an argument so absurd I can't fathom where to even begin with. Again, you are spitting on all of Jaedong's past performance and is somehow valuing a bunch few unimportant games against low caliber players over a recent OSL win, years of absolute dominance, and still a rock-solid record. Did I mention Jaedong is 8-2 in his last 10 games? And why are some people confused about the definition of the power rank? There has NEVER NEVER EVER been any questions about what the power rank really is. It has always been about who's the best player right now. Obviously recent results matter more, but how anybody can make any kind of sensible argument that recent results have shown that Zero is a currently a better player than Jaedong is completely ridiculous. A couple more wins in insignificant games don't get you a free pass to be considered the best zerg. Period. If you debate against this, you are wrong. It doesn't matter that Jaedong has 3 more losses than Zero. It doesn't matter what kind of leagues Zero is alive in. Zero is not the best current zerg. Nothing Zero has done justifies him as the best zerg. No reputable Korean e-sports analyst would consider Zero as the best zerg player right now. He has a lot more to prove. Try winning a Starleague, or at least top 3, then we can talk.
By your own statement, having won a starleage should have no affect on the Power Rank.
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On May 16 2009 03:15 JWD wrote:Show nested quote +On May 16 2009 03:14 tfeign wrote:On May 16 2009 00:00 JWD wrote:I want to address your post first because it's a lot nicer than the others in this thread . I'm going to keep it short because I think I've already written nearly everything I'd like to write about Zero vs. Jaedong - check out my comment towards the top of page 4 of this thread for an explanation which I think will address the core of the argument you presented in your post here (seems to be "JD hasn't fallen off nearly enough to be in 4th position this month"). The jist is that, while JD is still a monster and his 5 recent losses do not say much about his odds in all of the bazillion SLs he's still alive in, they're still five losses - that's three more than ZerO who, I should remind you, just 4-0d into the OSL Ro16, is alive in GOM, and a MSL seed (how many people can say they're alive in 3 leagues? Not many...ZerO is one too though ^^). Are you seriously trying to say that THREE more losses in offseason games is enough to consider Zero the new best player? NO. See the post two above yours.
The power rank is NOT about who has the best last month in Starcraft. If that's what you solely use to determine players in the power rank, then you are wrong again.
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EPT
