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I agree with Steve, and disagree with a load of other people. I think Bisu is still the absolute best player in a BoX series. Game 5 was the worst mistake he has ever made in a televised match as far as I can recall, but it wasn't due to nerves. This man has been to the finals and won them enough times for nerves to be non-factor for either of them - both had -_- faces. Maybe -_-; at the end.
There is a reason Bisu has 4 golds and 1 silver in major leagues unlike Stork who has 6 silvers and 2 golds. Jaedong has 4* golds and 2 silvers, which is definitely comparable. He is also very good at BoX series, but Bisu's 4-1 gold-silver domination simply tells me of a mastery of an art. There have not been many other BoX matches that Bisu lost since his first gold medal. Jaedong however is famous for always finishing 1-3 or 3-1, which isn't that great in terms of consistency - he either rapes or gets raped. Today was the first day he was pushed beyond that, and game 5 (BISU'S MISTAKE, I ACKNOWLEDGE) left that as a question.
I think Bisu is the best player out there right now, and by extension the best player (in terms of overall skill) to have ever played the game. Jaedong is VERY close. So is Flash. But Bisu is definitely #1 this month. Jaedong is definitely #2. If Flash wasn't eliminated from both leagues, I'm sure he would be #3. That's how it is right now - it's like what used to be the place of a bonjwa is taken up by 3 people right now, sitting on top of a serfdom of other players. And Bisu's results and record since Jan 1st tell me that he is sitting just an inch higher than the other two.
EDIT: Fixed Jaedong's medal count, forgot about GOM Classic #1.
EDIT 2: Let's all pray for JD vs. Bisu OSL finals. I would love to see that more than anything, this time without any serious slips like probe sneaking by and seeing EVERYthing while Jaedong has 12+ lings, and Bisu's ramp block rofl.
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On March 02 2009 00:43 Jaeden wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2009 23:53 DamageControL wrote:On March 01 2009 23:33 zhaoli86 wrote:
Bisu and Jaedong are tied 3-3 in the last 6 matches they had. So for now I say they are about even. No because that proleague and series play are two entirely different beasts. There aren't many players in the world better than Bisu at playing a series as opposed to individual games but JD is one of them. JD was better that series, I guess, I need to watch the games more. I understand one of them was just a giant fuck up. So that means that it could be that Bisu one two and JD won two and Bisu lost one, while we have no idea how that one WOULD have turned out. uhm, yeah, I get it. That game was very frustrating, but please stop this "what WOULD be if..." thing. This is the reason why everyone hates Bisu's fanboys 
Oh I get that bisu made the mistake on his own and its his own fault. I'm saying that the mistake was in a series which is different from individual play so you can't say they are even based on 3-3. Actually i'd say it tilts in JD favor... because series play is ultimately more important
edit: the mistake of Bisu's is his own mistake it just leaves doubt on the series. I would have much preferred he win or lose normally so we could have a clearer outcome because while I love bisu I also really really respect Jaedong
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i've been burning all night and all day with unsatisfied anticipation. my heart is turning, the tension is suffocating -
GOD, HEAL MY SOUL,
I NEED THE BISU/JAEDONG OSL FINALS
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Did you guys realize that before tonight, the last time Bisu lost two games in a row was to by.hero in the OSL? That's siiiick.
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On March 02 2009 05:39 Jayme wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2009 04:26 Sentenal wrote:On March 01 2009 23:53 DamageControL wrote:On March 01 2009 23:33 zhaoli86 wrote:
Bisu and Jaedong are tied 3-3 in the last 6 matches they had. So for now I say they are about even. No because that proleague and series play are two entirely different beasts. There aren't many players in the world better than Bisu at playing a series as opposed to individual games but JD is one of them. JD was better that series, I guess, I need to watch the games more. I understand one of them was just a giant fuck up. So that means that it could be that Bisu one two and JD won two and Bisu lost one, while we have no idea how that one WOULD have turned out. True. But let me put some Bisu-Biased spin on that. Neo Harmony, ZvP: 9-4 Andromeda, ZvP: 43-27 Destination, ZvP: 32-31 Medusa, ZvP: 30-33 Collosseum 2, ZvP: 13-16 Andromeda, ZvP: 43-27 Those are the maps that Jaedong and Bisu played each other on in the past few days. Notice, that half the maps seem balanced, and the other half are Z>P maps. Even in the face face of the maps favoring Jaedong so much, Bisu won 3 of them, and two of those wins were on the imbalanced maps. Jaedong did win the series, I won't take that away from him. Bisu fucked the last game up. But I think it is a huge tribute to Bisu to being able to go 3-3 vs Jaedong when the maps were against them like they were. Yes because maps really matter to S-class gamers at all. Perhaps you've missed Flash and his 7-1 against protoss on Medusa? Map imbalance applies to less than amazing players, the amazing ones find their ways around just about anything.
this guy hits the spot. i mean remember katrina and jaedong on it? whether it be against kal or some other toss (the game against stork in the osl was just sick, but stork shoulda won), to these high caliber players, it doesnt matter. they will find a way to dominate. savior didnt care that 99% of the maps favored terran in his osl run, he just proceeded to win and win and win...
that last game, how did bisu forget to hold his zealots TWICE?
if it was just once... u might be able to let that go but comon... such a rookie mistake and committing it twice? i know he is a great player but i just cannot give him the advantage over jaedong in a BoX. i like the last PL ranking, if your life was on the line vs darth vader, do u pick jaedong or bisu? for me, rape face jaedong takes it... not by much but barely..
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On March 01 2009 23:25 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2009 23:20 baubo wrote:On March 01 2009 22:43 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:On March 01 2009 22:35 raga4ka wrote:On March 01 2009 22:25 Zinbiel wrote:On March 01 2009 22:11 raga4ka wrote:On March 01 2009 21:14 VioleTAK wrote:On March 01 2009 21:10 Malinor wrote:
My logic is that Bisu and JDs performances have been comparably well this month. And then it comes down to this showmatch. And this is why I think the winner deserves the first spot.
I just don't see how that showmatch tips the scale who so clearly favores Bisu this month onto Jaedong's side... Well its not Jaedong making that huge blunder but Bisu . Games like this need to be taken in to account more , if you think that the games ended in a draw i don't , because Jaedong won the psychological warfare and thus the last game . Which means that Jaedong's nerves are stronger then Bisu in a series . Bisu fucked up and yes his superness should be somewhat lessened for this reason. However not so much that it makes up for Bisu's tournament win this month etc. The best argument that could be made for Jaedong topping Bisu in PR after tonight's game is game 2 imo. Because as jaedong played that game I am 95% certain no protoss in the world could touch him and that adds quite a bit to his aura of fearsomeness. I don't think that Jaedong's ZvP is invincible especially after that series . He needs to start dominating protoss like before for me to thing that his ZvP is invincible again . i'm actually worried that Stork might beat him in their upcoming series , i think JD is definitly the favourite , but not by a large margin . Stork's PvZ is not weak although some people make it sound that way . If Jaedong plays even a fraction of how well he played in that series, Stork is completely fucked I kind of disagree. I know Bisu was somewhat joking in his "grading" of Jaedong, but Jaedong's macro does suffer in comparison to his other areas. And with preparation(1 game per week format), it's quite possible for Stork to literally practice every single contingency, and stop any early game aggression. Once in the late game, Stork would have enough map control and minimize the weakest part of his PvZ, his lack of game sense. That said, Stork has to take the series 2-0 because there's no chance for him to win the third game. So when I say Stork has a chance, it's still a very slight one. Uhh, you're wrong on basically everything. You should know better than to give meaningless numbers assigned by Bisu any credit.
So Jaedong's macro is just as good as his micro!? Or that he's just as skilled at defending as he is at orchestrating attacks? Or are you saying Stork actually has a better chance in early game than in the late game?
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United States12398 Posts
Hahaha, people here make me laugh. Bisu wins several games against Jaedong, on Z>P maps, to give Bisu credit. Apparently some people need to learn read, or at least some reading comprehension. I didn't blame any of Bisu's loses on map imbalance. Bisu only lost on one of the Imba maps, and it was due to a failure mistake. This means he won on the other imba maps that were played. Bisu lost the series to Jaedong: Thats a plus for Jaedong. Bisu beat Jaedong twice on Z>P Maps: Thats a plus for Bisu.
Maps to matter to S-Class progamers. When Flash last played Bisu on Medusa, and Bisu showed the perfect counter to Flash's Medusa build, people cried imba about the map. When Jaedong was knocked out of the last MSL, people called Imba on Byzantium. Maps effect players especially at the high levels, so don't give me that crap.
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On March 02 2009 05:49 fanatacist wrote:
I agree with Steve, and disagree with a load of other people. I think Bisu is still the absolute best player in a BoX series. Game 5 was the worst mistake he has ever made in a televised match as far as I can recall, but it wasn't due to nerves. This man has been to the finals and won them enough times for nerves to be non-factor for either of them - both had -_- faces. Maybe -_-; at the end.
There is a reason Bisu has 4 golds and 1 silver in major leagues unlike Stork who has 6 silvers and 2 golds. Jaedong has 4* golds and 2 silvers, which is definitely comparable. He is also very good at BoX series, but Bisu's 4-1 gold-silver domination simply tells me of a mastery of an art. There have not been many other BoX matches that Bisu lost since his first gold medal. Jaedong however is famous for always finishing 1-3 or 3-1, which isn't that great in terms of consistency - he either rapes or gets raped. Today was the first day he was pushed beyond that, and game 5 (BISU'S MISTAKE, I ACKNOWLEDGE) left that as a question.
I think Bisu is the best player out there right now, and by extension the best player (in terms of overall skill) to have ever played the game. Jaedong is VERY close. So is Flash. But Bisu is definitely #1 this month. Jaedong is definitely #2. If Flash wasn't eliminated from both leagues, I'm sure he would be #3. That's how it is right now - it's like what used to be the place of a bonjwa is taken up by 3 people right now, sitting on top of a serfdom of other players. And Bisu's results and record since Jan 1st tell me that he is sitting just an inch higher than the other two.
EDIT: Fixed Jaedong's medal count, forgot about GOM Classic #1.
EDIT 2: Let's all pray for JD vs. Bisu OSL finals. I would love to see that more than anything, this time without any serious slips like probe sneaking by and seeing EVERYthing while Jaedong has 12+ lings, and Bisu's ramp block rofl.
nah ur right JD has only 3 golds, the wcg doesn`t really count. Also he has 1 silver, one is from ODT
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On March 02 2009 11:17 deathgodtoss wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2009 05:39 Jayme wrote:On March 02 2009 04:26 Sentenal wrote:On March 01 2009 23:53 DamageControL wrote:On March 01 2009 23:33 zhaoli86 wrote:
Bisu and Jaedong are tied 3-3 in the last 6 matches they had. So for now I say they are about even. No because that proleague and series play are two entirely different beasts. There aren't many players in the world better than Bisu at playing a series as opposed to individual games but JD is one of them. JD was better that series, I guess, I need to watch the games more. I understand one of them was just a giant fuck up. So that means that it could be that Bisu one two and JD won two and Bisu lost one, while we have no idea how that one WOULD have turned out. True. But let me put some Bisu-Biased spin on that. Neo Harmony, ZvP: 9-4 Andromeda, ZvP: 43-27 Destination, ZvP: 32-31 Medusa, ZvP: 30-33 Collosseum 2, ZvP: 13-16 Andromeda, ZvP: 43-27 Those are the maps that Jaedong and Bisu played each other on in the past few days. Notice, that half the maps seem balanced, and the other half are Z>P maps. Even in the face face of the maps favoring Jaedong so much, Bisu won 3 of them, and two of those wins were on the imbalanced maps. Jaedong did win the series, I won't take that away from him. Bisu fucked the last game up. But I think it is a huge tribute to Bisu to being able to go 3-3 vs Jaedong when the maps were against them like they were. Yes because maps really matter to S-class gamers at all. Perhaps you've missed Flash and his 7-1 against protoss on Medusa? Map imbalance applies to less than amazing players, the amazing ones find their ways around just about anything. this guy hits the spot. i mean remember katrina and jaedong on it? whether it be against kal or some other toss (the game against stork in the osl was just sick, but stork shoulda won), to these high caliber players, it doesnt matter. they will find a way to dominate. savior didnt care that 99% of the maps favored terran in his osl run, he just proceeded to win and win and win... that last game, how did bisu forget to hold his zealots TWICE? if it was just once... u might be able to let that go but comon... such a rookie mistake and committing it twice? i know he is a great player but i just cannot give him the advantage over jaedong in a BoX. i like the last PL ranking, if your life was on the line vs darth vader, do u pick jaedong or bisu? for me, rape face jaedong takes it... not by much but barely..
the game was already over.
neither ramp block had anything to do with lack of hold position. jaedong sniped the probe (andro requires more than 2 zealots to block the ramp) and walked in.
head to head is not the only thing that matters in determining who is #1 between jaedong and bisu. consider them both against flash.
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Like it matters, we already know the top three anyways. Although FS's logic on the ranking given a 3-0 rape by Jaedong (which didn't happen) is intriguing.
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Hungary11305 Posts
Seeing Stork's ranking will be fun. He made Ro8 in BOTH leagues and almost everyone agrees that he has been playing abysmally as of late.
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Bisus mistke did not show he was nervous or choked
It just showed that he is Confident
VERY confident ( rightfully so ! )
and this time overconfident which turned into a sloppy mistake...
So what ?
Seeing the last game of this 'special series' as a reason to put JD over Bisu is retarted and everyone who thinks so, is either a Jeadong fan, doesnt follow & understand the current pro gaming scene or is just a bit stupid..
Im interested about Flash.. Because even though he definitely HAS WHAT IT TAKES he somehow recently ...
but well just shows you: The pro gaming level is so freaking hard nowadays..
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I hate Flash and everything he has to deal with sometimes. His games yesterday showed that he is just as good as he ever has been, and I don't think I would bet on a single player beating him in a Bo5. (though a couple could be close). And yet, he's out of both leagues.
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Bisu's first place could be questioned only based on the GOM special matches, but he's 3-3 against JD recently, and showed much better performenece overall. I'm a Jaedong fan, and i think he's better than Bisu, however that doesnt mean i would place him 1st.
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On March 03 2009 00:14 Geo.Rion wrote:
Bisu's first place could be questioned only based on the GOM special matches, but he's 3-3 against JD recently, and showed much better performenece overall. I'm a Jaedong fan, and i think he's better than Bisu, however that doesnt mean i would place him 1st.
agreed 101%
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On March 02 2009 05:49 fanatacist wrote:
I agree with Steve, and disagree with a load of other people. I think Bisu is still the absolute best player in a BoX series. Game 5 was the worst mistake he has ever made in a televised match as far as I can recall, but it wasn't due to nerves. This man has been to the finals and won them enough times for nerves to be non-factor for either of them - both had -_- faces. Maybe -_-; at the end.
There is a reason Bisu has 4 golds and 1 silver in major leagues unlike Stork who has 6 silvers and 2 golds. Jaedong has 4* golds and 2 silvers, which is definitely comparable. He is also very good at BoX series, but Bisu's 4-1 gold-silver domination simply tells me of a mastery of an art. There have not been many other BoX matches that Bisu lost since his first gold medal. Jaedong however is famous for always finishing 1-3 or 3-1, which isn't that great in terms of consistency - he either rapes or gets raped. Today was the first day he was pushed beyond that, and game 5 (BISU'S MISTAKE, I ACKNOWLEDGE) left that as a question.
I think Bisu is the best player out there right now, and by extension the best player (in terms of overall skill) to have ever played the game. Jaedong is VERY close. So is Flash. But Bisu is definitely #1 this month. Jaedong is definitely #2. If Flash wasn't eliminated from both leagues, I'm sure he would be #3. That's how it is right now - it's like what used to be the place of a bonjwa is taken up by 3 people right now, sitting on top of a serfdom of other players. And Bisu's results and record since Jan 1st tell me that he is sitting just an inch higher than the other two.
EDIT: Fixed Jaedong's medal count, forgot about GOM Classic #1.
EDIT 2: Let's all pray for JD vs. Bisu OSL finals. I would love to see that more than anything, this time without any serious slips like probe sneaking by and seeing EVERYthing while Jaedong has 12+ lings, and Bisu's ramp block rofl.
Well i don't know if Bisu is the best Bo 5 player . Both with JD had blunders in the past , Bisu losing to Stork 0 - 3 in OSL semis Jaedong losing also 0 - 3 to ForGG so i don't ackowledge him as a better Bo 5 player then Jaedong especially after that ending  .
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On March 02 2009 05:49 fanatacist wrote:
I agree with Steve, and disagree with a load of other people. I think Bisu is still the absolute best player in a BoX series. Game 5 was the worst mistake he has ever made in a televised match as far as I can recall, but it wasn't due to nerves. This man has been to the finals and won them enough times for nerves to be non-factor for either of them - both had -_- faces. Maybe -_-; at the end.
There is a reason Bisu has 4 golds and 1 silver in major leagues unlike Stork who has 6 silvers and 2 golds. Jaedong has 4* golds and 2 silvers, which is definitely comparable. He is also very good at BoX series, but Bisu's 4-1 gold-silver domination simply tells me of a mastery of an art. There have not been many other BoX matches that Bisu lost since his first gold medal. Jaedong however is famous for always finishing 1-3 or 3-1, which isn't that great in terms of consistency - he either rapes or gets raped. Today was the first day he was pushed beyond that, and game 5 (BISU'S MISTAKE, I ACKNOWLEDGE) left that as a question.
I think Bisu is the best player out there right now, and by extension the best player (in terms of overall skill) to have ever played the game. Jaedong is VERY close. So is Flash. But Bisu is definitely #1 this month. Jaedong is definitely #2. If Flash wasn't eliminated from both leagues, I'm sure he would be #3. That's how it is right now - it's like what used to be the place of a bonjwa is taken up by 3 people right now, sitting on top of a serfdom of other players. And Bisu's results and record since Jan 1st tell me that he is sitting just an inch higher than the other two.
EDIT: Fixed Jaedong's medal count, forgot about GOM Classic #1.
EDIT 2: Let's all pray for JD vs. Bisu OSL finals. I would love to see that more than anything, this time without any serious slips like probe sneaking by and seeing EVERYthing while Jaedong has 12+ lings, and Bisu's ramp block rofl.
Please enlighten me about which Bo5:s have jaedong lost apart from the rock 1-3 and the forgg 0-3 debacle. About consistency, if I remember correctly jaedong was known as ridiculously consistent in his way of dropping the first game and then winning 3 in a row from the rock loss until he lost to forgg 0-3 and beat flash and much 3-0 last summer. Winning 3-1 is consistent and I doubt bisu has won all his bo5:s 3-0.
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@Jaeden: I don't hate you, I just dislike the way you sometimes try to justify everything JD does.
When it's 99,5% obvious that JD isn't #1 atm, you argue for him being #1 anyway, and if it's 100% obvious that he isn't #1 you start arguing that he is not #1, but still the gap is close 
But let's keep it peacy from now on...
@Zinbiel: You are aware of the fact that losing to Stork is s.th. different than losing to the Rock, aren't you?
general:
I think JD is at 2 golds and 1 silver in starleagues. WCG Korea isn't a SL and the first GSL wasn't even a Kespa tournament. A SC tournament without the big team is like swimming olympics without Michael Phelps...
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On March 03 2009 05:33 Polar_Bear wrote:@Jaeden: I don't hate you, I just dislike the way you sometimes try to justify everything JD does. When it's 99,5% obvious that JD isn't #1 atm, you argue for him being #1 anyway, and if it's 100% obvious that he isn't #1 you start arguing that he is not #1, but still the gap is close But let's keep it peacy from now on... @Zinbiel: You are aware of the fact that losing to Stork is s.th. different than losing to the Rock, aren't you? general: I think JD is at 2 golds and 1 silver in starleagues. WCG Korea isn't a SL and the first GSL wasn't even a Kespa tournament. A SC tournament without the big team is like swimming olympics without Michael Phelps...
haha, I still believe that JD should've been put at #1 spot in that PR (several months ago).
about this PR, no, Bisu is #1, and I`m not arguing at all with that. I was just trying to say that Bisu isn`t the best by far blablabla...in therms of the PR, yeah, he is clearly #1 this month...I was just saying it wrong maybe, I guess. And about the hate, nah, I dont hate anyone, it was just a joke
edit: look at what Geo said two or three posts above
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On March 02 2009 11:17 deathgodtoss wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2009 05:39 Jayme wrote:On March 02 2009 04:26 Sentenal wrote:On March 01 2009 23:53 DamageControL wrote:On March 01 2009 23:33 zhaoli86 wrote:
Bisu and Jaedong are tied 3-3 in the last 6 matches they had. So for now I say they are about even. No because that proleague and series play are two entirely different beasts. There aren't many players in the world better than Bisu at playing a series as opposed to individual games but JD is one of them. JD was better that series, I guess, I need to watch the games more. I understand one of them was just a giant fuck up. So that means that it could be that Bisu one two and JD won two and Bisu lost one, while we have no idea how that one WOULD have turned out. True. But let me put some Bisu-Biased spin on that. Neo Harmony, ZvP: 9-4 Andromeda, ZvP: 43-27 Destination, ZvP: 32-31 Medusa, ZvP: 30-33 Collosseum 2, ZvP: 13-16 Andromeda, ZvP: 43-27 Those are the maps that Jaedong and Bisu played each other on in the past few days. Notice, that half the maps seem balanced, and the other half are Z>P maps. Even in the face face of the maps favoring Jaedong so much, Bisu won 3 of them, and two of those wins were on the imbalanced maps. Jaedong did win the series, I won't take that away from him. Bisu fucked the last game up. But I think it is a huge tribute to Bisu to being able to go 3-3 vs Jaedong when the maps were against them like they were. Yes because maps really matter to S-class gamers at all. Perhaps you've missed Flash and his 7-1 against protoss on Medusa? Map imbalance applies to less than amazing players, the amazing ones find their ways around just about anything. this guy hits the spot. i mean remember katrina and jaedong on it? whether it be against kal or some other toss (the game against stork in the osl was just sick, but stork shoulda won), to these high caliber players, it doesnt matter. they will find a way to dominate. savior didnt care that 99% of the maps favored terran in his osl run, he just proceeded to win and win and win... No, because its S class vs S class the maps still matter. the maps could matter less to JD or Bisu against lesser players but against each other they are still a big deal.
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EPT
