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United States10774 Posts
lol i am sad my power rank didnt reach 1000 comments, so close
although i know you love sea, you are giving him too much credit for his games against Jaedong and Iris. beating jaedong, which plenty of other players have done lately, is not enough to give him that #10 spot imo. sure, it was a nice game, but there are other more deserving players, such as leta, pusan, and yarnc. the game verses iris was a joke because he had it won much earlier and decided to drag it on. you can call it a good game if you but that should not give him the edge over those three players i listed, who have been ripping apart Proleague for a while now.
you watched kal's games against midas, go.go, pure, tosky, and etc? yes, i know they are not S-class gamers, but it's better than jaedong losing left and right to everyone he runs into. (bo3 loss against templest lol)
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On December 15 2008 09:12 Aesop wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2008 09:04 Dazed_Spy wrote:Creating flame bait, which will inevitably lead to me, the PR writer, coming off as a condescending arrogant asshole, throwing around threats of banning etc- well, thats not conducive to a healthy website. So I would not even attempt to do that.  It is not simply flame-bait. It is rather voicing a reasonable opinion in a way that creates discussion and keeps it alive. As you saw, your Powerrank would be similar. But nobody would want to discuss it throughout almost 1000 comments. Why is that so? I did not actually give an explanation for it, though I easily can, as anyone can. The Power rank does not have conversations because FS, one other, or DJ etter, ever threw in a controversial statement in the actual descriptions. Yes, they did do this, but the power rank did not go on for a month and half conversation debating about one particular sentence or line. The arguments were over the positioning, and the potential positioning for the next month. Conversations ran long when there was much to converse, or when the PR was extraordinarily late.
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I don't see why people are complaining so much about Sea being 10. It's extremely obvious that FakeSteve is insanely biased toward Sea, makes no apologies for it, and then makes his list. It's a phase. It'll pass. Kind of like a player being number 1 one month then off the list the next.
Like most people (assuming I'm like most people) I'd like to see more Zerg on the list. But when one of your best hopes for that is Yarnc....I'm not going to be too hopeful. But I do think Calm might be one to watch if he can match his Proleague success with some individual league wins.
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Braavos36379 Posts
On December 15 2008 04:12 Krigstar wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2008 04:30 Hot_Bid wrote:On December 14 2008 04:27 Dazed_Spy wrote:On December 14 2008 03:59 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:On December 14 2008 03:37 Dazed_Spy wrote:
It kind of goes without saying that Leta deserves the PR more than Sea.
Really, that just pissed me off. And yeah, FBH is way too fuckin high.
Edit: Isn't this a power rank for last month? Sea's justification were games from this month. Last month he played like a scrub, this month hes given good games. what the hell would be the point of not including games up until the PR is released? So we could have an inaccurate ranking because i pretend not to know what happened between december first and now? that's the dumbest thing I've ever heard, Or maybe you could try not releasing PR half way through the fucking month every damn time? Steve's right about your idea being stupid, he has to take into consideration all the games up to that point. It's the best solution for a PR that doesn't come on the first of the month. Also, there's a respectful way to say "hey lets release it on time please!" instead of yelling it like some unappreciative douche. Consider this a warning. loooooool First of all, ITS A PERSONAL TOP 10 LIST! Nothing else! Secondly, the rank has been late like every month in 2008. Originally this was a monthly rank so I think it's a very valid question to ask. Warning wtf :D
i said its OK to criticize that its late and advocate it be done on time, just not in the assholish way he did it. thats what he was warned about, his insulting tone, not the actual complaint of timeliness. in fact, i'm the first person that will complain about the rank never being on time.
try to read what i say before you type your looools and wtfs. the warning was 100% justified, Dazed_Spy was acting like an asshole.
Some of you take yourselves and this list waaaaaay seriously. It's difficult not to make fun of you, specially when Fakesteve actually thinks he has authority for getting his top ten list published for the public. Loosen up a bit.
i don't understand where we take ourselves too seriously when nowhere have we said its an official rank or that FS is the leading authority on player strength the past month. its just a rank by someone who watches the games and is thoughtful about the results. its a fun feature that is meant to generate discussion.
the fact that you perceive it to be some arrogant thing shows that YOU take it too seriously and are somehow personally offended when FS writes a rank and feels his opinion is more justified than yours because of the evidence. don't be offended if you think it should be different. plenty of people think it should be different. just come to the thread to discuss, not to flame or make personal attacks. you read WAY too much into his tone and intentions, its just to inject personality and flavor into the writing. do you want him to write like a robot? why not just post top 10 kespa without any reasons then? whats the point in that?
Also Steve, if you are going to continue to analyze games and pretend to be good at it at least tell us your ICCup rank rather than your amount of watched games so we can see if there is anything to back up your arrogance when discussing with those who don't agree with you. A ground course in methodology wouldn't hurt either.
I don't see why ICCup rank is relevant in this situation. We can see one player playing better or worse than another without being a pro. Again, you read way too much into FS intentions and ego from his writing and are taking the PR way too seriously. Relax.
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Braavos36379 Posts
On December 15 2008 03:12 Krigstar wrote:Wow... Sea raping an under performing Jaedong on the worst ZvT map today and making a game vs Iris who just sucks, last way longer than it should. And you honestly use those games as an example to show Seas skill. Havent you proved already that your analysis of Sea's potential and performance always are as wrong as it could possibly be? And to top it all off you have the arrogance of telling people they don't know what they are talking when you have made hundreds of identical statements of Seas performance in 90 % of your Power Ranks and ALWAYS been proven wrong, and at the same time made fun of those who questioned you. I don't mind you being a fan and it showing off in the Power Rank, but to act like you actually are credible when it comes to analyzing Sea is ridiculous. So please, when people say they don't understand Seas position on the rank, DO NOT claim they don't know as much as you about pro-level starcraft. I mean, you have clearly dismissed records in the past when it hurts your favorite player or favors the player you hate, but not even you can ignore your record on times you've been wrong about Sea. I didnt think i would miss oneother this much 
while i agree Steve has been biased in the past about Sea, i think Sea's placement on this month's ranking is actually justified.
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Braavos36379 Posts
On December 15 2008 04:52 Dazed_Spy wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2008 04:28 brjdrb wrote:On December 15 2008 04:12 Krigstar wrote:On December 14 2008 04:30 Hot_Bid wrote:On December 14 2008 04:27 Dazed_Spy wrote:On December 14 2008 03:59 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:On December 14 2008 03:37 Dazed_Spy wrote:
It kind of goes without saying that Leta deserves the PR more than Sea.
Really, that just pissed me off. And yeah, FBH is way too fuckin high.
Edit: Isn't this a power rank for last month? Sea's justification were games from this month. Last month he played like a scrub, this month hes given good games. what the hell would be the point of not including games up until the PR is released? So we could have an inaccurate ranking because i pretend not to know what happened between december first and now? that's the dumbest thing I've ever heard, Or maybe you could try not releasing PR half way through the fucking month every damn time? Steve's right about your idea being stupid, he has to take into consideration all the games up to that point. It's the best solution for a PR that doesn't come on the first of the month. Also, there's a respectful way to say "hey lets release it on time please!" instead of yelling it like some unappreciative douche. Consider this a warning. loooooool First of all, ITS A PERSONAL TOP 10 LIST! Nothing else! Secondly, the rank has been late like every month in 2008. Originally this was a monthly rank so I think it's a very valid question to ask. Warning wtf :D Some of you take yourselves and this list waaaaaay seriously. It's difficult not to make fun of you, specially when Fakesteve actually thinks he has authority for getting his top ten list published for the public. Loosen up a bit. Also Steve, if you are going to continue to analyze games and pretend to be good at it at least tell us your ICCup rank rather than your amount of watched games so we can see if there is anything to back up your arrogance when discussing with those who don't agree with you. A ground course in methodology wouldn't hurt either. instead, be thankful that someone more informed than you is giving u a rough idea of who's playing well in starcraft Isnt that the question? To which level he is informed? To which level he is biased? And why would we be thankful? There are many, many people on this site, fully willing and capable of doing the PR- on a timely basis. No one begged and pleaded for FS to do the PR rank, it is simply a feature of the site. Criticism is utterly valid. Groveling is not.
your criticism's content might be valid, but the method is definitely not. take a look at your post history and how other people voice valid criticisms. you insult others and act like an asshole. nobody is saying you have to profusely thank and grovel simply because a feature is written by a volunteer. i agree brjdrb's expectations are a bit over the top.
but we have standards of user interaction on this site and if you don't abide by them, we ban you. thus my advice to you is be more respectful of your fellow posters and staff and you won't have a problem.
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On December 15 2008 10:55 Hot_Bid wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2008 03:12 Krigstar wrote:Wow... Sea raping an under performing Jaedong on the worst ZvT map today and making a game vs Iris who just sucks, last way longer than it should. And you honestly use those games as an example to show Seas skill. Havent you proved already that your analysis of Sea's potential and performance always are as wrong as it could possibly be? And to top it all off you have the arrogance of telling people they don't know what they are talking when you have made hundreds of identical statements of Seas performance in 90 % of your Power Ranks and ALWAYS been proven wrong, and at the same time made fun of those who questioned you. I don't mind you being a fan and it showing off in the Power Rank, but to act like you actually are credible when it comes to analyzing Sea is ridiculous. So please, when people say they don't understand Seas position on the rank, DO NOT claim they don't know as much as you about pro-level starcraft. I mean, you have clearly dismissed records in the past when it hurts your favorite player or favors the player you hate, but not even you can ignore your record on times you've been wrong about Sea. I didnt think i would miss oneother this much while i agree Steve has been biased in the past about Sea, i think Sea's placement on this month's ranking is actually justified. I agree that Sea has played well lately. I admit I don't watch all of his games- but Jaedong/Iris I did watch, and he played well. However, I watched a few of his games before that [one against Saint, I think...some zerg on Chupung Ryeong], and he was substandard. Essentially Sea is at number ten for playing a few *good* PL games, while also playing a few mediocre ones. That is fine in and of itself, but not when you take note of Sea's history. Sea is a consistent under performer.
He does terrible in individual leagues, and has had a declining tvp/tvt for a while now. Though they are still very strong. It just seems that, if you are going to give a spot to someone over another who is playing at a comparable quality, consistency is definitely something that should be looked at. Take UpMagic, Boxer, Ra, or Lucifer for example. Players that thrive on creativity. Some times they have streaks of consistency, but, its entirely possible for these players to be inconsistent, and very often throughout their career they were. It is not, I think, acceptable to put any of them on the PR for a few good, or really good games, knowing full well that their play style may mean they drop the next five games in a scrub like fashion.
Sea's style is not the thing that makes him a under performer, but he does under perform.
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Braavos36379 Posts
tbh leta fantasy sea and fbh are all pretty interchangeable, and if you factor in the map imbalances int he recent individual leagues you could make a case for a different player at all the positions under Flash at #3
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On December 15 2008 09:22 OneOther wrote:
lol i am sad my power rank didnt reach 1000 comments, so close
although i know you love sea, you are giving him too much credit for his games against Jaedong and Iris. beating jaedong, which plenty of other players have done lately, is not enough to give him that #10 spot imo. sure, it was a nice game, but there are other more deserving players, such as leta, pusan, and yarnc. the game verses iris was a joke because he had it won much earlier and decided to drag it on. you can call it a good game if you but that should not give him the edge over those three players i listed, who have been ripping apart Proleague for a while now.
you watched kal's games against midas, go.go, pure, tosky, and etc? yes, i know they are not S-class gamers, but it's better than jaedong losing left and right to everyone he runs into. (bo3 loss against templest lol)
See this is my problem with a lot of the posts in response. I actually made a post with a couple criticisms on the actual PR for what I think seemed to be not taking into consideration performance over results, but you guys are going the opposite way. The Jaedong - Sea game was absolutely amazing on both sides. I don't see how you can say that game took anything away from either player, let alone act as if beating Jaedong in a game like that is no big deal (what, because Jaedong lost a bo3 to a protoss on ridiculous maps?). The same thing can be said for the games Jaedong lost to FBH (first one) and free.
And all this talk about Sea not being as impressive as the other names mentioned (yet few are saying anything about FBH, who didn't qualify for the OSL, being at 6) is ridiculous. The one time there's decent justification for Sea being on the PR, everyone complains (and he's at #10 ffs!) Go figure.
On December 15 2008 11:32 Hot_Bid wrote:
tbh leta fantasy sea and fbh are all pretty interchangeable, and if you factor in the map imbalances int he recent individual leagues you could make a case for a different player at all the positions under Flash at #3
Yep, that about sums it up.
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I love you and your Power Rank, Crotch Master.
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On December 15 2008 09:04 Dazed_Spy wrote:
1. Bisu
2. Stork
3. Flash
4. Jangbi
5. Free
6. Best
7. FBH
8. Jaedong
9. Kal
10. Leta
CBNC
pusan, sea, yarnc, calm
This is pointless, anyone can list a bunch of players with no commentary whatsoever.
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Braavos36379 Posts
Dazed_Spy, i'd like to see your justification for putting FBH above Kal but below Best, and why Jaedong is above Kal and Leta
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On December 15 2008 13:47 Hot_Bid wrote:
Dazed_Spy, i'd like to see your justification for putting FBH above Kal but below Best, and why Jaedong is above Kal and Leta A degree of favouring has to be given to players who were dominate previously. Stork would not be very high on the PR if this was not done, because his games this month didn't show much. But he played really well the month before that, and throughout his career. So you give him some degree of leeway. That is why Jaedong has the position he does. He was a consistent, top tier player, and while he has played like complete ass this month, has every capability to pull that out again. To drop him from 4, right off the PR, even after being on it for a year, is a bad precedent to set. Any time an established player had a bump in the road, they would be set packing, and who would replace them?
That same justification for consistency is why I placed Kal, Leta, and FBH where I did. Kal has shown some really good ace games lately, but hes also shown some really mediocre PL games all over the board. He has shown unimpressive PVP, right after and right before showing good pvp. Until he elevates his play and manages to get a degree of consistency, of course hes going to be low in the rankings. Leta, while showing to be an incredibly skilled terran, all around, has not gone anywhere in the leauges, and is only just now coming into his own. I see it as premature to give him any higher of a spot. Just as it is premature to put Magma on the CBNC as some suggest. Though thats a rather extreme example.
FBH and Best have been consistently top tier players for a very long time now. Both of them have weak match ups. However both of them have shown some- some- progress in this match up. FBH is very hot in his tvz and his tvt. It would be an insult to his play to deny him a respectable spot on the PR. Best on the other hand, while he may not be unbeatable in his pvp, and even missed out on MSL, has shown us nothing to think that he isnt still in top form in that match up. Missing out on a league is bad, but its done frequently. Hes gone far in GOM, and his pvt is extremely strong.
Note: I hate Jaedong, I HATE FBH, I dislike Best, and I love Leta.On December 15 2008 13:25 Pooshlmer wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2008 09:04 Dazed_Spy wrote:
1. Bisu
2. Stork
3. Flash
4. Jangbi
5. Free
6. Best
7. FBH
8. Jaedong
9. Kal
10. Leta
CBNC
pusan, sea, yarnc, calm This is pointless, anyone can list a bunch of players with no commentary whatsoever. You really need to go about reading threads you post in man.
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Braavos36379 Posts
On December 15 2008 14:07 Dazed_Spy wrote:
A degree of favouring has to be given to players who were dominate previously. Stork would not be very high on the PR if this was not done, because his games this month didn't show much. But he played really well the month before that, and throughout his career. So you give him some degree of leeway. That is why Jaedong has the position he does. He was a consistent, top tier player, and while he has played like complete ass this month, has every capability to pull that out again. To drop him from 4, right off the PR, even after being on it for a year, is a bad precedent to set. Any time an established player had a bump in the road, they would be set packing, and who would replace them?
Power Rank is supposed to be an accurate predictor of a players ability right now. It's supposed to, in some way, paint an accurate picture of who the top 10 players are. A valid justification for Jaedong being at #8 is that he lost but the games were close, he showed sparks his old skill, etc. Your justification though is that "he played like a complete ass" but "has the capability". That's simply not true. He did play decently well for 1/2 a game or even 2/3rds a game, but often made bad decisions at critical moments. This is what cost him in many games, not "playing like a complete ass."
Your precedent argument is even more flawed because if you look at previous power ranks, players have dropped from as high as #2 to off the rank. So I don't know where you are getting "4 to off" is some sort of horrible precedent, because 4-5-6 to off the rank has happened many times before.
That same justification for consistency is why I placed Kal, Leta, and FBH where I did. Kal has shown some really good ace games lately, but hes also shown some really mediocre PL games all over the board. He has shown unimpressive PVP, right after and right before showing good pvp. Until he elevates his play and manages to get a degree of consistency, of course hes going to be low in the rankings.
This doesn't explain specifically why Kal is a) below Jaedong and b) below FBH. You just said some vague statements.
Leta, while showing to be an incredibly skilled terran, all around, has not gone anywhere in the leauges, and is only just now coming into his own. I see it as premature to give him any higher of a spot. Just as it is premature to put Magma on the CBNC as some suggest. Though thats a rather extreme example.
More vague statements, no actual analysis of why you put him where you put him relative to the players above him and the players below him (on CBNC).
FBH and Best have been consistently top tier players for a very long time now. Both of them have weak match ups.
Completely disagree. Have you seen FBH's individual league performance before this last set of individual leagues? He is not even close to "consistently top tier". Best is a better argument but he's also recently become good, but wasn't consistent in ZvP.
However both of them have shown some- some- progress in this match up. FBH is very hot in his tvz and his tvt. It would be an insult to his play to deny him a respectable spot on the PR.
Again, a very general statement that anyone could make and that justifies nothing. Where's the analysis? Why is FBH specifically above the players you put him above? It's only 3 leagues and a handful of games to compare.
Best on the other hand, while he may not be unbeatable in his pvp, and even missed out on MSL, has shown us nothing to think that he isnt still in top form in that match up. Missing out on a league is bad, but its done frequently. Hes gone far in GOM, and his pvt is extremely strong.
This is a general summary of Best's condition that I could pull out of three R&S threads in 15 minutes. Again, why is he at the position he's at? Where's the actual analysis?
You claim you can "easily" give an explanation and justification for your picks, yet all I see is a vague list with no real analysis besides generic statements that anyone loosely following progaming can make. Please, go in depth with detailed comparisons about why each player is at each rank.
The guy who said "you just can't post a rank and give no explanation" was 100% right. Your explanation justifies nothing. Give us the real analysis that is so "easy". Lots of people come in here, criticize, post their own list without any true analysis. You have to spend quite a bit of time and thought behind a list with concrete reasons based on what you see and results and detailed comparisons to other players on the list to accurately place them, not one liners summarizing that "Best's PvT is still strong".
With all the attacks on FakeSteve's "credibility" behind making a rank like this, and you saying you could "easily" come up with one and provide explanations, I'm still waiting. Right now your list is a mess, I'm glad you're not the one writing this feature.
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Best power rank ive ever seen
GW fakesteve
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On December 15 2008 09:04 Dazed_Spy wrote:
1. Bisu
2. Stork
3. Flash
4. Jangbi
5. Free
6. Best
7. FBH
8. Jaedong
9. Kal
10. Leta
CBNC
pusan, sea, yarnc, calm
well, ur PR is really really close to FakeSteve's, so I don`t understand why do u complain this much for the #10 spot, u have to realize that there will always be people that aren`t 100% satisfied, but that`s just because we have different oppinions.
Actually, if I saw a PR in which I agree with 1-9 spots...hell! then the PR is GREAT!
edit: On December 14 2008 01:23 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:CBNC Coming soon! List players you want to see and I'll do my best to comment on every one 
next time u login at look at this, please make the CBNC, u have quite a few opinions
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I honestly can not understand why people are bitching about this being late. If you got told you were gonna get a laptop in a month and a) you didn't get overly excited and plan your life around ONE laptop, then b) it came in a couple weeks late, would you really give a fuck? I really doubt it. Waiting an extra couple weeks for a new fucking laptop is no big deal if it's free (assume it's a good laptop just because...). Same principle applies here (except that I can't play DotA on the PR).
FBH at #6 huh...?? I'll wait patiently until he dethrones Bisu, stays undefeatable for three months (in which he literally is undefeated), and is thus hailed bonjwa.
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Hot_Bid,I would love to see you write a PR,I love your sense of humour. Anyway,glad you're back Steve,we've been missing your PR's and this one is almost perfect,I don't even want to be bitching about anything on it. Great rank,I just hope that the next one will be sooner.
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Hell yeah! Bisu returns to his throne. Change places for nr. 3 and 4 and I can't agree more.
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On December 15 2008 05:53 Dazed_Spy wrote:
The attitude is the fucking problem, along side the *extreme* lateness of the PR. For MONTHS now.
On December 15 2008 09:04 Dazed_Spy wrote:Creating flame bait, which will inevitably lead to me, the PR writer, coming off as a condescending arrogant asshole, throwing around threats of banning etc- well, thats not conducive to a healthy website. So I would not even attempt to do that.
I agree 100 % with this.
Hot_Bid wrote:
i said its OK to criticize that its late and advocate it be done on time, just not in the assholish way he did it. thats what he was warned about, his insulting tone, not the actual complaint of timeliness. in fact, i'm the first person that will complain about the rank never being on time.
try to read what i say before you type your looools and wtfs. the warning was 100% justified, Dazed_Spy was acting like an asshole.
Actually, Fakesteve was the one being rude first, but whatever. Who cares. I'm saying Dazed_Spy made a valid point, and you give him a warning for the language without even acknowledging what he said.
Hot_Bid wrote:
i don't understand where we take ourselves too seriously when nowhere have we said its an official rank or that FS is the leading authority on player strength the past month. its just a rank by someone who watches the games and is thoughtful about the results. its a fun feature that is meant to generate discussion.
The bold part: Fakesteve has in pretty much every single rank used the "if you cant see his strength you arent as good as me" argument. He can't state in a more obvious way that he is "the leading authority on player strength for the past month". You honestly don't see it?
Again, like dazedspy said: the problem is the fucking attitude. How is it a fun feature when the discussion most of the times ends with he fakesteves trademark "I know more than you".
I don't take the list seriously. I have put more time on typing this than I should maybe, but my point is that I want to discuss starcraft and read discussions about starcraft which is what Oneother did good. I have no interest in reading about how good fakesteve is at analyzing games again and again.
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EPT
