Power Rank 12/14/2008

On December 14 2008 01:23 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:
CBNC Coming soon! List players you want to see and I'll do my best to comment on every one

DON'T WRITE SHIT LIKE HURRR WHERE IS POKJU???? BECAUSE I'LL BE SO ANGRY YOU CANT EVEN BELIEVE IT

On December 14 2008 01:31 Dahlia... wrote:
no zerg rofl

On December 14 2008 01:36 freelander wrote:
I like this pr, though too many protoss are there.
I honestly can't understand how FBH can suck so much in tvp while being so good against the other two races.
Is tvp too complex? or just tvp doesn't fit his style? what the heck

On December 14 2008 01:43 disciple wrote:

its called Casy-Syndrome

On December 14 2008 01:53 MrHoon wrote:
offtopic but seriously, bringing back rush hour was probably one of the best decisions Kespa ever made.

On December 14 2008 02:09 Avidkeystamper wrote:
Does anyone feel FBH's a little high at 6?

On December 14 2008 02:20 wswordsmen wrote:
Kal lost to Jangbi 1-3 not 2-3.

On December 14 2008 02:52 Vasoline73 wrote:
Sea at 10? . I would have put Yarnc there.. the guy is doing much better in proleague and IMO is the more feared player. I guess it's debatable, because Sea is consistent overall.. but this month Yarnc is clearly the better player IMO

On December 14 2008 03:37 Dazed_Spy wrote:
It kind of goes without saying that Leta deserves the PR more than Sea.

Really, that just pissed me off. And yeah, FBH is way too fuckin high.

Edit: Isn't this a power rank for last month? Sea's justification were games from this month. Last month he played like a scrub, this month hes given good games.

On December 14 2008 03:59 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:


what the hell would be the point of not including games up until the PR is released? So we could have an inaccurate ranking because i pretend not to know what happened between december first and now? that's the dumbest thing I've ever heard,

On December 14 2008 04:27 Dazed_Spy wrote:
Or maybe you could try not releasing PR half way through the fucking month every damn time?

On December 14 2008 04:27 Dazed_Spy wrote:
Or maybe you could try not releasing PR half way through the fucking month every damn time?

On December 14 2008 04:23 Hot_Bid wrote:
the only change i'd make would be removing Jaedong completely and adding Fantasy or Leta, and reordering the bottom part. imo Fantasy's losses are far more justifiable than FBH's.

my list would be:

1. Bisu
2. Stork
3. Flash
4. Jangbi
5. free
6. Best
7. Kal
8-10. Some combo of FBH/Leta/Fantasy/Sea

For the FBH / Leta / Fantasy / Sea discussion, they are all performing amazingly in proleague. Leta and Fantasy have more wins, but it's a wash since they are all doing very well. Then you look at individual leagues:

Fantasy: seeded into OSL, passed MSL qualifiers
Leta: passed OSL qualifiers, passed MSL qualifiers
Sea: passed OSL qualifiers (seeded), qualified for MSL
FBH: failed OSL qualifiers, seeded in MSL

You could argue that FBH's MSL performance counts more, but it was back in October. In November, he is just 0-3 vs Bisu in MSL. The seed shouldn't count that much.

I think the rank for these four should be:

1. Sea / Fantasy (very close)
3. Leta / FBH (again very close)

Going with my gut and how these guys are playing, I think it should be Sea, then Fantasy, then Leta. But it's debatable for sure, but I just don't think FBH is as high as #6.

Other than this it's a great rank, I especially agree with Bisu at #1. Great job Steve!

On December 14 2008 01:36 freelander wrote:
I like this pr, though too many protoss are there.
I honestly can't understand how FBH can suck so much in tvp while being so good against the other two races.
Is tvp too complex? or just tvp doesn't fit his style? what the heck

On December 14 2008 06:13 PH wrote:
I don't know about Jaedong getting flat-out outplayed...I mean, yeah...his last game with FBH was pretty bad...

But either way, he's just been making really really really DUMB decisions lately. He opened strong (but a liiitle shakier than usual) at the start of the season...but like...zergs in general are having a hard time against terrans, but like his ZvP and ZvZ are showing signs of just dumb play where he hangs on for longer than most would have due to his extreme mechanics. Like that ZvP game on Andromeda (I forget who it was) this season where he made like 18 lurkers against a goon heavy army... -_____-;;... Or that ZvZ on...Neo Requiem I believe? (might have been Raid Assault)...where he lost because he tried to play with some cute ling micro and bust the other guy's ramp...which resulted in HIS ling line getting run past...and then losing like three or four drones...

He needs to shape up the strategic aspect of his game...he's still among the top as a modern SC player in all other respects, imo.

On December 14 2008 06:24 Jaeden wrote:

hooooooooooooping u are right, sir
I mean, I know he`s really good, it`s just that his inspiration is nowhere to be seen. It`s gettin` blinded by the bad decision-making

On December 14 2008 05:22 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:


That makes a lot of sense. What made FBH stick out for me was that he is incredibly likely to have a comparable level of success in MSL this season (that is, crushing every Terran and Zerg he plays against) and is still very likely to maintain his performance in ProLeague. That measure of consistancy made him worthy of higher praise in my mind, because it shows that he is, for the moment, a justifiably better player than Leta/Sea/Fantasy.

Fantasy is off the list because after OSL none of his games were impressive, he looked like a generic run-of-the-mill Terran pro. That's not conducive to placement in the top 10. I think FBH's consistancy should be recognized, and while the other three Terrans in question have comparable performances, they aren't nearly as reliable. Of course, with the coming MSL/OSL this is all up in the air, it just made more sense to have FBH above them right now because he is consistantly that good all the time.

The players below him are Best, Jaedong, Kal, and Sea (plus everyone else). We agree about Jaedong being lower, but I don't think Kal or Best (particularily Best despite how he positively bleeds potential) should be higher than FBH given the last month and a half of games.

On December 14 2008 06:13 PH wrote:
But either way, he's just been making really really really DUMB decisions lately. He opened strong (but a liiitle shakier than usual) at the start of the season...but like...zergs in general are having a hard time against terrans, but like his ZvP and ZvZ are showing signs of just dumb play where he hangs on for longer than most would have due to his extreme mechanics. Like that ZvP game on Andromeda (I forget who it was) this season where he made like 18 lurkers against a goon heavy army... -_____-;;... Or that ZvZ on...Neo Requiem I believe? (might have been Raid Assault)...where he lost because he tried to play with some cute ling micro and bust the other guy's ramp...which resulted in HIS ling line getting run past...and then losing like three or four drones...

On December 14 2008 08:36 disciple wrote:
yeah, looking at the stats JD must be a zvz GOD but if I have to name a guy who has a shot of beating him in a BoX zvz match...well this is OverSky. Just watch their last encounters, all the games were ridiculously close

On December 14 2008 05:22 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:


That makes a lot of sense. What made FBH stick out for me was that he is incredibly likely to have a comparable level of success in MSL this season (that is, crushing every Terran and Zerg he plays against) and is still very likely to maintain his performance in ProLeague. That measure of consistancy made him worthy of higher praise in my mind, because it shows that he is, for the moment, a justifiably better player than Leta/Sea/Fantasy.

On December 14 2008 10:26 zer0das wrote:
I think Effort deserves at least a mention, if not a CBNC. Although I guess getting knocked out of GOM by Best was a blow to his cause. Although those game's aren't in TLPD for some reason. :S

On December 14 2008 11:50 Dazed_Spy wrote:
In about two hours Stork is going to prove why he should have been #3.

Oh what fun!

On December 14 2008 11:50 Dazed_Spy wrote:
In about two hours Stork is going to prove why he should have been #3.

Oh what fun!

On December 14 2008 08:28 AnOth3rDAy wrote:
Bisu is dominating, but Stork isnt really playing that good after his OSL win which got him #1 spot last month. Saying that no one is close to stork now except bisu and flash is wrong imo.

On December 14 2008 13:23 KizZBG wrote:
Really/Sangho/Up for CBNC.

On December 14 2008 17:30 Juicyfruit wrote:
Funny thing is, I was going to troll and post "where is Pokju?" for lulz, and then I realized he is a real player.

Nice PR.

On December 14 2008 16:28 Jaeden wrote:
Unfortunately for u FS, this won`t get as many hits as OneOther's PR ...well maybe it will if u`ll reply to the posters like he did

On December 14 2008 17:57 AzureEye wrote:


no, i just think FS's Powerrank is more agreeable to more people

On December 14 2008 18:10 Jaeden wrote:

exactly, that`s what I was tryin` to say

On December 14 2008 18:40 OneOther wrote:

nah, my ranking itself is really agreeable, but i say my true thoughts in the comments.

On December 14 2008 08:36 disciple wrote:
yeah, looking at the stats JD must be a zvz GOD but if I have to name a guy who has a shot of beating him in a BoX zvz match...well this is OverSky. Just watch their last encounters, all the games were ridiculously close

On December 14 2008 19:22 raga4ka wrote:


Hell no the only zerg that could challenge him is Yarnc , and i don't give him much chance in a Bo series ... maybe Luxury but Jaedong already killed him twise in two series ...Oversky is good and althought he took a game from him he won't be much of match for Jaedong because of the gap in mechanics ...

On December 14 2008 19:35 Phradamon wrote:
Lool
1- FBH too high, i would have replaced him with Leta
2- Sea fanboism, no comment, just like i was predicting in previous PR. There are lot of player who played better aka Pusan or Upmagic or Mind, or Magma being in both leagues....
3- JD must be above Best as Best dropped MSL and JD qualified in OSL and being in MSL already in MSL Survivor and having same results as Best have.

Howgh!

On December 14 2008 19:35 Phradamon wrote:
Lool
1- FBH too high, i would have replaced him with Leta
2- Sea fanboism, no comment, just like i was predicting in previous PR. There are lot of player who played better aka Pusan or Upmagic or Mind, or Magma being in both leagues....
3- JD must be above Best as Best dropped MSL and JD qualified in OSL and being in MSL already in MSL Survivor and having same results as Best have.

Howgh!

On December 14 2008 20:17 tilhorizon wrote:
one of the best pr i would say but


"Bisu edges out superiority by a small margin, but he is superior nonetheless. Viva Revolution~"

i dont think its that small ,,, its small in pvsp i hope you all did see the 2:1 win bisu over stork in the ief finals

but the margin is not that small in pvsz and he is clearly more champion material overall

bisu is clearly the nr 1

On December 14 2008 23:46 miseiler wrote:
Anyone who thinks FBH is too high has clearly 1) never seen him play, or 2) thinks "Hurr hurr, he dances that means I can't take him seriously." I'm sure many opponents have thought #2 as well.

Right before he stomped them. And THEN danced on their corpses.

Seriously he's a murderer and clearly better than anyone underneath him.

On December 14 2008 07:51 Plexa wrote:
Steve you've read wayyy too much into Sea vs Jaedong. He's been playing games like that forever (see Savior vs Sea at WWI for instance) and Sea vs Iris? Well iris is no badass TvT these days; a better player would have cleaned out iris way earlier. Pusan would have been a better pick for this spot with his 9-2 record in proleauge (beating stork etc), or even magma based off his performance in the prelims/MST (which was fucking impressive). Hell, even fantasy has been playing better (on the whole) than Sea has

Jaedong has no place on this rank, i dont think he would beat anyone on this ranking tbh.

On December 14 2008 23:46 miseiler wrote:
Anyone who thinks FBH is too high has clearly 1) never seen him play, or 2) thinks "Hurr hurr, he dances that means I can't take him seriously." I'm sure many opponents have thought #2 as well.

Right before he stomped them. And THEN danced on their corpses.

Seriously he's a murderer and clearly better than anyone underneath him.

On December 15 2008 02:06 Ra.Xor.2 wrote:
Bisu!!!!!!!! Is bring sexy back. Other than that, I think that Jaedong is still a bit too high, FBH anyone? And Leta should be 10. Savior seems to be staging a comeback as well :D.

On December 15 2008 01:42 raga4ka wrote:
Or 3.) There are more deserving players then him ...

On December 14 2008 04:30 Hot_Bid wrote:

Steve's right about your idea being stupid, he has to take into consideration all the games up to that point. It's the best solution for a PR that doesn't come on the first of the month. Also, there's a respectful way to say "hey lets release it on time please!" instead of yelling it like some unappreciative douche. Consider this a warning.

On December 15 2008 04:12 Krigstar wrote:


loooooool

First of all, ITS A PERSONAL TOP 10 LIST! Nothing else! Secondly, the rank has been late like every month in 2008. Originally this was a monthly rank so I think it's a very valid question to ask. Warning wtf :D

Some of you take yourselves and this list waaaaaay seriously. It's difficult not to make fun of you, specially when Fakesteve actually thinks he has authority for getting his top ten list published for the public. Loosen up a bit.

Also Steve, if you are going to continue to analyze games and pretend to be good at it at least tell us your ICCup rank rather than your amount of watched games so we can see if there is anything to back up your arrogance when discussing with those who don't agree with you. A ground course in methodology wouldn't hurt either.

On December 15 2008 04:28 brjdrb wrote:

instead, be thankful that someone more informed than you is giving u a rough idea of who's playing well in starcraft

On December 15 2008 04:52 Dazed_Spy wrote:
Isnt that the question? To which level he is informed? To which level he is biased? And why would we be thankful? There are many, many people on this site, fully willing and capable of doing the PR- on a timely basis. No one begged and pleaded for FS to do the PR rank, it is simply a feature of the site. Criticism is utterly valid. Groveling is not.

On December 15 2008 05:15 brjdrb wrote:
You don't have the authority to make your own thread? And even if you don't actually go through with making it, I'm sure that going through and actually watching the games and doing all of the research that going into a PR, official or not, would give you a good idea of whether or not steve is qualified. In fact, I can't think of a better way of deciding.

On December 14 2008 20:42 Geo.Rion wrote:



you use the offliners against Best, but you dont mention Pusan failed both MSL and OSL prelims. Try to be rational. Best has to be above JD, Pusan has nothing to do with PR nor Mind, Magma and Up might reach CBNC, but even that might be too early. FBH being too high, that might be, replacing with Leta, no.

Startin your post with "Lool" doesnt help either, it makes you look like a 13 yeras old child.

On December 15 2008 05:15 brjdrb wrote:
You don't have the authority to make your own thread? And even if you don't actually go through with making it, I'm sure that going through and actually watching the games and doing all of the research that going into a PR, official or not, would give you a good idea of whether or not steve is qualified. In fact, I can't think of a better way of deciding.

On December 15 2008 05:44 Krigstar wrote:


I like the way Fakesteve does the rank. He is a good writer and has interesting thoughts. He is however, not better than anyone else when it comes to make a personal top 10 list and because of this I don't like his attitude towards others. It was cute at first, but now it has obviously gone over his head and he seems to overrate himself like an idiot. He is not cute, he is arrogant like hell. His lists are not better because he watches 1000 games every week and analyzes every game. I can tell my grandmother to do that too and it still wouldn't increase her knowledge of the game enough.

What's the point of watching all games, when you can't watch it with an open mind. And he obviously can't watch the games with an open mind since he believes that those who don't agree with him are clueless. You have to understand that doing the list in 10 hours or 1 hour is irrelevant. If anything it must be worse for the credibility to let a mediocre player analyze a game on a pro level and actually think he can do it good.

I understand the power rank, but I hate the fact that people get warnings and fakesteve talks like he is better than anyone else at making top ten lists. It's just bizarre the whole situation. Again, it's a fucking top ten list from one single person lol.

On December 15 2008 05:53 Dazed_Spy wrote:
Clearly I watch a lot of SC, I know a shitload about the game- and im probably about Fakesteves skill level, and im not fucking good at Starcraft. Im as qualified as FS is to make these lists. I know full well though, that despite watching a LOT of starcraft and analyzing to the best of my ability, reading strategy and so on, I am NOT qualified to say for certain who is the top ten. I understand the game in theory, not in actual application, I don't know the truly in depth. Nor does fakesteve, or yes, he would be above D rank. I could easily make a power rank, and it would not be entirely different from this one.

The attitude is the fucking problem, along side the *extreme* lateness of the PR. For MONTHS now.

On December 15 2008 05:53 Dazed_Spy wrote:
Clearly I watch a lot of SC, I know a shitload about the game- and im probably about Fakesteves skill level, and im not fucking good at Starcraft. Im as qualified as FS is to make these lists. I know full well though, that despite watching a LOT of starcraft and analyzing to the best of my ability, reading strategy and so on, I am NOT qualified to say for certain who is the top ten. I understand the game in theory, not in actual application, I don't know the truly in depth. Nor does fakesteve, or yes, he would be above D rank. I could easily make a power rank, and it would not be entirely different from this one.

The attitude is the fucking problem, along side the *extreme* lateness of the PR. For MONTHS now.

On December 15 2008 08:37 Jaeden wrote:


then go on and show us ur PR. No need for a new thread, just post it here, I`m really curious.

On December 15 2008 08:53 Aesop wrote:

The whole thing required for PR appear to be:

1) Create a ranking that is reasonable
2) Put forward good arguments for that ranking

but in reality it's rather:

0) Write up a ranking, and make the wording, so that there will be discussion and controversy for a whole month. Sometimes drop into the thread to re-ignite the discussion.

Maybe you can do 1,2. But are you respected and skilled enough to do 0?

On December 15 2008 09:04 Dazed_Spy wrote:
Creating flame bait, which will inevitably lead to me, the PR writer, coming off as a condescending arrogant asshole, throwing around threats of banning etc- well, thats not conducive to a healthy website. So I would not even attempt to do that.

On December 15 2008 09:12 Aesop wrote:

It is not simply flame-bait. It is rather voicing a reasonable opinion in a way that creates discussion and keeps it alive. As you saw, your Powerrank would be similar. But nobody would want to discuss it throughout almost 1000 comments. Why is that so?

On December 15 2008 04:12 Krigstar wrote:

loooooool

First of all, ITS A PERSONAL TOP 10 LIST! Nothing else! Secondly, the rank has been late like every month in 2008. Originally this was a monthly rank so I think it's a very valid question to ask. Warning wtf :D

Some of you take yourselves and this list waaaaaay seriously. It's difficult not to make fun of you, specially when Fakesteve actually thinks he has authority for getting his top ten list published for the public. Loosen up a bit.

Also Steve, if you are going to continue to analyze games and pretend to be good at it at least tell us your ICCup rank rather than your amount of watched games so we can see if there is anything to back up your arrogance when discussing with those who don't agree with you. A ground course in methodology wouldn't hurt either.

On December 15 2008 03:12 Krigstar wrote:
Wow...

Sea raping an under performing Jaedong on the worst ZvT map today and making a game vs Iris who just sucks, last way longer than it should. And you honestly use those games as an example to show Seas skill. Havent you proved already that your analysis of Sea's potential and performance always are as wrong as it could possibly be? And to top it all off you have the arrogance of telling people they don't know what they are talking when you have made hundreds of identical statements of Seas performance in 90 % of your Power Ranks and ALWAYS been proven wrong, and at the same time made fun of those who questioned you. I don't mind you being a fan and it showing off in the Power Rank, but to act like you actually are credible when it comes to analyzing Sea is ridiculous.

So please, when people say they don't understand Seas position on the rank, DO NOT claim they don't know as much as you about pro-level starcraft. I mean, you have clearly dismissed records in the past when it hurts your favorite player or favors the player you hate, but not even you can ignore your record on times you've been wrong about Sea.

I didnt think i would miss oneother this much

On December 15 2008 04:52 Dazed_Spy wrote:
Isnt that the question? To which level he is informed? To which level he is biased? And why would we be thankful? There are many, many people on this site, fully willing and capable of doing the PR- on a timely basis. No one begged and pleaded for FS to do the PR rank, it is simply a feature of the site. Criticism is utterly valid. Groveling is not.

On December 15 2008 10:55 Hot_Bid wrote:

while i agree Steve has been biased in the past about Sea, i think Sea's placement on this month's ranking is actually justified.

On December 15 2008 09:22 OneOther wrote:
lol i am sad my power rank didnt reach 1000 comments, so close

although i know you love sea, you are giving him too much credit for his games against Jaedong and Iris. beating jaedong, which plenty of other players have done lately, is not enough to give him that #10 spot imo. sure, it was a nice game, but there are other more deserving players, such as leta, pusan, and yarnc. the game verses iris was a joke because he had it won much earlier and decided to drag it on. you can call it a good game if you but that should not give him the edge over those three players i listed, who have been ripping apart Proleague for a while now.

you watched kal's games against midas, go.go, pure, tosky, and etc? yes, i know they are not S-class gamers, but it's better than jaedong losing left and right to everyone he runs into. (bo3 loss against templest lol)

On December 15 2008 11:32 Hot_Bid wrote:
tbh leta fantasy sea and fbh are all pretty interchangeable, and if you factor in the map imbalances int he recent individual leagues you could make a case for a different player at all the positions under Flash at #3

On December 15 2008 09:04 Dazed_Spy wrote:
1. Bisu
2. Stork
3. Flash
4. Jangbi
5. Free
6. Best
7. FBH
8. Jaedong
9. Kal
10. Leta

CBNC
pusan, sea, yarnc, calm

On December 15 2008 13:47 Hot_Bid wrote:
Dazed_Spy, i'd like to see your justification for putting FBH above Kal but below Best, and why Jaedong is above Kal and Leta

On December 15 2008 13:25 Pooshlmer wrote:


This is pointless, anyone can list a bunch of players with no commentary whatsoever.

On December 15 2008 14:07 Dazed_Spy wrote:
A degree of favouring has to be given to players who were dominate previously. Stork would not be very high on the PR if this was not done, because his games this month didn't show much. But he played really well the month before that, and throughout his career. So you give him some degree of leeway. That is why Jaedong has the position he does. He was a consistent, top tier player, and while he has played like complete ass this month, has every capability to pull that out again. To drop him from 4, right off the PR, even after being on it for a year, is a bad precedent to set. Any time an established player had a bump in the road, they would be set packing, and who would replace them?

That same justification for consistency is why I placed Kal, Leta, and FBH where I did. Kal has shown some really good ace games lately, but hes also shown some really mediocre PL games all over the board. He has shown unimpressive PVP, right after and right before showing good pvp. Until he elevates his play and manages to get a degree of consistency, of course hes going to be low in the rankings.

Leta, while showing to be an incredibly skilled terran, all around, has not gone anywhere in the leauges, and is only just now coming into his own. I see it as premature to give him any higher of a spot. Just as it is premature to put Magma on the CBNC as some suggest. Though thats a rather extreme example.

FBH and Best have been consistently top tier players for a very long time now. Both of them have weak match ups.

However both of them have shown some- some- progress in this match up. FBH is very hot in his tvz and his tvt. It would be an insult to his play to deny him a respectable spot on the PR.

Best on the other hand, while he may not be unbeatable in his pvp, and even missed out on MSL, has shown us nothing to think that he isnt still in top form in that match up. Missing out on a league is bad, but its done frequently. Hes gone far in GOM, and his pvt is extremely strong.

On December 15 2008 09:04 Dazed_Spy wrote:
1. Bisu
2. Stork
3. Flash
4. Jangbi
5. Free
6. Best
7. FBH
8. Jaedong
9. Kal
10. Leta

CBNC
pusan, sea, yarnc, calm

On December 14 2008 01:23 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:
CBNC Coming soon! List players you want to see and I'll do my best to comment on every one

On December 15 2008 05:53 Dazed_Spy wrote:
The attitude is the fucking problem, along side the *extreme* lateness of the PR. For MONTHS now.

On December 15 2008 09:04 Dazed_Spy wrote:
Creating flame bait, which will inevitably lead to me, the PR writer, coming off as a condescending arrogant asshole, throwing around threats of banning etc- well, thats not conducive to a healthy website. So I would not even attempt to do that.

Hot_Bid wrote:
i said its OK to criticize that its late and advocate it be done on time, just not in the assholish way he did it. thats what he was warned about, his insulting tone, not the actual complaint of timeliness. in fact, i'm the first person that will complain about the rank never being on time.

try to read what i say before you type your looools and wtfs. the warning was 100% justified, Dazed_Spy was acting like an asshole.

Hot_Bid wrote:
i don't understand where we take ourselves too seriously when nowhere have we said its an official rank or that FS is the leading authority on player strength the past month. its just a rank by someone who watches the games and is thoughtful about the results. its a fun feature that is meant to generate discussion.

On December 15 2008 12:53 QibingZero wrote:


See this is my problem with a lot of the posts in response. I actually made a post with a couple criticisms on the actual PR for what I think seemed to be not taking into consideration performance over results, but you guys are going the opposite way. The Jaedong - Sea game was absolutely amazing on both sides. I don't see how you can say that game took anything away from either player, let alone act as if beating Jaedong in a game like that is no big deal (what, because Jaedong lost a bo3 to a protoss on ridiculous maps?). The same thing can be said for the games Jaedong lost to FBH (first one) and free.

And all this talk about Sea not being as impressive as the other names mentioned (yet few are saying anything about FBH, who didn't qualify for the OSL, being at 6) is ridiculous. The one time there's decent justification for Sea being on the PR, everyone complains (and he's at #10 ffs!) Go figure

On December 15 2008 20:59 Plexa wrote:
Not quite true. Yes Sea played two amazing games, thats a fact. However the fact that they were so close is indicative of the skill level being relatively close. What we see here is Iris (a player no where near the CBNC list) pulling off a really really close game against sea. That means they are on comparable skill level in TvT - not that Sea is a god of all things (if that were the case he would have raped him in under 20mins). Same argument can be applied to the Jaedong game, however, Sea's control was really lacking throughout, and it was really his glaring mistakes which allowed Jaedong to stay in the game for so long and turn it into an amazing game. Once again, great game - but not something to take as "SEAS TVZ IS NO1".

The thing is, close games happen all the time at all possible skill levels. Two amazing and close games by Sea cannot demonstrate effectively that Sea is PR material. Pusan is but one player who has far exceeded Sea for this month, and i choose him as an example because i know the most about his recent games. Pusan won a very close game with Stork on Colo (this was just as Stork started to lose games, so he was still pretty much the guy to beat). This means that Pusan's PvP is pretty much PR #2 level - that's saying something (he also beat kal so w/e ). He smashed through a number of mediocre terrans relatively easily and his pvt is showing no fault from the prelims. However his PvZ is kinda lacking atm, i'll you that, and he played a close game against Kwanro on colo - given that Pusan had to comeback and win - its safe to say that pusan's pvz is much better than kwanro's zvp, but still not at a level near Kal etc (well there is no evidence to suggest that). To top that off, losing in the finals against two up and coming zergs (by.hero and maGma) doesn't really bode well for an argument for strong PvZ. With that said, he has still performed better than Sea in proleauge and is fully justified to be placed ahead of him. I'm not saying that Pusan should be #10 (he should be cbnc because of his pvz), but Sea should be ranked lower than him.

On December 15 2008 21:38 raga4ka wrote:


If Pusan qualified for at least 1 league i would agree that he deserves PR more then Sea .

Then again i don't think that Sea and FBH should be here from what i've seen they are not the second best terrans after Flash .

Imo Leta has been fucking killing everyone in PL like Flash and he is in both leagues so far . And i've watched Mind's games this month and they are by far the most intelligent and impressive out of all terrans . And he actually wins TvP's like Flash does ....



Edit : + Show Spoiler +

On December 15 2008 20:59 Plexa wrote:
Same argument can be applied to the Jaedong game, however, Sea's control was really lacking throughout, and it was really his glaring mistakes which allowed Jaedong to stay in the game for so long and turn it into an amazing game. Once again, great game - but not something to take as "SEAS TVZ IS NO1".

On December 15 2008 22:18 baubo wrote:


The problem with Leta is that he almost a pure proleague player. Starleague is a different animal from proleague because of how you prepare for it. And Leta's only played 6 starleague games so far.

As for Mind, today's game doesn't exactly count. Otherwise I think he's as good choice as any.

Given past record and overall experience, I think FBH is the second best terran out there. He may not be worth #6, but should be higher than others.

On December 15 2008 22:45 Geo.Rion wrote:



Glaring mistakes? I didnt see those. Sea vs jaedong was the best TvZ i've seen in a long time. Against FBH JD didnt play this well, he committed some really ugly mistakes in game 1, and in the second he reacted poorly to the bunker rush. BUt the game against Sea JD played briliantly, with a good build, awesome defiler control. Sea's multitasking was amazing, his macro was the factor what kept him in the game. And not only he beat Iris in a close game. Iris didnt played poorly. Sea's macro and multitasking was good. He stumped Hwasin too on the same map days later. AND HE'S IN BOTH LEAUGES! Pusan isnt. he failed both offliners. Loosing in one of them that's ok, in both, that's poor. Sea will met Leta soon so then the discussion will end.

Here many ppl were saying Flash for 1st/2nd spot, he would beat Stork or Bisu if they meet. I said, let's wait for the game, it will happen. Well it happened, he lost to Stork, and he will have to face Bisu too. So wait tilt Sea meets some of his "rivals".

On December 15 2008 22:59 Fwmeh wrote:


A short note about Sea vs Jaedong. Look at the vessels. See how he floats his vessels right into waiting scourge. Watch that first push against 3 o clock. Tell me with a straight face Sea didn't make any mistakes.

He is however in both leagues, and is playing overall quite well. I still think Leta would have been a better 10.

On December 15 2008 22:56 raga4ka wrote:


FBH isn't as solid in all 3 MUs as Mind and Leta are . Mind is the only terran besides Flash that i give a good chance about 40 % vs JangBI and Stork and ~ 50% - 60 % of winning chance against Best , Bisu , Kal and Free if the maps played are with decent balance that is . Most of the other terrans can't even make them sweat . I mean FBH losing to Bisu 3 - 0 in a painful series to watch and Bisu's PvT isn't even that great compared to Stork's/JangBi's and the others . FBH should have at least if not taken a game then made them more good or entertaining to watch back then , instead of a one - sided rapes .

On December 16 2008 00:30 baubo wrote:


Two points.

1. A lot of this is speculation, since we DON'T know how Mind and Leta would fair against the likes of Bisu or Stork. But Leta losing to Best implies that he's not quite there yet. Besides, Leta has NOT played enough games to say anything besides having good TvT.

2. It's gotten to the point where FBH's infamous TvP is completely outshadowing the fact that he's one of the best, if not the very best, TvTer and TvZer around.

On December 15 2008 23:43 Geo.Rion wrote:


i don't say he played absolutely perfect. About the vessels. That was more JD's briliance to snipe them so efficiently. jaedong's sniping skills are the best i ever seen, taking about shuttles, vessels, HTs, whatever he's so good in taking out the key units. However Sea could keep up his vessel count, he usually had enough vessels on the field to irradiate the defilers and some ultras. his mistakes werent critical, he defended the counters, macroed like hell, attacked multiple locations, dropped like hell, he was everywhere, you can't take that win away from him. You cant even say JD s slumping. He played very well against Sea.

On December 15 2008 22:56 raga4ka wrote:


FBH isn't as solid in all 3 MUs as Mind and Leta are . Mind is the only terran besides Flash that i give a good chance about 40 % vs JangBI and Stork and ~ 50% - 60 % of winning chance against Best , Bisu , Kal and Free if the maps played are with decent balance that is . Most of the other terrans can't even make them sweat . I mean FBH losing to Bisu 3 - 0 in a painful series to watch and Bisu's PvT isn't even that great compared to Stork's/JangBi's and the others . FBH should have at least if not taken a game then made them more good or entertaining to watch back then , instead of a one - sided rapes .

On December 16 2008 01:12 Shikyo wrote:

I'd say maGma has the best scourge, refer to maGma vs Hwasin is you disagree.



Last 10 (old -> recent): W L W W W L L L W W

What's up with people dissing FBH's TvP so much? Sure, it's not Flash's or Mind's level, but 6-4 in last 10 isn't exactly bad, especially since 3 of those losses was to Bisu on fire. He beat Kal in a long macro game on a protoss map as well. People are seriously underestimating FBH's TvP, and his TvZ and TvT are extremely good.

On December 16 2008 01:02 raga4ka wrote:


Almost all A and S - class terrans have one of the best TvT and TvZs . I agree that FBH is pretty good in TvT but so are tons of terrans - Sea , Iris , Flash , Mind , Fantasy , Leta , even ForGG and other players are showing strong TvT .
And yes FBH has good TvZ , but i meen he played 1 decent game vs Jaedong then lost to Saint then bunker rushed Jaedong in the next game , and after that he lost to Hojja in offlines Bo 3 . Again there are tons of players that boost great TvZ but are showing equal or better results then him in PL and some of them are in more leagues so far and their TvP's are more solid then his . Aside from FBH's seed in MSL and that he is doing good in PL ( Like tons of other terrans are ) . He isn't playing in Gom lost to Bogus of all people , and now he lost to some newby in OSL offlines . People who have great TvZ and TvT's don't lose twise to random newbys especially in Bo 3 series .

On December 16 2008 01:12 Shikyo wrote:

I'd say maGma has the best scourge, refer to maGma vs Hwasin is you disagree.



Last 10 (old -> recent): W L W W W L L L W W

What's up with people dissing FBH's TvP so much? Sure, it's not Flash's or Mind's level, but 6-4 in last 10 isn't exactly bad, especially since 3 of those losses was to Bisu on fire. He beat Kal in a long macro game on a protoss map as well. People are seriously underestimating FBH's TvP, and his TvZ and TvT are extremely good.

On December 16 2008 01:02 raga4ka wrote:


Almost all A and S - class terrans have one of the best TvT and TvZs . I agree that FBH is pretty good in TvT but so are tons of terrans - Sea , Iris , Flash , Mind , Fantasy , Leta , even ForGG and other players are showing strong TvT .
And yes FBH has good TvZ , but i meen he played 1 decent game vs Jaedong then lost to Saint then bunker rushed Jaedong in the next game , and after that he lost to Hojja in offlines Bo 3 . Again there are tons of players that boost great TvZ but are showing equal or better results then him in PL and some of them are in more leagues so far and their TvP's are more solid then his . Aside from FBH's seed in MSL and that he is doing good in PL ( Like tons of other terrans are ) . He isn't playing in Gom lost to Bogus of all people , and now he lost to some newby in OSL offlines . People who have great TvZ and TvT's don't lose twise to random newbys especially in Bo 3 series .

On December 16 2008 03:16 AnOth3rDAy wrote:
FBH's games vs bogus was kinda meh... doesnt take away any of his TvT skill.

On December 14 2008 20:42 Geo.Rion wrote:



you use the offliners against Best, but you dont mention Pusan failed both MSL and OSL prelims. Try to be rational. Best has to be above JD, Pusan has nothing to do with PR nor Mind, Magma and Up might reach CBNC, but even that might be too early. FBH being too high, that might be, replacing with Leta, no.

Startin your post with "Lool" doesnt help either, it makes you look like a 13 yeras old child.

On December 16 2008 04:45 Phradamon wrote:


Really? Did you see UpMagic qualifing from Survivor? No? Than watch it, than post...Can someone compare apples with apples and pineapples with pineapples for one second?

On December 16 2008 03:16 baubo wrote:


First of all, offline prelim is the worst method to judge a person's MU, because of the nature of the tourny.

And it's somewhat appalling to see such a long list of players you used to compare to FBH's TvT. The only person on par with him in this MU is Flash.

On December 16 2008 12:35 Dazed_Spy wrote:
I havent watched all the games of flash vs fbh, however, one of them was a rush. In general, 3 games is a very small sample. Flash is a better tvt player than FBH, and would likely crush im in a series. Obviously upsets can happen. But a few b01's [and I think Sea can testify to this!] don't mean much in the long run.

On December 16 2008 12:52 Sprite wrote:



Watch the other 2 games and then come back maybe that will change your opinion more then words.

On December 15 2008 22:59 Fwmeh wrote:


A short note about Sea vs Jaedong. Look at the vessels. See how he floats his vessels right into waiting scourge. Watch that first push against 3 o clock. Tell me with a straight face Sea didn't make any mistakes.

He is however in both leagues, and is playing overall quite well. I still think Leta would have been a better 10.

On December 16 2008 15:17 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:


you absolutely cannot afford not to irradiate defilers and ultralisks, and you have to do so before you engage or youre dead

the fact that jaedong scourged all of those vessels is a credit to jaedong, but in TvZ you have to use those irradiates whether you lose the vessels or not. against defiler tech you can't just charge a bunch of shit, you'll lose. With Sea's economy as strong as it was he can afford to lose those vessels, and its not like he lost a bunch of them unnecessarily. It was a long game, vessels are gonna die.

On December 15 2008 22:45 Geo.Rion wrote:



Glaring mistakes? I didnt see those. Sea vs jaedong was the best TvZ i've seen in a long time. Against FBH JD didnt play this well, he committed some really ugly mistakes in game 1, and in the second he reacted poorly to the bunker rush. BUt the game against Sea JD played briliantly, with a good build, awesome defiler control. Sea's multitasking was amazing, his macro was the factor what kept him in the game. And not only he beat Iris in a close game. Iris didnt played poorly. Sea's macro and multitasking was good. He stumped Hwasin too on the same map days later. AND HE'S IN BOTH LEAUGES! Pusan isnt. he failed both offliners. Loosing in one of them that's ok, in both, that's poor. Sea will met Leta soon so then the discussion will end.

Here many ppl were saying Flash for 1st/2nd spot, he would beat Stork or Bisu if they meet. I said, let's wait for the game, it will happen. Well it happened, he lost to Stork, and he will have to face Bisu too. So wait tilt Sea meets some of his "rivals".

On December 15 2008 21:38 raga4ka wrote:


If Pusan qualified for at least 1 league i would agree that he deserves PR more then Sea .

Then again i don't think that Sea and FBH should be here from what i've seen they are not the second best terrans after Flash .

Imo Leta has been fucking killing everyone in PL like Flash and he is in both leagues so far . And i've watched Mind's games this month and they are by far the most intelligent and impressive out of all terrans . And he actually wins TvP's like Flash does ....



Edit : + Show Spoiler +

On December 18 2008 10:57 bubblegumbo wrote:
sea definitely doesn't deserve to be in the top 10, and this is even before the
+ Show Spoiler +

It's hard to take Power Ranks seriously when there is such blatant bias. Anyone can make a biased Power Rank.

MVP FOR NO.10 HURRR!!

On December 18 2008 11:17 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:


it's not biased

i don't have the patience to go over this with some retard again

On December 18 2008 13:22 Dazed_Spy wrote:
Then why waste a fucking slot with Sea on it until hes proven some degree of consistency? It's not much of an accurate depiction of a players power when you KNOW that one player will fail miserably against ANYONE when push comes to shove.

On December 18 2008 14:12 Dazed_Spy wrote:
I don't dislike Sea. I just dislike Sea being considered a top ten player when he never was. His recent performances are like two or three games in PL. And thats all it EVER is, and thats all it EVER has been. No player deserves to go to fifth fucking spot like you gave Sea on numerous occasions, when they have done nothing in a big league, are known to do nothing in a big leauge, and are known to give one or two good games, and crash and burn the next day.

He'll, when you put pure on the rank a few months ago you even specifically stated you would not dream of putting him higher because he hasn't done anything in a league. What of Sea ffs? Its not like Sea's recent games was only the good games against Jaedong and Iris, he also crashed and burned in numerous games- like against Effort- in verrry recent memory.

People are bitching because you made the wrong choice in putting Sea on the PR- which is basically a theme of when you do power ranks in general tbh.