Power Rank 12/14/2008 - Page 9

On December 15 2008 12:53 QibingZero wrote:


See this is my problem with a lot of the posts in response. I actually made a post with a couple criticisms on the actual PR for what I think seemed to be not taking into consideration performance over results, but you guys are going the opposite way. The Jaedong - Sea game was absolutely amazing on both sides. I don't see how you can say that game took anything away from either player, let alone act as if beating Jaedong in a game like that is no big deal (what, because Jaedong lost a bo3 to a protoss on ridiculous maps?). The same thing can be said for the games Jaedong lost to FBH (first one) and free.

And all this talk about Sea not being as impressive as the other names mentioned (yet few are saying anything about FBH, who didn't qualify for the OSL, being at 6) is ridiculous. The one time there's decent justification for Sea being on the PR, everyone complains (and he's at #10 ffs!) Go figure

On December 15 2008 20:59 Plexa wrote:
Not quite true. Yes Sea played two amazing games, thats a fact. However the fact that they were so close is indicative of the skill level being relatively close. What we see here is Iris (a player no where near the CBNC list) pulling off a really really close game against sea. That means they are on comparable skill level in TvT - not that Sea is a god of all things (if that were the case he would have raped him in under 20mins). Same argument can be applied to the Jaedong game, however, Sea's control was really lacking throughout, and it was really his glaring mistakes which allowed Jaedong to stay in the game for so long and turn it into an amazing game. Once again, great game - but not something to take as "SEAS TVZ IS NO1".

The thing is, close games happen all the time at all possible skill levels. Two amazing and close games by Sea cannot demonstrate effectively that Sea is PR material. Pusan is but one player who has far exceeded Sea for this month, and i choose him as an example because i know the most about his recent games. Pusan won a very close game with Stork on Colo (this was just as Stork started to lose games, so he was still pretty much the guy to beat). This means that Pusan's PvP is pretty much PR #2 level - that's saying something (he also beat kal so w/e ). He smashed through a number of mediocre terrans relatively easily and his pvt is showing no fault from the prelims. However his PvZ is kinda lacking atm, i'll you that, and he played a close game against Kwanro on colo - given that Pusan had to comeback and win - its safe to say that pusan's pvz is much better than kwanro's zvp, but still not at a level near Kal etc (well there is no evidence to suggest that). To top that off, losing in the finals against two up and coming zergs (by.hero and maGma) doesn't really bode well for an argument for strong PvZ. With that said, he has still performed better than Sea in proleauge and is fully justified to be placed ahead of him. I'm not saying that Pusan should be #10 (he should be cbnc because of his pvz), but Sea should be ranked lower than him.

On December 15 2008 21:38 raga4ka wrote:


If Pusan qualified for at least 1 league i would agree that he deserves PR more then Sea .

Then again i don't think that Sea and FBH should be here from what i've seen they are not the second best terrans after Flash .

Imo Leta has been fucking killing everyone in PL like Flash and he is in both leagues so far . And i've watched Mind's games this month and they are by far the most intelligent and impressive out of all terrans . And he actually wins TvP's like Flash does ....



Edit : + Show Spoiler +

On December 15 2008 20:59 Plexa wrote:
Same argument can be applied to the Jaedong game, however, Sea's control was really lacking throughout, and it was really his glaring mistakes which allowed Jaedong to stay in the game for so long and turn it into an amazing game. Once again, great game - but not something to take as "SEAS TVZ IS NO1".

On December 15 2008 22:18 baubo wrote:


The problem with Leta is that he almost a pure proleague player. Starleague is a different animal from proleague because of how you prepare for it. And Leta's only played 6 starleague games so far.

As for Mind, today's game doesn't exactly count. Otherwise I think he's as good choice as any.

Given past record and overall experience, I think FBH is the second best terran out there. He may not be worth #6, but should be higher than others.

On December 15 2008 22:45 Geo.Rion wrote:



Glaring mistakes? I didnt see those. Sea vs jaedong was the best TvZ i've seen in a long time. Against FBH JD didnt play this well, he committed some really ugly mistakes in game 1, and in the second he reacted poorly to the bunker rush. BUt the game against Sea JD played briliantly, with a good build, awesome defiler control. Sea's multitasking was amazing, his macro was the factor what kept him in the game. And not only he beat Iris in a close game. Iris didnt played poorly. Sea's macro and multitasking was good. He stumped Hwasin too on the same map days later. AND HE'S IN BOTH LEAUGES! Pusan isnt. he failed both offliners. Loosing in one of them that's ok, in both, that's poor. Sea will met Leta soon so then the discussion will end.

Here many ppl were saying Flash for 1st/2nd spot, he would beat Stork or Bisu if they meet. I said, let's wait for the game, it will happen. Well it happened, he lost to Stork, and he will have to face Bisu too. So wait tilt Sea meets some of his "rivals".

On December 15 2008 22:59 Fwmeh wrote:


A short note about Sea vs Jaedong. Look at the vessels. See how he floats his vessels right into waiting scourge. Watch that first push against 3 o clock. Tell me with a straight face Sea didn't make any mistakes.

He is however in both leagues, and is playing overall quite well. I still think Leta would have been a better 10.

On December 15 2008 22:56 raga4ka wrote:


FBH isn't as solid in all 3 MUs as Mind and Leta are . Mind is the only terran besides Flash that i give a good chance about 40 % vs JangBI and Stork and ~ 50% - 60 % of winning chance against Best , Bisu , Kal and Free if the maps played are with decent balance that is . Most of the other terrans can't even make them sweat . I mean FBH losing to Bisu 3 - 0 in a painful series to watch and Bisu's PvT isn't even that great compared to Stork's/JangBi's and the others . FBH should have at least if not taken a game then made them more good or entertaining to watch back then , instead of a one - sided rapes .

On December 16 2008 00:30 baubo wrote:


Two points.

1. A lot of this is speculation, since we DON'T know how Mind and Leta would fair against the likes of Bisu or Stork. But Leta losing to Best implies that he's not quite there yet. Besides, Leta has NOT played enough games to say anything besides having good TvT.

2. It's gotten to the point where FBH's infamous TvP is completely outshadowing the fact that he's one of the best, if not the very best, TvTer and TvZer around.

On December 15 2008 23:43 Geo.Rion wrote:


i don't say he played absolutely perfect. About the vessels. That was more JD's briliance to snipe them so efficiently. jaedong's sniping skills are the best i ever seen, taking about shuttles, vessels, HTs, whatever he's so good in taking out the key units. However Sea could keep up his vessel count, he usually had enough vessels on the field to irradiate the defilers and some ultras. his mistakes werent critical, he defended the counters, macroed like hell, attacked multiple locations, dropped like hell, he was everywhere, you can't take that win away from him. You cant even say JD s slumping. He played very well against Sea.

On December 15 2008 22:56 raga4ka wrote:


FBH isn't as solid in all 3 MUs as Mind and Leta are . Mind is the only terran besides Flash that i give a good chance about 40 % vs JangBI and Stork and ~ 50% - 60 % of winning chance against Best , Bisu , Kal and Free if the maps played are with decent balance that is . Most of the other terrans can't even make them sweat . I mean FBH losing to Bisu 3 - 0 in a painful series to watch and Bisu's PvT isn't even that great compared to Stork's/JangBi's and the others . FBH should have at least if not taken a game then made them more good or entertaining to watch back then , instead of a one - sided rapes .

On December 16 2008 01:12 Shikyo wrote:

I'd say maGma has the best scourge, refer to maGma vs Hwasin is you disagree.



Last 10 (old -> recent): W L W W W L L L W W

What's up with people dissing FBH's TvP so much? Sure, it's not Flash's or Mind's level, but 6-4 in last 10 isn't exactly bad, especially since 3 of those losses was to Bisu on fire. He beat Kal in a long macro game on a protoss map as well. People are seriously underestimating FBH's TvP, and his TvZ and TvT are extremely good.

On December 16 2008 01:02 raga4ka wrote:


Almost all A and S - class terrans have one of the best TvT and TvZs . I agree that FBH is pretty good in TvT but so are tons of terrans - Sea , Iris , Flash , Mind , Fantasy , Leta , even ForGG and other players are showing strong TvT .
And yes FBH has good TvZ , but i meen he played 1 decent game vs Jaedong then lost to Saint then bunker rushed Jaedong in the next game , and after that he lost to Hojja in offlines Bo 3 . Again there are tons of players that boost great TvZ but are showing equal or better results then him in PL and some of them are in more leagues so far and their TvP's are more solid then his . Aside from FBH's seed in MSL and that he is doing good in PL ( Like tons of other terrans are ) . He isn't playing in Gom lost to Bogus of all people , and now he lost to some newby in OSL offlines . People who have great TvZ and TvT's don't lose twise to random newbys especially in Bo 3 series .

On December 16 2008 01:12 Shikyo wrote:

I'd say maGma has the best scourge, refer to maGma vs Hwasin is you disagree.



Last 10 (old -> recent): W L W W W L L L W W

What's up with people dissing FBH's TvP so much? Sure, it's not Flash's or Mind's level, but 6-4 in last 10 isn't exactly bad, especially since 3 of those losses was to Bisu on fire. He beat Kal in a long macro game on a protoss map as well. People are seriously underestimating FBH's TvP, and his TvZ and TvT are extremely good.

On December 16 2008 01:02 raga4ka wrote:


Almost all A and S - class terrans have one of the best TvT and TvZs . I agree that FBH is pretty good in TvT but so are tons of terrans - Sea , Iris , Flash , Mind , Fantasy , Leta , even ForGG and other players are showing strong TvT .
And yes FBH has good TvZ , but i meen he played 1 decent game vs Jaedong then lost to Saint then bunker rushed Jaedong in the next game , and after that he lost to Hojja in offlines Bo 3 . Again there are tons of players that boost great TvZ but are showing equal or better results then him in PL and some of them are in more leagues so far and their TvP's are more solid then his . Aside from FBH's seed in MSL and that he is doing good in PL ( Like tons of other terrans are ) . He isn't playing in Gom lost to Bogus of all people , and now he lost to some newby in OSL offlines . People who have great TvZ and TvT's don't lose twise to random newbys especially in Bo 3 series .

On December 16 2008 03:16 AnOth3rDAy wrote:
FBH's games vs bogus was kinda meh... doesnt take away any of his TvT skill.

On December 14 2008 20:42 Geo.Rion wrote:



you use the offliners against Best, but you dont mention Pusan failed both MSL and OSL prelims. Try to be rational. Best has to be above JD, Pusan has nothing to do with PR nor Mind, Magma and Up might reach CBNC, but even that might be too early. FBH being too high, that might be, replacing with Leta, no.

Startin your post with "Lool" doesnt help either, it makes you look like a 13 yeras old child.

On December 16 2008 04:45 Phradamon wrote:


Really? Did you see UpMagic qualifing from Survivor? No? Than watch it, than post...Can someone compare apples with apples and pineapples with pineapples for one second?

On December 16 2008 03:16 baubo wrote:


First of all, offline prelim is the worst method to judge a person's MU, because of the nature of the tourny.

And it's somewhat appalling to see such a long list of players you used to compare to FBH's TvT. The only person on par with him in this MU is Flash.