EPTAnd what?
edit: I mean, I actually support Bisu for nr. 1 (for now), but I don't see why we should restrict ourselves only for GSL when talking about player ability to cope with imbalanced maps...
Power Rank 02/02/2009 - Page 13
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L0thar
987 Posts
And what? edit: I mean, I actually support Bisu for nr. 1 (for now), but I don't see why we should restrict ourselves only for GSL when talking about player ability to cope with imbalanced maps... | ||
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fanatacist
10319 Posts
On February 14 2009 10:58 Rostam wrote: The Bisu-Flash series was in the beginning of January, I don't see why you would factor that into a PR for February. Besides, it's not like you can look at that and go "Man, if those two played right now Bisu would rape the hell out of Flash!". It was their most recent encounter, and when considering them as equals for #1, the series was not SO far off to make it a weak reference. Did I ever say Bisu was a clear favorite? | ||
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fanatacist
10319 Posts
On February 14 2009 11:02 adelarge wrote: And what? edit: I mean, I actually support Bisu for nr. 1 (for now), but I don't see why we should restrict ourselves only for GSL when talking about player ability to cope with imbalanced maps... Because I was responding to his post about the GSL.. | ||
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L0thar
987 Posts
On February 14 2009 11:09 fanatacist wrote: Because I was responding to his post about the GSL.. And I was refering to this topic from greater perspective. I bet this isn't the first time somebody did it there, is it? I think PR should reflect this as well. And if we are comparing Flash with Bisu in that aspect (coping with map imbalance), Flash is definitely more impresive. | ||
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fanatacist
10319 Posts
On February 14 2009 11:17 adelarge wrote: And I was refering to this topic from greater perspective. I bet this isn't the first time somebody did it there, is it? I think PR should reflect this as well. And if we are comparing Flash with Bisu in that aspect (coping with map imbalance), Flash is definitely more impresive. Well then don't try to make it seem like you are countering a statement I am making... ABOUT THE GSL. Once again I never went into specifics either, I was asking if anyone knew anyone that did that (in the GSL). Also, Katrina is irrelevant to the current PR. By a long shot. | ||
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L0thar
987 Posts
On February 14 2009 11:22 fanatacist wrote: Well then don't try to make it seem like you are countering a statement I am making... ABOUT THE GSL. Once again I never went into specifics either, I was asking if anyone knew anyone that did that (in the GSL). Also, Katrina is irrelevant to the current PR. By a long shot. Then look at TvP on Medusa without Flash and Flash stats on that map. | ||
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Rostam
United States2552 Posts
On February 14 2009 11:08 fanatacist wrote: It was their most recent encounter, and when considering them as equals for #1, the series was not SO far off to make it a weak reference. Did I ever say Bisu was a clear favorite? Well if it doesn't indicate him as a clear favorite then I don't understand why we should really consider it. There's already ELO and KeSPA for statistical rankings, shouldn't PR be about who's playing best and not what the players' records against each other are? I would think their performances in leagues this month will be different enough that whoever makes the next PR wouldn't have to refer to an old series as any kind of tiebreaker. | ||
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raga4ka
Bulgaria5679 Posts
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baubo
China3370 Posts
On February 14 2009 10:25 adelarge wrote: Well, definitely not Bisu, seeing how he played like total ass on Tears of the Moon and then even had the guts to blame that map for his second loss on totaly different map... On the other hand, Flash and Katrina, that's totally diferent story... Tears of the Moon is 11-2 ZvP. That is, btw, worse than Mercury's 14-4 ZvP, or Monty Hall's 11-5 PvZ, to name some infamous maps. As for the two wins, I didn't watch Backho's game. But Kal's win was an unexpected one-base timing attack, which is unlikely to work in the future now that zergs know protoss can't FE on the map. So how is Bisu wrong? As for Bisu vs Flash in GOM, it was one protoss favored map(Medusa which Flash won), one terran favored map(sin-Chupuny-Ryeong which Flash lost because he fucked up his timing push) and one slightly protoss favored map(Destination where Bisu simply outplayed him). While GOM maps were protoss favored, you can't blame Flash's loss on it, especially since he WON on the map that was heavily favored against him. | ||
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Darth Peter
Romania438 Posts
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Sentenal
United States12398 Posts
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Zinbiel
Sweden878 Posts
On February 14 2009 18:46 Sentenal wrote: Flash has been playing good, but people have been acting like Bisu has started to drop off since the last rank? He 3-1ed Jangbi, he went 6-0 in the OSL tiebreakers, and is currently 2-0 in his OSL Group of Death (wins over both Stork and July). Flash/Bisu should be #1 and #2, I just don't know what order, but it isn't clear cut for either side. Flash finishing his series with Leta, both of their remaining OSL groups, and Bisu vs Jaedong will tell us alot about which one deserves #1 more. your sig should be "scan for carriers", they don't even have to scout! j/k | ||
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L0thar
987 Posts
On February 14 2009 18:02 baubo wrote: Tears of the Moon is 11-2 ZvP. That is, btw, worse than Mercury's 14-4 ZvP, or Monty Hall's 11-5 PvZ, to name some infamous maps. As for the two wins, I didn't watch Backho's game. But Kal's win was an unexpected one-base timing attack, which is unlikely to work in the future now that zergs know protoss can't FE on the map. So how is Bisu wrong? As for Bisu vs Flash in GOM, it was one protoss favored map(Medusa which Flash won), one terran favored map(sin-Chupuny-Ryeong which Flash lost because he fucked up his timing push) and one slightly protoss favored map(Destination where Bisu simply outplayed him). While GOM maps were protoss favored, you can't blame Flash's loss on it, especially since he WON on the map that was heavily favored against him. He asked how many players tried to find ways to deal with map imbalance. And I replied, that definitely not Bisu...not because he lost, but the way he did it. He tried to play totally standard, no deviation, no creativity, nothing. I've never questioned the ZvP imbalance of Tears... And how is he wrong?? The major problem I have here is his bitching that he lost the SECOND game because he was in shock. What the hell?? If he though Tears were such an imbalanced maps, why he didn't practice for the next two maps? How could he be thrown out of balance if he knew that Tears were so imba? It was BO3 and Tears were only the first map. I would expect more tactics and mental strenght from player of his caliber. I had a great respect for Bisu, but I lost a big amount of it after that interview. And Flash vs Bisu - don't try to compare the imbalance of Medusa with Sin-Chupung. Medusa is much worse than Sin-Chupung could ever be. It's more like you have one Protoss heaven (Medusa) and two reasonably imbalanced (if there even is such thing) maps (Sin and Destination). With Flash schedule it isn't impossible to imagine, that he trained more on Medusa (because that map is almost in every league) and hoped he could take the win on Sin-Chupung or Destination. It's very speculative...but wait, did I somewhere blame the Flash loss in GOM on maps?? | ||
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fanatacist
10319 Posts
On February 14 2009 11:58 Rostam wrote: Well if it doesn't indicate him as a clear favorite then I don't understand why we should really consider it. There's already ELO and KeSPA for statistical rankings, shouldn't PR be about who's playing best and not what the players' records against each other are? I would think their performances in leagues this month will be different enough that whoever makes the next PR wouldn't have to refer to an old series as any kind of tiebreaker. Because although their comparative skill vs. each other TODAY is arguable, their most recent encounter (which was relatively recent) places Bisu above Flash. Fact. This is the deciding factor, for TODAY, if we consider Bisu and Flash to be 50/50 in taking the #1 rank. I am not talking about making the decision now for the PR 2 weeks from now. I am saying that if the PR were made TODAY, Bisu should be #1 over Flash, if for no better reason than their most recent series (once again, assuming we value their achievements equally outside of this). On February 14 2009 18:19 Darth Peter wrote: Come on,stop arguing,there is still half month left. Flash can be fired from both leagues in a matter of days,while Bisu is 90% qualified in the OSL. At least give time for him to get his response at Flash's dominance. If Bisu can perform an all-kill,for which he has plenty of time this month,can beat JD in impressive fashion in Gom and Flash will be eliminated from at least one league,I don't see no reason why Bisu couldn't be no1. Of course,as things are standing right now,Flash is clearly the no1. But damn,there is still half of a month,and a player can fall 4 spots in the PR in one single day,so I don't see why debating who should be no1 this early. I personally value titles greater than WL domination. Why? The pressure increases exponentially from WL -> Individual leagues -> quarterfinals -> semifinals -> finals. The stakes are much higher. The selection of opponent (usually) is the cream of the crop in many stages of the tournament, if not the finals. The series involves mind games and other BoX factors. WL is limited in that department. Thus winning a league to me is more impressive than all-killing ACE (rofl) and some relative no-names. Not saying he didn't beat good players; he did. But it's not like those players had to go through an elimination tournament to face him, and neither did he (well, you can make an argument that WL is kind of similar to an elimination tournament, but once again the pressure is not nearly the same, even at 3-3 tie breaker). Of course, if either player can do both, they are the clear favorite. But fact is fact; Bisu won a league. Flash did not. Flash has a good WL record. Bisu's record is less impressive but still present, with a 75% winrate (as far as I recall). That makes my choice for #1, TODAY, obvious. Some people, like you, seem to value WL all-kills over tournament titles, and I would like to hear a case for that. In my opinion, that is just exaggerating the reality. I disagree whole-heartedly. But for the sake of the previous argument, I assumed the compromise that they are 50/50 right now. Like I said previously, things can change drastically in the next few weeks, but as for the here and now, Bisu is a step above Flash in getting #1. | ||
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fanatacist
10319 Posts
On February 15 2009 00:06 adelarge wrote: He asked how many players tried to find ways to deal with map imbalance. And I replied, that definitely not Bisu...not because he lost, but the way he did it. He tried to play totally standard, no deviation, no creativity, nothing. I've never questioned the ZvP imbalance of Tears... And how is he wrong?? The major problem I have here is his bitching that he lost the SECOND game because he was in shock. What the hell?? If he though Tears were such an imbalanced maps, why he didn't practice for the next two maps? How could he be thrown out of balance if he knew that Tears were so imba? It was BO3 and Tears were only the first map. I would expect more tactics and mental strenght from player of his caliber. I had a great respect for Bisu, but I lost a big amount of it after that interview. And Flash vs Bisu - don't try to compare the imbalance of Medusa with Sin-Chupung. Medusa is much worse than Sin-Chupung could ever be. It's more like you have one Protoss heaven (Medusa) and two reasonably imbalanced (if there even is such thing) maps (Sin and Destination). With Flash schedule it isn't impossible to imagine, that he trained more on Medusa (because that map is almost in every league) and hoped he could take the win on Sin-Chupung or Destination. It's very speculative...but wait, did I somewhere blame the Flash loss in GOM on maps?? You clearly underestimate the importance of mind games. Why do you think people cheese in the first game of a Bo5 like Stork/July did? It's to get a mental edge. Your mental state is just as important if not moreso than your tactics and strategy and mechanics in this game. The best PvZ getting raped so brutally on a new map - that is like a knife to the mind of anyone. If I beat you in a humiliating fashion at your reputedly best matchup (not as true for Bisu anymore, but it's not that bad either), would you feel confident in our next match? No. Similar concept applies. He explained his reason for not performing in the next match, due to very understandable reasons. Get over it. Sin Chupung Reyung PvT: 5-8 (38.5%) Medusa PvT: 35-14 (71.4%) Destination PvT: 28-22 (56%) If we go by pure statistics, the total % of the three maps combined divided by 300% SHOULD be the chance that a player of that race would beat an equal skill opponent of the opposing race. So... (38.5+71.4+56)/300 = 165.9/300 = .553 I'd say that is pretty balanced. | ||
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wswordsmen
United States987 Posts
On February 15 2009 01:46 fanatacist wrote: Sin Chupung Reyung PvT: 5-8 (38.5%) Medusa PvT: 35-14 (71.4%) Destination PvT: 28-22 (56%) If we go by pure statistics, the total % of the three maps combined divided by 300% SHOULD be the chance that a player of that race would beat an equal skill opponent of the opposing race. So... (38.5+71.4+56)/300 = 165.9/300 = .553 I'd say that is pretty balanced. Your not weighting it by number of games played (not that would have any direct result on the number you got, but it would change the conclusion considerably). The odds of protoss equalizing the stats (assuming equal players in each game) on Sin Chupung Reyung are 1/8 if it really is perfectly balanced, similarly terrans coming back on Destination is 1/64. However the odds of Medusa ever seeing balanced stats TvP is 1/2097152. So essentially we have 1 fairly balanced map, 1 nearly completely unknown map, and one that clearly has a protoss bias, yet you are counting the stats as equal anyway. Also due to sample size differences the terran bias of Sin Chupung ~ the protoss bias of destination. | ||
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SimonB
United States1088 Posts
On February 15 2009 01:46 fanatacist wrote: That's a pretty spurious argument. Do you honestly think Sin Chupung's 5-8 shows any kind of the imbalance that the records for the other two maps demonstrate? Hell, if you use just plain Chupung Ryeong (which is almost the same map except the area behind the natural isn't as big), you get a 19-10 record in favor of Protoss.Sin Chupung Reyung PvT: 5-8 (38.5%) Medusa PvT: 35-14 (71.4%) Destination PvT: 28-22 (56%) If we go by pure statistics, the total % of the three maps combined divided by 300% SHOULD be the chance that a player of that race would beat an equal skill opponent of the opposing race. So... (38.5+71.4+56)/300 = 165.9/300 = .553 I'd say that is pretty balanced. I'm not dismissing Bisu's win over Flash as nothing, but it was very very close, and the map balance was significantly on the Protoss side (and Flash fucked up and didn't notice two DTs until a few seconds too late which almost assuredly cost him the game on Destination). | ||
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Shikyo
Finland33997 Posts
Because GSL's map pool is clearly the most imbalanced one I've seen in a long time. EDIT: And I don't necessarily mean the later maps. But the map pool in the ro64 and ro32 and such that eliminated all the Zergs and nearly all the Terrans was horrendous. Please don't look at the final or semifinal map pool, that's not what I'm talking about. Tears of the moon is just to balance maps like, dare I say, BYZANTIUM? I don't know about people attempting to overcome imbalances... I don't know what you mean, really. Cheesing? If so, that's what many T's did vs P on Neo Requiem(worst map ever). | ||
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fanatacist
10319 Posts
On February 15 2009 05:57 wswordsmen wrote: Your not weighting it by number of games played (not that would have any direct result on the number you got, but it would change the conclusion considerably). The odds of protoss equalizing the stats (assuming equal players in each game) on Sin Chupung Reyung are 1/8 if it really is perfectly balanced, similarly terrans coming back on Destination is 1/64. However the odds of Medusa ever seeing balanced stats TvP is 1/2097152. So essentially we have 1 fairly balanced map, 1 nearly completely unknown map, and one that clearly has a protoss bias, yet you are counting the stats as equal anyway. Also due to sample size differences the terran bias of Sin Chupung ~ the protoss bias of destination. Not really sure where you are getting these numbers from (I trust you, tentatively), but 1/8th isn't that big, and even if it were to equalize it'd just signify a change in gameflow on the map, much like how new strategies affect the development of any map (PvT on Katrina, PvZ on Destination, etc. etc.). At the time of their games, Chupung was considered a Terran-favored map. Medusa was considered a Protoss-favored map. End of story. Of course my method isn't definitive, but it's not my fault that the amount of games played is less on one map than on another. I could make a confidence interval which would make my conclusion even more statistically sound, but that is too much work. Instead I will do this: Sum of P wins on maps / Number of games on maps 68 / 112 = .607 Now, this would be a more accurate statistic I guess, and still not drastically imbalanced. However, Flash won on Medusa... So if the other two maps are "unknown" and balanced in your opinion, how could Flash lose? Clearly imbalance isn't everything. | ||
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fanatacist
10319 Posts
On February 15 2009 07:00 SimonB wrote: That's a pretty spurious argument. Do you honestly think Sin Chupung's 5-8 shows any kind of the imbalance that the records for the other two maps demonstrate? Hell, if you use just plain Chupung Ryeong (which is almost the same map except the area behind the natural isn't as big), you get a 19-10 record in favor of Protoss. I'm not dismissing Bisu's win over Flash as nothing, but it was very very close, and the map balance was significantly on the Protoss side (and Flash fucked up and didn't notice two DTs until a few seconds too late which almost assuredly cost him the game on Destination). Addressed above. Look at the last few lines for the response to the second part of your post. | ||
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